Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Any thoughts on lower point games? 1k, 1250, 1.5k? I know we like our tourney 2k thought processes, but there could be lots of new tech priests that need some advice.

 gally912 wrote:
Any thoughts on lower point games? 1k, 1250, 1.5k? I know we like our tourney 2k thought processes, but there could be lots of new tech priests that need some advice.

Been playing mostly at 1k points myself. Finding I am tending to take robots out of the list - the datasmith tax is only 50 points, but he's 5% of the army at that point.

Replacing with strictly Onagers (Neutron/Icarus) and maxing out on heavy stubbers.

Not very comfortable with our HQ options (TPD) either - relatively expensive, and it's hard to make a TAC list that is well rounded enough that it's fun for both players and have him be effective.

Alternatively I've been toying with just including AdMech as part of a Imperium detachment with cheaper HQ choices (Canoness, Commissar, Tempestor Prime, etc.) and giving up canticles. Shroudsong and Blessings are the two most missed ones, but without Cawl, you don't have an above average chance of getting them either.

Just some random musings from a fairly new player, take it with a grain of salt

I agree, I play IG but dislike the Leman Russ so much in this edition that I got a couple start collecting boxes and love the Kastellan models so much I picked up a set. In my few games with friends I realized the dune crawlers are far superior to the robots, offensively that is. I did enjoy how much the Kastellans dictated my opponents reactions to them setting up in critical locations. Since most of my force is IG, I don't really need the heavy phosphor blasters since I can take care of light vehicles and hordes well enough so they'll probably go from smaller games. I do really like them as IG don't have much in the way of a unit that can take fire and make it to/hold a hot OBJ. I liked them for that.

All I know is, that a battalion of IG and a Vanguard (the heavy support detachment?) of Ad Mech is BRUTAL. Arquebusses are just enough to finish off whatever my ratlings are targeting. The threat bubble of Vanguard compliment my troops extremely well. The Rangers move up and help waste any horde units or trouble my conscripts get in. The onagers just wipe any enemy vehicles off the board. Love the Icarus Array too. Why would I ever choose the Hydra over that beast? Then my artillery hit whatever I want from safety of behind LoS blocking terrain. It's nasty.

Malygon wrote:
While I agree that having the threat of infiltrators looming over the enemy to cause more careful deployment and play while also providing the opportunity for exploiting overextension is important, I wonder if sicarians are really the best choice for that.

We can put another detachment on the board that simply shares the imperial keyword and that allows us to field other imperial deep strikers. We could use tempestus with plasma alongside their HQ, allowing them to reroll 1s when supercharging, thus being able to threaten vehicles or other important units. We can use notoriously hardy assault terminators with storm shields to tie up important targets.

I am still looking for the best option to use as deep strikers alongside AdMech but it seems sicarians aren't simply it and I fail to see a place for them in our army right now.

This. I have been looking into Imperium Soup myself, and I think that if I ever do drop my Crusader, it would be for a deep strike detachment, probably Arjac Rockfist (bonus attack plus reroll wound rolls of 1) + Wolf Guard Terminators (with Storm Shields and Thunder Hammers, yum). Oh, and some Plasma Grey Hunters in a Drop Pod for more mayhem.

Hmmm but why drop more dakka? We have everything we need in our arsenal when it comes tp range shooting and infis do at least a good job against infantry. Plus the drop has to have a little melee punch. Infis cover that as well

Iago40k wrote:
Hmmm but why drop more dakka? We have everything we need in our arsenal when it comes tp range shooting and infis do at least a good job against infantry. Plus the drop has to have a little melee punch. Infis cover that as well

Because you can't fix everything with slow moving dakka from your deployment zone. How do you deal with artillery? How do you deal with characters behind terrain giving buffs? How do you take objectives? Dropping supercharged plasma in rapid fire range that can reroll 1s can take down a lot of expensive things much faster than your regular dakka.

And if I want melee punch why should I take sicarians? They are a melee glascannon and are probably very dead the turn after dropping. They also have very limited uses and feel a bit wasted against Infantry. They feel simply too expensive for what they bring. I think dropping more sturdy melee specalists would help you more.

I have been kicking around a Tempestus contingent to pair with our artillery. Partially because I love the models and have a short-story I wrote years ago about a unit of Scions and I would love to paint them up!

HQ:
Tempestor Prime
Command Rod
[40]

Tempestor Prime
Command Rod
[40]

Troops:
(10) Tempestus Scions
4x Plasma Guns, Plasma Pistol
[123]

(10) Tempestus Scions
4x Plasma Guns, Plasma Pistol
[123]

(10) Tempestus Scions
4x Plasma Guns, Plasma Pistol
[123]

(10) Tempestus Scions
4x Plasma Guns, Plasma Pistol
[123]

[572]

At just shy of 600pt, it fits into the slot where our Knight usually is point-wise. 9 Plasma shots from each squad - so 36 total. With each Prime having two VoC, you can spread the "Take Aim!" onto all four units of Scions, meaning you can supercharge and won't fry your dudes. Yea, Hot-shots need 5's to wound most stuff, but AP -2 and Rapid Fire mean they can shoot up weaker stuff or go for volume shots on units while the Plasma pumps hurt into something dangerous.

I was going to pair it with:

HQ:
Belisarius Cawl
[250]

Elites:
Cybernetica Datasmith
Gamma, Fist
[52]

Troops:
(5) Vanguard
2x Arc Rifles, Arc Maul
[62]

Heavy:
(3) Kastelan Robot
Triple Heavy Phosphor Blasters
[330]

(3) Kastelan Robot
Triple Heavy Phosphor Blasters
[330]

Onager Dunecrawler
Icarus Array, Broad Spectrum Data-tether
[130]

Onager Dunecrawler
Icarus Array, Broad Spectrum Data-tether
[130]

Onager Dunecrawler
Neutron Laser & Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad Spectrum Data-tether
[143]

[1427]

So, 2k list. Six Robots and triple Crawlers for our artillery with Cawl, of course.

It's been interesting reading the discussion of the infiltrators. I've also come to the conclusion that some kind of infiltrate/deep strike capability is necessary to make the AdMech into a complete force.

Right now I'm running a unit of infiltrators with taser goads and have re-purposed my rust stalkers into another unit of infiltrators with power swords & pistols. Generally, I've been pretty happy with their performance and with the exception of the dune crawlers... have considered them the most tactically important units in the army.

I hadn't considered using other imperials to fill the same role however. Interesting thought.

Ive been strongly looking at bringing a detachment of elysian drop troops for deepstriking screens and objective grabbers. For like 300-500 points you can bring a huge ammounts of cheap boots (theyre the same cost as stock ig!). With orders they still put out an obscene ammount of lasgun fire and theyre immediatly in rapidfire range.

That scion detachment looks pretty similar to what I've been considering, though I was thinking of 2 tempestus scions and 2 tempestus command squads instead of 4 tempestus scions. Same number of plasma guns but cheaper. I'd use a unit of 30 conscripts and a commissar to fill out the Battalion and reach 600 points and us them to provide some bubblewrap to our units. But I am still fiddling with that.

See, I have no want to do the Conscript thing. Just zero appeal modelling or playing it. That was the reason I got rid of my Guard in the first place. At least Scions are pretty rad looking.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
See, I have no want to do the Conscript thing. Just zero appeal modelling or playing it. That was the reason I got rid of my Guard in the first place. At least Scions are pretty rad looking.

I know what you mean. Before the FAQ I was thinking of using a void shield generator to make my formation more safe but that wouldn't work against melee drop troops which I am most afraid of and they also nerfed it. I guess I could use fulgurites for a devastating counter-charge but that would still leave my valuable troops exposed. How would you deal with the threat of melee drop troops? Those can really shut down our formation fast.

Malygon wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
See, I have no want to do the Conscript thing. Just zero appeal modelling or playing it. That was the reason I got rid of my Guard in the first place. At least Scions are pretty rad looking.

I know what you mean. Before the FAQ I was thinking of using a void shield generator to make my formation more safe but that wouldn't work against melee drop troops which I am most afraid of and they also nerfed it. I guess I could use fulgurites for a devastating counter-charge but that would still leave my valuable troops exposed. How would you deal with the threat of melee drop troops? Those can really shut down our formation fast.

I actually just purchased Fulgurites yesterday to see if those would offer a good enough means to counter said drop troops (and other assault units) when combined with a Skitarii screen. It isn't ideal probably, but with good deployment it might help buy us enough time to make a stand and pump Phosphor rounds into whatever lands.

I'm thinking of Allying in some Elysian Drop troops instead of using Infiltrators as part of a patrol detachment I was already thinking of with Greyfax and a Cullexus. Forget what I said earlier. Let's do a vanguard detachment with 2 special weapon squads with 3 plasma guns each for a total of 102 freakin points.
What do you all think? Viable?

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
See, I have no want to do the Conscript thing. Just zero appeal modelling or playing it. That was the reason I got rid of my Guard in the first place. At least Scions are pretty rad looking.

Agree really hard on this. I end up looking at a lot of my lists and thinking conscripts would be better, but man I really don't want to model and paint that.

 Gitsplitta wrote:
It's been interesting reading the discussion of the infiltrators. I've also come to the conclusion that some kind of infiltrate/deep strike capability is necessary to make the AdMech into a complete force.

Right now I'm running a unit of infiltrators with taser goads and have re-purposed my rust stalkers into another unit of infiltrators with power swords & pistols. Generally, I've been pretty happy with their performance and with the exception of the dune crawlers... have considered them the most tactically important units in the army.

I hadn't considered using other imperials to fill the same role however. Interesting thought.

Not so sure about that. We need a mobile unit for screening, objectives, and skirmishing, but not necessarily a Deep Strike unit. Remember, we're an artillery army, and our units got to stay on mission. I mean, honestly, if your opponent is smart, he will stay focused on taking out your Kastelans and Crawlers and not care about the Infiltrators chewing up some of his infantry units.

 McGibs wrote:
Ive been strongly looking at bringing a detachment of elysian drop troops for deepstriking screens and objective grabbers. For like 300-500 points you can bring a huge ammounts of cheap boots (theyre the same cost as stock ig!). With orders they still put out an obscene ammount of lasgun fire and theyre immediatly in rapidfire range.

Ehhh... Elysians are nowhere close to as dependable as Plasma MEQs.

One thing I wonder though: What if we were to literally surround a unit with a blob of Elysians? Get them into CC, and they can't fall back. Haha.

According to some quick math I did, for Sicarian Infiltrators:

Pistols have about the same damage output per point vs marines and orks.
Taser goad is 54% better per point vs orks than power sword, and power sword is 35% better per point vs marines.

What do people think is best/what are you fielding? I'm building my unit right now and wondering.

 ph34r wrote:
According to some quick math I did, for Sicarian Infiltrators:

Pistols have about the same damage output per point vs marines and orks.
Taser goad is 54% better per point vs orks than power sword, and power sword is 35% better per point vs marines.

What do people think is best/what are you fielding? I'm building my unit right now and wondering.

I used to go for Taser Goad, but now in 8th I'm leaning towards Power Sword. Str 6 vs Str 4 isn't the game changer it used to be - essentially wounding on 3+ or 4+, and with the reduction in attacks, I'm keener on a consistant -3AP over a shaky 1/6 exploding dice. Plus if I Use them against artilitary vehicles, I believe the sword will also be more effective, despite the taser being higher str.

A related question I want to ask is about the idea of packing an assasin with them - Callidus, Evesor or Cluxeus.. I like the damage output and cost of the Evesor, but the Cluxeus being able to shut down psychers is very appealing..

Any Assassin works to be honest. Are you looking to delete units immediately is the question.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Any Assassin works to be honest. Are you looking to delete units immediately is the question.

Artillery can delete any unit but ICs hiding behind stuff. If you want to handle that, a mixed detachment of Melta/Plasma Scions or Plasma MEQs.

Personally, I am more interested in focusing on defending the artillery and getting points, since it is inevitable that we win if they fail to remove our shooting threats.

Suzuteo wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Any Assassin works to be honest. Are you looking to delete units immediately is the question.

Artillery can delete any unit but ICs hiding behind stuff. If you want to handle that, a mixed detachment of Melta/Plasma Scions or Plasma MEQs.

Personally, I am more interested in focusing on defending the artillery and getting points, since it is inevitable that we win if they fail to remove our shooting threats.

If you want to defend artillery, you're looking to delete units that can threaten them. Eversor is surprisingly the best defensive answer you can get here.

Suzuteo wrote:

Aaranis wrote:
Alright I mixed up some rules but my explanation still works, it says that when this unit is placed the Aegis Protocol is on, just like in 7th. So you still have two shooting phases from your opponent (IF he gets first turn) that goes in the Aegis Protocol. What I mixed up was with the Canticles, which are indeed decided upon each Battle Round. Sorry.

MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:
Why would your opponent get a turn to shoot at Kastelans without Aegis? Protocols are decided at the beginning of your movement phase, it sounds like you are mixing them up with Canticles? i.e. Conqueror protocol is set at the beginning of the second movement phase

I think there may be some misunderstandings here.

Keep in mind three facts:
1) When set up, your Kastelan uses Aegis Protocol.
2) You attempt to change protocols at the start of your Movement phase.
3) The protocol change takes effect at the start of the next battle round. (Before or after Canticles, your choice.)

Here are the rules as written:

Battle Protocols: When this unit is set up, the Aegis Protocol (see below) is in effect. You can attempt to change the unit’s battle protocol at the start of each of your Movement phases if there is a friendly <FORGE WORLD> Cybernetica Datasmith within 6". To do so, roll a D6; on a 2+ the attempt is successful and you can select any one of the three battle protocols to take effect from the start of the next battle round. Otherwise, the attempt fails and the unit’s current protocol remains in effect.

If you go second, you always go second in each battle round. That means there will be one turn where you are exposed to enemy fire without Aegis.

Wulfey wrote:Does anyone know how Litany of the Electromancer works? WHen does the 1" get measured? At the start of the battle round? Once at any time during the battle round? WHose turn does it take place?

At the start of your battle round (which is BEFORE your turn, even if you go first), you roll for Canticles. If you get Litany, then you look at every unit that is in a 100% AdMech detachment (units in detachments with any non-AdMech units are NOT affected by Canticles). Pick out every enemy unit within 1" of these units. Roll a single D6 for each of these enemy units. If you get 6, you roll D3 and deal that many mortal wounds to that unit.

Litany of the Electromancer
Roll a D6 for each enemy unit that is within 1" of any affected units; on a roll of 6, the unit being rolled for suffers D3 mortal wounds.

I think you mispoke here, as all of what you said is correct, except the Ageis part. I double checked the rules on the Robots and they do start with Ageis in effect. Not activating on your turn but on deployment as it says when this unit is setup it is already in Ageis.

Are Icarus crawlers worth taking in an Astra militarum list? Thinking of allying in two to four if them.

PUFNSTUF wrote:
Are Icarus crawlers worth taking in an Astra militarum list? Thinking of allying in two to four if them.

I don't know the profile of the other AA options in AM, but the Icarus Dunecrawler sure is a solid choice. Against Flyers that have the -1 to hit the Crawler still have 3+ to Hit, and 2+ against something that flies otherwise. It's three weapons that shoot at once, for a total of I think 8 shots at S7-8, that's really powerful. Plus, it can move 8" without penalty to Hit and is pretty durable. Think about including a Techpriest Enginseer to repair it if needed. If you take the Crawlers set them in pairs close to each other, so that they may reroll 1s on their invulnerable saves.

 Tsol wrote:


I think you mispoke here, as all of what you said is correct, except the Ageis part. I double checked the rules on the Robots and they do start with Ageis in effect. Not activating on your turn but on deployment as it says when this unit is setup it is already in Ageis.

Yes, Aegis is in effect at the start of the battle. But you switch your protocols in the movement phase and they activate at the start of the next battle round. Which means that if you are going second in a turn, your opponent can shoot at your Robots without activated Aegis protocol since you switched it the round before.

PUFNSTUF wrote:
Are Icarus crawlers worth taking in an Astra militarum list? Thinking of allying in two to four if them.

That's exactly what I'm trying out. They're far cheaper than the Russ, can move and fire without penalty, an invuln save, BS 3+, the Icarus Array and Neutron Laser are phenomenal weapons. The only thing Russes have is +1 T (but I'd rather have the invuln), faster movement, access to orders, and can spit out TONS of shots. But my army already shoots enough low S shots. I need weapons that are going to hit and hurt priority targets.

Heck, even compare the Icarus Array Onager to a Hydra. It's a joke. And don't even look at the comparison of the Neutron Laser to the Russ turret options!

Colonel Cross wrote:

PUFNSTUF wrote:
Are Icarus crawlers worth taking in an Astra militarum list? Thinking of allying in two to four if them.

That's exactly what I'm trying out. They're far cheaper than the Russ, can move and fire without penalty, an invuln save, BS 3+, the Icarus Array and Neutron Laser are phenomenal weapons. The only thing Russes have is +1 T (but I'd rather have the invuln), faster movement, access to orders, and can spit out TONS of shots. But my army already shoots enough low S shots. I need weapons that are going to hit and hurt priority targets.

Heck, even compare the Icarus Array Onager to a Hydra. It's a joke. And don't even look at the comparison of the Neutron Laser to the Russ turret options!

Yea exactly what I was thinking. How is your testing going? Are you taking them in a separate detachment with an HQ to get canticles or just using them in the heavy support slot? I am thinking of using some with a superheavy baneblade variant (of which I have an enginseer anyways for repairs.

Has anyone done the mathhammer to justify us taking in-faction AdMech vs. some of the AA/FW IG options?

ie.

1. Earthshaker Battery vs. Onagers

2. Earthshaker Carriage w/ VOC rerolls vs. Onagers w/ Cawl/TPD rerolls

2. Robots + Protector mode vs. Ultramrine AA Tarantula Sentry Twin Assault Cannons (incl. with Guilliman re-roll wounding buffs and not... this gets very crazy in bulk: 12 shots S6 AP-1 with rerolling hits and wounds on a 40 point model)

Seems like some of the primary competition for Imperium in gunlines. Crazy efficient.

ph34r wrote:According to some quick math I did, for Sicarian Infiltrators:

Pistols have about the same damage output per point vs marines and orks.
Taser goad is 54% better per point vs orks than power sword, and power sword is 35% better per point vs marines.

What do people think is best/what are you fielding? I'm building my unit right now and wondering.

I did mine with Taser and the 5 shot pistol. I like the volume of dice, so I haven't done the math hammer on it to really see whats worth it. I know ive charged 5 to Typhus and did a whooping 1 wound, so its a bad option if your fighting a lot of nurgle, but on Nids its way better then power swords.

temoinlanuit wrote:Has anyone done the mathhammer to justify us taking in-faction AdMech vs. some of the AA/FW IG options?

ie.

1. Earthshaker Battery vs. Onagers

2. Earthshaker Carriage w/ VOC rerolls vs. Onagers w/ Cawl/TPD rerolls

2. Robots + Protector mode vs. Ultramrine AA Tarantula Sentry Twin Assault Cannons (incl. with Guilliman re-roll wounding buffs and not... this gets very crazy in bulk: 12 shots S6 AP-1 with rerolling hits and wounds on a 40 point model)

Seems like some of the primary competition for Imperium in gunlines. Crazy efficient.

Yea Roboute with twin razorbacks is a boatload of shots and very murderous. But im not sure the question here. If your asking if you should cross admech with roboute with razorbacks id say why would you ever do that. Its very expensive. We already spend 250 for Cawl who is basically a reroll platform. Roboute is 360 and not only does he give much better bonuses, but he murders anything in CC. No reason to cross faction them.

I got in a game at 800pt for my FLGS Escalation League and just felt awful afterwards. Tabled my Space Marine opponent on turn 4. The Dakkastelans killed two Dev Squads and a Tac Squad all on their own. My Neutronager blew up a dread and his Captain. Infiltrators didn't do anything except take a far table quarter and objective... but that was worth it. I didn't lose a single model. Recovering wounds from the TPD and Datasmith really made it impossible for him to remove them without doing it in a single turn and when I wiped out his PC Devs on T1 before they could shoot, that took a lot of wind out of his sails. Again, I felt bad because it was just brutal. Gave me a good idea of just how absolutely rude the Robots are for sure.

Next week (starting technically today, but I am so behind on painting) is 1100pt. I haven't been challenged yet, so no idea who my opponent will be (not that I list tailor anyhow).

Here is my list - notable because this week our HQ Power Levels open up a bit and I can take Cawl!

HQ:
Cawl
[250]

Elites:
Cybernetica Datasmith
Gamma, Power Fist
[52]

(5) Sicarian Infiltrators
Flechette & Tasers
[130]

Troops:
(5) Rangers
2x Arquebus, Omnispex
[107]

(6) Vanguard
2x Arc Rifles
[68]

Heavy:
(2) Kastelan Robot
Triple Heavy Phosphor Blasters
[220]

Onager Dunecrawler
Icarus Array, Broad Spectrum Data-tether
[130]

Onager Dunecrawler
Neutron Laser & Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad Spectrum Data-tether
[143]

[1100]

I was hoping to get a bit of time in with the Rangers and snipe out pesky characters. Not sure that will actually materialize, but with Cawl for re-rolls and the mortal wound potential, seemed worth it.

Thoughts? Think it will work as a good all-comers list?