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 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 Therion wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 Therion wrote:

Can you deal with something like 80 Genestealers, heck, 100 Genestealers, charging you turn two? I really think people need to re-think how they army build. Everything can wound everything. You don't need to have anti-tank weapons everywhere. Hordes will be a thing.

You could also mix and match Imperial units in your army. I don't see many advantages in going with 1 faction when you could have guys from 10 Imperial factions in the same army. Take the best from all over.

Kastelans with Protector Protocols lobs 36 shots that hit on 4+, wound on 3+ and ignore their armor save. That is about 12 dead Genestealers per Kastelan squad in shooting.

Genestealers have a 5+ invulnerable save. They could also charge you turn one. I'm not impressed by those 36 shots. I really don't think you can deal with hordes at all. You could easily be facing 200 single wound models in many games.

Heck, 200 Brimstone Horrors with 4+ invulnerable saves only costs 400 points, and they'll be putting mortal wounds on you with Smite.

A 5++ isn't the end-all. They still will die pretty fast. And really, if anyone brings hordes like that, I will be absolutely shocked. It always sounds good on paper, but I have seen precious few in tourneys over the years. It takes too long to set-up, move, and resolve all those models.

Also, "you don't need to have anti-tank everywhere" is pretty short-sighted. You think Marines don't exist? Look at a Rhino and tell me we don't need antitank. Or a Land Raider.

And honestly, AdMech doesn't really strike me as a faction with the tools to handle huge hordes anyhow. Not that I am going to sweat them too much until I see them.

You need to remember a lot of things have changed. A T7 3+ vehicle like the Rhino dies to Bolters easier than Plague Marines do. The Bolter wounds both the Rhino and the Plague Marine on 5+, but the Plague Marines have their Disgustingly Resilient while the Rhino doesn't. So the Rhino is basically about 6 Plague Marines to the Bolters, not some incredible high toughness beast.

Guys posted all infantry IG shooty armies already in their tactics thread. 170 models or so and fifty+ heavy weapons and that's just for 1850 points.

People played Warhammer Fantasy with armies ranging from 100 to 350 models ALL the time. I've no doubt people can do that in 40K too. It's a new game.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not your enemy. I'm just challenging you to find a way to deal with hordes. It's a problem every army will face. The more multiwound models you have, the weaker you are to most of the special and heavy weapons in the game. If you keep yourself to W1 everywhere, all the excess damage is lost. Whenever possible, I'd avoid multiwound models altogether. They are a weakness, not a strength. Unless of course horribly underpriced.

Go back to my example of the Rhino and 6 Plague Marines being similarly survivable against bolters. Now, which one is more resistant to a lascannon? The Rhino will simply detonate, while the Plague Marines might not even lose a single wound. In fact, that's the maximum they can ever lose to the lascannon, AND they get a special save. This example isn't in any way to say Rhino is bad or Plague Marines are good, but to demonstrate the similarity in how small weapons fire affects them.

Food for thought.

I get where you are coming from, but I don't see it panning out practically.

Also, Warhammer Fantasy had movement trays. I used to run 200+ models and without trays it was not doable and even with them, I hated it.

As a former Guard player, I can tell you trying to run an army of 170 models will be tedious and, most likely, boring as hell. Most people want more toys than that and beyond a few dedicated TFGs, I doubt anyone will come packing a serious horde.

I am not saying your point isn't valid, I am just saying it doesn't seem real-world applicable.

Plus, as I said, AdMech have no real tools to combat hordes. The Kastelans are a solid option, honestly. They can crank out a good rate of fire for an AdMech unit and won't die too fast.

Do you have any food for thought on how AdMech can deal with hordes? If you want to toss out this worry, don't just do it and not help make a plan!

He's saving strats :p

rvd1ofakind wrote:
He's saving strats :p

Good one

No, I'm just as lost as you on the subject. I'd probably consider having some IG platoons there for the dirt cheap lasguns, wounds, and some extra heavy weapons too. I do admit that it sounds boring, especially as it's looking like the only real way to deal with hordes is to bring your own hordes.

When blasts and templates were nerfed to this D3 and D6 shots that you have to roll hits for, and there still remained 2 and 4 point models in the game, this was always a very likely outcome. How on earth will anyone ever mop up 200 wounds of 4+ inv Brimstone Horrors, while dealing with the other 1600 points of actual army, is beyond me. 5200 points of Tactical Marines with boltguns would only kill about 180 points worth of those Horrors single tapping their guns.

rvd1ofakind you are my favorite. thanks for making that word doc. Will use it to play fri!

 Therion wrote:

rvd1ofakind wrote:
He's saving strats :p

Good one

No, I'm just as lost as you on the subject. I'd probably consider having some IG platoons there for the dirt cheap lasguns, wounds, and some extra heavy weapons too. I do admit that it sounds boring, especially as it's looking like the only real way to deal with hordes is to bring your own hordes.

When blasts and templates were nerfed to this D3 and D6 shots that you have to roll hits for, and there still remained 2 and 4 point models in the game, this was always a very likely outcome.

Yeaaaaaaaaaa. The loss of templates was not handled well. The Thermal Cannon rules got it right, sorta. "When targeting units with 5 or more models...blah blah" should be on all formerly-blast weapons. Doubling the hit based on unit size is perfect and not present on nearly enough weapons.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 Therion wrote:

rvd1ofakind wrote:
He's saving strats :p

Good one

No, I'm just as lost as you on the subject. I'd probably consider having some IG platoons there for the dirt cheap lasguns, wounds, and some extra heavy weapons too. I do admit that it sounds boring, especially as it's looking like the only real way to deal with hordes is to bring your own hordes.

When blasts and templates were nerfed to this D3 and D6 shots that you have to roll hits for, and there still remained 2 and 4 point models in the game, this was always a very likely outcome.

Yeaaaaaaaaaa. The loss of templates was not handled well. The Thermal Cannon rules got it right, sorta. "When targeting units with 5 or more models...blah blah" should be on all formerly-blast weapons. Doubling the hit based on unit size is perfect and not present on nearly enough weapons.

A lot of units can counter that too by keeping the units small and just take huge numbers of those units. The more detachments the merrier.

Funnily enough, converting blasts to D6 shots helped hordes in another critical way too. You can have your models right next to each other, in fact you can even make movement trays for them if you want to, because there's no danger in stacking up and getting 20 hits from a single ordnance template. It's a lot easier to move them when you don't need to spread out.

Some people will definately make shooty armies that have 200 wounds of bubble wrap in front, or assault armies that roll over the table in an endless horde. It'll be really weird.

I do think Brimstone Horrors are pretty insane. A unit of 10 costs just 20 points, and they got 10 wounds with 4+ invulnerable saves, and on a 5+ to manifest they can do D3 mortal wounds on you. For comparison, a Rubric Marine with Inferno Boltgun costs 20 points. Should you take one wound, or ten for the same price? The ranged offensive kill potential is probably about the same overall ^_^ In fight phase the Horrors have 20 attacks that hit on 5+ and wound on 6+ against anything. They do 1.11 wounds against anything (for 20 points), which is a lot more than what the Rubric Marine can do.

Some of this stuff is so messed up

Just when I was getting excited for this edition... the flaws start to come out. And between AdMech getting hit with the nerfbat and gutted of unique rules and this horde revelation, it is not easy to get too excited. Might just focus on Narrative play, honestly. At least then I can have fun. Matched seems like it is going to be really boring and skewed hard.

The only upside is that GW has shown it will work to fix issues. Hence the GH v2. Maybe this stuff will get a prompt FAQ even. Who knows.

str00dles1 wrote:
rvd1ofakind you are my favorite. thanks for making that word doc. Will use it to play fri!

Yay :> GL
I'm making the base rules now, excluding all the fluff and the obvious stuff. Who doesn't know what a roll-off or a re-roll is, srsly -.- And do they have to explain that roll-offs are the only thing where you can reroll a dice more than once if you 2 get a tie. Like wut xD

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Just when I was getting excited for this edition... the flaws start to come out. And between AdMech getting hit with the nerfbat and gutted of unique rules and this horde revelation, it is not easy to get too excited. Might just focus on Narrative play, honestly. At least then I can have fun. Matched seems like it is going to be really boring and skewed hard.

The only upside is that GW has shown it will work to fix issues. Hence the GH v2. Maybe this stuff will get a prompt FAQ even. Who knows.

I'm in your boat. I was planning on starting a fresh army for 8th, but once I realized what I'm up against, I have a very hard time coming up with a competitive list that I'd enjoy buying and painting. I was thinking about a list with something like 200 to 300 Horrors, and all the rest of the points in Obliterators and/or Terminators. Horrors go on the table and everything else teleport alpha strikes on one flank and annihilates it when they enter play. Magnus could lead the force since he'll turn one charge and can deal with anything.

Yet, that wasn't really what I was thinking when I got excited about 8th edition ^_^ I thought they were going to make balanced lists (Couple vehicles, some infantry, couple heroes, couple monsters) competitive, but I guess that was a fool's hope ^_^

But we digress. Good luck boys with constructing competitive AdMech lists!

Forgot to say, we need to wait for the Forgeworld Indexes to leak. I haven't seen them anywhere. All that stuff is perfectly legal and there's a lot of stuff there that could be solutions to problems.

 Therion wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Just when I was getting excited for this edition... the flaws start to come out. And between AdMech getting hit with the nerfbat and gutted of unique rules and this horde revelation, it is not easy to get too excited. Might just focus on Narrative play, honestly. At least then I can have fun. Matched seems like it is going to be really boring and skewed hard.

The only upside is that GW has shown it will work to fix issues. Hence the GH v2. Maybe this stuff will get a prompt FAQ even. Who knows.

I'm in your boat. I was planning on starting a fresh army for 8th, but once I realized what I'm up against, I have a very hard time coming up with a competitive list that I'd enjoy buying and painting. I was thinking about a list with something like 200 to 300 Horrors, and all the rest of the points in Obliterators and/or Terminators. Horrors go on the table and everything else teleport alpha strikes on one flank and annihilates it when they enter play. Magnus could lead the force since he'll turn one charge and can deal with anything.

Yet, that wasn't really what I was thinking when I got excited about 8th edition ^_^ I thought they were going to make balanced lists (Couple vehicles, some infantry, couple heroes, couple monsters) competitive, but I guess that was a fool's hope ^_^

But we digress. Good luck boys with constructing competitive AdMech lists!

Forgot to say, we need to wait for the Forgeworld Indexes to leak. I haven't seen them anywhere. All that stuff is perfectly legal and there's a lot of stuff there that could be solutions to problems.

A "lot" though? What else is there apart from the Big Ass Lazor and Skitarii converts

rvd1ofakind wrote:

 Therion wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Just when I was getting excited for this edition... the flaws start to come out. And between AdMech getting hit with the nerfbat and gutted of unique rules and this horde revelation, it is not easy to get too excited. Might just focus on Narrative play, honestly. At least then I can have fun. Matched seems like it is going to be really boring and skewed hard.

The only upside is that GW has shown it will work to fix issues. Hence the GH v2. Maybe this stuff will get a prompt FAQ even. Who knows.

I'm in your boat. I was planning on starting a fresh army for 8th, but once I realized what I'm up against, I have a very hard time coming up with a competitive list that I'd enjoy buying and painting. I was thinking about a list with something like 200 to 300 Horrors, and all the rest of the points in Obliterators and/or Terminators. Horrors go on the table and everything else teleport alpha strikes on one flank and annihilates it when they enter play. Magnus could lead the force since he'll turn one charge and can deal with anything.

Yet, that wasn't really what I was thinking when I got excited about 8th edition ^_^ I thought they were going to make balanced lists (Couple vehicles, some infantry, couple heroes, couple monsters) competitive, but I guess that was a fool's hope ^_^

But we digress. Good luck boys with constructing competitive AdMech lists!

Forgot to say, we need to wait for the Forgeworld Indexes to leak. I haven't seen them anywhere. All that stuff is perfectly legal and there's a lot of stuff there that could be solutions to problems.

A "lot" though? What else is there apart from the Big Ass Lazor and Skitarii converts

Everything with <Imperial> keyword. Might not be AdMech, but if it gets the job done...

You guys have weird metas at your FLGs, people rarely come in with 200+ models at mine :/ Except in AoS maybe, and even then nobody plays against them. You can can expect 60-80 Necrons Warriors blobs now though, but they will not charge you I think. Don't forget you have to find a spot in the Detachment for each of them, if they're units of 10 that's 20 Troops choice you'll have to fit with enough HQs to fill the mandatory choices. Remember morale, I don't know how it affects Daemons and Genestealer Cults but they'll lose a good chunk of their guys with each salvo because of the Battleshock tests.

Of course I'm not omniscient but that's how I see it. Anyway I don't know a lot of guys who will find it fun to buy, assemble, paint, bring to the table and then manoeuver 200 models. I want to have fun too when I'm playing, if I see someone running such boring lists I'll try to battle him once maybe and that's it, I love variety on the battlefield.

The rulebook advises people who organise tournaments to include a limit to the number of Detachments allowed per points level, I can see it really be used in the tournament scene to limit such horrors.

I still believe you'll have to get a balanced army with anti-infantry power, and a good chunk of anti-tank/MC weapons too.

rvd1ofakind wrote:


A "lot" though? What else is there apart from the Big Ass Lazor and Skitarii converts

Ulator maybe? :/

I think the addition of giant blob units are being a bit overexagerated. Sure they're big units of guys, but as soon as they start dieing, they start dieing a lot, only takes a few for them to start failing their morale checks and having even more guys running away

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
I think the addition of giant blob units are being a bit overexagerated. Sure they're big units of guys, but as soon as they start dieing, they start dieing a lot, only takes a few for them to start failing their morale checks and having even more guys running away

Excluding Tyranids, who are essentially immune via Synapse.

There is at least one horde army at my FLGS. There's a guy that runs an ork horde with about 170 models. I've seen him a few times, so he's not a one off player. Most of the other regulars run smaller lists but the meta is a mix, so I'd need to have a list that can handle a wide range.

There's a Tua gunline, mixed Eldar ie some jet bikes and exarch types but no WK, GK character blob psychers of doom with 2 of the GK walkers, a Chaos guy that seems to play balanced lists, and a BA player that plays fairly balanced lists as well.

A lot will change with 8th, but I haven't played more than 5 games since 4th, so my thoughts are limited right now. I have no practical experience...

I'm building Ad Mech from scratch and my overall thoughts right now are infantry spam (I used to run foot guard). I have 60 Skitarii that I plan to build out as 20 rangers and 40 vanguard. I'll have 6 of each SW mixed in, rangers get all 6 TA. I don't know how many troops I'll use when I start list building yet though, nor how I run them ie groups of 10 or 5, or a mix.

Heavy support I have covered, right now, with up to 6 dunecrawlers and 2 kastellans. I picked up a couple of boxes of electro priests for CC, hope they don't completely suck, lol. Lastly I have 3 walkers, I thought I'd build dragoons but I'm not sure what I'll do with them yet.

I'll add more stuff when I have an idea of what I may need or models that I like after I get a few games in and all the current stuff built and painted.

I did hear a rumor from a local GW store manager that Ad Mech will be getting transports. My guess is there will be some new stuff when the Ad Mech codex drops...

Rumor is the next Imperial Armor book will give us access to the 30k transports

But who knows when.

As for nids, gotta Arquebus those synapse guys.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
I think the addition of giant blob units are being a bit overexagerated. Sure they're big units of guys, but as soon as they start dieing, they start dieing a lot, only takes a few for them to start failing their morale checks and having even more guys running away

Excluding Tyranids, who are essentially immune via Synapse.

And excluding Horrors, who come in units of 10, and simply don't care if one or two runs away since they cost 2 points a pop

One note on the sheet, it is pointed out wrong.

Units that state they come with gear don't cost the gear points.

Just as an example, Tech Priest comes with the Axe, Volkite Blaster and Macrostubber for 125. Anything else he can take that replaces costs points.

In the sheet on here, it says hes 135 base instead of 125. Little error but worth pointing out.

The biggest reason why I never see horde armies in my local meta is because nobody want to waste 30 minutes or more just moving their army.

But for 8th if you do find yourself against horde armies, then I still think that Kastelans and Vanguards are your best shot. Kastelans can pump out a ton of shots and Vanguards are still rocking that assault 3 weapon.
Sure they lost their addition wound on a 6 for a 2 damage possibility, but they still got a decent amount of firepower. Infiltrators also have a lot of shots, their pistols crank out 5 shots of S3, that is enough against most horde armies to kill some models.
I think the best bet we got as pure admech versus horde, is to rely on vanguards, kastelans and taser weapons. Then you have enough shots to diminish an horde army at a decent rate. Stuff like the Dunecrawler are in these situation better used to pick out the big non-character guys.
Also the Arquebus is a very solid weapon to get ridd of those 4 to 6 wound characters that buff nearby unit. Put two or four of those in your army and you will take out a character per turn.

str00dles1 wrote:
One note on the sheet, it is pointed out wrong.

Units that state they come with gear don't cost the gear points.

Just as an example, Tech Priest comes with the Axe, Volkite Blaster and Macrostubber for 125. Anything else he can take that replaces costs points.

In the sheet on here, it says hes 135 base instead of 125. Little error but worth pointing out.

"Does not include wargear"

Base cost of the Dominus is his cost + his wargear, meaning 135pt base.

str00dles1 wrote:One note on the sheet, it is pointed out wrong.

Units that state they come with gear don't cost the gear points.

Just as an example, Tech Priest comes with the Axe, Volkite Blaster and Macrostubber for 125. Anything else he can take that replaces costs points.

In the sheet on here, it says hes 135 base instead of 125. Little error but worth pointing out.

I'm sorry I don't think I understood you, you think the model's price shown in the Index is including the gear described in it's datasheet ? Because I think you're wrong then, or else why would they show the points value of their stock weapons ? That would mean one Kastelan Robot, with its fists and Incendine Combustor would only cost 65 points instead of 65 + 35 + 21 = 121 ? No don't think so, they specifically included the prices of the gear separately to balance them if needed over time.

If that's not what you meant sorry, but I think I understood you well.

Arlen wrote:The biggest reason why I never see horde armies in my local meta is because nobody want to waste 30 minutes or more just moving their army.

But for 8th if you do find yourself against horde armies, then I still think that Kastelans and Vanguards are your best shot. Kastelans can pump out a ton of shots and Vanguards are still rocking that assault 3 weapon.
Sure they lost their addition wound on a 6 for a 2 damage possibility, but they still got a decent amount of firepower. Infiltrators also have a lot of shots, their pistols crank out 5 shots of S3, that is enough against most horde armies to kill some models.
I think the best bet we got as pure admech versus horde, is to rely on vanguards, kastelans and taser weapons. Then you have enough shots to diminish an horde army at a decent rate. Stuff like the Dunecrawler are in these situation better used to pick out the big non-character guys.
Also the Arquebus is a very solid weapon to get ridd of those 4 to 6 wound characters that buff nearby unit. Put two or four of those in your army and you will take out a character per turn.

Yes, the fact that the Infiltrators can shoot 5 times while in melee at S3 is significant, as you can split each shot in the same unit you're fighting, with a full luck you can bring down 3-4 regular GEQ in one shot of the Blaster, looks powerful.

Going to play my actual 5 man 2 Arquebii squad split in two, with two 5 man squads with 1 Arquebus each, so I can cover each side of the terrain. On a 6+ to Wound you can pull off 3 Damage + 1 Mortal Wound in one shot, looks nice enough to me, even against vehicles.

My FLGS has already planned a gaming session against the staff a few days after launch, at 1000 pts, to try it out. Here's what I'll bring, using WYSIWYG models I already own.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:
One note on the sheet, it is pointed out wrong.

Units that state they come with gear don't cost the gear points.

Just as an example, Tech Priest comes with the Axe, Volkite Blaster and Macrostubber for 125. Anything else he can take that replaces costs points.

In the sheet on here, it says hes 135 base instead of 125. Little error but worth pointing out.

"Does not include wargear"

Base cost of the Dominus is his cost + his wargear, meaning 135pt base.

Where does it say that?

str00dles1 wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:
One note on the sheet, it is pointed out wrong.

Units that state they come with gear don't cost the gear points.

Just as an example, Tech Priest comes with the Axe, Volkite Blaster and Macrostubber for 125. Anything else he can take that replaces costs points.

In the sheet on here, it says hes 135 base instead of 125. Little error but worth pointing out.

"Does not include wargear"

Base cost of the Dominus is his cost + his wargear, meaning 135pt base.

Where does it say that?

Under the points section, "Points Per Model" and under that in parenthesis it says "Does not include wargear".

Thank you! my mistake then, I have a lot more points then I thought!

str00dles1 wrote:
One note on the sheet, it is pointed out wrong.

Units that state they come with gear don't cost the gear points.

Just as an example, Tech Priest comes with the Axe, Volkite Blaster and Macrostubber for 125. Anything else he can take that replaces costs points.

In the sheet on here, it says hes 135 base instead of 125. Little error but worth pointing out.

Its not an error, the sheets are made with the purpose of using its power level for narrative or open play

When you're playing matched, you start with the base unit and add points on including what it comes standard with

Model points other than characters include no weapons/upgrades

Right. Canticles. It is a bit annoying that you got to have a pure Ad Mech detachment to use them, no other faction (I think) has similar limitations.

Anyhow, as the fledgling Ad Mech army I started to to build during the seventh edition was a Skitarii force, I don't have a Dominus. Guess i need to get one... What are people's opinions on Dominus' weapon options? Macrostubber seems way better than the serpenta to me, but I'm not sure about the volkite and the eradication ray.

Right. Canticles. It is a bit annoying that you got to have a pure Ad Mech detachment to use them, no other faction (I think) has similar limitations.

Anyhow, as the fledgling Ad Mech army I started to to build during the seventh edition was a Skitarii force, I don't have a Dominus. Guess i need to get one... What are people's opinions on Dominus' weapon options? Macrostubber seems way better than the serpenta to me, but I'm not sure about the volkite and the eradication ray.

For the dominus I'm liking the volkite. It's a little cheaper and it's more consistent. The lack of AP sucks, but being able to reliably get 3 shots is better than 1-3 (or 1-6 if within 8"). I don't want to get the dominus too close to melee if I can help it, so the 8" part of the eradication ray concerns me a little.

As far as dealing with hordes goes, Servitors might be able to provide some efficient anti-infantry. Servitors only cost 2 points per model, as long as they're near a techpriest (all of the AdMech HQs are techpriests, so that's easy) they basically have a Guardsman statline with a 4+ save, not a bad deal for 2 points.

Then, for every 4 Servitors you take, 2 of them can take a Heavy Bolter. Think of it as a 4-point heavy weapons team with a 10 point HB, so 14 points for each HB team. Slightly more expensive than an IG HB team, but only because the IG HB is 8 points, and you can use the servo-arm Servitor as an ablative wound.

A Dunecrawler with an Icarus Array might be an all-around good deal too. Sure, it's intended to be an anti-air weapon, but 10 shots at BS3 with three different but decent stat lines is pretty okay against ground targets too. Not bad for 130 points, especially since taking them in pairs would let them re-roll their invuln save.

Dealing with hordes is definitely something AdMech will have to work hard on though. The vast majority of their armory is pretty much anti-tank. I do note though that the Canticles restriction only applies to detachments, so you can bring allies and still use Canticles as long as they're in separate detachments. Imperial Guard are probably a good choice for this: they can fill up secondary detachments cheaply, and can bring some much-needed dakka to the table.