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Exalted. As a group we need one heck of a lot more games under our collective belts before we really understand how our faction is going to work under this new gaming paradigm.

 Gitsplitta wrote:
I need help guys, if you would. Been fiddling with the cool excel spreadsheet for army building and such and am having a hard time sorting something out...

What is the cost and configuration of the Knight Crusader?

Just give me a quick example including the two main guns that you think would be useful.

Thanks!

I am going for Avenger w/ HF, Thermal, Heavy Stubber and that is it. In the context of my list the Thermal is ideal because I need more dedicated anti-tank. It is much cheaper than a RFBC too. No sense in bringing the Meltagun over the Stubber, either. Waste of points.

If I go for a Carapace, I am leaning towards the Ironstorm more and more. It is so cheap! Main drawback is random shots, but S5 AP -1 and 2 Damage is decent. And we can toss that out at 72" to targets we don't need to see. That sounds good for nailing weak camper units.

So this:

Knight Crusader
Avenger w/ HF, Thermal Cannon, Heavy Stubber, Ironstorm Missile Pod
[528]

Hopefully, that will be killy enough to justify that price tag.

Suzuteo wrote:

bortass wrote:
Our faction focus went up today, a bit late and useless except for confirmation on one thing. An effect that triggers on a 6+ will trigger on a roll of 5 or 6, if there is a +1 modifier. It's in the section on electropriests of the article.

Now back to your regularly scheduled posts arguing about Destroyers and OC plasma, lol

Anyhow, I'll stop talking about Destroyers, but I want to encourage people to keep a plastic mind, especially this early on.

Well, I bought most of my mechanicus minis a while back, and I started out just getting Cult Mechancus models.

So I currently have:

12 kataphrons(3 plasma/
Phosphor, 3 grav/flamer, 3 Arc rifle/arc claw, and 3 torsion cannon/Hydraulic claw.), 4 Kastelans(2 ranged, 2 melee). 5 Fulgurites. And a tech-priest.
Once 8e confirmed they added skitarii to the same army, I picked up a skitarii start collecting box. But still most of my troops in bigger battles than 1k points will have to be kataphrons of some sort until I pick up more models. I've got my first game of 8e scheduled for the end of the month, so I'll tell you how it goes with the Destroyers/Breachers.

 Gitsplitta wrote:
I need help guys, if you would. Been fiddling with the cool excel spreadsheet for army building and such and am having a hard time sorting something out...

What is the cost and configuration of the Knight Crusader?

Just give me a quick example including the two main guns that you think would be useful.

Thanks!

Basically, you have the base model and its weapons. Note that many of the weapons come with other weapons attached, so to speak.

Crusader = 320
Titanic Feet = 0
Heavy Stubber = 4
Avenger Gatling Cannon = 95
Heavy Flamer = 17
Rapid-fire Battle Cannon = 100
Heavy Stubber = 4

= 540

Ahhhh... thanks guys, you're both brilliant! Thank you!

Suzuteo wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:
Its your money, so buy what models you want, but theory crafting with math is very different then seeing them disappoint you in person. You don't own the models, so go ahead and buy them. They are bad.There are tourneys already happening in the area in a week or two, and no admech player is brining Destroyers. OC plasma is not good. Roll to many shots and youll loose models. Don't roil enough and they don't do any damage.

Spending 220 points on a unit to maybe do well for a single turn, then die and become vastly more terrible is not worth it. We are telling you not to waste your time with them.

Wow. Seriously, what's with the attitude? You won't even entertain the idea of doubling or more the damage output of a unit in exchange for only a 1/36 chance to die? I don't see anyone talking like this at all in the Space Marines threads or at the FLGS.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
You can't compare things to OC plasma. Especially when they fire THAT many shots.
If you get a crap roll - you can easily re-roll into 1s. That happens quite often.
If you're trying to be careful - just re-roll 1s, you just won't do enough damage.

And Crusader plays a huge roll in the army. Have you tried him? He's insane. TOs are thinking about banning Knight armies, for example and speculators expect them to be the new Eldar of 8th but not as opressive. Also balistarii are devastating with lsacannons if they get a good shot off.

I don't see why we can't compare things to OC Plasma. It's not as if we're the only ones with them.

Yes, I know. My point wouldn't make sense if Crusaders and Ballistarii weren't good, and if you saw my list a few pages back, it has a Crusader in it. This is because a Crusader clearly offers a distinct advantage over Kastelans and Crawlers in areas such as range, durability, and assault. But if everything is competing purely in one dimension and being compared in points, they would never make it into an army because we're too busy stuffing it to the gills with the most efficient long-range dakka that we have in the largest slot detachment we can find.

Huh? As I said, your money, your models. No one is stopping you from buying them. You are wrong though as its not a 1/36 chance for them to roll a 1 again and die. Far higher dependent on what you roll, and that's the point. Its only good if you overcharge it, and only good if you roll high, but then you loose the models because of how likely the chance is you roll a 1. On your average of 10 shots for the squad of 3, you will loose 1 guy. If they took a mortal would, id be taking them myself, but it isn't worth taking a unit that kills itself. Robots just put out more damage because of the volume of shots they get. Its not worth the points, especially when you can take 5 vanguard for 50 points to bubblewrap your robots and tanks cheaply or rangers to snipe.

I have a quick question - I skimmed through the thread and found no answer:
Is there anything that stops me from getting 3 units of Kastelans, 2 Dominus and 2 gigantic blobs of Electro-Priests as a Spearhed Detachment?
The point is - Kastelans could rain death in relative safety of being behind a blob of Priests (who would serve as a buffer for anything wanting to get close) with Dominus as additional fire support and repair shenanigans.

How big of a dick I would be for running that kind of list?

 Kandela wrote:
I have a quick question - I skimmed through the thread and found no answer:
Is there anything that stops me from getting 3 units of Kastelans, 2 Dominus and 2 gigantic blobs of Electro-Priests as a Spearhed Detachment?
The point is - Kastelans could rain death in relative safety of being behind a blob of Priests (who would serve as a buffer for anything wanting to get close) with Dominus as additional fire support and repair shenanigans.

How big of a dick I would be for running that kind of list?

No, but I am not sure if that is as invincible a combo as you'd think. Electro-Priests would be able to stop your Kataphrons from being Assaulted, but this won't stop the other big threat of mobile shooting units, other artillery, or the general problem of not having enough mobility to control the objectives that your artillery is in range of but not physically present at. This is why Vanguard, Dragoons, and Icarus Crawlers still compete for points.

Also, you're out of luck if they have heavy units or equivalent artillery with longer range. Kataphrons kill an amazing range of enemies by sheer volume of shots, but there are still some things that a Neutron Crawler is better suited for.

 Kandela wrote:
I have a quick question - I skimmed through the thread and found no answer:
Is there anything that stops me from getting 3 units of Kastelans, 2 Dominus and 2 gigantic blobs of Electro-Priests as a Spearhed Detachment?
The point is - Kastelans could rain death in relative safety of being behind a blob of Priests (who would serve as a buffer for anything wanting to get close) with Dominus as additional fire support and repair shenanigans.

How big of a dick I would be for running that kind of list?

Not a dick at all. Kastelans are not invincible and will die, especially when you go into Protector mode. The Fulgurites are T3 1W and even with their equivalent FNP, massed fire will drop them quick. They are a solid counter-assault unit though, but not a great buffer (Vanguard do it better).

I've been thinking... it seems from what I've read here that the AdMech want, maybe even need to go first. That means running out of units to deploy first. Yet having multiple, small troop units to act as screens for the big stuff also seems to be a priority. These two needs seem to be at odds with one-another.

I'm curious about everyone's thoughts on this dichotomy of priorities and how we should manage it while list building.

 Gitsplitta wrote:
I've been thinking... it seems from what I've read here that the AdMech want, maybe even need to go first. That means running out of units to deploy first. Yet having multiple, small troop units to act as screens for the big stuff also seems to be a priority. These two needs seem to be at odds with one-another.

I'm curious about everyone's thoughts on this dichotomy of priorities and how we should manage it while list building.

This is exactly the problem with admech. Vanguards are only run well at 5 man because of morale (if you run 8 and lose 5, then you auto lose the next 3 most of the time). But Vanguard can easily die to high volume of fire weapons and even bolters. Especially biker armies which can put out all kinds of str 4 volume. So you end up in a situation where you need to keep your unit counts down but can't because the troops just don't work in groups of 10. Even if you only take the good units you rapidly end up with more drops than your opponent because you have no way to compress your drops through transports.

I think the good admech lists that actually work will be mostly Onager+PhosphorBots+Cawl as an artillery platform with two crusader knights on the side. You might be able to keep this to 8 drops.

For Crusader, it is about 495 on the low end, and about 595 on the high end.

Suzuteo wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:
Its your money, so buy what models you want, but theory crafting with math is very different then seeing them disappoint you in person. You don't own the models, so go ahead and buy them. They are bad.There are tourneys already happening in the area in a week or two, and no admech player is brining Destroyers. OC plasma is not good. Roll to many shots and youll loose models. Don't roil enough and they don't do any damage.

Spending 220 points on a unit to maybe do well for a single turn, then die and become vastly more terrible is not worth it. We are telling you not to waste your time with them.

Wow. Seriously, what's with the attitude? You won't even entertain the idea of doubling or more the damage output of a unit in exchange for only a 1/36 chance to die? I don't see anyone talking like this at all in the Space Marines threads or at the FLGS.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
You can't compare things to OC plasma. Especially when they fire THAT many shots.
If you get a crap roll - you can easily re-roll into 1s. That happens quite often.
If you're trying to be careful - just re-roll 1s, you just won't do enough damage.

And Crusader plays a huge roll in the army. Have you tried him? He's insane. TOs are thinking about banning Knight armies, for example and speculators expect them to be the new Eldar of 8th but not as opressive. Also balistarii are devastating with lsacannons if they get a good shot off.

I don't see why we can't compare things to OC Plasma. It's not as if we're the only ones with them.

Yes, I know. My point wouldn't make sense if Crusaders and Ballistarii weren't good, and if you saw my list a few pages back, it has a Crusader in it. This is because a Crusader clearly offers a distinct advantage over Kastelans and Crawlers in areas such as range, durability, and assault. But if everything is competing purely in one dimension and being compared in points, they would never make it into an army because we're too busy stuffing it to the gills with the most efficient long-range dakka that we have in the largest slot detachment we can find.

You need thicker skin or dont post here. I thought nothing you quoted either time you called this guy out for his attitude was out of line

 Gitsplitta wrote:
I've been thinking... it seems from what I've read here that the AdMech want, maybe even need to go first. That means running out of units to deploy first. Yet having multiple, small troop units to act as screens for the big stuff also seems to be a priority. These two needs seem to be at odds with one-another.

I'm curious about everyone's thoughts on this dichotomy of priorities and how we should manage it while list building.

Yea, Admech really needs to go first.You need to have your robots soften them up first turn, along with tanks and get the bots into dakka mode shooting first on the second turn.

This is where infiltrators are great. Not only can they possibly get a ton of hits, but they are fairly cheap and sit off the board until end of movement turn 1. So you never have to deploy, making your units less for INT.

str00dles1 wrote:

 Gitsplitta wrote:
I've been thinking... it seems from what I've read here that the AdMech want, maybe even need to go first. That means running out of units to deploy first. Yet having multiple, small troop units to act as screens for the big stuff also seems to be a priority. These two needs seem to be at odds with one-another.

I'm curious about everyone's thoughts on this dichotomy of priorities and how we should manage it while list building.

Yea, Admech really needs to go first.You need to have your robots soften them up first turn, along with tanks and get the bots into dakka mode shooting first on the second turn.

This is where infiltrators are great. Not only can they possibly get a ton of hits, but they are fairly cheap and sit off the board until end of movement turn 1. So you never have to deploy, making your units less for INT.

Declaring a unit is in reserves takes a deployment turn, so your infiltrators aren't making you any more likely to shoot first.

Still a good unit for other reasons, of course.

Well, as a side note in this Destroyer discussion, I used them today against orks!

I needed them to pull vehicle duty, because he was barreling down with Battlewagons, meganobz, and stormboys.

Of the three I brought, 2 of them died to overheating, on different turns.

However! They put about 12 wounds on a Battlewagon to bring it down, followed by another ~9 on the MANz squad the following turn.

As the codex originally said, I had no problem spending the lives of these servitors. To shut down one of his assaulting unit's threat range transport, and then gutting a second assaulting unit the next turn? They more than made their points worth.

This game, anyways.

Arachnofiend wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:

 Gitsplitta wrote:
I've been thinking... it seems from what I've read here that the AdMech want, maybe even need to go first. That means running out of units to deploy first. Yet having multiple, small troop units to act as screens for the big stuff also seems to be a priority. These two needs seem to be at odds with one-another.

I'm curious about everyone's thoughts on this dichotomy of priorities and how we should manage it while list building.

Yea, Admech really needs to go first.You need to have your robots soften them up first turn, along with tanks and get the bots into dakka mode shooting first on the second turn.

This is where infiltrators are great. Not only can they possibly get a ton of hits, but they are fairly cheap and sit off the board until end of movement turn 1. So you never have to deploy, making your units less for INT.

Declaring a unit is in reserves takes a deployment turn, so your infiltrators aren't making you any more likely to shoot first.

Still a good unit for other reasons, of course.

Not doubting your right, but where does it say that in the book. Having trouble finding it

It is on the unit data sheet. or special rules:

Teleport Strike: during deployment you may choose to set up this unit in a teleport chamber instead of on the board...

Inflitrate: during deployment you may choose to set up this unit in hiding instead of on the board...

Jump Pack Assault: during deployment you may choose to set up this unit high in the skies instead of on the board...

Those are quick finds in Imperium 1, the only way to "get ahead" is to deploy a transport which can carry two or more units and declare they are in the transport. Placing in reserve is something that counts as a deployment of an unit.

The problem with admech is that as long as you play by RAW, we will only go first on a 6 vs any army with transports.

2 mandatory HQs? Ok. We deploy 1 hq, he deploys a transport, 2 HQs and a unit of troops inside, we deploy the second HQ...
Aaaaaand we already go 2nd.

However, the most widely accepted house (tournament) rule is the first to deploy just gets a +1 on the dice roll-off to see who goes first.

PyrhusOfEpirus wrote:
You need thicker skin or dont post here. I thought nothing you quoted either time you called this guy out for his attitude was out of line

First, I was not personally offended. I just thought it was a very non-productive attitude to just definitively say "this is bad" or "this is a waste of money," especially when other groups are taking a totally different tack.

Second, this is exactly the sort of post nobody needs to see on a forum. It doesn't help anyone; it just makes people feel less welcome or free to speak.

 gally912 wrote:
Well, as a side note in this Destroyer discussion, I used them today against orks!

I needed them to pull vehicle duty, because he was barreling down with Battlewagons, meganobz, and stormboys.

Of the three I brought, 2 of them died to overheating, on different turns.

However! They put about 12 wounds on a Battlewagon to bring it down, followed by another ~9 on the MANz squad the following turn.

As the codex originally said, I had no problem spending the lives of these servitors. To shut down one of his assaulting unit's threat range transport, and then gutting a second assaulting unit the next turn? They more than made their points worth.

This game, anyways.

I think you're using them as intended. I honestly don't think Gets Hot is a dealbreaker. I mean, it wasn't in 7th, and we have lower point costs and more rerolls today. The way I see it, you're risking a worst case scenario 15.55% chance of death (assuming you're rerolling 1s) to deal 2-3 turns worth of damage in one turn. Setting aside the huge dividends paid when you prematurely remove a unit from the board, how many units survive 3 turns of combat and how often do you wish a unit just had another turn or two to deal damage?

Going first is always helpful, unless you got a board you can manipulate but lets not forget we can declare canticles at the beginning of the game now, not on the start of our turn! This is a huge boon as we can give the cover bonus to all our models or some of the other ones.

And to just beat those skeptics or detractors, canticles are declared at the start of each battleround: a battleround is the start- end of both players turns. (corerulebook: battlerounds.)

I think they may find a way into some lists. 3d6 Plasma shots is nothing to sneeze at, and it doesnt compare unfavorably with other sources of plasma.

A barebones longfang squad with 5PC, is something like ~200 pts. It puts out 10 Plas shots on average, with a range between 5-15. Re-rolls 1's if shooting at same unit. 6, T4 W1 Sv3+ bodies

Destroyers with PC and PB is 210. Puts out 10.5 shots, range between 3-18. No inherent reroll, but can shoot other, rapid fire gun that deals damage and makes Plas ignore cover. Can move and shoot with no penalty. 3, T5 W3 Sv4+ bodies

If one is within 6" of Cawl, who you are always taking, the accuracy becomes a wash. If both squads have to move, the Destroyers are actually better. Also, you can take more destroyers without eating into another FOC.


I'm not saying they are the best ever, but I dont think they are the worst thing either. It depends how much you like plasma. If you remove a crucial piece of your opponents army, then losing a servitor or two afterwards is inconsequential. The difference between a baneblade getting another shooting phase, or that demon prince a chance to charge, is worth its weight in servitors on turn 1 or 2, rather than extra shots later.

2c.

Suzuteo wrote:

First, I was not personally offended. I just thought it was a very non-productive attitude to just definitively say "this is bad" or "this is a waste of money," especially when other groups are taking a totally different tack.

Second, this is exactly the sort of post nobody needs to see on a forum. It doesn't help anyone; it just makes people feel less welcome or free to speak.

Maybe you should read my post again.
I'll re-explain it here:
If you get a 8/10 from an exam. Hey, that's not too bad. But then you see that everyone else got 9s or 10s and that means you are the worst.
Same thing goes for Kataphrons. They are solid. But the units that fill the same roles are just plain better: Kastelans, Onagers, Knights and Las Cannon Balistarii.

This is what I said in the post. This is not "THEY BAD".

Again: if they work for you or you manage to find a way to get a +1 to hit so they never overheat - sure, tell us.
Until then, I won't use them since I'm a tryhard and it's all just my opinion.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Maybe you should read my post again.
I'll re-explain it here:
If you get a 8/10 from an exam. Hey, that's not too bad. But then you see that everyone else got 9s or 10s and that means you are the worst.
Same thing goes for Kataphrons. They are solid. But the units that fill the same roles are just plain better: Kastelans, Onagers, Knights and Las Cannon Balistarii.

This is what I said in the post. This is not "THEY BAD".

Again: if they work for you or you manage to find a way to get a +1 to hit so they never overheat - sure, tell us.
Until then, I won't use them since I'm a tryhard and it's all just my opinion.

I think you also missed my point. Destroyers (both Grav and OC Plasma) are different than the other artillery. Like Crusaders and Ballistarii, they have advantages over Kastelans and Crawlers in certain circumstances. All I wanted to do was to explore those circumstances because I did not understand them very well, since I do not own any.

I'm not saying that they are strictly better, nor am I saying that I plan on using them or recommending that anyone use them.

Is this really that hard to understand?

Did some mathammering. Notes:
Protector Kastelans are stupid powerful
Icarus Onager vs flyers is as powerful (if you even have a small hunch that there might be a unit with "fly" - TAKE ICARUS. It's almost twice as good as neutron(that shoots ground) when it shoots <FLY>. )
Neutron+stubber is just a little better than Icarus vs grounded targets pure "best target damage" wise. But it's still our best way to deal with Vehicles.
Normal plasma+phosphor destroyers are just pure garbage.
OC plasma + phophor destroyers are a smidge better than balistarii and if I did some complicated "how many points were lost on both sides after the attack on average" balistarii would be waaaay in front since it doesn't kill itself. Not to mention Protector Kastelans and Icarus Onagers.

Trying to build a 1k list atm. It's so hard :x
Cawl
2 Dakkastelans
Datasmith
5 Infiltrators, power sword for MEQs
8 vanguard, alpha with power sword (left over)
Neutron Onager
Icarus Onager

Opponents - who knows who

edit: lul list:
cawl
5 dakkastelans
smith
neutron
D:

 gally912 wrote:

Destroyers with PC and PB is 210. Puts out 10.5 shots, range between 3-18. No inherent reroll, but can shoot other, rapid fire gun that deals damage and makes Plas ignore cover. Can move and shoot with no penalty. 3, T5 W3 Sv4+ bodies

"Units attacked by this weapon do not gain any bonus to their savings throws for being in cover"

If I am reading this, I don't see it applying to the Plas. Just the Phosphor.

 gally912 wrote:
I think they may find a way into some lists. 3d6 Plasma shots is nothing to sneeze at, and it doesnt compare unfavorably with other sources of plasma.

A barebones longfang squad with 5PC, is something like ~200 pts. It puts out 10 Plas shots on average, with a range between 5-15. Re-rolls 1's if shooting at same unit. 6, T4 W1 Sv3+ bodies

Destroyers with PC and PB is 210. Puts out 10.5 shots, range between 3-18. No inherent reroll, but can shoot other, rapid fire gun that deals damage and makes Plas ignore cover. Can move and shoot with no penalty. 3, T5 W3 Sv4+ bodies

If one is within 6" of Cawl, who you are always taking, the accuracy becomes a wash. If both squads have to move, the Destroyers are actually better. Also, you can take more destroyers without eating into another FOC.


I'm not saying they are the best ever, but I dont think they are the worst thing either. It depends how much you like plasma. If you remove a crucial piece of your opponents army, then losing a servitor or two afterwards is inconsequential. The difference between a baneblade getting another shooting phase, or that demon prince a chance to charge, is worth its weight in servitors on turn 1 or 2, rather than extra shots later.

2c.

Average is 10.5 shots. Then the amount of times you hit with that average is an average of 7.5 (10/2 hitting on 4s then reroll misses) Dakkabots are 36 shots, average of 27 hits (18+9 cause reroll) . Also ignores cover. Destroyers Blaster ignores cover, but it does NOT carry over to their plasma shots.. Nearly hitting 3 times more.

They are vastly over priced, that's why they are terrible. I don't know a good point cost to make them playable, maybe 120-140 or around there. FOC is not an issue because you can pick whatever you want to focus on.

rvd1ofakind had the best analogy. They are 8/10 but if everything (or almost everything, terrible servitors) are a 9/10 or 10/10 then they are the worst.

Its good you are trying them. I urge others to also, but the results will be the same. For casual games, go for it. But you wont see them in any winning tourney list.

Well I'm hoping there's some truth to a rumor I saw in general discussion about a day 1 FAQ that mentioned Dartmouth and engineers are being move to the HQ slot. I think that will really help us get the larger formations, especially those of us that don't have Cawl.

bortass wrote:
Well I'm hoping there's some truth to a rumor I saw in general discussion about a day 1 FAQ that mentioned Dartmouth and engineers are being move to the HQ slot. I think that will really help us get the larger formations, especially those of us that don't have Cawl.

That is a great autocorrect!

Also, I am hoping for some point corrections for Kataphrons (and the new flying Marines).

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

bortass wrote:
Well I'm hoping there's some truth to a rumor I saw in general discussion about a day 1 FAQ that mentioned Dartmouth and engineers are being move to the HQ slot. I think that will really help us get the larger formations, especially those of us that don't have Cawl.

That is a great autocorrect!

Also, I am hoping for some point corrections for Kataphrons (and the new flying Marines).

Ha, Dartmouth. But yea he needs to be a cheap HQ, same with Engineer. All for Kataphrons getting much cheaper and yea, the jump pack marines are crazy expensive