Tactica Mechanicus 2.0 - ++DEPRECATED++

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**Aaranis**

For dealing with hordes Kastelan Robots with Incendine Combustors and twin Heavy Phosphor Blasters look nice, and a Cognis Flamer on your Kataphron Destroyers seems to be the best choice now. Flamers have an even better overwatch now, that can help. Vanguards still shoot a lot, and as said previously Dunecrawlers have a few good weapons for hordes, take a look at the Icarus Array who in my personal opinion is utterly devastating (goodbye flying units), or the twin Heavy Phosphor Blaster who's looking really good too.

Don't know about you but with the buff of the Techpriest Dominus that allows rerolls I think I'll surround him with a 5 man squad of 2 Plasma Calivers shooting at Overcharge all day. With the decrease in cost of the Arc weaponry I'll have a small squad with 2 Arc Rifles and Arc Pistol + Arc Maul combo too.

Watch out, the Techpriest Enginseer is not an HQ, it's an Elite choice. We're stuck with needing Belisarius Cawl or multiple Techpriests Dominus if we want to make more than a Patrol Detachment and keep our Cantics. I don't want to run 2-3 absolutely identical models in my army :/

**ross-128**

Yeah, it is unfortunate that the only HQ options are Cawl or Dominus, both of which ain't cheap. The point with the servitors comment though was that Cawl and Dominus both count as Techpriests, so at least having someone around to keep servitors on target will never be a problem, because Dominus is a mandatory pick anyway.

**Aaranis**

Or there's the simpler option where you pick whatever Imperium HQ you want, effectively trading Canticles for Stratagems... It's an option, but there's some good stuff in the Canticles. Litany of the Electromancer looks really nice. I don't know if the trade-off is worth it, we have to consider that there are more stratagems in some missions, so having more Command Points might be worth it.

That would greatly simplify my list building too :')

**rvd1ofakind**

ross-128 wrote:
As far as dealing with hordes goes, Servitors might be able to provide some efficient anti-infantry. Servitors only cost 2 points per model, as long as they're near a techpriest (all of the AdMech HQs are techpriests, so that's easy) they basically have a Guardsman statline with a 4+ save, not a bad deal for 2 points.

Then, for every 4 Servitors you take, 2 of them can take a Heavy Bolter. Think of it as a 4-point heavy weapons team with a 10 point HB, so 14 points for each HB team. Slightly more expensive than an IG HB team, but only because the IG HB is 8 points, and you can use the servo-arm Servitor as an ablative wound.

A Dunecrawler with an Icarus Array might be an all-around good deal too. Sure, it's intended to be an anti-air weapon, but 10 shots at BS3 with three different but decent stat lines is pretty okay against ground targets too. Not bad for 130 points, especially since taking them in pairs would let them re-roll their invuln save.

Dealing with hordes is definitely something AdMech will have to work hard on though. The vast majority of their armory is pretty much anti-tank. I do note though that the Canticles restriction only applies to detachments, so you can bring allies and still use Canticles as long as they're in separate detachments. Imperial Guard are probably a good choice for this: they can fill up secondary detachments cheaply, and can bring some much-needed dakka to the table.

Sadly servitors are f'd with the 12 pts servo-arm. So 28 points of crap + 4 + 2 weapons of choice

Either way, I think we shouls at least somewhat focus on the fact that Tech-Priests are all healers now and bring almost all multi-wound models.

**Gak Attack**

Assuming characters do end up being important, and character assassination is a good tactic against them, what do you think of the radium jezzail vs the transuranic arquebus?

TA has longer range, but can't move and shoot, whereas RJ can move and shoot.. just not super well. Max damage output is the same but with 2 shots the average should be smoother. However, it will be a bit easier to wound with TA due to increased S and AP.

Durability I would think the dragoons win, point for point. In a 5 man squad of rangers there would be 3 ablative wounds and 2 TA carriers for 100 points, versus 108 points for 2 dragoons each with an RJ, which each have 6 W at T6, AND -1 to hit them.

I've been seeing a lot of people float around lascannon balistari and was wondering why not the RJ dragoon?

Thoughts?

**Aaranis**

rvd1ofakind wrote:
Sadly servitors are f'd with the 12 pts servo-arm. So 28 points of crap + 4 + 2 weapons of choice

Either way, I think we shouls at least somewhat focus on the fact that Tech-Priests are all healers now and bring almost all multi-wound models.

Yeah I can see small groups spread on the table, one Techpriest Dominus surrounded by some Skitarii for the rerolls, and a pair of Kastelan Robots could benefit from it too. Keep one Onager or two close to repair them, and leave the Robots for the Datasmith. The Techpriest Enginseer could support another group like that, albeit he doesn't buff anyone he can still repair for free.

Gak Attack wrote:
Assuming characters do end up being important, and character assassination is a good tactic against them, what do you think of the radium jezzail vs the transuranic arquebus?

TA has longer range, but can't move and shoot, whereas RJ can move and shoot.. just not super well. Max damage output is the same but with 2 shots the average should be smoother. However, it will be a bit easier to wound with TA due to increased S and AP.

Durability I would think the dragoons win, point for point. In a 5 man squad of rangers there would be 3 ablative wounds and 2 TA carriers for 100 points, versus 108 points for 2 dragoons each with an RJ, which each have 6 W at T6, AND -1 to hit them.

I've been seeing a lot of people float around lascannon balistari and was wondering why not the RJ dragoon?

Thoughts?

I believe you should use both in reasonable proportions. The Arquebus is still expensive and requires careful placement now as it's unusable when you're moving, you should deploy the closest possible to a nice bird nest. If you're using a single squad of two Arquebii you could use the Dragoon to cover the parts where you can't go. I'd take them in pairs at least so it doesn't immediately die, and to pump out more shots obviously. They still benefit from cover while moving so, 3+ save !

**axisofentropy**

Four Kastellan robbits, all phosphor, in the immobile shooty config, standing next to Cawl yeilds 72 S6 shots, average 54 hits on four different targets. Check my math, but I think that removes all 24 Wounds from a Knight or Wraithknight.

**em_en_oh_pee**

axisofentropy wrote:
Four Kastellan robbits, all phosphor, in the immobile shooty config, standing next to Cawl yeilds 72 S6 shots, average 54 hits on four different targets. Check my math, but I think that removes all 24 Wounds from a Knight or Wraithknight.

We aren't exactly sweating Knights, thanks to the Balistarii and Crawlers. Still good to know that maths out somewhat nicely. I am going to have to grab more Robots (and alt heads) soon. They look like our new faction workhorse.

What I like is that 54 hits equates to about 23 dead Genestealers, which is a pressing concern. They will be in our face on T1 and assaulting us T2 (though some rare few will even assault T1). We need to be able to fend off those hordes.

How are we going to deal with the Guard Horde? That has me sweating a bit. Hundreds of Guardsmen with dozens of HWTs and special weapons. Seems like the Robots are a good answer again, but we lose in a shooting war with Guard.

**Aaranis**

I think everyone loses in shooting against a dedicated Guard army

The answer ? Assault. Get Sicarian Infiltrators and/or Fulgurite Electro-Priests and they'll fall like FLIES. Seriously on light armoured units like this you'll kill them so much they won't be alive. With the -1 malus in Ld given by the Infiltrators you'll just have to take care of the Commissars beforehand (Snipers exist for a reason) and you'll have even more dead due to Morale. Really we got buffed in CC too you have to realise it, Infiltrators are damn cheaper (130 pts instead of 185 with Tasers), can just pop up at 9", shoot 25 times at S3, and then they might get a charge if lucky (use CP if needed) and there, a dead unit. You might even wipe out a unit just with the Flechette Blasters and Battleshock. Kastelans can be used too, they can absorb some puny Lasguns and even if some wound you can reflect them in Mortal Wounds. Fulgurite Electro-Priests deal Mortal Wounds all day and when they'll wipe that 10 man unit (no more blobs btw) they'll have a 3++.

I'll have a game tomorrow at my Warhammer store, 1350 points of pure Mechanicus VS Chaos. I'll tell you how it goes

I already have another one at 1250 pts against Necrons on Wednesday too.

**bortass**

What size unit would people run Fulgrites in? I have a couple of boxes of them, so plan to field a unit of 10 once I get stuff built and painted.

**Aaranis**

I wouldn't go to big units of 20 because of the way Battleshock works, you'll be better with units of 10-15 to keep a strength in numbers while not losing 10 models to a few shots + 6 to Battleshock.

EDIT: Wondering about the Corpuscarii now, they could be nice anti-hordes too, they pack 3 Tesla shots at 3+ with S5, and their 12" range can be mitigated by Advancing and shooting, as their weapons are Assault they'll still hit on 4+. I think the Fulgurites are more useful still, we already have plenty of nice shooting with better range.

**em_en_oh_pee**

bortass wrote:
What size unit would people run Fulgrites in? I have a couple of boxes of them, so plan to field a unit of 10 once I get stuff built and painted.

Unit size? Zero. Throw those ugly models in the trash!

**rvd1ofakind**

Tactica doesn't care how models look as long as they're good in-game.

Added Knights and Assassins to the Rules Summary
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0By4SQd_H1eW8RVZpUTE4NnFZYm8

Speaking of which, doesn't the Infiltrate 3D6 assasin look good to tie up the best shooting unit in the opponents army?

**Verviedi**

Here's some indepth analysis on Ruststalker Blades vs. Claw/Razors. The gap is definitely nearly closed.

Furious Charge was removed, and Blades wound T4 models on 3+ as opposed to a 4+ for the Razor/Claw.

Blades wound T8 models (majority of large MCs and vehicles) on a 5+ instead of 6+, and T5 models on a 4+ instead of 5+.

Against T6-T7 models, R/Cs and Blades wound on the same number.

Against Space Marines, with 2x Transonic Blades and using the Princeps Chordclaw.

Spoiler:

Against Marines, with Transonic Razor/Chordclaw.

Spoiler:

Against Marines, with Razors/Chordclaws, with a Princeps with Transonic Blades and using his Chordclaw.

Spoiler:

Final Statement -

Transonic Blades with the Princeps Chordclaw do 3.627 damage (1.757 from failed saves, 1.87 from mortal wounds) to Space Marines.

Transonic Razor/Chordclaws do 3.88 damage (1.578 from failed saves, 2.310 from mortal wounds) to Space Marines.

Transonic Razors/Chordclaw, with Blades on the Princeps does 3.952 damage (1.642 from failed saves, 2.31 from mortal wounds) to Space Marines.

**casvalremdeikun**

You forgot to figure in the fact the Princeps still has a Chord Claw when he has Transonic Blades. The optimal loadout is the Princeps with Transonic Blades and a Chordclaw, and everyone else having a Transonic Razor and a Chordclaw.

Also, there is no +1 attack on the charge anymore.

**Verviedi**

Oh,

. Time to do a ton of math all over again.

Damage tiers are as follows.

[REDACTED]

**casvalremdeikun**

Verviedi wrote:
Oh, . Time to do a ton of math all over again.

Damage tiers are as follows.

1. Razor/Chordclaw with the Princeps having Blades.
2. Blades, with the Princeps using his Chordclaw.
3. Razor/Chordclaw.
4. Pure Blades.

#4 is not possible. A Princeps can only trade away his Razor for two Blades. He always has a Chordclaw.

**Verviedi**

Your avatar is starting to feel more and more like a personal statement

Done. Finally. Order is

1. Razor/Claw with Princeps Blades.
2. Razor/Claw.
3. Blades with Princeps Blade Claw.

And for some reason Blades cost more.

**casvalremdeikun**

Verviedi wrote:
Your avatar is starting to feel more and more like a personal statement

Done. Finally. Order is

1. Razor/Claw with Princeps Blades.
2. Razor/Claw.
3. Blades.

And for some reason Blades cost more.

sorry, I wasn't clear, the only way for the Princeps to have blades is if he has Blades AND a Chordclaw. He can't take just blades. So in your original assessment, it would go as follows:

1. R/C, Blade Claw Princeps
2. Blades and Blade Claw Princeps
3. R/C on all

**Verviedi**

Ah, yes, I did understand that, I just forgot to add "+Princeps blade claw". The lower number of attacks seriously hurt the damage output of Blades + Blade Claw, making it the least effective loadout. Really a shame, because Blades look so cool.

**casvalremdeikun**

Verviedi wrote:
Ah, yes, I did understand that, I just forgot to add "+Princeps blade claw". The lower number of attacks seriously hurt the damage output of Blades + Blade Claw, making it the least effective loadout. Really a shame, because Blades look so cool.

Regardless, the difference between the types is not terribly significant, but the R/C+Bladeclaw Princeps is the way to go.

I didn't notice that you had been editing the math post above.

**em_en_oh_pee**

This is a surprise! I thought for sure blades would be better for the +1S. Huh.

**casvalremdeikun**

em_en_oh_pee wrote:
This is a surprise! I thought for sure blades would be better for the +1S. Huh.

Nope, the Chordclaw really mucks the math up. If it was two Razors vs. two Blades, the blades would win, but the Chordclaw changes things. However, the Blades are obviously better when taken with a claw, so a Princeps should always have Blades.

**Gak Attack**

Of course, all of that math is only versus T4 right? '

How do we feel about the loadout in general? Or would T4 be the target... targets for the ruststalkers, and leave higher toughness enemies to the dunecrawlers and balistari?

**rvd1ofakind**

Are you guys missing the fact that for some stupid reason blades are more expensive?

**Verviedi**

Nope, I touched on it briefly. Blades are just in a terrible position in general.

Gak Attack wrote:
Of course, all of that math is only versus T4 right? '

How do we feel about the loadout in general? Or would T4 be the target... targets for the ruststalkers, and leave higher toughness enemies to the dunecrawlers and balistari?

I'd say Ruststalkers go for elite units, and Infiltrators go for chaff, because Infiltrators put out more hits, but Ruststalkers put out better hits.

**casvalremdeikun**

rvd1ofakind wrote:
Are you guys missing the fact that for some stupid reason blades are more expensive?

Nope, which is why only the Princeps gets Blades.

**rvd1ofakind**

casvalremdeikun wrote:
rvd1ofakind wrote:
Are you guys missing the fact that for some stupid reason blades are more expensive?
Nope, which is why only the Princeps gets Blades.

Might as well just get another model instead :/ Blades just seem bad for the cost. Also, what about the assassins, guys :x

3x Cullexus - you just place him 9'' from the Psyker and let rip - dead Psyker turn 1 or use him as a battery to kill a more imporant unit
3x Everson - you place them 9'' from the strongest shooting (and usually weakest Melee) unit and charge with 3D6. Your opponent can't use 3 of his most powerful shooting units turn 1 and has to deal with the assassins.
Here are the rules to them, knights and admech btw

dey good, tho

**Aaranis**

I'll do my first V8 game in a few hours, 1350 points vs Chaos, mostly Daemon Princes. The list I'll use, almost full WYSIWYG:

Spoiler:

I really dislike the limitations we have on our HQ choices, for now I'm stuck with 3 Troops choices while I want to play MSU, and I'll have to spam Techpriests Dominus if I want to go bigger AND keep my Canticles.

Also I don't like the idea that you can use as many Assassins as you want, I don't know feels like cheating to me

Not really lore-friendly too. The cool thing about Sisters of Silence and Culexus is that is protects your units from Psykers spamming Smite as they have to target the closest, and they are immune to it.

**rvd1ofakind**

Get Cawl? He's awesome. I got multiple Dominus'es thanks to the Start Collecting boxes

BTW, in order to complete the 6 Kastelan attack on turn two you will need on average 6 minutes:
Take 40 dice, roll, re-roll, count, take 40 dice, roll, re-roll, count, count and take 28 dice, roll, re-roll, count. Oh boy. My to hit is done.
82 to wound. Take 40 dice, roll, count, take 40 dice, roll, take 2 dice, roll
50 to save. take 40 dice, roll, count, count 10 dice, roll, count.

GW... WHAT. WERE. YOU. THINKING?!