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 n0t_u wrote:
Since cover is a +1 to save now, then what do people think about taking omnispex on their 5 man vanguard units? I think it would at least help out a bit, the data tether seems pretty crappy to begin with when you can just MSU them to avoid the same problem it tries to bandaid.

I think it's best invested either in 5-man squads with no special weapons or in full squads with special weapons. Because when you'll have some shots at your small squad, you'd have to chose between removing either your useful special weapons or your Omnispex guy really quickly (especially if the Alpha has a pistol/CC), you would only have one or two cheap dudes to soak up the shot before removing more expensive guys. Whereas if you put an Omnispex in a max squad with some special weapons, you'll have the extra guys to soak up a bit of damage by the time your guys are in place to actually benefit from their weaponry, and thus the Omnispex.

I think it's good to have an Omnispex in a squad of Rangers with Arquebuses though, in case you're playing against someone who buffs his artillery with a character in a ruin or something. Thinking about it I don't know if we'll have to shoot at characters in cover as much as before.

On another topic, what are your opinions on Arc Rifles ? Want to build a min squad with two of them, + an Arc Pistol/Maul for the Alpha for the fluffy side of it. They've been nerfed but now they're only 4 points each, at 12" you can dish max 4d3 damage with rend to vehicles, for just 14 points/guy.

Eh, they are cheap, but only being STR 6 means youll need 5s almost all the time

Only heavy weapon I see as worth it is to a 10 man ranger unit with 3 sniper and hopefully getting 2-3 turns of sniping before they are killed. (But then the unit becomes expensive and eats points away for better things...robots...orangers...knights...)

The new Arc Rifles are... accurately priced. They are marginally better than Rad Carbines from a points perspective; you get 6 inches of range and comparable performance against non-vehicles and higher range and points efficiency against vehicles. Would be better if they gave us 1 Mortal Wound or something. Overcharged Plasma looks great though.

Which reminds me. Is it really settled that Grav Destroyers are better than Plasma Destroyers? I feel like Overcharged Plasma is severely underrated in Mathhammer terms right now, especially since when evaluated in a vacuum.

Destroyers are terrible so doesent matter what one is better at the moment. When they drop a good 100 points then I'll consider them.

Has anyone thought about fortifications yet?

Something like this?

Firestorm Redoubt
2x Punisher Gatling Cannons
[200]

40 shots that hit on a 5+ plus 10 models inside shooting.

Or a Void Shield Generator for a 4++ to everything completely within 12"?

Might not be useful, but I figured it merited bringing them up - we got to make sure we don't miss any options for the new edition.

The problem with the void shield is that it doesn't help any admech units very much. Robots, TPD, Cawl, Onagers all have at least a 5++. And you can't keep rangers/vanguard back and expect them to get their points worth of shooting since their range isn't that great. VSG really helps things like shooting dreadnaughts that don't have an invul or predators.

str00dles1 wrote:
Destroyers are terrible so doesent matter what one is better at the moment. When they drop a good 100 points then I'll consider them.

Really? We're at the beginning of a new edition. Let's not dismiss something as good or terrible out of hand and explore possible use cases. I mean, 100 points for a minimum unit of 3 would really put them over the top given what they currently can do.

Now, from what I gather, Destroyers have these standout characteristics:
1) Very fragile (210 points for 3x3 wounds at T5 and 4+/6++), poor 7" average mobility
2) Fills a troop slot, but carries artillery weapons (Heavy w/o penalty and 36" range)
3) OC Plasma is VERY good for heavier-than-middle targets. Destroyers are more point efficient than Crawlers and Kastellans against anything heavier than an MEQ and lighter than a Land Raider.

I mean, seriously guys, do the Mathhammer. OC Plasma is CRAZY with a reroll. Seems like Destroyers will compete with (or complement) OC Plasma Vanguard (which has half the range) as a glass cannon. I wonder if you could put it in a fortification or behind a screen of Kastelans. Thoughts?

Suzuteo wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:
Destroyers are terrible so doesent matter what one is better at the moment. When they drop a good 100 points then I'll consider them.

Really? We're at the beginning of a new edition. Let's not dismiss something as good or terrible out of hand and explore possible use cases. I mean, 100 points for a minimum unit of 3 would really put them over the top given what they currently can do.

Now, from what I gather, Destroyers have these standout characteristics:
1) Very fragile (210 points for 3x3 wounds at T5 and 4+/6++), poor 7" average mobility
2) Fills a troop slot, but carries artillery weapons (Heavy w/o penalty and 36" range)
3) OC Plasma is VERY good for heavier-than-middle targets. Destroyers are more point efficient than Crawlers and Kastellans against anything heavier than an MEQ and lighter than a Land Raider.

I mean, seriously guys, do the Mathhammer. OC Plasma is CRAZY with a reroll. Seems like Destroyers will compete with (or complement) OC Plasma Vanguard (which has half the range) as a glass cannon. I wonder if you could put it in a fortification or behind a screen of Kastelans. Thoughts?

Ive played them in in 5 games, others have played them, the general thoughts are posted on the first page. They are terrible. Kastallens are just better. Mathhammers already been done. OC plasma is also bad like all plasma. Even with a reroll, all it takes is a 1 and its dead.

Inquisitor Acolytes are 3 wound models for 8 points... Granted not HW, but they also get "Look Out Sir" for nearby Inquisitors, and they eat up an Elite slot... But still, Destroyers cost way too much for what they can do, Troops or not...

str00dles1 wrote:

Iago40k wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:


From Tech Priest Dom, which you will always have 1 of these for now atleast. Archmagos – While Cawl is on the battlefield, you can +1 or -1 when rolling on the Canticles table.

I don't..what? Cawls got Archmagos for +1/-1 but TPD does not have such an ability.

My Mistake. Ive bene using rvd1ofakind's points sheets, and under TPD it has Archmago ability also. Guess he copy/pasted and didn't take it out.

Fixed, tell me if you see more. It was a typo, I knew Dominus didn't have that ability.

And about the roll of pick canticles topic:
It's not cheese and we're not abusing it. You CAN pick or roll. The difference between psychic and that is that psychic is "do you want to play for fun? roll then" and canticles actually have a mechanic attached to them (cawl). Which is why you choose what you want to do: roll or pick, every turn.

str00dles1 wrote:
Ive played them in in 5 games, others have played them, the general thoughts are posted on the first page. They are terrible. Kastallens are just better. Mathhammers already been done. OC plasma is also bad like all plasma. Even with a reroll, all it takes is a 1 and its dead.

Really? Early reports on the other forums say they're okay--though they are glassy. Everyone agrees the Kastelans and Crawlers are better, but Destroyers aren't competing with them. They are Troops.

Point-for-point, a Vanguard with an OC Plasma Caliver is currently most efficient model in AdMech. With a guaranteed re-roll from our HQ, there's only a tiny 2.78% chance that they will actually Gets Hot. We should not dismiss it out of hand.

Suzuteo wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:
Ive played them in in 5 games, others have played them, the general thoughts are posted on the first page. They are terrible. Kastallens are just better. Mathhammers already been done. OC plasma is also bad like all plasma. Even with a reroll, all it takes is a 1 and its dead.

Really? Early reports on the other forums say they're okay--though they are glassy. Everyone agrees the Kastelans and Crawlers are better, but Destroyers aren't competing with them. They are Troops.

Point-for-point, a Vanguard with an OC Plasma Caliver is currently most efficient model in AdMech. With a guaranteed re-roll from our HQ, there's only a tiny 2.78% chance that they will actually Gets Hot. We should not dismiss it out of hand.

I'll be building a max squad with two Plasma Calivers to escort my Dominus. Having the ability to deal 2 Damage is huge now, especially since Vanguards can do that too. They're really good against Primaris Marines for that reason, and Plasma negates their save in the open.

Played the nids yesterday with list #1, so Knight Errant. Won that game 14:6. Got first turn and deployed way back in my zone since he had a melee flyrant, swarmlord and 2 units of genestealers so i had to stay back and not get into first turn charge range of either one of the flying monstrosities. I moved the knight upfield but out of smite range. Damn that knight is so important. It is just such an incredible distraction to the opponent that he needs to put his fire (i.e. exocrenes) into the knight instead of the kastelans or crawler. 3 units of vanguard were just enough of a bubble wrap to hold up against the genestealer of which one unit did not manage to charge in.
I got to say, i spend 100 points for a ranger unit with 2 arqebusses and...dammit they delivered. Sat 5 rounds on an objective marker and managed to snipe 2 characters (Patriarch and Primus) as well as blocking pssobile deepstrikes into the backfield. Well done boys you are allowed in my list.
Kastelans did what they do, so did the onager. Had some bad roles here and there but so did my opponent. All in all it was a great game. Nids are just horrific opponents for AdMech esp for this kind of list where there are basically only 3 units that you want to use as screening units (well 4, counting the knight in). We got some problems getting our units upfield against nids since they put out so much melee pressure in the first 2 turns that we basically start moving in turn 3. Also I lost my Infiltrators a little bit to soon. I think I've been playing them too offensively. They need to survive at least 2 turns since they are the only unit in my list that has the means to spread out the opponents army and split his fire.

Suzuteo wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:
Ive played them in in 5 games, others have played them, the general thoughts are posted on the first page. They are terrible. Kastallens are just better. Mathhammers already been done. OC plasma is also bad like all plasma. Even with a reroll, all it takes is a 1 and its dead.

Really? Early reports on the other forums say they're okay--though they are glassy. Everyone agrees the Kastelans and Crawlers are better, but Destroyers aren't competing with them. They are Troops.

Point-for-point, a Vanguard with an OC Plasma Caliver is currently most efficient model in AdMech. With a guaranteed re-roll from our HQ, there's only a tiny 2.78% chance that they will actually Gets Hot. We should not dismiss it out of hand.

They aren't competing with them? Them being troops means nothing. They are in the same role as Kastelans, Onagers, Balistarii and Knight Crusaders - backfield artilery. And guess what - they are worse than all of them. So you spend all your points on the 4 I've mentioned, and you have like 800 pts left. Cawl, Dominus. 500 pts left. Are you seriously telling me you're going to spend MORE points on backfield artilery? No. You have to get troops that are actually good at protecting the back field or you will get charged turn 1/2 and lose.

 Aaranis wrote:
I'll be building a max squad with two Plasma Calivers to escort my Dominus. Having the ability to deal 2 Damage is huge now, especially since Vanguards can do that too. They're really good against Primaris Marines for that reason, and Plasma negates their save in the open.

Yes, and it's so damn consistent. With a reroll, OC Plasma Calivers deal 1.73 wounds per turn against MCs, Bikes, Dreadnoughts, and Terminators, and 2.16 against Primaris.

My only question is whether we want to run 2 in a minimum squad or do one each like in 7th edition non-WarCon.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
They aren't competing with them? Them being troops means nothing. They are in the same role as Kastelans, Onagers, Balistarii and Knight Crusaders - backfield artilery. And guess what - they are worse than all of them. So you spend all your points on the 4 I've mentioned, and you have like 800 pts left. Cawl, Dominus. 500 pts left. Are you seriously telling me you're going to spend MORE points on backfield artilery? No. You have to get troops that are actually good at protecting the back field or you will get charged turn 1/2 and lose.

Friend, nothing you said is technically wrong, but I don't think your attitude is helpful. I'm not cheerleading Destroyers or making some binding pronouncement about them; I don't even own any--all of my models are currently Skitarii. But at this point, inquiry is important. It's way too premature from just a handful of games each to declare something settled and dismiss all possible use cases.

On to your points. Yes, I said that assuming Heavy Support slot scarcity. Yes, they do compete on points. But if you're going to make that argument, Ironstriders and Crusaders have no role in our armies either. Indeed, we ought to run nothing but Kastelans and Crawlers in a Brigade detachment for maximum CP and Heavy Slots, fulfilling reqs. with the cheapest possible units: Datasmith, Dragoons, and Vanguard. (And that may well be the competitive build.)

Now, in terms of wounds per point, OC Plasma Destroyers with rerolls are more point efficient than Neutron Crawlers and Phosphor Kastelans against midweight targets; much more so within 24". They can also benefit from cover and fortification normally reserved for Troops and shoot up to 3 targets. Can we discuss this constructively?

You can't compare things to OC plasma. Especially when they fire THAT many shots.
If you get a crap roll - you can easily re-roll into 1s. That happens quite often.
If you're trying to be careful - just re-roll 1s, you just won't do enough damage.

And Crusader plays a huge roll in the army. Have you tried him? He's insane. TOs are thinking about banning Knight armies, for example and speculators expect them to be the new Eldar of 8th but not as opressive. Also balistarii are devastating with lsacannons if they get a good shot off.

Suzuteo wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
I'll be building a max squad with two Plasma Calivers to escort my Dominus. Having the ability to deal 2 Damage is huge now, especially since Vanguards can do that too. They're really good against Primaris Marines for that reason, and Plasma negates their save in the open.

Yes, and it's so damn consistent. With a reroll, OC Plasma Calivers deal 1.73 wounds per turn against MCs, Bikes, Dreadnoughts, and Terminators, and 2.16 against Primaris.

My only question is whether we want to run 2 in a minimum squad or do one each like in 7th edition non-WarCon.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
They aren't competing with them? Them being troops means nothing. They are in the same role as Kastelans, Onagers, Balistarii and Knight Crusaders - backfield artilery. And guess what - they are worse than all of them. So you spend all your points on the 4 I've mentioned, and you have like 800 pts left. Cawl, Dominus. 500 pts left. Are you seriously telling me you're going to spend MORE points on backfield artilery? No. You have to get troops that are actually good at protecting the back field or you will get charged turn 1/2 and lose.

Friend, nothing you said is technically wrong, but I don't think your attitude is helpful. I'm not cheerleading Destroyers or making some binding pronouncement about them; I don't even own any--all of my models are currently Skitarii. But at this point, inquiry is important. It's way too premature from just a handful of games each to declare something settled and dismiss all possible use cases.

On to your points. Yes, I said that assuming Heavy Support slot scarcity. Yes, they do compete on points. But if you're going to make that argument, Ironstriders and Crusaders have no role in our armies either. Indeed, we ought to run nothing but Kastelans and Crawlers in a Brigade detachment for maximum CP and Heavy Slots, fulfilling reqs. with the cheapest possible units: Datasmith, Dragoons, and Vanguard. (And that may well be the competitive build.)

Now, in terms of wounds per point, OC Plasma Destroyers with rerolls are more point efficient than Neutron Crawlers and Phosphor Kastelans against midweight targets; much more so within 24". They can also benefit from cover and fortification normally reserved for Troops and shoot up to 3 targets. Can we discuss this constructively?

Its your money, so buy what models you want, but theory crafting with math is very different then seeing them disappoint you in person. You don't own the models, so go ahead and buy them. They are bad.There are tourneys already happening in the area in a week or two, and no admech player is brining Destroyers. OC plasma is not good. Roll to many shots and youll loose models. Don't roil enough and they don't do any damage.

Spending 220 points on a unit to maybe do well for a single turn, then die and become vastly more terrible is not worth it. We are telling you not to waste your time with them.

All this talk of knights.. what is the opinion of the Mechanicum Cerastus Knight-Atrapos? I know it's pure speculation at this point, but the model looks amazing - was it any good in 7th ed? Would it sit nicely in an Ad Mech army?

 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:
All this talk of knights.. what is the opinion of the Mechanicum Cerastus Knight-Atrapos? I know it's pure speculation at this point, but the model looks amazing - was it any good in 7th ed? Would it sit nicely in an Ad Mech army?

no clue. Never cared about forgeworld. Plus this knight is 30k.

Iago40k wrote:

 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:
All this talk of knights.. what is the opinion of the Mechanicum Cerastus Knight-Atrapos? I know it's pure speculation at this point, but the model looks amazing - was it any good in 7th ed? Would it sit nicely in an Ad Mech army?

no clue. Never cared about forgeworld. Plus this knight is 30k.

The Cerastus Knight-Atrapos may be taken as part of a Questoris Knight Crusade army or as a Lords of War choice for a Mechanicum Taghmata army in Horus Heresy games. Alternatively, it may be taken in Codex: Imperial Knights armies or as a Lords of War choice in an army of any faction that is part of the Armies of the Imperium in standard games of Warhammer 40,000.

It's listed in 40k knights, so see no reason why it's any less of a valid choice than a standard GW knight...

 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:

Iago40k wrote:

 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:
All this talk of knights.. what is the opinion of the Mechanicum Cerastus Knight-Atrapos? I know it's pure speculation at this point, but the model looks amazing - was it any good in 7th ed? Would it sit nicely in an Ad Mech army?

no clue. Never cared about forgeworld. Plus this knight is 30k.

The Cerastus Knight-Atrapos may be taken as part of a Questoris Knight Crusade army or as a Lords of War choice for a Mechanicum Taghmata army in Horus Heresy games. Alternatively, it may be taken in Codex: Imperial Knights armies or as a Lords of War choice in an army of any faction that is part of the Armies of the Imperium in standard games of Warhammer 40,000.

It's listed in 40k knights, so see no reason why it's any less of a valid choice than a standard GW knight...

Well we have to wait until the new index comes that brigs 30k admech to 40k. For how it looks, its not worth the price to me personally.

I run a Crusader I believe with a RFBC and Gatling. That is over 500 points right there. I would guess this guy might hit 600-650 with weapons. Little to much for the standard 2k game.

str00dles1 wrote:

 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:

Iago40k wrote:

 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:
All this talk of knights.. what is the opinion of the Mechanicum Cerastus Knight-Atrapos? I know it's pure speculation at this point, but the model looks amazing - was it any good in 7th ed? Would it sit nicely in an Ad Mech army?

no clue. Never cared about forgeworld. Plus this knight is 30k.

The Cerastus Knight-Atrapos may be taken as part of a Questoris Knight Crusade army or as a Lords of War choice for a Mechanicum Taghmata army in Horus Heresy games. Alternatively, it may be taken in Codex: Imperial Knights armies or as a Lords of War choice in an army of any faction that is part of the Armies of the Imperium in standard games of Warhammer 40,000.

It's listed in 40k knights, so see no reason why it's any less of a valid choice than a standard GW knight...

Well we have to wait until the new index comes that brigs 30k admech to 40k. For how it looks, its not worth the price to me personally.

I run a Crusader I believe with a RFBC and Gatling. That is over 500 points right there. I would guess this guy might hit 600-650 with weapons. Little to much for the standard 2k game.

*cough*900pts Stompa*cough*

str00dles1 wrote:

 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:

Iago40k wrote:

 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:
All this talk of knights.. what is the opinion of the Mechanicum Cerastus Knight-Atrapos? I know it's pure speculation at this point, but the model looks amazing - was it any good in 7th ed? Would it sit nicely in an Ad Mech army?

no clue. Never cared about forgeworld. Plus this knight is 30k.

The Cerastus Knight-Atrapos may be taken as part of a Questoris Knight Crusade army or as a Lords of War choice for a Mechanicum Taghmata army in Horus Heresy games. Alternatively, it may be taken in Codex: Imperial Knights armies or as a Lords of War choice in an army of any faction that is part of the Armies of the Imperium in standard games of Warhammer 40,000.

It's listed in 40k knights, so see no reason why it's any less of a valid choice than a standard GW knight...

Well we have to wait until the new index comes that brigs 30k admech to 40k. For how it looks, its not worth the price to me personally.

I run a Crusader I believe with a RFBC and Gatling. That is over 500 points right there. I would guess this guy might hit 600-650 with weapons. Little to much for the standard 2k game.

Just wait until you see the Acastus price. I am betting that one will make all Knights look cheap!

Also as a personal preference, I don't buy to big models for a game this size. The normal knights now are as big as id go. anything else is just silly on a 6x4. If I want bigger, I just play Epic40k and the scale works perfectly

str00dles1 wrote:
Also as a personal preference, I don't buy to big models for a game this size. The normal knights now are as big as id go. anything else is just silly on a 6x4. If I want bigger, I just play Epic40k and the scale works perfectly

So you wouldn't be a fan of my 30k Knight army with a Warhound, Acastus and four other Knights!

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:

 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:

Iago40k wrote:

 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:
All this talk of knights.. what is the opinion of the Mechanicum Cerastus Knight-Atrapos? I know it's pure speculation at this point, but the model looks amazing - was it any good in 7th ed? Would it sit nicely in an Ad Mech army?

no clue. Never cared about forgeworld. Plus this knight is 30k.

The Cerastus Knight-Atrapos may be taken as part of a Questoris Knight Crusade army or as a Lords of War choice for a Mechanicum Taghmata army in Horus Heresy games. Alternatively, it may be taken in Codex: Imperial Knights armies or as a Lords of War choice in an army of any faction that is part of the Armies of the Imperium in standard games of Warhammer 40,000.

It's listed in 40k knights, so see no reason why it's any less of a valid choice than a standard GW knight...

Well we have to wait until the new index comes that brigs 30k admech to 40k. For how it looks, its not worth the price to me personally.

I run a Crusader I believe with a RFBC and Gatling. That is over 500 points right there. I would guess this guy might hit 600-650 with weapons. Little to much for the standard 2k game.

Just wait until you see the Acastus price. I am betting that one will make all Knights look cheap!

I've used the Atrapos in 7th a few times and it's a good, but not amazing knight. Honestly I'd end up picking the crusader over it for lower point warcons, but when I did take the atrapos, it'd do work. With an 8" D gun and D melee weapon wrapped into one and a large template that can make a vortex, it was a solid knight. However, a Crusader will most like out-shoot it so the Atrapos was mostly for getting closer and killing things that needed the D, you just had to be wary of the I4. With that gone, the Atrapos could shine actually. (Also it was 430 points in 7th, so I'd expect it to be in the 550 range in 8th).

str00dles1 wrote:
Its your money, so buy what models you want, but theory crafting with math is very different then seeing them disappoint you in person. You don't own the models, so go ahead and buy them. They are bad.There are tourneys already happening in the area in a week or two, and no admech player is brining Destroyers. OC plasma is not good. Roll to many shots and youll loose models. Don't roil enough and they don't do any damage.

Spending 220 points on a unit to maybe do well for a single turn, then die and become vastly more terrible is not worth it. We are telling you not to waste your time with them.

Wow. Seriously, what's with the attitude? You won't even entertain the idea of doubling or more the damage output of a unit in exchange for only a 1/36 chance to die? I don't see anyone talking like this at all in the Space Marines threads or at the FLGS.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
You can't compare things to OC plasma. Especially when they fire THAT many shots.
If you get a crap roll - you can easily re-roll into 1s. That happens quite often.
If you're trying to be careful - just re-roll 1s, you just won't do enough damage.

And Crusader plays a huge roll in the army. Have you tried him? He's insane. TOs are thinking about banning Knight armies, for example and speculators expect them to be the new Eldar of 8th but not as opressive. Also balistarii are devastating with lsacannons if they get a good shot off.

I don't see why we can't compare things to OC Plasma. It's not as if we're the only ones with them.

Yes, I know. My point wouldn't make sense if Crusaders and Ballistarii weren't good, and if you saw my list a few pages back, it has a Crusader in it. This is because a Crusader clearly offers a distinct advantage over Kastelans and Crawlers in areas such as range, durability, and assault. But if everything is competing purely in one dimension and being compared in points, they would never make it into an army because we're too busy stuffing it to the gills with the most efficient long-range dakka that we have in the largest slot detachment we can find.

Our faction focus went up today, a bit late and useless except for confirmation on one thing. An effect that triggers on a 6+ will trigger on a roll of 5 or 6, if there is a +1 modifier. It's in the section on electropriests of the article.

Now back to your regularly scheduled posts arguing about Destroyers and OC plasma, lol

I need help guys, if you would. Been fiddling with the cool excel spreadsheet for army building and such and am having a hard time sorting something out...

What is the cost and configuration of the Knight Crusader?

Just give me a quick example including the two main guns that you think would be useful.

Thanks!

bortass wrote:
Our faction focus went up today, a bit late and useless except for confirmation on one thing. An effect that triggers on a 6+ will trigger on a roll of 5 or 6, if there is a +1 modifier. It's in the section on electropriests of the article.

Now back to your regularly scheduled posts arguing about Destroyers and OC plasma, lol

Yeah... our Faction Focus feels really perfunctory. Good to know that bit though.

At this point, I am more interested in arguing about how rigid the thinking is in this thread. I have never spoken to any competitive player of anything that relies on conventional knowledge and what "everyone knows/says." One example I recall from last year was that people were dismissive of multiple Knights and any Knight that was not a Crusader in a WarCon list until some guy placed in LVO with one featuring two Wardens.

Anyhow, I'll stop talking about Destroyers, but I want to encourage people to keep a plastic mind, especially this early on.