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2017/09/12 03:44:14
Subject: Re:Tactica Mechanicus 2.0 - Deus Est Machina! - Sound The Drum, The Previews Have Come
Niiru wrote:
Shouldn't the Icarus do more damage than a Neutron vs wave serpents? They have more shots, and they get a +1 against units with FLY, right? Though that was the whole point of Icarus? If icarus do less damage against flyers, and also have -1 to hit against other targets, then they must be worse against all target compared to Neutron, which seems incorrect
Unless I messed up my numbers, doesn't seem it. I mean, it doesn't surprise me that they're roughly on par against Wave Serpents. Compared to Neutron, Icarus tends to be more reliable against flyers and flexible against MEQs and below. I think the numbers against something like Battlesuits are much more impressive.
I thought wave serpents counted as flyers, and so the Icarus sound be better. If not, I don't see why they'd be better against any other FLY unit... I'm too tired to try and math right now though lol.
2017/09/12 03:44:58
Subject: Tactica Mechanicus 2.0 - Deus Est Machina! - Sound The Drum, The Previews Have Come
I've heard some bad rumors along the lines of Kataphrons not getting a pts drop. If they have not been changed(or directly affected by stratagems or whatever), GW is confirmed as completelly inept
There are a lot of flying units with less than T7. Anything with a jet pack, battlesuits, Tyranids, etc. Furthermore, if you have to shoot infantry, am Icarus can do that very well, especially due to rerolls.
2017/09/12 05:47:40
Subject: Tactica Mechanicus 2.0 - Deus Est Machina! - Sound The Drum, The Previews Have Come
22 units in the Codex:
17 Ad Mech + 5 knights(I assume). So hooray, no new units
Although the wording is "22 datasheets with rules and point values for each Adeptus Mechanicus miniature". So there is a chance, albeit a very very VERY small one, that we'll get 5 new units.
But it also say " Combining the previous codexes Adeptus Mechanicus, Skitarii and Imperial Knighs in one book!" So, again, I really doubt we'll get new units
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/09/12 06:01:57
The_Savior wrote: -Holds my eight Kastelan Robots close- Precious...
You think they'll get nerfed? Fat chance. If they do - GW is mental
I dunno, but I am not worried either, I don't play try-hard enough like I used too. So having a bunch of robots gun down things is fun. Don't get me wrong, I just bought the other six recently. So I would not like them to be nerfed. But that stratagem for the mortal wounds is amazing.
2017/09/12 07:21:18
Subject: Tactica Mechanicus 2.0 - Deus Est Machina! - Sound The Drum, The Previews Have Come
Heavy Support:
Onager Dunecrawler (Neutron Laser)
Onager Dunecrawler (Neutron Laser)
I could drop the three dragoons for another Dunecrawler and change, so that is certainly an option on that's on the table, although I do like having that variety in models, and the extra table control could end up going a long way in an army that is already frontloaded with lots of offensive firepower. Hordes can prove problematic, but they don't have much of a presence in my environment's current meta, so I can afford to mess around a bit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/12 07:30:16
2019/09/02 12:56:45
Subject: Re:Tactica Mechanicus 2.0 - Deus Est Machina! - Sound The Drum, The Previews Have Come
Niiru wrote:
Shouldn't the Icarus do more damage than a Neutron vs wave serpents? They have more shots, and they get a +1 against units with FLY, right? Though that was the whole point of Icarus? If icarus do less damage against flyers, and also have -1 to hit against other targets, then they must be worse against all target compared to Neutron, which seems incorrect
Unless I messed up my numbers, doesn't seem it. I mean, it doesn't surprise me that they're roughly on par against Wave Serpents. Compared to Neutron, Icarus tends to be more reliable against flyers and flexible against MEQs and below. I think the numbers against something like Battlesuits are much more impressive.
I thought wave serpents counted as flyers, and so the Icarus sound be better. If not, I don't see why they'd be better against any other FLY unit... I'm too tired to try and math right now though lol.
A couple of things go into this discussion!
The Neutron Onager, with re-rolls, does a better job against T7 Flyers
However, the Icarus Onager does not need the rerolls as much to perform, and anything below T7 it VASTLY outperforms the Neutron Onager.
For a lot of people, that might be meta dependent choice. All the flyers I face locally are Marine players with Stormravens, Firehawks, and the like. I only take 1 Icarus as opposed to multiples like some might.
~~~
As far as the mortal wound strategem goes, in regards to Kastelens in Protector, I believe the wording implies that it only works for the one shooting attack, correct?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/12 07:29:07
2017/09/12 08:36:48
Subject: Tactica Mechanicus 2.0 - Deus Est Machina! - Sound The Drum, The Previews Have Come
Heavy Support:
Onager Dunecrawler (Neutron Laser)
Onager Dunecrawler (Neutron Laser)
I could drop the three dragoons for another Dunecrawler and change, so that is certainly an option on that's on the table, although I do like having that variety in models, and the extra table control could end up going a long way in an army that is already frontloaded with lots of offensive firepower. Hordes can prove problematic, but they don't have much of a presence in my environment's current meta, so I can afford to mess around a bit.
Try making from now on lists with command points in mind. Since we w8ing the new codex and already see a fraction of changes.
2dragoons might be more optimal for a 1500 list. Atm im trying one dragoo with sniper one with lance havent decided yet. But i use also rangers with sniper and elysian sniper team.
Since lots of changes will soon arive i strongly believe ad mech for me will be 2 detachments. One mars with my dakka and one melee for my dragoons to explode. So might be nice to make that split sooner. I dont understand why you have so much anti phych for a 1500 list. Take one cullexus or greyfax. I would go with astra militarum soldiers better can cover mortal spam and still get same resukts with greyfax she gives ld to soldiers like commissar.
Manticore no need. Heavy weqpon team with mortars all you need. And as for the deep strike try ekysian force cheaper + 21 points sniper to get those snipers stacking. Celestine is the best tar pit but id go with Cawl. I use dragoons as tar pits espcially if i have 3 and ig soldiers are more flexible. For me. + Cawl with neutron onagers are beast vs antitanks role so i take mortars and ig soldiers for anti blop.
One unit of robots with datasmith costs 272 points definetly worth it.
2017/09/12 08:38:03
Subject: Tactica Mechanicus 2.0 - Deus Est Machina! - Sound The Drum, The Previews Have Come
on thing to consider is the icarus is also better at shooting grunts than the neutron. even at a lower BS. maybe not MEQ, i'd have to actually do the math, but certainly GEQ or nids or orks that makes it more versatile. I'll still take my neutrons though because they look bad ass.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Multiple power fists going after a 60 point model? That's a good tradeoff considering on average you'd need 3 Power Fists to have hit and wounded it.
5 man terminator squad has 11 attacks, that's average of 7. they thank you for the free 2d6 movement, kill one consolidate 3" to the other side of the remaining dragoon, then you either have to fall back and let them pass, get charged or die in the next round and by the time they come back to their turn the dragoons are gone, they're 2d6+3" closer to your gunline. when they could have instead simply done nothing and it would take another one to two turns for that same unit to get to the same place
the smarter idea is to make sure what ever you are screening with takes several down with them or is so cheap you can litter the board with them.... or just put it to more shooting.
You're not making that Deep Strike charge often unless you're going Black Templars or Minotaurs w/ Asterion. Your argument is bad and you should feel bad. Please get out of this Tactica so actual Mechanicus players can do discussion please.
you haven't played this edition have you because
1) command rerolls are a thing
2) you stand a fair to decent chance of making it 27% from deep strike without the reroll, IIRC something like 52-58 with it.
3) LAND RAIDERS EXIST
By this argument, we shouldn't run screens at all. I mean, even Conscripts don't do much damage. Their value is in how they can body block, sponge wounds, and maybe kill GEQs. They can't even threaten the Dragoons that you're comparing them unfavorably against, which cost only 8 more points more.
20 conscripts are 60 points that's 8 points cheaper than A SINGLE dragoon. not the unit of two, they're less than half the price, take up way more space, put out 6 times the number of attacks in melee, 80 shots in shooting (FRFSRF), and if you add a commissar you can have a power fist in there too. but truth be told they won't be minimum squad size and they will not charge you they'll simply FRFSRF you to death then charge if they need to. which a max squad size conscrpit blob should be able to take out a pair of dragoons in a single turn.
in theory a max size concript blob if they FRFSRF and get the charge off gets 250 attacks a that turn and is 150 points. granted they're BSWS 5 at str 3 but that's 250 attacks and 200 of them are shooting, the extra 50 just make sure those 4 dragoons die a horrible death. or whatever they're firing at. even with BS 6 from the dragoons ability you are still looking at an average of about 12 wounds a turn
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2017/09/12 09:17:34
rvd1ofakind wrote: 22 units in the Codex:
17 Ad Mech + 5 knights(I assume). So hooray, no new units
Although the wording is "22 datasheets with rules and point values for each Adeptus Mechanicus miniature". So there is a chance, albeit a very very VERY small one, that we'll get 5 new units.
But it also say " Combining the previous codexes Adeptus Mechanicus, Skitarii and Imperial Knighs in one book!" So, again, I really doubt we'll get new units
Nooo...
I mean, it could be 4 new datasheets and 1 Mechanicum Knight datasheet, but that seems unlikely.
By this argument, we shouldn't run screens at all. I mean, even Conscripts don't do much damage. Their value is in how they can body block, sponge wounds, and maybe kill GEQs. They can't even threaten the Dragoons that you're comparing them unfavorably against, which cost only 8 more points more.
20 conscripts are 60 points that's 8 points cheaper than A SINGLE dragoon. not the unit of two, they're less than half the price, take up way more space, put out 6 times the number of attacks in melee, 80 shots in shooting (FRFSRF), and if you add a commissar you can have a power fist in there too. but truth be told they won't be minimum squad size and they will not charge you they'll simply FRFSRF you to death then charge if they need to. which a max squad size conscrpit blob should be able to take out a pair of dragoons in a single turn.
in theory a max size concript blob if they FRFSRF and get the charge off gets 250 attacks a that turn and is 150 points. granted they're BSWS 5 at str 3 but that's 250 attacks and 200 of them are shooting, the extra 50 just make sure those 4 dragoons die a horrible death. or whatever they're firing at. even with BS 6 from the dragoons ability you are still looking at an average of about 12 wounds a turn
Your argument here doesn't seem to rise above describing Conscripts. Yes, they are 8 points cheaper than a Dragoon, deny a lot of ground with their bodies, and can fire 80 shots with FRFSRF. We know. However, I might as well try to argue that Conscripts are useless by saying they can't run 10" or have a 33% chance of making plasma explode like a Dragoon. If you want to compare 45 Conscripts to 2 Dragoons, same difference.
Conscripts can do some damage against other GEQ, but your math is mistaken if you think any reasonable number of Conscripts can wipe two Dragoons in a single turn. Terribly so. Conscripts hit Dragoons on a roll of 6 (5+BS with -1 to hit from Incense Cloud) and wound on a roll of 6 (3S is half of 6T). Dragoons have a 4+ save (3+ with Shroudpsalm, but let's say he doesn't have it this time) and 6 Wounds. To deal 12 wounds in one turn, you need 12*6*6*2 = 864 shots. That means 216 Conscripts in Rapid Fire range and FRFSRF. That is 648 vs 136 points. I would be glad to tie up that many points of shooting with my screening unit. As for CC, I'm not worried either. 45 Conscripts can't even fully pile in around 2 Dragoon bases with the 3" move; two ranks of 22 Conscripts is 21" wide.
Indeed, considering virtually every Imperium army just about relies on Conscripts, can you not see how Dragoons can be advantageously against them as a screen? To use your (flawed) argument, wouldn't taking Conscripts be spending points that "do nothing" either because the enemy isn't afraid of them, can tie them up with cheaper units, or outright just ignore them?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/12 11:18:13
2017/09/19 11:36:22
Subject: Tactica Mechanicus 2.0 - Deus Est Machina! - Sound The Drum, The Previews Have Come
rvd1ofakind wrote: I've heard some bad rumors along the lines of Kataphrons not getting a pts drop. If they have not been changed(or directly affected by stratagems or whatever), GW is confirmed as completelly inept
That would thoroughly tick me off. Unless a pre-emptive Errata drops same day to fix them. They are entirely overpriced.
And I doubt they will mess with Kastelans. My cynical side says the $69 kit will be one they want to keep moving.
rvd1ofakind wrote: I've heard some bad rumors along the lines of Kataphrons not getting a pts drop. If they have not been changed(or directly affected by stratagems or whatever), GW is confirmed as completelly inept
That would thoroughly tick me off. Unless a pre-emptive Errata drops same day to fix them. They are entirely overpriced.
And I doubt they will mess with Kastelans. My cynical side says the $69 kit will be one they want to keep moving.
$52 for me. My local store made some sort of deal with the devil and sells everything gw 20% off and I get store bonuses on top of that
Skimmers (like the wave serpent) have the Fly keyword but don't have any of the "true flyer" stuff like Hard to Hit. So they're in the same boat as jump pack units. Which is why earlier I said that the Icarus would be hitting them on 2+, unless of course they get a -1 to hit from some sort of Eldar trickery (which is a possibility).
I'd expect the really severe fall-off point to be T8, since the majority of its damage is in its two S7 profiles it would go from mostly wounding on 4+ to everything wounding on 5+.
Though the Icarus does also have some problems with 3+ and 2+ saves, since while the 1d6 shot is AP-3 the 4x2 set is only AP-1. The neutron laser definitely has an easier time dealing armor saves.
2017/09/12 13:11:21
Subject: Tactica Mechanicus 2.0 - Deus Est Machina! - Sound The Drum, The Previews Have Come
Gitsplitta wrote: Could you guys PLEASE just give it a rest! You're dominating this thread with bickering over whether Dragoons work or not. WHO GIVES A DAMN?!
If you like them, use them. If you don't... don't.
Quit wasting everyone's time and bandwidth trying to sort out your schlock from someone who might actually have something meaningful to say.
OH, and by the way... Get off my lawn!
ignore function exists I use it liberally *click*
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/12 13:16:58
Gitsplitta wrote: Could you guys PLEASE just give it a rest! You're dominating this thread with bickering over whether Dragoons work or not. WHO GIVES A DAMN?!
If you like them, use them. If you don't... don't.
Quit wasting everyone's time and bandwidth trying to sort out your schlock from someone who might actually have something meaningful to say.
OH, and by the way... Get off my lawn!
Aside from that gendoikari87 guy (who I have on ignore), most of the discussion was pretty good for the players. I think it made a good case to the strengths/weaknesses of the Dragoons pre-Codex.
It isn't a waste of anything if it helps players, especially new ones, grasp what our units do.
Gitsplitta wrote: Could you guys PLEASE just give it a rest! You're dominating this thread with bickering over whether Dragoons work or not. WHO GIVES A DAMN?!
If you like them, use them. If you don't... don't.
Quit wasting everyone's time and bandwidth trying to sort out your schlock from someone who might actually have something meaningful to say.
OH, and by the way... Get off my lawn!
Aside from that gendoikari87 guy (who I have on ignore), most of the discussion was pretty good for the players. I think it made a good case to the strengths/weaknesses of the Dragoons pre-Codex.
It isn't a waste of anything if it helps players, especially new ones, grasp what our units do.
you have done a good job explaining what they are used for thank you for that. They aren't as useless as I thought but I still think here are much better options. The damage output is far far too low for me, if it's on the table I believe it should be killing things not just protecting others feel free to disagree but I think a model that's dead can't attack you back
oh It also helped me understand that common wisdom isn't common and often not wise. Following the herd isn't normally a good idea and when you challenge people's long held beliefs no matter how wrong they are they'll do some damn fine mental gymnastics to avoid admitting they might not be 100% right. Thinking outside the box is the only way to advance.
You people do you I'll do me and if I start losing I'll adapt, so far I have not
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/12 14:08:32
Gitsplitta wrote: Could you guys PLEASE just give it a rest! You're dominating this thread with bickering over whether Dragoons work or not. WHO GIVES A DAMN?!
If you like them, use them. If you don't... don't.
Quit wasting everyone's time and bandwidth trying to sort out your schlock from someone who might actually have something meaningful to say.
OH, and by the way... Get off my lawn!
Aside from that gendoikari87 guy (who I have on ignore), most of the discussion was pretty good for the players. I think it made a good case to the strengths/weaknesses of the Dragoons pre-Codex.
It isn't a waste of anything if it helps players, especially new ones, grasp what our units do.
you have done a good job explaining what they are used for thank you for that. They aren't as useless as I thought but I still think here are much better options. The damage output is far far too low for me, if it's on the table I believe it should be killing things not just protecting others feel free to disagree but I think a model that's dead can't attack you back
oh It also helped me understand that common wisdom isn't common and often not wise. Following the herd isn't normally a good idea and when you challenge people's long held beliefs no matter how wrong they are they'll do some damn fine mental gymnastics to avoid admitting they might not be 100% right. Thinking outside the box is the only way to advance.
You people do you I'll do me and if I start losing I'll adapt, so far I have not
It wasn't what you presented, it was how. Plenty of out-of-the-box thinking here. That is how Dragoons even got to be used in the first place, as they were initially dismissed.
Attitude is everything. Abrasive, rude language and a combative nature are good ways to get people to ignore you, no matter how good your ideas may or may not be.
Gitsplitta wrote: Could you guys PLEASE just give it a rest! You're dominating this thread with bickering over whether Dragoons work or not. WHO GIVES A DAMN?!
If you like them, use them. If you don't... don't.
Quit wasting everyone's time and bandwidth trying to sort out your schlock from someone who might actually have something meaningful to say.
OH, and by the way... Get off my lawn!
Aside from that gendoikari87 guy (who I have on ignore), most of the discussion was pretty good for the players. I think it made a good case to the strengths/weaknesses of the Dragoons pre-Codex.
It isn't a waste of anything if it helps players, especially new ones, grasp what our units do.
you have done a good job explaining what they are used for thank you for that. They aren't as useless as I thought but I still think here are much better options. The damage output is far far too low for me, if it's on the table I believe it should be killing things not just protecting others feel free to disagree but I think a model that's dead can't attack you back
oh It also helped me understand that common wisdom isn't common and often not wise. Following the herd isn't normally a good idea and when you challenge people's long held beliefs no matter how wrong they are they'll do some damn fine mental gymnastics to avoid admitting they might not be 100% right. Thinking outside the box is the only way to advance.
You people do you I'll do me and if I start losing I'll adapt, so far I have not
It wasn't what you presented, it was how. Plenty of out-of-the-box thinking here. That is how Dragoons even got to be used in the first place, as they were initially dismissed.
Attitude is everything. Abrasive, rude language and a combative nature are good ways to get people to ignore you, no matter how good your ideas may or may not be.
He suggested Tactical Marines and Grey Knight Terminators as better screening units than Dragoons. He doesn't HAVE good ideas.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2017/09/12 14:52:44
Subject: Tactica Mechanicus 2.0 - Deus Est Machina! - Sound The Drum, The Previews Have Come
Gitsplitta wrote: Could you guys PLEASE just give it a rest! You're dominating this thread with bickering over whether Dragoons work or not. WHO GIVES A DAMN?!
If you like them, use them. If you don't... don't.
Quit wasting everyone's time and bandwidth trying to sort out your schlock from someone who might actually have something meaningful to say.
OH, and by the way... Get off my lawn!
Aside from that gendoikari87 guy (who I have on ignore), most of the discussion was pretty good for the players. I think it made a good case to the strengths/weaknesses of the Dragoons pre-Codex.
It isn't a waste of anything if it helps players, especially new ones, grasp what our units do.
you have done a good job explaining what they are used for thank you for that. They aren't as useless as I thought but I still think here are much better options. The damage output is far far too low for me, if it's on the table I believe it should be killing things not just protecting others feel free to disagree but I think a model that's dead can't attack you back
oh It also helped me understand that common wisdom isn't common and often not wise. Following the herd isn't normally a good idea and when you challenge people's long held beliefs no matter how wrong they are they'll do some damn fine mental gymnastics to avoid admitting they might not be 100% right. Thinking outside the box is the only way to advance.
You people do you I'll do me and if I start losing I'll adapt, so far I have not
It wasn't what you presented, it was how. Plenty of out-of-the-box thinking here. That is how Dragoons even got to be used in the first place, as they were initially dismissed.
Attitude is everything. Abrasive, rude language and a combative nature are good ways to get people to ignore you, no matter how good your ideas may or may not be.
He suggested Tactical Marines and Grey Knight Terminators as better screening units than Dragoons. He doesn't HAVE good ideas.
I regularly use the terminators to great effect... no idea what your problem is. They out perform my onagers and kastelans...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/12 15:03:34
Dear Omnissiah, stop arguing like a gaggle of low-fuelled meatbags. Different things work in different metas, even if it is an attempt at argument by anecdote.
Forge World Focus: Graia One of the most exciting features of the new Adeptus Mechanicus codex is rules for seven different forge worlds, allowing you to customise your collection more than ever before with powerful and thematic new abilities. This week, we’ll be previewing what the forge world rules mean for your army in our daily previews of Codex: Adeptus Mechanicus in advance of the pre-order this Saturday:
Graia is the most tenacious of the forge worlds, and every Tech-Priest and soldier of the planet is hard-wired to think only in terms of ruthless, uncompromising logic. Even Psykers find that their magics cannot find purchase on the sheer wall of absolute rationality projected by the Graian forces.
On the tabletop, Graian armis have a handy dogma that helps increase the durability of massed units considerably – Refusal To Yield:
This dogma is great on single wound models, essentially providing them with an additional layer of saving throws, while for high-points cost models, the potential to ignore a potentially fatal wound and keep fighting is very handy indeed. Nearly every unit in the Adeptus Mechanicus codex also possesses a 6+ invulnerable save, meaning that you could be ignoring a third of wounds.
Best Units
Fulgurite Electro-Priests are already a superb unit, capable of dealing huge damage in assault and growing in power thanks to Siphoned Vigour bringing them up to a 3+ Invulnerable Save. With the Graia dogma, a group of Fulgurite Electro-Priests get this save, followed by a second pseudo-saving throw from Fanatical Devotion, followed by their final Refusal To Yield roll. In practice, this means you’ll be saving 83% of wounds from normal sources and 50% of mortal wounds.
Zealous Congregation, a new Adeptus Mechanicus Stratagem, even allows you to fight again, making these worshippers of the Motive Force an even more efficient option.
And Graia is up
Skitarii Vanguard also work superbly in Graia army; as we’ve stateda above, they’ll be ignoring at least a third of any incoming wounds, while Graia’s unique Warlord Trait means you’ll be able to use these guys as a fairly potent assault unit.
Usually, Vanguard must choose between firing with their weapons or weakening enemies with rad-saturation, but with Emotionless Clarity allowing them to shoot into combat, you won’t have to!
Graia is the army for you if you treasure durability above all else and want some handy insurance against mortal wounds (with the Death Guard around, you’ll need it!). Come back tomorrow, when we’ll be looking at Metalica, most relentless of the forge worlds.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/09/12 15:12:42
Peregrine - If you like the army buy it, and don't worry about what one random person on the internet thinks.
2017/09/12 15:15:34
Subject: Tactica Mechanicus 2.0 - Deus Est Machina! - Sound The Drum, Graia Has Come
Oh my! That Strategem! Really helps the Fulgurites finish off units to get that buff.
And armywide 6+ FNP-ish extra save thing... oof. While it is only a 16% chance to stop a loss, that is not too shabby. I doubt it will be a strategy you build on so much as just something that lends to our durability.
Verviedi wrote: Graia seems good, but obviously not as absolutely amazing as Mars. I fear that we'll end up with Mars as the only option in a competitive environment.
We got a few more to go!
...but yea, I am getting that feeling too.
Now that Graia appears to be what was predicted to be Metalica, I am kinda curious as to what my FW will wind up getting!
