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 rvd1ofakind wrote:

Do we?
Our elites are now 52 to 130 pts...
Are securati gonna be 20 pts per unit?

Yes. We currently have no good, cheap Elite option for a Brigade (3x Datasmith or 3x Servitor sounds awful). If Vanguard are any reliable indicator, they will be 12 per model, so 60 points for a unit of 5 combi-weapon troops. I wonder how the shields and shroud-shot will work though.

Suzuteo wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

Do we?
Our elites are now 52 to 130 pts...
Are securati gonna be 20 pts per unit?

Yes. We currently have no good, cheap Elite option for a Brigade (3x Datasmith or 3x Servitor sounds awful). If Vanguard are any reliable indicator, they will be 12 per model, so 60 points for a unit of 5 combi-weapon troops. I wonder how the shields and shroud-shot will work though.

I imagine something like this:
Shields: 5+ invuln.
Shroud-shot: Give up shooting attack to give 1 Adeptus Mechanicus unit the benefit of cover.

Eh, I don't really have a problem filling the brigade req:
Smith (a must)
Infiltrators (a must)
Priests (counter-charge)

Yea, a min squad of priests is dirt cheap, 70 and 80 pts.

I trying to decide is it better to have a 5 man unit of vanguard or a missile pod?

What do you guys think is more useful already have 2 rangers 2 robot units and a crab (and a loaded storm raven with a dread and jump troops to deal with charging units)

So a couple rules questions came up today.

Does the cognis weapon rule stack with the heavy weapon penalty? (Making them hit on 6's, essentially)

The TPD and Cawl re-roll rules only apply in shooting phase, and not during overwatch, correct? (Unlike a good portion of other re-roll rules from other factions)

rvd1ofakind wrote:Eh, I don't really have a problem filling the brigade req:
Smith (a must)
Infiltrators (a must)
Priests (counter-charge)

str00dles1 wrote:Yea, a min squad of priests is dirt cheap, 70 and 80 pts.

I would much rather have the combiweapons. And if the shields provide an aura, I would definitely go for it.

gally912 wrote:So a couple rules questions came up today.

Does the cognis weapon rule stack with the heavy weapon penalty? (Making them hit on 6's, essentially)

The TPD and Cawl re-roll rules only apply in shooting phase, and not during overwatch, correct? (Unlike a good portion of other re-roll rules from other factions)

I believe so. You move, you get -1. You advance, you get -2. You also don't get to reroll hits that are successful before modifiers.

Yes. And I think Overwatch is just roll for 6, no modifiers.

Suzuteo wrote:

rvd1ofakind wrote:Eh, I don't really have a problem filling the brigade req:
Smith (a must)
Infiltrators (a must)
Priests (counter-charge)

str00dles1 wrote:Yea, a min squad of priests is dirt cheap, 70 and 80 pts.

I would much rather have the combiweapons. And if the shields provide an aura, I would definitely go for it.

gally912 wrote:So a couple rules questions came up today.

Does the cognis weapon rule stack with the heavy weapon penalty? (Making them hit on 6's, essentially)

The TPD and Cawl re-roll rules only apply in shooting phase, and not during overwatch, correct? (Unlike a good portion of other re-roll rules from other factions)

I believe so. You move, you get -1. You advance, you get -2. You also don't get to reroll hits that are successful before modifiers.

Don't have my index on hand, but doesn't the Crab have a special rule that it does not suffer the heavy weapon penalty? You should only suffer a -1 pen for advancing. But I may be wrong, if someone could check and reply (unless I get home and do it first).

 Tsol wrote:

Don't have my index on hand, but doesn't the Crab have a special rule that it does not suffer the heavy weapon penalty? You should only suffer a -1 pen for advancing. But I may be wrong, if someone could check and reply (unless I get home and do it first).

Cognis is firing at -2 if advance. You're absolutely right, the Onager doesn't suffer the -1 heavy penalty for his Stubber.

In this case, I'm referring to the utility of Cognis weapons on the Ironstrider, who does still suffer that for his autocannon/lascannon.

Can't really see myself ever using it in this way except as throw away shots after *needing* to advance I suppose. Needing 6's just don't cut it.

Bummer about overwatch. I'm hoping there is some sort of errata on what "normal shooting attack" construes.

So what does a competitive tournament Admech list look like?


Also what might an anti nids or orks list look like?

 thatssoeffingcool wrote:
So what does a competitive tournament Admech list look like?


Also what might an anti nids or orks list look like?

I played Nids a couple of times now, always with swarmlord, flying melee tyrants, genestealers etc etc so basically first turn charge all the way.
My list looked like this (1850 pts):
3 x 5 Vanguard
1 x 5 Ranger 2 Arquebusses
1 x 5 Infiltrators (Flechette/Taser)
1 x 3 Dakkastelans
1 x 1 Datasmith
1 Cawl
1 TPD
1 Icarus Onager
1 Neutronager

1 Knight Errant (Thermal, Chaisword, Stubber)

worked like a charm. 3 units of vanguards are the minimum for stopping your artillery getting first turn charged ( you need at least partial double wrap cause smit eis a thing). The Knight is an incredible distraction for any army. I am thinking of just giving him gauntlet and chainsword and just running him upfield (loosing some firepower which would be very helpful though). Soaking up any damage that otherwise would hit your Dakkastelan or Onagers is important.
Haven't played Orks yet.

Could I ask if there is any reason that outright defenestrates (as in throws out of window) Eradication Beamer? It looks like a decent gun now albeit a little bit random.
Also could anyone fill me in on consensus about Heavy Grav Cannon vs Plasma Culverin?

As a skitarii player I am disappointed by the loss of the three things that made skitarii interesting (asside from aesthetics). Doctrinal imperitives, army wide scout and no HQ.

Having read this thread
Admech are no longer a viable army in there own right.

Army wise the HQ tax is crippling, if only enginseer was an HQ. Dunecrawlers are ace but take 3 with a dominous and any efficiency gained from the crawlers is lost to the 100 unnecessary points on a dominous use another faction HQ and you get the second problem-Canticles are dependent on single faction detachment.

The HQ problem could have been solved if you could have named your forgworld blood angels but they faqed that.

So what does that leave for Admech-allies
1) spearhead dominous 6 dunecrawlers with neutron laser maybe 1 with icarus. Great against a tank heavy meta and you get canticles you deploy in a star and just about get value from the dominous

2) Screw the Canticles and just add select Admech units to other imperium armies (note you then have to justify the units vs all other imperium armies)
Hq Never worth it to expensive

Troops ranger 300pt for 6 arquebuses you need at least this many to reliably character snipe
Vanguard less mobile than scion/scouts less tanky than conscripts but they are fairly shooty and the -1t synergises with CC if you can get them there (alternatively stick 10 in a bastion to defend your backline)

Kataphrons 30-40pts too expensive.

Elite Enginseer viable in AM
Other than never worth it (most roles can be done by another imperium faction better)

Fa never worth it (Sentinals are cheaper and scout compared to ballistarii) While if I want a mobile CC unit assault marines/death company with lemartes can be charging turn 1.

Heavy support
Dunecrawler auto take

Kastellan no- their role can be accomplished by other factions and they cost too much.

 gally912 wrote:
So a couple rules questions came up today.

Does the cognis weapon rule stack with the heavy weapon penalty? (Making them hit on 6's, essentially)

The TPD and Cawl re-roll rules only apply in shooting phase, and not during overwatch, correct? (Unlike a good portion of other re-roll rules from other factions)

Yes, it makes it 6's

Cawls ability says it only works in shooting phase, not overwatch

 Kandela wrote:
Could I ask if there is any reason that outright defenestrates (as in throws out of window) Eradication Beamer? It looks like a decent gun now albeit a little bit random.
Also could anyone fill me in on consensus about Heavy Grav Cannon vs Plasma Culverin?

Neither honestly. but if absoutly forced, plasma can do better.

U02dah4 wrote:
As a skitarii player I am disappointed by the loss of the three things that made skitarii interesting (asside from aesthetics). Doctrinal imperitives, army wide scout and no HQ.

Having read this thread
Admech are no longer a viable army in there own right.

Army wise the HQ tax is crippling, if only enginseer was an HQ. Dunecrawlers are ace but take 3 with a dominous and any efficiency gained from the crawlers is lost to the 100 unnecessary points on a dominous use another faction HQ and you get the second problem-Canticles are dependent on single faction detachment.

The HQ problem could have been solved if you could have named your forgworld blood angels but they faqed that.

So what does that leave for Admech-allies
1) spearhead dominous 6 dunecrawlers with neutron laser maybe 1 with icarus. Great against a tank heavy meta and you get canticles you deploy in a star and just about get value from the dominous

2) Screw the Canticles and just add select Admech units to other imperium armies (note you then have to justify the units vs all other imperium armies)
Hq Never worth it to expensive

Troops ranger 300pt for 6 arquebuses you need at least this many to reliably character snipe
Vanguard less mobile than scion/scouts less tanky than conscripts but they are fairly shooty and the -1t synergises with CC if you can get them there (alternatively stick 10 in a bastion to defend your backline)

Kataphrons 30-40pts too expensive.

Elite Enginseer viable in AM
Other than never worth it (most roles can be done by another imperium faction better)

Fa never worth it (Sentinals are cheaper and scout compared to ballistarii) While if I want a mobile CC unit assault marines/death company with lemartes can be charging turn 1.

Heavy support
Dunecrawler auto take

Kastellan no- their role can be accomplished by other factions and they cost too much.

I think your way off here.

Ive hard 6 games so far and Admech is fine by themselves. The biggest issue is vs mass spell force like nids. Have you played games with them yet? Most of what you said is pretty much the opposite of what everyones said here...

Once the Forgeworld book comes out and brings 30k to 40k, we should have a cheap HQ to take with Cawl. Not that TPD is bad as hes a slightly weaker version, but still gives rerolls and repairs.

The Canticles are not as bad as you say. Getting your whole army turn 1 cover since good chance you are going second is really good.

You can Take an Aux of Greyfax for 85 points to fight the psyker issue.

I would never take 6 arquebuses as it way to many points for something you don't need to do.

FA Lascannon chicken is really cheap and great anti tank to fill points.

Kastellan is an auto include.

Most of my local players haven't had time to re-optimise from 7th yet. I don't think the chicken is bad I just prefer crawlers for the AV and think that once 8th gets into full swing your not going to see many vehicles because there massively overpriced and inefficient points wise.

The majority of competitive player I've talked to in my area is looking at some variation on massed infantry although for some of them that's a big change and it's going to take months to get the models together.

I think canticles are nice I just don't think there worth a 25% of your army HQ tax. Particularly if that tax doesn't buff repair your allies

I'm not saying I would take 6 arquebusses but that's the mathhammer to have a reasonable expectancy of sniping a character per turn (which I acknowledge as a valid tactical option but I'm not sure how strong without playtesting and more list building meta data)

Also I should say in my area every event has no forge world stamped on it so the forge world book will change nothing. This may not be the case elsewhere

I end up using my TPD to push forward with units to secure the middle of the board... Vanguard, Electro-priests, etc... granting his re-roll bubble.

That way Cawl can keep his fat behind where it needs to be, giving re-rolls to kastellens and onagers in the backfield, lol.

In that sense, he has not been un-useful. He has solo'd guard squads and an ork bigmek in combat. Macrostubber actually came in quite useful here. Priceless face on the opponent when he heals the 2 wounds he managed to get on him.

If we get the Enginseer as an HQ at some point, I will be not quite so eager to jump ship. In a heavy-support, artillery list I think he'd be useful. If I want to push towards anything and leave my Cawl bubble, the TPD definitely makes a case for me.

@U02dah4Made

I don't play with Cawl, have had one defeat.
2 Arquebus (correct plural) are good enough to take out minor characters in a single turn if TDP is nearby or you have reroll canticle going.
Robots with Datasmith are expensive, but lots of dakka and the refelct ability has the blessings of Omnissiah and procs way more than it should...
Vanguard are the best bang for your buck screening units in the entire Imperium.
Spearhead is the way to go, your canticles give you CP Lite abilities already. I have used all my CP once if I had a Battalion.
I've played with pure AdMech, AdMech + Knight(s), AdMech + Iron Hands. Have gone against Nids, AM Armour, SM, and Tau, Split the matches between the Tau, won the rest, did not play same list each time, did not tailor the lists to the opponents, same list that beat Nids, beat the Armour for example.

BTW, why do folks keep wanting to keep Cawl back, he is a Melee machine, there is nothing you can't do reroll-wise in the Shooting phase with Cawl that a TDP can't do. I don't run Cawl, I have had one time where I wished I had the Archmagos ability, but that isn't worth the additional 100 points in my opinion.

Pedroig wrote:


BTW, why do folks keep wanting to keep Cawl back, he is a Melee machine, there is nothing you can't do reroll-wise in the Shooting phase with Cawl that a TDP can't do. I don't run Cawl, I have had one time where I wished I had the Archmagos ability, but that isn't worth the additional 100 points in my opinion.

There is a huge difference between Cawl and a TPD e.g. when double tapping Kastellans, or using Kataphrons (which is not advised). I would take Cawl if he had 1 wound and no armor over a TPD any day of the week just because of his rerolls. Only rerolling 1s might be nice for skitarii units but you have the canticle for that. Looking at Cawl what he can dish out in melee plus his +1 -1 modification...sorry but to say there is nothing Cawl can do that a TPD can't do is just...wrong in a lot of ways (even if one is only talking about the shooting phase. rerolling every roll compared to rerolling 1s? please).

Really assuming targeting a space marine char in power armour with TA
No reroll
3+ to hit 3+ to wound 5+ save
0.30 success rate= 2 wounds
Fireing 6 arquebuses =3.555 wounds + 1 mortal =4.5555

With rerole all to hit roles
0.395 success rate=2 wounds
Fireing six arquebuses 4.74 wound +1mortal =5.74

Since sm characters need 5 wounds to kill and assuming variance you need at least 6 possibly 7 with the rerole
@pedroig
Also you may wish to check a dictionary arquebuses is the correct plural

Pedroig wrote:
@U02dah4Made

BTW, why do folks keep wanting to keep Cawl back, he is a Melee machine, there is nothing you can't do reroll-wise in the Shooting phase with Cawl that a TDP can't do. I don't run Cawl, I have had one time where I wished I had the Archmagos ability, but that isn't worth the additional 100 points in my opinion.

Hes a turn 4-5 Melee guy(Or earlier as defense to your robots, but if its early then its not going well for you...). He needs to stay in the very back and give your robots and spider tanks rerolls.

He is 100% NOT a melee machine. Avg of 7 STR 5 attacks is meh. His Axe isn't horrible to kill guys like Termines or get locked in with a horde, but hes far from a beatstick. The robots need that reroll 2's and 3's to really bring the pain. Reroll 2s and 3s is 100% worth it.

str00dles1 wrote:

Pedroig wrote:
@U02dah4Made

BTW, why do folks keep wanting to keep Cawl back, he is a Melee machine, there is nothing you can't do reroll-wise in the Shooting phase with Cawl that a TDP can't do. I don't run Cawl, I have had one time where I wished I had the Archmagos ability, but that isn't worth the additional 100 points in my opinion.

Hes a turn 4-5 Melee guy(Or earlier as defense to your robots, but if its early then its not going well for you...). He needs to stay in the very back and give your robots and spider tanks rerolls.

He is 100% NOT a melee machine. Avg of 7 STR 5 attacks is meh. His Axe isn't horrible to kill guys like Termines or get locked in with a horde, but hes far from a beatstick. The robots need that reroll 2's and 3's to really bring the pain. Reroll 2s and 3s is 100% worth it.

This is completely accurate. He makes the Kastelens what they are, and I wouldn't even DREAM of any sort of Kataphron without him. I'd agree you can get buy with a TPD for Onager/Skitarii, but the Bots of any kind need him to get any kind of mileage.

U02dah4 wrote:
Also you may wish to check a dictionary arquebuses is the correct plural

A gem! I was calling them arquebii. Thanks!

U02dah4 wrote:
Also you may wish to check a dictionary arquebuses is the correct plural

Correct, what I get for checking the results page rather than clicking the link...

Not from Mars, so Cawl doesn't do me much good anyway, and don't seem to have much of a problem without him...

Pedroig wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
Also you may wish to check a dictionary arquebuses is the correct plural

Correct, what I get for checking the results page rather than clicking the link...

Not from Mars, so Cawl doesn't do me much good anyway, and don't seem to have much of a problem without him...

You might not have a ton of issues without him, but he only adds positives to the army.

This goes back to an issue on fluff, which is fine. But you can easily take Cawls Mars and replace it with your own world you are using. Until a Codex comes out (which could be months and months) it doesn't matter he has a label of mars. You can literally say all of your guys to keep your fluff are of planet bluebobjimbo and he is the leader of the planet.

Where it does matter is in a tourney setting, which then youd take Cawl or no reason at this point to play Admech.

We're all "Mars" now

str00dles1 wrote:


You might not have a ton of issues without him, but he only adds positives to the army.

This goes back to an issue on fluff, which is fine. But you can easily take Cawls Mars and replace it with your own world you are using. Until a Codex comes out (which could be months and months) it doesn't matter he has a label of mars. You can literally say all of your guys to keep your fluff are of planet bluebobjimbo and he is the leader of the planet.

Where it does matter is in a tourney setting, which then you'd take Cawl or no reason at this point to play Admech.

I don't disagree with point 1, for some reason I was remembering they both allowed rerolls of 1's, hnece my "confusion".

For Tourney, I'd keep my fluff, my 1, 3, 6, 12 groups and no Cawl. I'm old, stubborn, and have found that at the end of the day, Mathammer isn't the whole game...

Over 20 years it has been rare for me to put a list with GW named characters in them. Was the nice thing about the old "Chapter Master" and its ilk of "add ons" to character models...

Awesome post! Reading through some of this has helped a newb such as myself alot! Could anyone perhaps suggest a decent start force for say a 500 army which is easy to build upon going up to 1000 and beyond?

The start collecting box should get you pretty close to 400-500 points. Add in one more unit of your choice (if you want, you may not have to honestly) and you should be pretty good to go. One start collecting box could get you 1 TPD, 1 Onager, and 2 small infantry squads of rangers/vanguard

I did a 500 pt TDP, 6 man Vanguard w/ 2 Cavaliers, 6 man Rangers with 2 Arquebuses, and a Arrayed Onager, was just under 500, if you go two 5 man, you'll be right at 450 or so.

If you want real easy to build on for ~500 points, Get a Knight magnetize the arm bits and the carapace, and you'll be in the 450-625 range with it all the time...

Kallius wrote:
Awesome post! Reading through some of this has helped a newb such as myself alot! Could anyone perhaps suggest a decent start force for say a 500 army which is easy to build upon going up to 1000 and beyond?

Best bet is as others stated buy the start collecting.

If you really like them, and want a solid force with options id grab the following.

4 Boxes Start collecting, 2 boxes of Robots, Cawl, Knight titan, Box of Infiltrators

Obviously a crap ton of $, but that's what id grab