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 Verviedi wrote:
I think the best part of these reviews are the beautiful unit headers. We will have the most beautiful OP of them all when I get them in.

Graia seems good, but obviously not as absolutely amazing as Mars. I fear that we'll end up with Mars as the only option in a competitive environment.

This is my fear as well but at least now there are actually reasons to not be Mars, outside of fluff reasons. I like to be a contrarian at times which is how I started AdMech. They are not played much locally and I didn't want to do Mars, pre 8th, just because... Looking forward to what the other FW get.

I worry it's not going to be very good, but running a Skitarii Vanguard assault army with the Graia warlord trait sounds like a lot of fun.

Graias warlord trait showed promise but it only works with assault and rapid fire weapons and as a warlord trait it can only be on one unit so your tpd walking around with skitarii...

gendoikari87 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 Gitsplitta wrote:
Could you guys PLEASE just give it a rest! You're dominating this thread with bickering over whether Dragoons work or not. WHO GIVES A DAMN?!

If you like them, use them. If you don't... don't.

Quit wasting everyone's time and bandwidth trying to sort out your schlock from someone who might actually have something meaningful to say.


OH, and by the way... Get off my lawn!

Aside from that gendoikari87 guy (who I have on ignore), most of the discussion was pretty good for the players. I think it made a good case to the strengths/weaknesses of the Dragoons pre-Codex.

It isn't a waste of anything if it helps players, especially new ones, grasp what our units do.

you have done a good job explaining what they are used for thank you for that. They aren't as useless as I thought but I still think here are much better options. The damage output is far far too low for me, if it's on the table I believe it should be killing things not just protecting others feel free to disagree but I think a model that's dead can't attack you back

oh It also helped me understand that common wisdom isn't common and often not wise. Following the herd isn't normally a good idea and when you challenge people's long held beliefs no matter how wrong they are they'll do some damn fine mental gymnastics to avoid admitting they might not be 100% right. Thinking outside the box is the only way to advance.

You people do you I'll do me and if I start losing I'll adapt, so far I have not

It wasn't what you presented, it was how. Plenty of out-of-the-box thinking here. That is how Dragoons even got to be used in the first place, as they were initially dismissed.

Attitude is everything. Abrasive, rude language and a combative nature are good ways to get people to ignore you, no matter how good your ideas may or may not be.

He suggested Tactical Marines and Grey Knight Terminators as better screening units than Dragoons. He doesn't HAVE good ideas.

I regularly use the terminators to great effect... no idea what your problem is. They out perform my onagers and kastelans...

The problem is, as someone that uses Grey Knights, we at the Grey Knight Tactica agree the regular Terminators are garbage AND they increased 2 points! On top of you not already knowing Acolytes were erratad to be 1 wound, I don't even know what game you're playing. Had you said Paladins I would be just a mild amount skeptical and wanting to hear more, but this isn't the case at all.


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gendoikari87 wrote:
Graias warlord trait showed promise but it only works with assault and rapid fire weapons and as a warlord trait it can only be on one unit so your tpd walking around with skitarii...

Honestly I think heavy weapons would've been a little odd to do that for when the enemy is that close. I'd prefer having the option for crunch purposes but fluff wise it does make sense.

Well over at the grey knight tactics you might be right when there's regular grey knights to take who I'm hoping to get soon but the terminators are working out well for me so far.

Haven't even looked at the cost on paladins

They're literally a few more points for an extra wound (making them super durable to 2 damage weapons) and attack, and get two heavy weapons at 5 man squads. Plus their sergeant hits on a 2+ in melee, making him a great candidate for a Hammer.

ENGINSEER CONFIRMED HQ!!!!
Also, they don't know about using the Mars' stratagem on both Kastelan's shooting things. Also the sole 6+ save might save additional wounds. For example if you get hit by 3 damage, you might go to 1 with that one 6+ roll to stay aline. And not 3 6+ rolls. But both of these have been sent to FAQ

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
ENGINSEER CONFIRMED HQ!!!!

Yup!

Maybe, gonna depend on how many is a few extra points. I don't actually use the heavy weapons because I make heavy use of psybolt ammunition. A daemon hammer hittin on 3s sound nice


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 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
ENGINSEER CONFIRMED HQ!!!!

Yup!

this is the most exciting thing to come out of all this yet

GUYS GUYS GUYS



At long last.

As for the Forge Worlds traits we've had so far, I'm disappointed that Mars will probably still be the most competitive choice thanks to the Uber Cawl, prepare to see Cawl + 6 Kastelans + 4 Onagers in every Imperial soup abomination lists in the near future.

Graia is really interesting and have somewhat original features, it's nice that it allows you to get back our precious FnP while still keeping the ++ (I'd have traded the ++ for the FnP honestly), and having the whole army having it even when fleeing is a nice feature. The shooting in CC thing looked amazing to me at first, then I remembered you're supposed to survive two rounds of CC against your unit of Vanguards for you to have the chance to kill a few with your Radium carbines. I can see it being pretty potent against weak hordes, given you still have a decent support. They'll most likely fall back when engaged by those though, but it can allow you some nice psychological shenanigans with the opponent. Do you want to make that unit fall back and so be useless for a turn or do you take your chances in striking my Vanguards down with their nice save and FnP ? Although in reality it'll still end in a slaughter in the Vanguards ranks. Still, anything that makes the Vanguards more valuable are welcome in my book. I always wanted to play 20-30 of them but this is of course just a dream until we see their price go down and their survivability go up.

I'm eager to see the other five Forge Worlds rules before making my mind (and having read the codex of course) but for now Graia is the better choice for my playstyle, even if not the perfect one.

Can't wait to model my own Enginseers ! Really happy about this

EDIT: God damnit I wanted to be the one announcing the news

Now they just need to drop 3 points between kastelans onagers and the enginseer.... so I can fit a knight in at 1000 points and my dream of a 1000 point toughness 7/8 army will become realized

 Aaranis wrote:

EDIT: God damnit I wanted to be the one announcing the news

Sorry bud!

Guess who just ordered 3 Enginseers before they go out of stock (maybe perhaps).
I always wanted the model. And since there are 2 different ones - I just went for my good old 3x per unit strategy

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
ENGINSEER CONFIRMED HQ!!!!
Also, they don't know about using the Mars' stratagem on both Kastelan's shooting things. Also the sole 6+ save might save additional wounds. For example if you get hit by 3 damage, you might go to 1 with that one 6+ roll to stay aline. And not 3 6+ rolls. But both of these have been sent to FAQ

HEY MOM!! I GOT A PROMOTION!!!!



Assuming points stay the same this means an Enginseer and four Servitors w/ two plasma cannons will come in at about 15 points less than a Dominus.

For me there will always and forever only be one enginseer model the metal version of this

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Imperial-Guard-Techpriest-Enginseer-2

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Guess who just ordered 3 Enginseers before they go out of stock (maybe perhaps).
I always wanted the model. And since there are 2 different ones - I just went for my good old 3x per unit strategy

And I will likely be getting this one. Because it looks just so much cooler. Plus I can use the servitor things for... scenery or something.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
ENGINSEER CONFIRMED HQ!!!!
Also, they don't know about using the Mars' stratagem on both Kastelan's shooting things. Also the sole 6+ save might save additional wounds. For example if you get hit by 3 damage, you might go to 1 with that one 6+ roll to stay aline. And not 3 6+ rolls. But both of these have been sent to FAQ

Is your second part of this referring to the Graia trait? I assume it is, but there's no point sending for an FAQ as the rule is very clear. You only get the 6+++ on slain or fleeing models. So on a multiwound model, you would only get the 6+ after they lose their final wound, you definitely would not get 3 6+ rolls.

So it's a great trait for single-wound models, so units of priests or vanguard get a LOT of mileage out of it. Dragoons and Kastellan get a lot less out of it, but still nice to have that 1/6 chance of staying alive an extra turn.


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 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Guess who just ordered 3 Enginseers before they go out of stock (maybe perhaps).
I always wanted the model. And since there are 2 different ones - I just went for my good old 3x per unit strategy

And I will likely be getting this one. Because it looks just so much cooler. Plus I can use the servitor things for... scenery or something.

I also plan to buy that model, though I was going to use it in a totally seperate thing lol. Is a nice model, and I like the servo-skulls too

Also, they don't know about using the Mars' stratagem on both Kastelan's shooting things

It is phase reliant based on the wording, so why would it not work for all of their shooting?

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Guess who just ordered 3 Enginseers before they go out of stock (maybe perhaps).
I always wanted the model. And since there are 2 different ones - I just went for my good old 3x per unit strategy

And I will likely be getting this one. Because it looks just so much cooler. Plus I can use the servitor things for... scenery or something.

I bought the set of those type servitors a few months ago and converted two of them to carry plasma cannons. Should have them finished painting in a few day. In the meantime...

gendoikari87 wrote:
Maybe, gonna depend on how many is a few extra points. I don't actually use the heavy weapons because I make heavy use of psybolt ammunition. A daemon hammer hittin on 3s sound nice


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
ENGINSEER CONFIRMED HQ!!!!

Yup!

this is the most exciting thing to come out of all this yet

They're 7 more points, so look at it as 5 points for the extra wound and 2 for the extra attack.
If you're that concerned about price, they start at a base of 165 of three dudes. More specifically you get 10 wounds from the regular ones at 240 points, and 12 wounds with the Paladins is 220 points.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Also, they don't know about using the Mars' stratagem on both Kastelan's shooting things

It is phase reliant based on the wording, so why would it not work for all of their shooting?

Well they said they don't know. They'll ask. So obviously this isn't so obvious

Also does the Enginseer do anything besides repair D3 on a vehicle? I get they're cheaper but if they don't do anything else I'm not sure how much more I'd use them over a regular Tech Priest.

 Solis Luna Astrum wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Guess who just ordered 3 Enginseers before they go out of stock (maybe perhaps).
I always wanted the model. And since there are 2 different ones - I just went for my good old 3x per unit strategy

And I will likely be getting this one. Because it looks just so much cooler. Plus I can use the servitor things for... scenery or something.

I bought the set of those type servitors a few months ago and converted two of them to carry plasma cannons. Should have them finished painting in a few day. In the meantime...

Spoiler:

.
Those are the Scyllax. Similar, but I think much larger than the ones with the Macrotek.

Niiru wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
ENGINSEER CONFIRMED HQ!!!!
Also, they don't know about using the Mars' stratagem on both Kastelan's shooting things. Also the sole 6+ save might save additional wounds. For example if you get hit by 3 damage, you might go to 1 with that one 6+ roll to stay aline. And not 3 6+ rolls. But both of these have been sent to FAQ

Is your second part of this referring to the Graia trait? I assume it is, but there's no point sending for an FAQ as the rule is very clear. You only get the 6+++ on slain or fleeing models. So on a multiwound model, you would only get the 6+ after they lose their final wound, you definitely would not get 3 6+ rolls.

So it's a great trait for single-wound models, so units of priests or vanguard get a LOT of mileage out of it. Dragoons and Kastellan get a lot less out of it, but still nice to have that 1/6 chance of staying alive an extra turn.

It means if the Dragoon got a 12 damage shot somehow, he can live with a single 6+. Like, it doesn't matter what the damage is, it ignores all and stays on 1
That's what they will ask around and post on the FAQ

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
Maybe, gonna depend on how many is a few extra points. I don't actually use the heavy weapons because I make heavy use of psybolt ammunition. A daemon hammer hittin on 3s sound nice


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
ENGINSEER CONFIRMED HQ!!!!

Yup!

this is the most exciting thing to come out of all this yet

They're 7 more points, so look at it as 5 points for the extra wound and 2 for the extra attack.
If you're that concerned about price, they start at a base of 165 of three dudes. More specifically you get 10 wounds from the regular ones at 240 points, and 12 wounds with the Paladins is 220 points.

wait what paladins? 7 points that's it wtf ?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also does the Enginseer do anything besides repair D3 on a vehicle? I get they're cheaper but if they don't do anything else I'm not sure how much more I'd use them over a regular Tech Priest.

Yep. That is all they do. But for a measly 52pt we open up a second detachment or enable a battalion, instead of the 135pt we have to pay for a TPD.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 Solis Luna Astrum wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Guess who just ordered 3 Enginseers before they go out of stock (maybe perhaps).
I always wanted the model. And since there are 2 different ones - I just went for my good old 3x per unit strategy

And I will likely be getting this one. Because it looks just so much cooler. Plus I can use the servitor things for... scenery or something.

I bought the set of those type servitors a few months ago and converted two of them to carry plasma cannons. Should have them finished painting in a few day. In the meantime...

.
Those are the Scyllax. Similar, but I think much larger than the ones with the Macrotek.

True, but you could do the same style of conversion with either. I think both are fantastic looking models, much better than the cartoon style metal servitors GW currently sells.

gendoikari87 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
Maybe, gonna depend on how many is a few extra points. I don't actually use the heavy weapons because I make heavy use of psybolt ammunition. A daemon hammer hittin on 3s sound nice


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
ENGINSEER CONFIRMED HQ!!!!

Yup!

this is the most exciting thing to come out of all this yet

They're 7 more points, so look at it as 5 points for the extra wound and 2 for the extra attack.
If you're that concerned about price, they start at a base of 165 of three dudes. More specifically you get 10 wounds from the regular ones at 240 points, and 12 wounds with the Paladins is 220 points.

wait what paladins? 7 points that's it wtf ?

Yeah. To be fair to get any of the Heavy Weapons you need to get them at 5 man squads, but you're mostly concerned about the Psybolt Ammo Strategem and screening that isn't a concern.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also does the Enginseer do anything besides repair D3 on a vehicle? I get they're cheaper but if they don't do anything else I'm not sure how much more I'd use them over a regular Tech Priest.

Yep. That is all they do. But for a measly 52pt we open up a second detachment or enable a battalion, instead of the 135pt we have to pay for a TPD.

I suppose, but I'm still iffy on it. Still it's basically another Dragoon or Vanguard squad saved so I'm curious how it'll catch on.

Holy crap yeah going paladins as I regularly have a spare 35 points 5 man squad too cause that's what I got. Them infiltrators a gkgm tpd 2 kastelans and two onager is what I'll be trying Friday the

well its good that i build a enginseer out of scrap parts then. Finally am able to use him
Graia seems cool, at least there is a chance to get kastelans in shooty protocol out of combat by shooting them^^
But all in all I think Mars still takes the cake...atm.