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I agree, the Character keyword is the tiebreaker. Also assassins are better in pairs or even trios.

Suzuteo wrote:

 temoinlanuit wrote:

Good call. Haven't mathed it out, but intuitively holds up. The only trouble I see is that with the amount of heavy support, can be trouble to keep everything within Cawl/TPD's bubble.

Also, weird with the Infiltrator nerfs. They weren't one of our best units, IMO.

Anyone finding Dragoons/Ironstriders hard to fit in?

Any time I got to Ironstriders, I'd rather go up to Onagers or down to Scout Sentinels w/ Lascannons. Ironstriders are so far up field they don't get TPD/Cawl either.

Any time I go to Dragoons, the tasers seem mushy and low output (attacks-wise) for the cost of the platform. Flamer scout sentinels seem better for the up field role.

Love the models and trying hard to find a role for them.

I'm a game designer by profession. Nerfs occur in two ways. Reducing the power of a strength or exacerbating a weakness. AdMech has the strongest artillery right now, and it would be harsh to nerf our Heavy Support across the board. So they nerf the best unit for mobility instead. (FYI, they clearly see us as a really competitive army.)

No. My list actually only uses Dragoons as screening units:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/730618.page

Think about it this way: Dragoons aren't there to kill units. That's your artillery's job; they outshoot everything pretty much in terms of range and power. What the Dragoons do is grab objectives that the artillery clears, mopping up weakened units, and tying up enemies in CC, either forcing shooting units and ICs to waste turns falling back or to get assaulters stuck in a slugging match with you rather than your artillery. They will die probably without killing too many things, but they buy your artillery another turn or two of shooting, which is the classic force multiplier.

Any reason you're going with Dragoons in that role?

I'm thinking of running Penitent Engines for something similar.

Senseless nerf to Infiltrators. I will run them until we get transports since they have useful mobility vs our mostly static army. Such a dumb decision by GW.

I think the infiltrator "nerf" is just a typo fix like most of the things in the FAQ

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
I think the infiltrator "nerf" is just a typo fix like most of the things in the FAQ

Yeah. Before it didn't make any sense because they were basically better than Ruststalkers in every way, in addition to having deepstrike, which generally adds a major points hike.

The one problem with "nerfing to create a weakness" in Ad-mech is that you'd have to create a general weakness to the entire available roster to make that work. And the available roster is the entire Imperium.

Good day all.
Quick question about Canticles.
I saw on one Batrep that you can choose your Canticles and roll for them.
For instance, on the first battle round you choose Shroudpsalm and say on the second battle round you want to use it again, but you can't since you chose it and it can not be chosen again.
Can you then on the second battle round try to roll for it?

 Qu3nt wrote:
Good day all.
Quick question about Canticles.
I saw on one Batrep that you can choose your Canticles and roll for them.
For instance, on the first battle round you choose Shroudpsalm and say on the second battle round you want to use it again, but you can't since you chose it and it can not be chosen again.
Can you then on the second battle round try to roll for it?

yes you can and with cawl youve got a nice +1/-1 modifier on the result.

Awesome!
Thanks lago40K!

Although I agree, it probably wasn't a "nerf" as in this is them trying to rebalance infiltrators, but was indeed probaby a misprint, but it is a nerf in the sense, they took an already overcosted and particulary squishy unit and removed its main strength. 3 attacks that explode on 6s.

If I wasn't in love with the model(s), and if they weren't the only means of deepstrike currently, I'd say skip them. Simply not worth it. Right now, I am and most other Admech players I have talked to, view them as a neccesary evil. They take them not because they are good, but because they are all we have. Need to get that linebreaker, need something to attack/deepstrike something away from deployment. This is your only unit option.

I fear 10 attacks at 150 with no AP, for me may not be worth. I thought they were worth their points simply due to their rate of fire and attacks. 15 Macrostubbors and 15 attacks meant, they can throw out a bunch of "light" dakka and "light" attacks in they could get into melee. Now they still dish out lots of light dakka but deal average amount of attacks.

As a Tyranid player I can easily tell you 10 attacks without any AP is pretty crap. If I get a Ravenor squad or Hormagaunt into melee, and I am not throwing at least 30 dice, I assume they aren't going to do gak. Now I'm viewing this same concept with a much more expensive unit and a lot less hardy unit.

In short. They made an already questionably effective unit into a pigion holed unit. You take it now ONLY for deepstriking. It has no other purpose. Don't get me wrong, Admech as an army is still pretty darn strong, but its biggest weakness both in game mechanics and as an army, is it lacks diversity. It has a more redudancy units or units which are simply outclassed in the same field by more effeient points spending/other models that there is no reason to take them than all the other armies I have and played.

This has me very worried that we may see the first signs of 8th editions weakness, uninspired rules writers. I can't speak for the rest of you, but I hope when Admech Codex comes out, we get a complete overhaul. I'd rather see our whole army redone as I don't like the way it plays, nor do I like our rules. I'm not saying we should revert to 7th style (god, was that a rough edition... But if nothing else, all our units were cool and unique and had roles to fill, heck even the priests did, they were just overcosted) but after playing about 10 matches with Admech, I find that I'm leaning more and more towards using only select units instead of diverse forces. Pretty much the opposite of what I'm doing with all other armies; Tyranids, Guard, Marines, whom play very well with combined arms, Admech seem to be just bring big guns and don't bother with anything else.

Quick question guys, "Lithany of the electromancer"...We had some discussions about the rule and I'd like to ask you: If an enemy unit is in close combat (so in 1") to 2 of my units, do I roll one or two dice?

"Litany of the Electromancer
Roll a D6 for each enemy unit that
is within 1" of any affected units; on
a roll of 6, the unit being rolled for
suffers D3 mortal wounds."

Roll 1 die in your example. By wording, no matter how many sources, you only roll for one. However, one unit if in melee with three other enemy units would cause them all to roll a die each.

I recant! I just reread it like three times, you would indeed roll 2 dice in your example. As it says, "Roll a D6 for each enemy unit that is within 1" of any affected units"

I agree with Tsol I want admech redone back to a mobile gun line in the meantime I will take dunecrawlers as an artillery choice in imperial soup and that's it

I know it hurts fellows, but I think the infiltrator nerf isn't all that bad. You won't use them any differently.

However, I'd like the chance to talk about relative number of attacks here- there is general stat squish across the board and 2 base attacks is nothing to sneeze at any longer.

Indeed, consider that the powersword infiltrators put out as many attacks and wounds as vanguard veterans with powerswords. Toss in a certain cantacle and you can outclass them. Heck, can someone crunch the numbers compared to death company with chainswords?

I feel that 2 attacks is a standard for assault troops, and probably appropriate. 3 is for the real stabby stuff (Necron lords, champions, ruststalkers) and 4 are reserved for the buffed or the one trick pony uber attackers.

Just some musings. Where that leaves taser infiltrators, I'm not sure. But I am considering powrrswords now.

Have faith in the omnissiah.

This understrenght rule could potentially help us...though this must be the dumbest thing GW ever did...well 2nd dumbest, there is soulburst.

How is under strength dumb it's pretty balanced just makes filling out a formation cheaper but that's the same for everyone

U02dah4 wrote:
How is under strength dumb it's pretty balanced just makes filling out a formation cheaper but that's the same for everyone

for everyone? its just a real bonus for imperium soup and totally unnecessary. I can't see any TO using this. One can easily fill up whole brigade detachment to get an insane amount of CPs. There is only one kill point mission where it would matter that you have that high amount of MSU so there is almost no drawback.

Understrength. if you don't have enough models to make a minimum sized unit you can field what you have, but must pay the points cost as if it were a minimum sized unit. I don't see how this is an advantage, what am I missing?

 Solis Luna Astrum wrote:
Understrength. if you don't have enough models to make a minimum sized unit you can field what you have, but must pay the points cost as if it were a minimum sized unit. I don't see how this is an advantage, what am I missing?

The main real advantage is for transports; you can have 9 warriors and an overlord in a ghost ark, for example. All of these exploits people are putting out don't work because you still have to pay for 10 guys when you only brought the 1 guy in a unit.

Arachnofiend wrote:

 Solis Luna Astrum wrote:
Understrength. if you don't have enough models to make a minimum sized unit you can field what you have, but must pay the points cost as if it were a minimum sized unit. I don't see how this is an advantage, what am I missing?

The main real advantage is for transports; you can have 9 warriors and an overlord in a ghost ark, for example. All of these exploits people are putting out don't work because you still have to pay for 10 guys when you only brought the 1 guy in a unit.

Wow... that is some heavy duty TFG level stuff there. If someone pulled that with me and I knew they owned the requisite models, I would not play them. This is for people who literally don't own the models, not for people looking to game the system.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I managed to get in a 500pt game for my FLGS's Escalation League. I won just barely. It was a hell of a learning curve I I forgot so, so, so many things. So it isn't really indicative of anything. It was my first game of 40k since 5th Ed though and what a refreshing experience. GW did a bang up job on 8th!

Here is the list I am most likely bringing next week - especially since I have seen that folks are bringing flyers and hordes more than anything. The Icarus should help immensely.

Patrol Detachment (Mandatory)

HQ:
Tech-Priest Dominus (PL Limit, can't use Cawl until Week 3)
Volkite Blaster, Macrostubber
[135]

Elites:
Cybernetica Datasmith
Gamma, Power Fist
[52]

(5) Sicarian Infiltrators
Flechette & Tasers
[130]

Troops:
(5) Vanguard
2x Arc Rifles
[58]

(6) Vanguard
2x Plasma Calivers, Arc Maul
[73]

Heavy:
(2) Kastelan Robot
Triple Heavy Phosphor Blasters
[220]

Onager Dunecrawler
Icarus Array, Broad Spectrum Data-tether
[130]

[798]

Whatcha think, folks?

Bit off topic, but has anyone seen any rules for the Secutarii or the Haemotrope Reactor in 8th?

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

I managed to get in a 500pt game for my FLGS's Escalation League. I won just barely. It was a hell of a learning curve I I forgot so, so, so many things. So it isn't really indicative of anything. It was my first game of 40k since 5th Ed though and what a refreshing experience. GW did a bang up job on 8th!

Here is the list I am most likely bringing next week - especially since I have seen that folks are bringing flyers and hordes more than anything. The Icarus should help immensely.

Patrol Detachment (Mandatory)

HQ:
Tech-Priest Dominus (PL Limit, can't use Cawl until Week 3)
Volkite Blaster, Macrostubber
[135]

Elites:
Cybernetica Datasmith
Gamma, Power Fist
[52]

(5) Sicarian Infiltrators
Flechette & Tasers
[130]

Troops:
(5) Vanguard
2x Arc Rifles
[58]

(6) Vanguard
2x Plasma Calivers, Arc Maul
[73]

Heavy:
(2) Kastelan Robot
Triple Heavy Phosphor Blasters
[220]

Onager Dunecrawler
Icarus Array, Broad Spectrum Data-tether
[130]

[798]

Whatcha think, folks?

Wow people bring flyers in 500 pts game ? If you mean Drukhari Raiders or such okay but if that's Stormravens you guys have some mean players haha

I don't think the Plasma calivers are necessary at that point level, wouldn't you be better with more Arc weaponry ? Or just more Radium carbines to deal with such hordes. The good thing with Arc weaponry is that it's still S6 and AP-1, nice to deal with a bit of everything, the perfect TAC weapon in my opinion, I need to build some Vanguards with those. Other than that your list looks fine to me !

On another subject, I wish I had some Rocky Balboabots today in the 1500 pts game I had. List of my opponent was a Stormlord with 3 HWS and one Company Commander inside, one Plasma Obliterator with 3 HWS, one Firestorm Redoubt with 3 HWS, and one Imperial Bastion with Sgt. Telion and 9 Sniper Scouts camping in. My list was: 9 Vanguards (one plasma), 1 TPD with Ray, 2 Robots with HPB and Combustor each, 1 Datasmith, 5 Rangers, 5 Rangers with Omnispex and 2 Arquebuses, 5 Infiltrators with Tasers, 1 Laser Dunecrawler, 5 Sisters of Silence with swords, 1 Dragoon with Lance, 1 Taurox Prime with Lord Commissar and 5 Scions inside, and finally 1 Tempestor Prime and 1 Scions Command Squad with 2 Meltas and 2 Plasma rifles.

I get it that my opponent wanted to try a list but seriously screw me and my will to build TAC lists. He had 1st turn of course, and shot down my Sisters instantly (I just wanted to try them, why does nobody plays a regular list with Psykers in this store ) and did some other minor damage (I hid my army as best as the terrain allowed me), then I mercilessly spent four turns shooting down the Stormlord that was decimating my army, after that it was a race for who could grab the objectives in time. We ended 4-3 for him, I lost because my TPD needed a 6 to sprint to one objective and rolled a one (seriously).

Lesson learned: never get out without HEAVY ANTI-TANK WEAPONRY, because a lot of people in my store are going to abuse Super-Heavies like alcoholics at Oktoberfest and I have exactly 2 dedicated anti-armour units, the Laser Dunecrawler and the Command Squad (the squad dropped and took off 10W, the Neutron Laser had only one shooting phase before being destroyed and took off like 8W or something). The Robots didn't shoot hard enough and I didn't dare set them in Protector protocols because I had to keep my best saves and stay mobile, but had I fitted them with the Fists I assure you that Stormlord would've felt it sooner than that. What to say next ? Dragoon just took some shooting and went to die in Overwatch on the Stormlord (yeah now you can shoot at a vehicle if you see the head of the pilot and one antenna remember ?). Infiltrators got charged by the Stormlord but survived a bit and inflicted 1W with two guys alive. Happy of my Snipers but they didn't have any targets except for the Stormlord as everyone was inside a building. TPD and Datasmith were useful because of their resilience to contest objectives endgame, but I kept rolling ones to repair myself.

I placed 2 of the 4 objectives we had to set up dumbly because I didn't realise that it was I who could chose his side of the table before deployment and so I probably would've had better luck had I placed them better. Still, on the few games I played, only 3 had TAC lists. The rest was always a Super-Heavy like a Wraithknight in a 1000 pts game or Roboute and 3 other HQs at the same point level. In the game against the buildings and the Stormlord my Power Level was 71 and his was 102. I'll really ask for a Power Level of the same range as me for the next games, don't care if I appear picky, I'm tired of being nice with the poor lists I have to run all the time because I don't own enough models yet only to face indestructible lists.

End of the rant, feel free to ask questions


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jackal444 wrote:
Bit off topic, but has anyone seen any rules for the Secutarii or the Haemotrope Reactor in 8th?

Not yet for the Secutarii, we'll probably have to wait for the book Fires of Cyraxus from FW to have them. I can't wait to see if they're any good, but I'd prefer a transport to be honest No idea as for the Reactor though.

Arachnofiend wrote:

 Solis Luna Astrum wrote:
Understrength. if you don't have enough models to make a minimum sized unit you can field what you have, but must pay the points cost as if it were a minimum sized unit. I don't see how this is an advantage, what am I missing?

The main real advantage is for transports; you can have 9 warriors and an overlord in a ghost ark, for example. All of these exploits people are putting out don't work because you still have to pay for 10 guys when you only brought the 1 guy in a unit.

no you don't. You only pay for the models you take i.e. 1 in most cases. As stated in the faq.

You know, while I'm certainly not happy about the Infiltrator nerf, I still think they have an important role to play. The more I play, the more I think the ability to infiltrate is going to be a critical aspect of the game. I'm not talking top-tier tournament lists... just normally competitive, in-the-game-till-the-end kind of lists. Whatever our infiltrators are... good or bad, they're our only option for what appears to be a really important game mechanic. I know mine have been critically important in every game I've fielded them... even if they haven't gotten off their first-turn charges. Infiltrators allow you to react to anything, or force your opponent to react to what you do... buying you time and strategic advantage. I'm still going to use them until time and experience convinces me otherwise.

 Aaranis wrote:

Wow people bring flyers in 500 pts game ? If you mean Drukhari Raiders or such okay but if that's Stormravens you guys have some mean players haha

I don't think the Plasma calivers are necessary at that point level, wouldn't you be better with more Arc weaponry ? Or just more Radium carbines to deal with such hordes. The good thing with Arc weaponry is that it's still S6 and AP-1, nice to deal with a bit of everything, the perfect TAC weapon in my opinion, I need to build some Vanguards with those. Other than that your list looks fine to me !

Yea... I saw a pic of someone with two Stormtalons during a league match. Rude, right? But I got challenged so I know I am playing Marines so I am reverting to my original list, which will be easier for me to make anyhow (I have the laser almost finished).

HQ:
Tech-Priest Dominus
Volkite Blaster, Macrostubber
[135]

Elites:
Cybernetica Datasmith
Gamma, Power Fist
[52]

(5) Sicarian Infiltrators
Flechette & Tasers
[130]

Troops:
(5) Vanguard
2x Arc Rifles, Arc Maul
[62]

(5) Vanguard
2x Arc Rifles
[58]

Heavy:
(2) Kastelan Robot
Triple Heavy Phosphor Blasters
[220]

Onager Dunecrawler
Neutron Laser & Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad Spectrum Data-tether
[143]

[800]

Should put a hurt on some Marines, for sure. The Plasma in the other list was for point filler, but this one goes cheap. The Maul is because 4pt leftover and I have the model already painted up from Week 1!

Here is my Week 1 army on a table at my FLGS!

 Tsol wrote:
"Litany of the Electromancer
Roll a D6 for each enemy unit that
is within 1" of any affected units; on
a roll of 6, the unit being rolled for
suffers D3 mortal wounds."

Roll 1 die in your example. By wording, no matter how many sources, you only roll for one. However, one unit if in melee with three other enemy units would cause them all to roll a die each.

I recant! I just reread it like three times, you would indeed roll 2 dice in your example. As it says, "Roll a D6 for each enemy unit that is within 1" of any affected units"

This is incorrect. You roll 1 for models that are near any affected units as it says. or another way to say this with more words is you roll a dice if your within range of 1 or more units. I understand this confusing but any does many that you are affect once no matter how many models are within range of you. Take this as my TLDR as i will just be repeating myself below giving examples as you why you only roll 1 die.

First we will use the definition and then do a find and replace for the word any. and i will focus only on this line "Roll a D6 for each enemy unit that is within 1" of any affected units" as it's the only line that effects this and the meaning of this line changes the reading of what follows.

So onto our find and replace. First we must know that here any is an adjective that is modifing the word units along side the word affected. So going to dictionary.com and looking up the word any and it's most common us we can see the deifnition is: "one, a, an, or some; one or more without specification or identification." This definition can be used in find and replace and thier are two segments both meaning the same thing, "one, a, an, or some" and "one or more without specification or identification." SO in the line we can just copy and past this into the the rule we are trying to read and we can more clearly see what the rule says:

Roll a D6 for each enemy unit that is within 1" of one, a, an, or some affected unit

or


Roll a D6 for each enemy unit that is within 1" of one or more without specification or identification affected unit (note in this case to keep with grammer and flow, i would add either a "-" or a comma on either side of the "without specification or identifiaction" part to make it a more clear statement, but i didn't)

Now in both of these we can see that any in a lot of ways is the same thing as "any number of" or really it means one or more.... And so you'd only roll 1 time even if you surround a unit with 1 or 20 such units affected by the litany.

now if the definition doesn't help you we can use the word in the same way in other sentences, and do a question and reaction.

So lets say we are all on a fishing trip and i tell you; "People who catch any fish will get a prize" We can note that this is one prize reguarless of how many fish you catch. If you come up to me with 20 fish you'll get the same prize as the guy who caught one.

or we could do "People with any diseases aren't allowed out of the quarintine zone" as such we can see that your just as screwed if you have one disease or multiple.

In this way i hope we can all see that any is a word that quite clearly means one or more. Thus in cases where we see the world any please refrain from double dipping etc.

 Solis Luna Astrum wrote:
The Rangers are good, but a five man unit with two TA's cost 100 points, compared to the Vindicares 90. The VA hits on a 2, the Rangers need a 4. You can get a re-roll to hit if you park close to a TPD or Cawl but that space is premium as you are also trying to put your robots and Onagers there. Having to bunch up all of your units within 6" of your HQ's really limits you deployment options. Also the VA wounding on a 2+, turning a 2+ armor save into a 5+ save and negating invulnerable saves makes it a much more consistent weapon.

But the big one is survivability. The Rangers will wilt to S4 firepower and there are lots of units that can throw out mass amounts of S4 shooting. The VA has a -2 to being shot at if he is in cover and a 4++ save but these aren't even needed because he is also a Character. As long as you deploy him with other units in front of him he can't even be targeted by your opponent. With the Exitus Rifles 72" range your options for deployment are massive.

I think he's better game wise than the Rangers but I did field 2 units of Rangers with 2 TA's each. I gave his characters a very hard time, and really made him think about moving his characters when he thought they would just have the run of his backfield.

So think of it as paying 10 points to get two shots. Though to be fair, you also lose a Command Point if you are going with an Auxiliary Support detachment.

Rangers hit on rerollable 3s, so it's Vindicare's 83.33% to Rangers' 88.88%. The space is not that big a premium since as long as any model is within the bubble, you're fine. Kastelans are a good unit to pair with the Rangers anyway because both cannot move and shoot.

Vindicare is definitely more durable, but getting shot at is fine. Anything that can hit Rangers 60" away will probably be shooting my Kastelans or Crawlers first anyway.

Vindicare ignoring invulnerable saves is only more reliable than two shots if, all other factors holding equal, that invulnerable save is a 3++ (because two shots against 4++ yields an expected value of 1 shot).

 temoinlanuit wrote:

Any reason you're going with Dragoons in that role?

I'm thinking of running Penitent Engines for something similar.

Because I have them, they satisfy the role I need fulfilled, and they get reliable Shroudpsalm. You're right though. I should look into the Imperium Soup.

Not so sure about Penitent Engine though. 7" move is not too mobile. Anyone have recommendations for Fast Attack slots?

Iago40k wrote:
Quick question guys, "Lithany of the electromancer"...We had some discussions about the rule and I'd like to ask you: If an enemy unit is in close combat (so in 1") to 2 of my units, do I roll one or two dice?

One. I think. Here's my reasoning: For each enemy, you look if they are near any AdMech units a part of an AdMech detachment. If they are, roll one dice.

Suzuteo wrote:


Vindicare is definitely more durable, but getting shot at is fine. Anything that can hit Rangers 60" away will probably be shooting my Kastelans or Crawlers first anyway.

You cannot deploy your Rangers that far away from your opponent and still get re-rolls from your TPD unless you also deploy him far back. If you do that you then have to deploy your Kastelans close to the TPD or loose their re-rolls. That puts the robots out of range for at least one turn assuming your opponent moves toward your Kastelans. You can solve this by dedicating a second TPD to support your Rangers but then you loose the other abilities of that TPD. You've now added a 135 point tax to your unit of Rangers, that's 235 points to do what a Vindicare does by himself for 90 points.

I like the idea of adding a Vindicare too my force. But what is the best way without looosing Canticles of the Omnisiah?

 oOSkyOo wrote:
I like the idea of adding a Vindicare too my force. But what is the best way without looosing Canticles of the Omnisiah?

Probably just another Patrol Detachment. Inquisitor or Primaris Psyker, 1 conscript and the Assassin. You may find a cheaper HQ somewhere but since those can be psykers they are not too bad.
You can always go for an auxiliary detachment and loose 1 CP though.
Without going to abuse the understrenght rule it might be a Vanguard Detachment. Primaris psyker, Akoylte, Akolyte, Vindicare. 146 pts.

Iago40k wrote:

 oOSkyOo wrote:
I like the idea of adding a Vindicare too my force. But what is the best way without looosing Canticles of the Omnisiah?

Probably just another Patrol Detachment. Inquisitor or Primaris Psyker, 1 conscript and the Assassin. You may find a cheaper HQ somewhere but since those can be psykers they are not too bad.
You can always go for an auxiliary detachment and loose 1 CP though.
Without going to abuse the understrenght rule it might be a Vanguard Detachment. Primaris psyker, Akoylte, Akolyte, Vindicare. 146 pts.

agreed, this is one of the few niches for an Inquisitor. And consider just filling a Vanguard detachment with three assassins; Vindicares especially work better in twos and threes. Or mix with Tempestus Scions, who compliment AdMech very well.