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Wulfey wrote:
The reason I want to run Greyfax + 3 assassins is that my Eversors are converted Rustalkers. They have the claw, the power sword, a skull mask paint job, and a converted infiltrator pistol grafted to their sword. I think it is admechy. Eversors are also much stronger in a deep strike assault than an infilitrator squad, for the points.

Why not some Callidus? Still 6 attacks, with one poisonous. Has a closer deep strike (might be only 4" away from a unit if you're lucky). Command point blocking too, which might be useful. I'd be tempted to run your idea, but with a mix of assassins. Gives the ability to send the eversor after a vehicle with a melta bomb, while the callidus goes for something with invulnerable saves (which they no longer get).

I'm now tempted to create an Inquisitional Assassination Squad...

Niiru wrote:

Wulfey wrote:
The reason I want to run Greyfax + 3 assassins is that my Eversors are converted Rustalkers. They have the claw, the power sword, a skull mask paint job, and a converted infiltrator pistol grafted to their sword. I think it is admechy. Eversors are also much stronger in a deep strike assault than an infilitrator squad, for the points.

Why not some Callidus? Still 6 attacks, with one poisonous. Has a closer deep strike (might be only 4" away from a unit if you're lucky). Command point blocking too, which might be useful. I'd be tempted to run your idea, but with a mix of assassins. Gives the ability to send the eversor after a vehicle with a melta bomb, while the callidus goes for something with invulnerable saves (which they no longer get).

I'm now tempted to create an Inquisitional Assassination Squad...

I don't have a good stand in model. And I don't feel like buying one for 25$. I feel like assassins should be good complements for an admech list and would consider running a calidus ... maybe my spare Gemini could be one with some work .... I posted the list I am thinking about in the army list section. I will repost it here.

IMPERIUM battalion:
Greyfax 85
Celestine 200 (1 gemini)
Conscriptsx20 60
Conscriptsx20 60
Skit Vanguardx5 50 (yes no canticles for these guys, need 50 points of troops and lack models)
Eversor 70
Eversor 70
Eversor 70


ADMECH spearhead:
Cawl 250
Onager Neutron 90 53
Onager Icarus 90 40
Onager Icarus 90 40
PhosphorBotsx4 440
Datasmith 52
LasBallistari 95
LasBallistari 95

Apparently, people with the first turn were winning like 90% of battles in tournaments.
So they are changing some rules. Should help us out a lot especially with the lack of transports.
Kind of makes you wonder what was going on during that whole year of play testing.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/09/new-matched-play-rules-in-chapter-approved-aug-9gw-homepage-post-1/

Yea seriously. They upped all the damage and reduced durability. Then they added stacking auras. And now there are going to be heaps of strategems that deal mortal wounds. In an 'I go, You go' format, that means the person who goes first necessarily takes less damage in return on their second turn. I fully expect them to implement a mandatory night fight on turn 1 where all ranged weapons have -1 to hit during the first turn.

If i had it my way, it would only be the player who goes first during the first battle round who gets the -1 penalty. If you go second, you don't have the penalty.

As I stated above, they "fixed" the problem. That is, the problem of the first mover getting a massive advantage is still there, it's just that who gets to go first is less deterministic.

To truly fix the problem, they need to add a penalty to who goes first or give and advantage to who goes second.

I personally favor going back to the old-fashioned way and exacerbating the existing information advantage. Instead of deploying then rolling, you should roll dice first, and whoever has the high roll chooses to go first or second. Whoever goes first deploys their entire army first, then the other player deploys. Finally, if the high-roller chose to go first, the low-roller can roll to seize the initiative. Bwahaha.

Wulfey wrote:
The reason I want to run Greyfax + 3 assassins is that my Eversors are converted Rustalkers. They have the claw, the power sword, a skull mask paint job, and a converted infiltrator pistol grafted to their sword. I think it is admechy. Eversors are also much stronger in a deep strike assault than an infilitrator squad, for the points.

But what are you doing to get to deep strike the unit?

Jaynen wrote:

Wulfey wrote:
The reason I want to run Greyfax + 3 assassins is that my Eversors are converted Rustalkers. They have the claw, the power sword, a skull mask paint job, and a converted infiltrator pistol grafted to their sword. I think it is admechy. Eversors are also much stronger in a deep strike assault than an infilitrator squad, for the points.

But what are you doing to get to deep strike the unit?

Independent Operative.

Suzuteo wrote:
As I stated above, they "fixed" the problem. That is, the problem of the first mover getting a massive advantage is still there, it's just that who gets to go first is less deterministic.

To truly fix the problem, they need to add a penalty to who goes first or give and advantage to who goes second.

I personally favor going back to the old-fashioned way and exacerbating the existing information advantage. Instead of deploying then rolling, you should roll dice first, and whoever has the high roll chooses to go first or second. Whoever goes first deploys their entire army first, then the other player deploys. Finally, if the high-roller chose to go first, the low-roller can roll to seize the initiative. Bwahaha.

It sounds like you are describing the initiative roll / double turn mechanism in AoS. I wonder if they originally planned to have it in 40k but then removed it because of how many people didn't like that mechanic.


With the rule change no longer guaranteeing a first turn reliably, it sounds like tourney lists will probably need to change. Previously a low drop army had an 83% chance of going first - even in a GT odds are you would get to go first every time. With the rule change their chance of going first drops to 58%, which should be enough to push alpha strike lists of top tables at tournies. The meta will probably shift from strong alpha strike lists to lists capable of weathering an alpha strike. I'm thinking units with good invuln saves or penalties to hit. AdMech i think will be in a good position with shroudsalm + aegis mode kastelans.

I'm eager to see the Forge-Worlds traits and tactics. I'd like to build an army that keeps moving forward, don't really like playing full backfield as it is right now. Moving up the Robots in Aegis mode, supported by Cawl or a Dominus, with more emphasis on the CC units. If they include the Secutarii and/or other FW stuff for us my dream may come true !

 Aaranis wrote:
I'm eager to see the Forge-Worlds traits and tactics. I'd like to build an army that keeps moving forward, don't really like playing full backfield as it is right now. Moving up the Robots in Aegis mode, supported by Cawl or a Dominus, with more emphasis on the CC units. If they include the Secutarii and/or other FW stuff for us my dream may come true !

Me too! Right now admech parks all of their units in one spot, doesnt move, and just roles a bunch of dice - not exactly a ton of fun. I wanted to do a list with cawl + tech priest + Rock em sock em Kastellans all healing each other and shredding guys in CC but i wasnt sure how effective it would be. Maybe with the new initiative rules it will be viable.

Yeaaa... the faction really lost out on the mobility aspect. I was hoping for a slow grinding advance type thing, but really I just park it and shoot. It gets a bit repetitive and requires very little tactics, which makes for a boring army.

Our Codex better be out soon. We need a lot of adjustments to "fix" things. I expect points up for Robots, down for Kataphrons, and some solid strategems. I am hopeful, but without a timeline it makes wanting to keep investing in the army tough. Once I end my participation in the League I am in, I will probably shelf them until the book drops.

npcompl33t wrote:
Me too! Right now admech parks all of their units in one spot, doesnt move, and just roles a bunch of dice - not exactly a ton of fun. I wanted to do a list with cawl + tech priest + Rock em sock em Kastellans all healing each other and shredding guys in CC but i wasnt sure how effective it would be. Maybe with the new initiative rules it will be viable.

Yeah I'd love the Robots to lose the -1 to hit when moving somehow. I equipped the two I have win twin HPB and Incendine Combustors so I'd be happy if they could combust more Also really want to build my next Robots with Fists and Combustors too.

Bummed got my scion start collecting and I think each sprue only has one plasma gun? I wanted to use 2 for the Scion Troops unit and 4 for the command squad

Jaynen wrote:
Bummed got my scion start collecting and I think each sprue only has one plasma gun? I wanted to use 2 for the Scion Troops unit and 4 for the command squad

Yup. Classic GW. That is pretty much par for the course. Our Skitarii don't get more than one of each on their sprues and we can take up to three in per 10-man box.

I tend to use Hoard O Bits for extras. Maybe check them out?

Jaynen wrote:
Bummed got my scion start collecting and I think each sprue only has one plasma gun? I wanted to use 2 for the Scion Troops unit and 4 for the command squad

You gotta Ebay or start converting. If you have 2-3 boxes of kataphrons then you have at least 3-6 leftover plasma canon bits lying around. With some green stuff and cutting you should be able to ram them onto the hotshot lasgun.

Wulfey wrote:

I don't have a good stand in model. And I don't feel like buying one for 25$. I feel like assassins should be good complements for an admech list and would consider running a calidus ... maybe my spare Gemini could be one with some work .... I posted the list I am thinking about in the army list section. I will repost it here.

Spoiler:

IMPERIUM battalion:
Greyfax 85
Celestine 200 (1 gemini)
Conscriptsx20 60
Conscriptsx20 60
Skit Vanguardx5 50 (yes no canticles for these guys, need 50 points of troops and lack models)
Eversor 70
Eversor 70
Eversor 70


ADMECH spearhead:
Cawl 250
Onager Neutron 90 53
Onager Icarus 90 40
Onager Icarus 90 40
PhosphorBotsx4 440
Datasmith 52
LasBallistari 95
LasBallistari 95

Drop the Ballistarii for a Neutron Crawler, and drop the Vanguard for a unit of melta Scions and a Commissar? Sandwich the Commissar and Celestine between tge two Conscript blobs. 1995 points.

I have a question:
What is an optimal ration of Meatshield/Infantry to Artillery?

I am considering taking 4 units of 5 Vanguard and a unit of 10 Priests - is that enough screening for 2000 points?

Suzuteo wrote:
As I stated above, they "fixed" the problem. That is, the problem of the first mover getting a massive advantage is still there, it's just that who gets to go first is less deterministic.

To truly fix the problem, they need to add a penalty to who goes first or give and advantage to who goes second.

I personally favor going back to the old-fashioned way and exacerbating the existing information advantage. Instead of deploying then rolling, you should roll dice first, and whoever has the high roll chooses to go first or second. Whoever goes first deploys their entire army first, then the other player deploys. Finally, if the high-roller chose to go first, the low-roller can roll to seize the initiative. Bwahaha.

How my friends and I deal with this issue is not resolving objectives until the end of battle rounds and not turns. Sure you don't get first turn and potentially wipe up 400pts of the enemy army before they can do anything, but you have a chance to come in and disrupt the first persons objectives and potentially cap their points almost every battle round. More than once have we had people give up first turn for this, and furthermore all our games have been a lot closer, dramatic and fun. Before almost none of our games were even close or entertaining since one side would steam roll the other .

Also lots of terrain. Lots. Blocking Line of sight helps a lot from either side steam rolling each other.

As a newbie what do you mean VirtualJava? Your guys dont die until the end of a round IE both players turns?

Sigh, guess I might as well ask here...

Purple, Green or Red. Infantry; Flying infantry.

I don't think it's purple because of this:
Q: What happens when an Infantry model cannot completely end its move on a floor of ruins when attempting to scale the walls?
A: If an Infantry model is unable to complete a move to a stable position, use the Wobbly Model Syndrome guidelines in the core rules to identify with your opponent where your model’s actual location is.

I'm mostly inclined to believe it's 9'' FLY or not, because of this clip:
https://clips.twitch.tv/AverageAliveNostrilCeilingCat

I'll check my book in a few (heading home from work) but if my memory serves, the table is effectivly treated as a 2d plane. All effects of prior editions and reasons are thrown out in 8th. I think if you just get underneath them, you can attack them. Will confirm soon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So I doubled checked the rules (my group plays 5th edition terrain rules so I'm not too familiar and I recommend every else does the same but still keep the rest of 8th) and the core rule book does not directly addres the issue.

You will need to come to an agreement with your opponet before gameplay and terrain is setup.

If you want the straightforward and literal use. Treat terrain as literal as possible, units can only travel what they can travel, doorways, ladders and such. However, I would also keep the base rules intact, units can interact with other units on different floors if they are at least 6" vertical. I'm using this from the movement section of the rules. Just for simplicity.

If you want tighter and more tactical. I would say 3" forgiveness instead of 6" and unuits must still follow the charge rules to the letter; meaning you can bottleneck a charging force in a hallway or a ladder or what have you.

Most importantly, just come to an agreement with your opponent before you guys setup the board. That way you will have no contentions or misunderstandings and even better if you guys don't like the way something plays, talk after the battle and make changes.

That being said. I've played more games using Ad Mech Sicarians and Ruststalkers. I don't know about the rest of you, but I've been playing narrative due to the Ultramar campaign at my GW store. Effectively spamming whatever the flavor of the week is. This week was focused on elites. So i played every single elite model I had.

List
2 Dominus
10 Vanguard 3 ark rifles, Alpha Maul/ark pistol, omispex
10 vangaurd 3 pslama, Alpha Maul/ark pistol, omispex
10 rangers, omispex
1 squad of Breachers
1 squad of Destroyers
1 5 Infiltrators, goad
1 5 infiltrators, powerswords
1 5 Sicarians, razors/chords
1 5 sicarians duel razors
1 10 electro priests, disco sticks
1 10 electro priests, jazz hands

FYI this list is not to be competitive but created to max out my elites as per instructed for the campaign.

I fought Space marines, Chaos Space Marines and 1ksuns for the three games. Here is a run down on how each unit performed.

Here is what really stood out to my. Infiltrators and Rustsalkers really, kinda just suck. Infiltrators are useful, in the fact they can deepstrike and probably take out lightly armored or undefeded infantry; see IG heavy weapons teams, or Tyranid Gaunts. But otherwise, do not perform well nor survive the second turn of their deepstrike.

Still useful, but I think they are overcosted. Need a points reduction or a slight buff to their survivability.


Sicarians.... Overall, very meh. Borderline useless.
They served as a impeadment to my enemy deepstriking and a deterant from an outright charge, but when placed in combat, didn't do anything in any of the three games.
The transonic razors had a super specific and excellent purpose in 7th (where the units was designed to play in) but was relegated to a strange and meaningless place in 8th. Its worse than the infiltrators and only slightly less points. Whom the infiltrators can deep strike and have ranged attacks. They are significantly worse and less hardy than the electro priests, who outperform them in every way, for fewer points. Electropreists have a 5++/5+++ and can get a 3++/5++ and deal out more attacks and more mortal wounds and have a better overall statline than the sicarians. Who do the same job but better in every way.

The main issue I have with these awesome looking but horrible rules models is their rules. I think the GW team, just kinda "skipped" them. They looked at the model and just said, "I dunno, they can't have powersowrds, as the infiltrators already have that, they can't have huge mortal wound dishing out, electropriests have that, I guess, we will just ignore them and think of something later" And they just never gave them rules.

Electropreists: have and presumably always do well. Each game Jazzhands threw out so many attacks they easily made their points back and became pychological weapons. Once your enemy sees how many shots these mooks throw out, expect them to be focused fired on. They do amazing in units of 10, but 3 small units of 5 might be better simply to avoid focus fire being placed on them due to their threat rating.

Disco sticks. Fantastic. I keep them behind my Battle Servitors. My opponent never goes near them. If he is foolish enought to charge or get into charge range, they liquify whatever they get into melee with.

Vanguard: As always, positioning is key. They rarely make more than their points back, but their tactical flexability and decent firepower always make them worthwhile. Even if they do die super easy.
Rangers: Not been useful, not a fault of the unit but of circumstance, I've been fighting Marines and 1ksuns. Their rilfles are simply not suited towards that opponent.

Destroyers: Grav/phospher Always useful, always deadly, place them in terrain and keep the dominus nearby. They are hardy enough to absorb small arms fire and the dominus can repair them with ease and grant them rerolls to hit. Careful, their 6++ is garbage and a kark missle or Laz cannon or even overcharge plasma will turn these SUPER expensive units into lost points if you don't put them in a bunker or place them behind a VOID SHIELD or Landing Pad.

Breachers: These guys either perform amazingly or terribly in my games. Torsion Cannons always. If you take ark rifles on these, you are wasing points. Heavy ark Rifles are cheap, but they are crap. S6 Ap -2 D3, (D6 against vehicals) is simply not hight enough strength to consitantly pose a real threat to vehicals. Unless you wounds on a 4+ (which you wont be for anything heavier than a land speeder) don't bother. Either take the Heavy grav for the anti infantry and even slight anti tank, or take theTorsion cannons which can (unless you have bad luck like me) and will pop vehicals with realtive ease.
It should be noted, if you do list tailor and you know your opponnet is going to be bring lots of light vehicals; sentinals, land speeders, light walkers and so forth, these things would actually be quite useful.

Breachers with Ark claws. Suprisignly effective. A excellent default weapon. S6 Ap-1 D1/Dd3 towards vehicals.

Breachers with Hydralic Claws. S10 AP-1 Dd3 -1 to hit. Arguably the worse weapon/unit combo in the game. This is EVEN WORSE than regular Servitors with Servo arms. AT LEAST servitors with servo arms are only 12 fething points. Not 85. If this weapon did not -1 to WS, I would say, maybe. But with a -1 to WS and ONLY a -1 AP, I would say this is a typo but after the first Errata came up and this wasn't changed, it was confirmed intentional. Never. Ever. Take this. It costs more than the Ark Claws and is worse. Simply don't.

Dominus has consitantly been synergy useful but otherwise worthless model. Eradiation Ray is not bad, but its D3 shots make it unreliable. If Dominus would come down in points to just 100. I think that would be his sweet spot.

Hmm funny, I always thought the Sicarians to be worth it. Infiltrators can just shoot so much they can be useful against light-armoured opponents, and they can still dish out loads of attack with the Goads. The Ruststalkers I've used only a few times since I bought them recently, but I'm really satisfied from them. Twice they were able to counter a 3-man squad of Terminators deep-striking behind me. They put out a lot of attacks and with a little luck, a lot of 6's to Wound for the mortal wounds. Always played them with Razors + Chordclaws.

The Fulgurites are indeed really nice and cheap enough that you're not angry when they die. They finished off a 4 Wounds Deceiver last game on the charge and then became a Gauss-magnet for the whole turn. They died but tanked really good with the 3++ and that's a lot of fire my other flimsy units weren't getting.

If only we had a transport we could put disco sticks in

Jaynen wrote:
If only we had a transport we could put disco sticks in

Soon my friend, soon...

You mean never. It will never ing happen. FW will never release that ing book. Today was open day, the best shot we had, and nothing of use came out of it, not even an acknowledgement we exist. A new line of Legion Rhino and Repulsor doors was announced, for god's sake, what makes you think our woefully incomplete army is worth more than ing rhino doors?

Good analysis on the Sicarians, I'll add to it when I get to play my own.

Maybe it won't be coming from FW ? Maybe the codex will bring new minis and so, a new transport. I'd be happy not to blast 80+ euros into a single transport personally.

It pretty much has to come from FW, as they've already stated that's where the rules for hoplites and peltasts will be. And with FW open come and gone, who knows when we'll get rules for them.

Does any other army have NO transports?

We can take IG stuff but not as dedicated and not in our AM detachments right?

Jaynen wrote:
Does any other army have NO transports?

We can take IG stuff but not as dedicated and not in our AM detachments right?

Interestingly, it seems the Inquisition doesn't have any transport options in the Index, although I can't remember if they had any before anyway.
Otherwise, the other armies missing transports are:

Knights (but why anyway?), and Daemons.
Oh John Deere.


And on taking the IG stuff:
Oh woe is us, we can't use that stuff Full Stop now.
"...can only transport Astra Militarum Infantry models..." on all their Transportation mentions.
-----

At this point on Cyraxus, despite it looking minorly glintingly little-speck-in-the-sky hopeful now having seen that new Tau thingy, I'm just going to feth it and write my own rules for the time being.
Made enough custom rules during 7th; I'm sure I'll do fine in 8th.