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2017/06/07 15:02:04
Subject: Tactica Mechanicus 2.0 - Deus Est Machina! - 8th Edition Initiation
That's actually an excellent question em. I looked at it this way. Given the construction of the army... it's a) unlikely that any unit that suffers morale will be within 3" of the dunecrawlers... b) the skitarii shooting units already have their own data tether and c) while not terribly useful... the smoke is free.
That being said I did see that the dune crawlers actually have a morale value. Not knowing how morale affects vehicles I didn't realize this was something I should be concerned about. I should re-think that. Thanks em!
No prob. Just so much new stuff to consider this edition. Both items are free, I believe, but you have to pick one.
WrentheFaceless wrote:Knights are crazy good this edition
I have heard a broad range of critique on them, including that they die pretty easy and/or fast. So, has anyone played with them specifically and seen good/bad results? What is your experience Wren?
Gitsplitta wrote: So, after reading and considering I've come up with the following based on what I've already got painted and what people seem to like. I was hoping for some suggestions on how to fill it in.
Spoiler:
I'm using whatever formation is basically the old CAD.
HQ: Cawl
TP: 10 rangers, 3 arquebii, onmispex, enhanced dt TP: 10 vanguard, 3 plasma caliver, enhanced dt, arc maul
EL: cybernetica data smith
EL: cybernetica data smith
EL?: 5x infiltrators (tazer/flachette)
HV: 4 kastellan robots (all guns)
HV: onager dunecrawler (Icarus), smoke, cognis heavy stubber
HV: onager dunecrawler (Icarus), smoke, cognis heavy stubber
Now if I've done my math right... that comes out to 1367 pts (no guarantees on the math).
There are some options... I could replace the Icarus Arrays with Neutron Lasers for example, I could split the skitarii troops into 2 units, or vary the special weapons in the skitarii units, etc.
Minor tweaks aside, I am hoping for some suggestions as to how to bring it up to 2000 pts. I have...
Don't take units of 10 skitarii. Take units of 5. Omnispex and Datatether can't be both equiped. And they are both bad anyway. Omnispex used to be good when cover was a seperate save and datatether is not needed in units of 5. You also get an aditional captain in units of five and generic troop.
Datasmiths aren't good. Only need 1 to switch the modes and then go die or something :p
Get at least 1 Neutron. Melee weapons on Troops are usually bad. But this edition you might take the cheapest one because of turn 1 charges.
You must add another dominus and split at least one of the troops. Then get the Crusader knight in. Maybe some dragoons.
That's actually an excellent question em. I looked at it this way. Given the construction of the army... it's a) unlikely that any unit that suffers morale will be within 3" of the dunecrawlers... b) the skitarii shooting units already have their own data tether and c) while not terribly useful... the smoke is free.
That being said I did see that the dune crawlers actually have a morale value. Not knowing how morale affects vehicles I didn't realize this was something I should be concerned about. I should re-think that. Thanks em!
No prob. Just so much new stuff to consider this edition. Both items are free, I believe, but you have to pick one.
WrentheFaceless wrote:Knights are crazy good this edition
I have heard a broad range of critique on them, including that they die pretty easy and/or fast. So, has anyone played with them specifically and seen good/bad results? What is your experience Wren?
My result was him taking out 150 pts of units in just his single Gattling Cannon volley. So yeah. I'm fn keeping him. He killed almost 1000 pts of units BY HIMSELF.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/07 15:17:30
I'll be honest.. I'm not really seeing why the PC is so much better than heavy grav on the destroyers. It's only 3 points more expensive, and while admittedly you don't get as good strength it's decently high and, you KNOW you're going to get 5 shots out of each one.
2017/06/07 16:17:40
Subject: Re:Tactica Mechanicus 2.0 - Deus Est Machina! - 8th Edition Initiation
why cant he shoot volkite and stubber in same turn? You can shoot all range weapons in a turn.
Macrostubber is a Pistol, and you must choose to shoot pistol or non-pistol weapons. I was disappointed. ~ NINJA'd
I'm not sure I see the point in MSUing the Skitarii. Any models can hold obj now, and its based upon per model. They can all split shots. The opponent can also split shots, so its not really an increase to survivability. If anything, I see it diluting your deployment phase, perhaps? But that might be a detriment to go first.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/07 16:21:19
2017/06/07 16:56:16
Subject: Re:Tactica Mechanicus 2.0 - Deus Est Machina! - 8th Edition Initiation
rvd1ofakind wrote: My result was him taking out 150 pts of units in just his single Gattling Cannon volley. So yeah. I'm fn keeping him. He killed almost 1000 pts of units BY HIMSELF.
Brutal.
Here is the list I was kicking around that had a Knight in it:
Spearhead Detachment
HQ:
Belisarius Cawl
[250]
Elites:
Cybernetica Datasmith
Gamma, Fist
[52]
Cybernetica Datasmith
Gamma, Fist
[52]
Fast Attack:
Ironstrider Balistarii
Twin Cognis Lacannon
[95]
Ironstrider Balistarii
Twin Cognis Lacannon
[95]
Heavy:
(3) Kastelan Robot
Triple Heavy Phosphor Blasters
[330]
(3) Kastelan Robot
Triple Heavy Phosphor Blasters
[330]
Neutron Laser really seems under-costed at 45 points compared to a Twin Lascannon at 50. D3 shots is about as good as 2, Strength 10 > 9, -4 > -3, and the D6 with a minimum of 3 is so consistent.
Gak Attack wrote: I'll be honest.. I'm not really seeing why the PC is so much better than heavy grav on the destroyers. It's only 3 points more expensive, and while admittedly you don't get as good strength it's decently high and, you KNOW you're going to get 5 shots out of each one.
Right, it is 100% 15 shots, and on average you will get less for the PC, but PC can be overcharged a little easier with Cawls reroll.
2017/06/07 16:57:28
Subject: Tactica Mechanicus 2.0 - Deus Est Machina! - 8th Edition Initiation
rvd1ofakind wrote: My result was him taking out 150 pts of units in just his single Gattling Cannon volley. So yeah. I'm fn keeping him. He killed almost 1000 pts of units BY HIMSELF.
Spoiler:
Brutal.
Here is the list I was kicking around that had a Knight in it:
Spearhead Detachment
HQ:
Belisarius Cawl
[250]
Elites:
Cybernetica Datasmith
Gamma, Fist
[52]
Cybernetica Datasmith
Gamma, Fist
[52]
Fast Attack:
Ironstrider Balistarii
Twin Cognis Lacannon
[95]
Ironstrider Balistarii
Twin Cognis Lacannon
[95]
Heavy:
(3) Kastelan Robot
Triple Heavy Phosphor Blasters
[330]
(3) Kastelan Robot
Triple Heavy Phosphor Blasters
[330]
Onager Dunecrawler
Neutron Laser & Cognis Heavy Stubber, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad Spectrum Data-tether
[151]
Super-Heavy Aux Detachment:
Knight Warden
Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Heavy Stubber, Reaper Chainsword, Titanic Feet, Stormspear
[511]
[1996]
Debating on tossing a Datasmith and making one of those Balistarii units a duo.
Looks like it has a pretty extensive amount of firepower, but not a particularly large amount of bodies.
Not great. You'll just get your stuff charged turn 1,2 and lose half your fire power. You NEED something to screen people off. You'll do amazingly against TAU and Knights but that's about it. A horde comes and you're f'd
Only crusader is good since the melee weapons are underpowered. You can just stomp which does almost the same thing except it's more versitile since it can kill hordes too.
Datasmith is only needed for protocols. He meh otherwise.
Get a dominus, skitarii troops and get +3CP.
Also consider infiltrators since they are lethal against hordes. Or electro priests to stand behind skitarii, who will overwatch when charged. Then you can charge with priests to avoid overwatch (if they have any) and then retreat with skitarii. Or retreat with skitarii, kill most of the troops and finish off with electro priests for the 3+ invul save feel no pain unit with mortal wounds at it's disposal.
Wow really the Volkite/Macrostubber is devastating to hear. But I think you're right. Next one I'm building with Eradication Ray and Phosphor Serpenta just for variety's sake anyway.
I love MSU in 8th because yes it helps in Morale Phase, and some weapons do more hits/damage when the unit is a certain number. You also get more Alphas so that's 1 Ld and 1 Attack more. I'll be keeping my pistols/CC weapon on Vanguard Alphas for fluff reasons. As for the Destroyers they're filling a Troop slot that I'd prefer filled by Vanguards, think a bit about it but if you shoot enough Radium bullets even on Vehicles, the 2 Damage on 6+ is huge when compared to the number of shots you can do. Well it's huge against everybody but still, Rangers are not just different now, they're only good for placing your Arquebii now. I prefer the visual effect of an army with loads of infantry than too few models, playing small armies frighten me now in 8th
I'll be testing CC Robots some time, I still want to have more and I love myself more variety on the models, they look cuter with Fists.
40K: Adeptus Mechanicus
AoS: Nighthaunts
2017/06/07 17:21:53
Subject: Re:Tactica Mechanicus 2.0 - Deus Est Machina! - 8th Edition Initiation
I think part of why MSU is important in a not-quite-as-hordy-and-assaulty-army is because when you do face any army that assaults you, you can run screens with those small units to prevent your important stuff from being charged. Then, rather than having a screening 10-man, 100 point unit stuck in combat, you only have a 5-man, 50 point unit and you can get twice as many, easily filling out the detachments for more CP.
2017/06/07 17:33:26
Subject: Re:Tactica Mechanicus 2.0 - Deus Est Machina! - 8th Edition Initiation
rvd1ofakind wrote: My result was him taking out 150 pts of units in just his single Gattling Cannon volley. So yeah. I'm fn keeping him. He killed almost 1000 pts of units BY HIMSELF.
Spoiler:
Brutal.
Here is the list I was kicking around that had a Knight in it:
Spearhead Detachment
HQ:
Belisarius Cawl
[250]
Elites:
Cybernetica Datasmith
Gamma, Fist
[52]
Cybernetica Datasmith
Gamma, Fist
[52]
Fast Attack:
Ironstrider Balistarii
Twin Cognis Lacannon
[95]
Ironstrider Balistarii
Twin Cognis Lacannon
[95]
Heavy:
(3) Kastelan Robot
Triple Heavy Phosphor Blasters
[330]
(3) Kastelan Robot
Triple Heavy Phosphor Blasters
[330]
Onager Dunecrawler
Neutron Laser & Cognis Heavy Stubber, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad Spectrum Data-tether
[151]
Super-Heavy Aux Detachment:
Knight Warden
Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Heavy Stubber, Reaper Chainsword, Titanic Feet, Stormspear
[511]
[1996]
Debating on tossing a Datasmith and making one of those Balistarii units a duo.
Looks like it has a pretty extensive amount of firepower, but not a particularly large amount of bodies.
Not great. You'll just get your stuff charged turn 1,2 and lose half your fire power. You NEED something to screen people off. You'll do amazingly against TAU and Knights but that's about it. A horde comes and you're f'd
Only crusader is good since the melee weapons are underpowered. You can just stomp which does almost the same thing except it's more versitile since it can kill hordes too.
Datasmith is only needed for protocols. He meh otherwise.
Get a dominus, skitarii troops and get +3CP.
Also consider infiltrators since they are lethal against hordes. Or electro priests to stand behind skitarii, who will overwatch when charged. Then you can charge with priests to avoid overwatch (if they have any) and then retreat with skitarii. Or retreat with skitarii, kill most of the troops and finish off with electro priests for the 3+ invul save feel no pain unit with mortal wounds at it's disposal.
The problem with those suggestions is... how? Points are so tight as it is! I got to keep messing with the list, but fitting everything into 2000pt is way harder than I thought it would be.
On an aside, I don't see how melee is underpowered. If I face a lot of high-wound models. Reaper is a good way to gut a Land Raider, for instance. Against 1- and 2-wound infantry, sure. But it is absolutely going to ruin anything it hits. The feet will be ideal for larger amounts of lower wound models though, for sure.
Hello dakka members,
It's my first post on dakka but I've been following the discussions for some time now.
Something is really bugging me so I had to create an account if only to ask this question.
I don't understand why everyone likes so much the full HB on the Kastelans..
They are bs 4+ and the phosphors are heavies... so they are basically hitting on 5+ right?
Have I been missing something?
Hail the Omnissiah!
2017/06/07 17:37:53
Subject: Re:Tactica Mechanicus 2.0 - Deus Est Machina! - 8th Edition Initiation
Hello dakka members,
It's my first post on dakka but I've been following the discussions for some time now.
Something is really bugging me so I had to create an account if only to ask this question.
I don't understand why everyone likes so much the full HB on the Kastelans..
They are bs 4+ and the phosphors are heavies... so they are basically hitting on 5+ right?
Have I been missing something?
Hail the Omnissiah!
Welcome, and glory to the Omnissiah! Let's talk about why kastelans are so good with 3 HPB. First, each HPB is 3 shots, at S6, AP-2, no cover. Even though each shot is only 1 damage, that's an impressive number of shots, strength, and AP. Second, the -1 to hit only kicks in if they move, so if you don't move them, you still hit on 4+. Not bad, but let's make it better. If you notice, there's a protocol rule for the kastelans that allows them to pick 1 of 3 protocols to use. One of these prevents you from moving but you get to shoot twice every shooting phase and overwatch. Well, now that's 18 shots per robot per shooting/overwatch phase. Hitting on 4s, each robot gets 9 S6, AP-2 hits ignoring cover. That's pretty fantastic, but can we do better? Oh hello, who is this handsome tech-priest? Why, it's Belisarius Cawl who lets every "Mars" admech unit re-roll failed to-hit rolls within 6" of him. Well, now we're hitting on 4+ with 18 shots, re-rolling. For 110 points per, that's a pretty darn good deal.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/07 17:42:39
2017/06/07 18:03:52
Subject: Re:Tactica Mechanicus 2.0 - Deus Est Machina! - 8th Edition Initiation
rvd1ofakind wrote: My result was him taking out 150 pts of units in just his single Gattling Cannon volley. So yeah. I'm fn keeping him. He killed almost 1000 pts of units BY HIMSELF.
Spoiler:
Brutal.
Here is the list I was kicking around that had a Knight in it:
Spearhead Detachment
HQ:
Belisarius Cawl
[250]
Elites:
Cybernetica Datasmith
Gamma, Fist
[52]
Cybernetica Datasmith
Gamma, Fist
[52]
Fast Attack:
Ironstrider Balistarii
Twin Cognis Lacannon
[95]
Ironstrider Balistarii
Twin Cognis Lacannon
[95]
Heavy:
(3) Kastelan Robot
Triple Heavy Phosphor Blasters
[330]
(3) Kastelan Robot
Triple Heavy Phosphor Blasters
[330]
Onager Dunecrawler
Neutron Laser & Cognis Heavy Stubber, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad Spectrum Data-tether
[151]
Super-Heavy Aux Detachment:
Knight Warden
Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Heavy Stubber, Reaper Chainsword, Titanic Feet, Stormspear
[511]
[1996]
Debating on tossing a Datasmith and making one of those Balistarii units a duo.
Looks like it has a pretty extensive amount of firepower, but not a particularly large amount of bodies.
Not great. You'll just get your stuff charged turn 1,2 and lose half your fire power. You NEED something to screen people off. You'll do amazingly against TAU and Knights but that's about it. A horde comes and you're f'd
Only crusader is good since the melee weapons are underpowered. You can just stomp which does almost the same thing except it's more versitile since it can kill hordes too.
Datasmith is only needed for protocols. He meh otherwise.
Get a dominus, skitarii troops and get +3CP.
Also consider infiltrators since they are lethal against hordes. Or electro priests to stand behind skitarii, who will overwatch when charged. Then you can charge with priests to avoid overwatch (if they have any) and then retreat with skitarii. Or retreat with skitarii, kill most of the troops and finish off with electro priests for the 3+ invul save feel no pain unit with mortal wounds at it's disposal.
The problem with those suggestions is... how? Points are so tight as it is! I got to keep messing with the list, but fitting everything into 2000pt is way harder than I thought it would be.
On an aside, I don't see how melee is underpowered. If I face a lot of high-wound models. Reaper is a good way to gut a Land Raider, for instance. Against 1- and 2-wound infantry, sure. But it is absolutely going to ruin anything it hits. The feet will be ideal for larger amounts of lower wound models though, for sure.
Drop the 3-4 Kastelans or balliatarii. Yes, Kastelans are really really good. But you HAVE to get some bodies. If the knight wasn't there - go 6 kastelans, no problem.
The problem with melee is that it costs 30 pts. And it will only take effect vs huge models and you have to get where you want. And since the Knight can't fly, he can be sort of tarpited with crappy troops. He can ofc leave and try to go for it, but 1 troop in the way and you're screwed. On the other hand - just take an awesome shooting weapon and be awesome from turn 1 to turn "last".
WrentheFaceless wrote: Knights can walk out of combat with infantry and act as normal, the only restriction on if there isnt any clear space within 12 inches of him
Which is what I meant. A smart player can just keep a crappy unit in front
WrentheFaceless wrote: Knights can walk out of combat with infantry and act as normal, the only restriction on if there isnt any clear space within 12 inches of him
Which is what I meant. A smart player can just keep a crappy unit in front
He can move anyway he wants, would be hard to lock him in an area unless the knight player intentionally put himself in a corner
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2017/06/07 19:08:58
Subject: Re:Tactica Mechanicus 2.0 - Deus Est Machina! - 8th Edition Initiation
Drop the 3-4 Kastelans or balliatarii. Yes, Kastelans are really really good. But you HAVE to get some bodies. If the knight wasn't there - go 6 kastelans, no problem.
The problem with melee is that it costs 30 pts. And it will only take effect vs huge models and you have to get where you want. And since the Knight can't fly, he can be sort of tarpited with crappy troops. He can ofc leave and try to go for it, but 1 troop in the way and you're screwed. On the other hand - just take an awesome shooting weapon and be awesome from turn 1 to turn "last".
So... taking it away from two detachments, going for just a Battalion. Cutting a Datasmith and a trio of Robots to make room for other stuff. 30 Vanguards gives me firepower and screening units for my Robots, Crawlers, and Knight.
Onager Dunecrawler
Neutron Laser & Cognis Heavy Stubber, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad Spectrum Data-tether
[151]
Super-Heavy Aux Detachment
Knight Crusader
Avenger Gatling Cannon, Thermal Cannon, Heavy Stubber, Heavy Flamer, Titanic Feet
[512]
[2000]
A bit of filler points thrown in, like the Power Sword. I have anti-tank, anti-infantry, and anti-air. Not a lot of bodies, but we don't do that well anyhow. The nice part is the sheer variety (even with the spammy troops, but that isn't our fault we have like 4 choices!).
Drop the 3-4 Kastelans or balliatarii. Yes, Kastelans are really really good. But you HAVE to get some bodies. If the knight wasn't there - go 6 kastelans, no problem.
The problem with melee is that it costs 30 pts. And it will only take effect vs huge models and you have to get where you want. And since the Knight can't fly, he can be sort of tarpited with crappy troops. He can ofc leave and try to go for it, but 1 troop in the way and you're screwed. On the other hand - just take an awesome shooting weapon and be awesome from turn 1 to turn "last".
So... taking it away from two detachments, going for just a Battalion. Cutting a Datasmith and a trio of Robots to make room for other stuff. 30 Vanguards gives me firepower and screening units for my Robots, Crawlers, and Knight.
Onager Dunecrawler
Neutron Laser & Cognis Heavy Stubber, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad Spectrum Data-tether
[151]
Super-Heavy Aux Detachment
Knight Crusader
Avenger Gatling Cannon, Thermal Cannon, Heavy Stubber, Heavy Flamer, Titanic Feet
[512]
[2000]
A bit of filler points thrown in, like the Power Sword. I have anti-tank, anti-infantry, and anti-air. Not a lot of bodies, but we don't do that well anyhow. The nice part is the sheer variety (even with the spammy troops, but that isn't our fault we have like 4 choices!).
Kinda toying with what you posted, but with a couple changes.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And damn... We can't even do that.. That's an illegal list. We need another HQ to get battalion. :(
DAMMIT.
We desperately need a more affordable HQ. The nuMarine Lieutenants are like... 70ish points, while our cheapest is double that.
I hope our future Codex gives us something.
Also, the RFBC on the Knight seems bad. I mean, it can be 2 measly hits for that price tag? I would rather have the Thermal, which seems all around more deadly.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/06/07 19:51:47
Well, we CAN get some cheap HQ. There's an issue however. Some Imperium HQs are cheap. We lose canticles. Note: we're the only faction to LOSE the faction benefits for bringing in an ally in the same detachment. Also we lose every inch of fluff left in admech.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/07 20:01:34
2017/06/07 20:03:37
Subject: Re:Tactica Mechanicus 2.0 - Deus Est Machina! - 8th Edition Initiation
Jackal444 wrote: Well, we CAN get some cheap HQ. There's an issue however. Some Imperium HQs are cheap. We lose canticles. Note: we're the only faction to LOSE the faction benefits for bringing in an ally in the same detachment. Also we lose every inch of fluff left in admech.
Yea, annoyed with that myself. GW really gutted this faction.
Well heres the thing, these rules are just to get everyone started with 8th to actually have usable rules. GW is still coming out with individual codexes somewhere soon down the line after 8th launches
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2017/06/07 20:12:18
Subject: Re:Tactica Mechanicus 2.0 - Deus Est Machina! - 8th Edition Initiation
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