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 Aaranis wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

INFANTRY are assumed to be able to scale walls and traverse through windows, doors and portals readily. These models can therefore move through the floors and walls of a ruin without further impediment.

Yea, so no restrictions on movement through terrain that I can see for vehicles excluding where it applies to multi-story ruins.

The detail is in these words, it says only infantry can move through walls, therefore vehicles can't move through walls.

Of course you can pass through the ruins as long as you don't try to cross the walls like in V7, no problems there.

Yeah, the writer did a bad job on the presentation of information.

I wish he just wrote something like this:
1) Infantry have the ability to pass through obstacles unimpeded.
2) Infantry have the ability to climb ruins.

And then give us the cover characteristics of terrain.

Iago40k wrote:
played against ynnari harlequins yesterday. Heavy loss caused by maelstrom missions, deadlock is just not good for AdMech. IN the end i had 2 dakkastelans and 4 onagers left, he had 1 empty starweaver and 3 jetbikes. After a lot of games against first turn charge armies I am not too keen on using large screens. I use 3 to 4 vanguard units with 5 models. That is simply put enough. Against the Harleys I wouldn't have needed them at all since they are only good for the enemy to trigger soulburst more often and sooner. Larger screens such as 50 conscripts are too stale to use. Our robots and crawlers are fast but will be slowed down by those conscripts. They lack output as well. So, I am certainly in between but i yet have to face a force where I really need a larger screen than 20 models.

Yeah, as I stated before, I don't think the Conscript plan is viable unless you're willing to accept that your only win condition is to table your opponent with extremely long-ranged artillery.

I cut all of the Vanguard from my 2000-point list awhile ago. I use 4 Dragoons and a Crusader as my screen.

Here is my list by the way:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/730618.page

Saw that list and liked it but it seems so weak for maelstrom...holding objectives with that low amount of models seem to to be unlikely but Id love to hear you out.

Fairly new Ad Mech player here (returning to 40K after a several year hiatus) and I just bought my first box of Kastellans and wanted to run some thoughts through here.

So Dakkastellan seems like the premier build, and it's pretty clear to see why. 18 S5 AP-1 Phosphor blast per model negating cover saves is beastly. Putting together my forces so far (to date, a Start Collecting box, one set of infiltrators and now 2 Kastellans) what it really seems like the army is missing is some serious high strength punching power (outside of Neutron Lasers on an Onager).

Number crunching two models with Kastellan Fists and Conquerer Protocol vs two models with Heavy Phosphor and Protector against a high Toughness target (I picked a Leman Russ as an example). I came up with this:

Fists:
12 attacks, 6 hits, 4 wounds, -.6666 saved, times 3 damage is about 10 inflicted wounds
(again, against a T7 Sv 3+ target)

with the Phosphor, it looks something like this:
36 shots, 18 hits, 6 wounds, -2 saved equals 4 inflicted wounds

In this scenario, it seems like the Kastellans have a slightly worse than average chance of one shotting a 12 w model like the Russ in a single combat round?

My question to more experienced 40K/Ad Mech players than I is that with several other units that can dish out large numbers of low damage attacks (like the Electro Priests, Icarus Onagers or even Vanguards with Radium Carbines) does Ad Mech need another-barrage-of-fire unit in the Kastellans and is there a need something to fill the punchy CC unit roll (I hear both Dragoons and Sicarians fail at this).

Don't steal :O

Just got paid yesterday and ebay'd a little. I decided as my FLUFFY Jupiter allies will be jovian 1057th Cogs of War, buying tech thralls to use as scions with hot shots and mitra locks as volley guns. I don't want to horde and I want my list mainly mech heavy kastelans,servitors, ect, and a thanatar when fires of something comes out for the whole legio cybernetica theme.

Forge world Jupiters moon of calispso is a hive/manufacturing world (canon) and they will be a eltite tech guard/pdf of it. (not canon)

Thoughts?

Iago40k wrote:
Saw that list and liked it but it seems so weak for maelstrom...holding objectives with that low amount of models seem to to be unlikely but Id love to hear you out.

The game plan is to use artillery to blow up units and then have the Dragoons mop up and grab objectives. But yeah, the low model count is a concern for me as well. I originally ran 6 Dragoons and 3 Crawlers, but I began to think that was not enough artillery. Having an odd number of Crawlers is also a problem; I would much rather have two a large distance apart with overlapping fields of fire. (If you charge one pair, they can fall back and the other pair doesn't need to do gymnastics to get out of the way before shooting back.) I may go back if this doesn't work out.

 kinetoscopic wrote:
Fairly new Ad Mech player here (returning to 40K after a several year hiatus) and I just bought my first box of Kastellans and wanted to run some thoughts through here.

So Dakkastellan seems like the premier build, and it's pretty clear to see why. 18 S5 AP-1 Phosphor blast per model negating cover saves is beastly. Putting together my forces so far (to date, a Start Collecting box, one set of infiltrators and now 2 Kastellans) what it really seems like the army is missing is some serious high strength punching power (outside of Neutron Lasers on an Onager).

Number crunching two models with Kastellan Fists and Conquerer Protocol vs two models with Heavy Phosphor and Protector against a high Toughness target (I picked a Leman Russ as an example). I came up with this:

Fists:
12 attacks, 6 hits, 4 wounds, -.6666 saved, times 3 damage is about 10 inflicted wounds
(again, against a T7 Sv 3+ target)

with the Phosphor, it looks something like this:
36 shots, 18 hits, 6 wounds, -2 saved equals 4 inflicted wounds

In this scenario, it seems like the Kastellans have a slightly worse than average chance of one shotting a 12 w model like the Russ in a single combat round?

My question to more experienced 40K/Ad Mech players than I is that with several other units that can dish out large numbers of low damage attacks (like the Electro Priests, Icarus Onagers or even Vanguards with Radium Carbines) does Ad Mech need another-barrage-of-fire unit in the Kastellans and is there a need something to fill the punchy CC unit roll (I hear both Dragoons and Sicarians fail at this).

Well, I wouldn't use Kastelans to shoot a tank to death; that is what Neutron Crawlers are for. Furthermore, if you can get a Kastelan close enough to punch a tank, then yes, I can see that working, but the problem is that Kastelans are not the most durable unit we have. Given their point cost, footslogging them across the field seems insanely risky.

 kinetoscopic wrote:
Fairly new Ad Mech player here (returning to 40K after a several year hiatus) and I just bought my first box of Kastellans and wanted to run some thoughts through here.

So Dakkastellan seems like the premier build, and it's pretty clear to see why. 18 S5 AP-1 Phosphor blast per model negating cover saves is beastly. Putting together my forces so far (to date, a Start Collecting box, one set of infiltrators and now 2 Kastellans) what it really seems like the army is missing is some serious high strength punching power (outside of Neutron Lasers on an Onager).

Number crunching two models with Kastellan Fists and Conquerer Protocol vs two models with Heavy Phosphor and Protector against a high Toughness target (I picked a Leman Russ as an example). I came up with this:

Fists:
12 attacks, 6 hits, 4 wounds, -.6666 saved, times 3 damage is about 10 inflicted wounds
(again, against a T7 Sv 3+ target)

with the Phosphor, it looks something like this:
36 shots, 18 hits, 6 wounds, -2 saved equals 4 inflicted wounds

In this scenario, it seems like the Kastellans have a slightly worse than average chance of one shotting a 12 w model like the Russ in a single combat round?

My question to more experienced 40K/Ad Mech players than I is that with several other units that can dish out large numbers of low damage attacks (like the Electro Priests, Icarus Onagers or even Vanguards with Radium Carbines) does Ad Mech need another-barrage-of-fire unit in the Kastellans and is there a need something to fill the punchy CC unit roll (I hear both Dragoons and Sicarians fail at this).

Phosphor or heavy phosphor?

Deshkar wrote:

 kinetoscopic wrote:
Fairly new Ad Mech player here (returning to 40K after a several year hiatus) and I just bought my first box of Kastellans and wanted to run some thoughts through here.

So Dakkastellan seems like the premier build, and it's pretty clear to see why. 18 S5 AP-1 Phosphor blast per model negating cover saves is beastly. Putting together my forces so far (to date, a Start Collecting box, one set of infiltrators and now 2 Kastellans) what it really seems like the army is missing is some serious high strength punching power (outside of Neutron Lasers on an Onager).

Number crunching two models with Kastellan Fists and Conquerer Protocol vs two models with Heavy Phosphor and Protector against a high Toughness target (I picked a Leman Russ as an example). I came up with this:

Fists:
12 attacks, 6 hits, 4 wounds, -.6666 saved, times 3 damage is about 10 inflicted wounds
(again, against a T7 Sv 3+ target)

with the Phosphor, it looks something like this:
36 shots, 18 hits, 6 wounds, -2 saved equals 4 inflicted wounds

In this scenario, it seems like the Kastellans have a slightly worse than average chance of one shotting a 12 w model like the Russ in a single combat round?

My question to more experienced 40K/Ad Mech players than I is that with several other units that can dish out large numbers of low damage attacks (like the Electro Priests, Icarus Onagers or even Vanguards with Radium Carbines) does Ad Mech need another-barrage-of-fire unit in the Kastellans and is there a need something to fill the punchy CC unit roll (I hear both Dragoons and Sicarians fail at this).

Phosphor or heavy phosphor?

Ah! Good catch. Heavy, but at S6 vs S5 it doesn't change the math and I think I got the AP -2 right. Though S6 is certainly a big deal against T3...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Suzuteo wrote:

Well, I wouldn't use Kastelans to shoot a tank to death; that is what Neutron Crawlers are for. Furthermore, if you can get a Kastelan close enough to punch a tank, then yes, I can see that working, but the problem is that Kastelans are not the most durable unit we have. Given their point cost, footslogging them across the field seems insanely risky.

True! Though with Aegis there's a 2+/4++ running up causing mortal wounds 1/3 of the time they save with invuln.

I guess the follow-up question here becomes: is the loss of the Heavy Phosphor battery that they two of them become in Protector mode irreplaceable. And would gaining a CC can opener any consolation?

 kinetoscopic wrote:

True! Though with Aegis there's a 2+/4++ running up causing mortal wounds 1/3 of the time they save with invuln.

I guess the follow-up question here becomes: is the loss of the Heavy Phosphor battery that they two of them become in Protector mode irreplaceable. And would gaining a CC can opener any consolation?

Neutron Lasers do what Kastelan Fists do, but better since it has 48 times the range and more AP and damage. So Kastelans won't be replacing Crawlers in the anti-tank role any time soon.

How about other roles? CC screening unit? Electro-Priests are way more stat efficient. Skirmisher? Dragoons move faster and have better durability per point. Infiltrators can deep strike.

Suzuteo wrote:

 kinetoscopic wrote:

True! Though with Aegis there's a 2+/4++ running up causing mortal wounds 1/3 of the time they save with invuln.

I guess the follow-up question here becomes: is the loss of the Heavy Phosphor battery that they two of them become in Protector mode irreplaceable. And would gaining a CC can opener any consolation?

Neutron Lasers do what Kastelan Fists do, but better since it has 48 times the range and more AP and damage. So Kastelans won't be replacing Crawlers in the anti-tank role any time soon.

How about other roles? CC screening unit? Electro-Priests are way more stat efficient. Skirmisher? Dragoons move faster and have better durability per point. Infiltrators can deep strike.

Well, I'll drop my final two cents here because I'm definitely aware I'm going against the established wisdom. But the numbers seem kind of reasonable when you compare the Fistellans to other units (again vs a Russ as my example)

Onager with a Neutron Laser (135 pts)
4/3 hits, 8/9 wound, no save, average of 4ish damage

Kastellan with Fists (115-121 pts)
1.5 (or 3) hits, 1 (or 2) wound, 1/6 (or 1/3) saved, average of 2.5ish (or 5) damage

And as far as survivability vs a Dragoon's:
A Dragoon is 6, 6T wounds and a 4+ save (-1 hit) for 68-74 points
A Kastellan is 6, 7T wounds with a 3+/5++ or 2+/5++ for 115-121 points

The Dragoon's definitely more efficient W for point-wise, but is miserable in it's attack vs an armored target (e.g. Russ):
2 hits, 4/3 wound, 8/9 wounds saved for 1/3 of a wound (not counting the 1/6 chance of tripling your hits)

I guess I was wondering if a high strength punchy unit had a place in an Ad Mech list. No one's come right out and told me I'm crazy yet... I guess I'll have to try it.

Yes you could probably build a list around Kastelans with fists. They move 8" for some reason. Compare them to dreadnoughts and Hellbrutes. And don't forget the extra attacks from protocols and +1 Strength et al from Canticles.

 kinetoscopic wrote:

Suzuteo wrote:

 kinetoscopic wrote:

True! Though with Aegis there's a 2+/4++ running up causing mortal wounds 1/3 of the time they save with invuln.

I guess the follow-up question here becomes: is the loss of the Heavy Phosphor battery that they two of them become in Protector mode irreplaceable. And would gaining a CC can opener any consolation?

Neutron Lasers do what Kastelan Fists do, but better since it has 48 times the range and more AP and damage. So Kastelans won't be replacing Crawlers in the anti-tank role any time soon.

How about other roles? CC screening unit? Electro-Priests are way more stat efficient. Skirmisher? Dragoons move faster and have better durability per point. Infiltrators can deep strike.

Well, I'll drop my final two cents here because I'm definitely aware I'm going against the established wisdom. But the numbers seem kind of reasonable when you compare the Fistellans to other units (again vs a Russ as my example)

Onager with a Neutron Laser (135 pts)
4/3 hits, 8/9 wound, no save, average of 4ish damage

Kastellan with Fists (115-121 pts)
1.5 (or 3) hits, 1 (or 2) wound, 1/6 (or 1/3) saved, average of 2.5ish (or 5) damage

And as far as survivability vs a Dragoon's:
A Dragoon is 6, 6T wounds and a 4+ save (-1 hit) for 68-74 points
A Kastellan is 6, 7T wounds with a 3+/5++ or 2+/5++ for 115-121 points

The Dragoon's definitely more efficient W for point-wise, but is miserable in it's attack vs an armored target (e.g. Russ):
2 hits, 4/3 wound, 8/9 wounds saved for 1/3 of a wound (not counting the 1/6 chance of tripling your hits)

I guess I was wondering if a high strength punchy unit had a place in an Ad Mech list. No one's come right out and told me I'm crazy yet... I guess I'll have to try it.

It's fine to go against established wisdom, it's just that the math doesn't bear out. Neutron Laser has more range, more damage, and the body is more mobile, durable, and efficient. By going Phosphor Kastelan, at least you get to do something the Neutron Crawler cannot do well.

Yeah, Dragoon attack is mediocre. But the idea is to have the artillery doing all the damage while the Dragoon is a screening unit and objective grabber that can mop up. Infiltrators also work, but they are somewhat squishy.

Well, if you try it, let us know how it does. =\

Suzuteo wrote:

Well, if you try it, let us know how it does. =\

Will do!

I'm curious as well, I'd love to model my next Robots with Fists but didn't playtest them yet. I can see it working alongside a second unit with full Blasters. Keeping the Aegis Protocols while they're running up the board and the Datasmith close by should let them soak up a bit of fire and return mortal wounds on 5 or 6. Furthermore they will scare the hell out of characters and other tough units the opponent might have, so he'll have to do something before the Robots come out to punch his tanks (I just love to represent this in my head). Don't forget that your Datasmith have a decent anti-armour pistol too, that might just take off the few missing wounds you'd need.

Run in Aegis mode, then the turn before your charges turn on the Conqueror protocols. You'll still be protected by Aegis for the turn where your opponent will shoot at them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Magos-Macrotek-Danny wrote:
Don't steal :O

Just got paid yesterday and ebay'd a little. I decided as my FLUFFY Jupiter allies will be jovian 1057th Cogs of War, buying tech thralls to use as scions with hot shots and mitra locks as volley guns. I don't want to horde and I want my list mainly mech heavy kastelans,servitors, ect, and a thanatar when fires of something comes out for the whole legio cybernetica theme.

Forge world Jupiters moon of calispso is a hive/manufacturing world (canon) and they will be a eltite tech guard/pdf of it. (not canon)

Thoughts?

Love the idea, I had the same idea about getting Scions as allied affiliated to my Forge-World but kept the regular models as I think they're beautiful (and not too keen on buying FW models considering the price), just used a darker blue for their colours. I took the time to convert a Lord Commissar so that he looks cyborg, I'll post a pic someday

 Aaranis wrote:

Run in Aegis mode, then the turn before your charges turn on the Conqueror protocols. You'll still be protected by Aegis for the turn where your opponent will shoot at them.

Only if you went first. If you went second the Aegis protocol will not save you since protocols switch at the start of the battle round.

Iago40k wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:

Run in Aegis mode, then the turn before your charges turn on the Conqueror protocols. You'll still be protected by Aegis for the turn where your opponent will shoot at them.

Only if you went first. If you went second the Aegis protocol will not save you since protocols switch at the start of the battle round.

Don't you start the game in Aegis mode?

You do. But if you go second and run upfield and switch your protocol, the switch will happen at the start of the next battle round. So your opponent can shoot at them while melee protocol is active.

 Aaranis wrote:
I'm curious as well, I'd love to model my next Robots with Fists but didn't playtest them yet. I can see it working alongside a second unit with full Blasters. Keeping the Aegis Protocols while they're running up the board and the Datasmith close by should let them soak up a bit of fire and return mortal wounds on 5 or 6. Furthermore they will scare the hell out of characters and other tough units the opponent might have, so he'll have to do something before the Robots come out to punch his tanks (I just love to represent this in my head). Don't forget that your Datasmith have a decent anti-armour pistol too, that might just take off the few missing wounds you'd need.

Run in Aegis mode, then the turn before your charges turn on the Conqueror protocols. You'll still be protected by Aegis for the turn where your opponent will shoot at them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Magos-Macrotek-Danny wrote:
Don't steal :O

Just got paid yesterday and ebay'd a little. I decided as my FLUFFY Jupiter allies will be jovian 1057th Cogs of War, buying tech thralls to use as scions with hot shots and mitra locks as volley guns. I don't want to horde and I want my list mainly mech heavy kastelans,servitors, ect, and a thanatar when fires of something comes out for the whole legio cybernetica theme.

Forge world Jupiters moon of calispso is a hive/manufacturing world (canon) and they will be a eltite tech guard/pdf of it. (not canon)

Thoughts?

Love the idea, I had the same idea about getting Scions as allied affiliated to my Forge-World but kept the regular models as I think they're beautiful (and not too keen on buying FW models considering the price), just used a darker blue for their colours. I took the time to convert a Lord Commissar so that he looks cyborg, I'll post a pic someday

Scions + Infiltrators is an interesting screening choice. They are pricey for what they would be doing, but the ability to threaten opponents 9" from their deployment is really big. Your Crawlers will likely be in range to support them and everything. Of course, if they deepstrike you in return, you won't have much to stop them, so artillery deployment and mutual protection is key.

Arachnofiend wrote:

Iago40k wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:

Run in Aegis mode, then the turn before your charges turn on the Conqueror protocols. You'll still be protected by Aegis for the turn where your opponent will shoot at them.

Only if you went first. If you went second the Aegis protocol will not save you since protocols switch at the start of the battle round.

Don't you start the game in Aegis mode?

To be clear, you are set up in Aegis mode, and you can attempt to switch at the start of your movement phase. If successful, you have to wait until the start of the next round for the protocol to switch. It is preferable to go first because your Aegis will be in effect during your opponent's turn; if you go second, your Conquerer will be in effect, which makes you wayyy squishier.

Oh I never noticed that the protocol change didn't start until the next battle round! This changes things ...

Just played a game against my sons Necrons and achieved a 9-7 victory after 5 1/2 turns, he conceded at the end of his turn six.

High points were turn one when my Neutronager three shot a unit of Destroyers and killed them all. He deep struck a unit of 15 Flayed Ones in my backfield but failed to make his charge, needed 8" to get within 1" of my Fulgarites. Rolled a 6 and a 1, used a command point and rolled 1 again. In my turn I killed four with shooting, failed my charge with my Knight Gallant but rolled 11" with the Fulgarites and wiped the rest out in combat, loosing only one in return.

Turn two my Icarus Onager dropped his Ghost Arc and my Vindicare Assassin took out his warlord (with a little help from a five man unit of Rangers with two TA's. My dakkabots were not able to take out his 20 man blob of warriors but did a number on a ten man group of Immortals.

At the end I had both of my TPD's my Datasmith, both robots, both Onagers, a five man squad of Rangers. five Infiltrators and from a Vanguard detachment Inquisitor Greyfax, a Vindicare Assassin two Crusaders and two Death Cult Assassins. The Crusaders and DCA's spent the game sitting on an objective that was out of the way enough he never had an opportunity to shoot at them. He had one Lord and about 10 Warriors. Had he not conceded both Onagers were lined up to shoot his Lord. The Warriors were safe as they were locked in combat with my last Fulgarite.

All and all a very fun game that could have gone very differently had his Flayed Ones made that charge into my Fulgarites. This was our first 8th game so to keep it simple we were playing 100 power level lists.

What are your thoughts on the Vindicare? Been thinking about taking him as well (and/or Culexus).

 temoinlanuit wrote:
What are your thoughts on the Vindicare? Been thinking about taking him as well (and/or Culexus).

5 Skitarii Rangers with 2 Arquebuses are much, much better than a Vindicare. On paper, the Vindicare looks impressive with 2+ WS and Exitus Rifle, which has 12" more range and 2+ to wound infantry. However, Rangers get rerolls from Cawl and TDP, which really brings up their to hit. And though they have a lower chance to wound T4 and up infantry, on a 6+, they deal a mortal wound instead of one bonus regular wound on average. But the real killer? They get double the number of shots.

And Culexus is not really as important since psychic is not as broken as it was in 7th.

Played a game vs blood angels (razorbacks, laspred, death company, sang guard) with someing close to my knight list posted earlier. Thing I did different: swap ironstriders for 3 plasdestroyers (and some other point juggles on wargear).

Things noted:
-Neutron + icarus killed pred in cover turn one.
-Trans you arq put 4 wounds on assback to finish that off.
-Knight putnot much wounds out initiallybut guarded my whole -right flank by himself.
-10 man vanguard squad made fine enough melee bubble wrap. 5 man rangers as deepstrike bubble wrap worked fine
-trip kastelens ate death co and any marines they could get there hands ? On.
-destroyers killed twice their points in sang guard then went forth to shoot 'backs with effectiveness.


In all, like the arty list. Still have huge, gaping mobility problem. Hammer and anvil helped my shooting, but made it so I had to hold my infiltrator still turn three when is hoped to have nearly tabled him by then so they wouldn't get shot trying for his obj.

LOL. WE GOT OUR FIRST NERF:

Page 76 – Sicarian Infiltrators
Change the Attacks value on the Sicarian Infiltrator profile line to read ‘2’.
Change the Attacks value on the Sicarian Princeps profile line to read ‘3’

Also, Crawlers got clarified:

Page 78 – Onager Dunecrawler, Damage Table
Change the first value under Remaining W to read ‘6-11+’.

Link here:
https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/40K_8th_ed_Update_Index_Imperium_2_ver_1.0.pdf

Suzuteo wrote:

 temoinlanuit wrote:
What are your thoughts on the Vindicare? Been thinking about taking him as well (and/or Culexus).

5 Skitarii Rangers with 2 Arquebuses are much, much better than a Vindicare. On paper, the Vindicare looks impressive with 2+ WS and Exitus Rifle, which has 12" more range and 2+ to wound infantry. However, Rangers get rerolls from Cawl and TDP, which really brings up their to hit. And though they have a lower chance to wound T4 and up infantry, on a 6+, they deal a mortal wound instead of one bonus regular wound on average. But the real killer? They get double the number of shots.

And Culexus is not really as important since psychic is not as broken as it was in 7th.

Good call. Haven't mathed it out, but intuitively holds up. The only trouble I see is that with the amount of heavy support, can be trouble to keep everything within Cawl/TPD's bubble.

Also, weird with the Infiltrator nerfs. They weren't one of our best units, IMO.

Anyone finding Dragoons/Ironstriders hard to fit in?

Any time I got to Ironstriders, I'd rather go up to Onagers or down to Scout Sentinels w/ Lascannons. Ironstriders are so far up field they don't get TPD/Cawl either.

Any time I go to Dragoons, the tasers seem mushy and low output (attacks-wise) for the cost of the platform. Flamer scout sentinels seem better for the up field role.

Love the models and trying hard to find a role for them.

 temoinlanuit wrote:

Good call. Haven't mathed it out, but intuitively holds up. The only trouble I see is that with the amount of heavy support, can be trouble to keep everything within Cawl/TPD's bubble.

Also, weird with the Infiltrator nerfs. They weren't one of our best units, IMO.

Anyone finding Dragoons/Ironstriders hard to fit in?

Any time I got to Ironstriders, I'd rather go up to Onagers or down to Scout Sentinels w/ Lascannons. Ironstriders are so far up field they don't get TPD/Cawl either.

Any time I go to Dragoons, the tasers seem mushy and low output (attacks-wise) for the cost of the platform. Flamer scout sentinels seem better for the up field role.

Love the models and trying hard to find a role for them.

I'm a game designer by profession. Nerfs occur in two ways. Reducing the power of a strength or exacerbating a weakness. AdMech has the strongest artillery right now, and it would be harsh to nerf our Heavy Support across the board. So they nerf the best unit for mobility instead. (FYI, they clearly see us as a really competitive army.)

No. My list actually only uses Dragoons as screening units:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/730618.page

Think about it this way: Dragoons aren't there to kill units. That's your artillery's job; they outshoot everything pretty much in terms of range and power. What the Dragoons do is grab objectives that the artillery clears, mopping up weakened units, and tying up enemies in CC, either forcing shooting units and ICs to waste turns falling back or to get assaulters stuck in a slugging match with you rather than your artillery. They will die probably without killing too many things, but they buy your artillery another turn or two of shooting, which is the classic force multiplier.

Uh, it kills it for me, the nerf to the Infiltrators. Here I was wishing for a change from "Elite" to "HQ" for the Techpriest Enginseer, but no we had this.

In the few games I used them they didn't turned out good at all, if I have them Infiltrate they miss their 9" charge (even with CP) and if I footslog them they get shot to death due to the difficulty of hiding them with their enormous bases.

 Aaranis wrote:
Uh, it kills it for me, the nerf to the Infiltrators. Here I was wishing for a change from "Elite" to "HQ" for the Techpriest Enginseer, but no we had this.

In the few games I used them they didn't turned out good at all, if I have them Infiltrate they miss their 9" charge (even with CP) and if I footslog them they get shot to death due to the difficulty of hiding them with their enormous bases.

Yeah, they're bad now. They deal less damage per point than a Dragoon, but have less durability. Infiltrate doesn't make up for it. Similar point with Ruststalkers. Five more melee attacks.

Suzuteo wrote:

 temoinlanuit wrote:
What are your thoughts on the Vindicare? Been thinking about taking him as well (and/or Culexus).

5 Skitarii Rangers with 2 Arquebuses are much, much better than a Vindicare. On paper, the Vindicare looks impressive with 2+ WS and Exitus Rifle, which has 12" more range and 2+ to wound infantry. However, Rangers get rerolls from Cawl and TDP, which really brings up their to hit. And though they have a lower chance to wound T4 and up infantry, on a 6+, they deal a mortal wound instead of one bonus regular wound on average. But the real killer? They get double the number of shots.

And Culexus is not really as important since psychic is not as broken as it was in 7th.

The Rangers are good, but a five man unit with two TA's cost 100 points, compared to the Vindicares 90. The VA hits on a 2, the Rangers need a 4. You can get a re-roll to hit if you park close to a TPD or Cawl but that space is premium as you are also trying to put your robots and Onagers there. Having to bunch up all of your units within 6" of your HQ's really limits you deployment options. Also the VA wounding on a 2+, turning a 2+ armor save into a 5+ save and negating invulnerable saves makes it a much more consistent weapon.

But the big one is survivability. The Rangers will wilt to S4 firepower and there are lots of units that can throw out mass amounts of S4 shooting. The VA has a -2 to being shot at if he is in cover and a 4++ save but these aren't even needed because he is also a Character. As long as you deploy him with other units in front of him he can't even be targeted by your opponent. With the Exitus Rifles 72" range your options for deployment are massive.

I think he's better game wise than the Rangers but I did field 2 units of Rangers with 2 TA's each. I gave his characters a very hard time, and really made him think about moving his characters when he thought they would just have the run of his backfield.