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Even if vanguard goes to 9 and ranbers to 8 .

The engiseer mut be revamped. If he has options if he has aura if he has abilities and optional gear maybe. And thats big maybe. And all this talk still to be par with other armies. Not actually benefiting something from the codex.

The no transport 6 move for priest no other hq no other aura. The design of taking up a warlord trait to be viable in melee or using a stratagem like we are ig spamming them is disapointing. Yet again.

I m happy for a lower cost maybe with some relics things will seem a bit less bad designed but still. What will i do when i want to make a fast dragoon outrider detach? What will a 45 /5 vanguard do when i need brigades and battalions? With a limited no use engiseer . Now that you gave vanguard maybe a role you make the non movable arquebus rangers cheaper?? Are you mocking the ad mech community really?

Why not making a datasmith wich is actually a good unit. Why not making priests command unit? And giving us the option to make dogma good melee detachment.

You present a forge world traits while you already know the issues. They just made the priests another static gunline and??? The worthy traits are still a gun line.

And i dont want to get more upset since i only ask basics. Seen meta of the game we all saw what was going on with the game i even said the guilman flier list on release. Its not i want to get all the love. Dont give transports dont give nothing. At least try and make the army playble. You gave us superb tanks ok. We cant have all. Ok i agree but dont go and make us walk 6 intch all infantry. They are same low toughness like the rest of the armies nowdays why cant we pay for a transport. Why cant we mix max our lists with deep strikes if we want or change weapons or decide hq s . Play a melee heavy army with our canticle. And generlly just have some basic options. I gotta decide 6+ fnp shooting melee or melee hq . Why. If i decide to play melee i need an hq aura even if it sucks and some melee units maybe a way to deep strike or transport them. Cant be that hard.

As for bubble warp cheap infantry etc ig is beyond and it should be. Ok at least give me the elite infantry role for imperium below marines in melee but good at shooting or something. Ok you have then give hq options declare us static. And get the cost of making detachments lower than 9-8 and 52 per hq and unit.or buff the max unit count. Or buff if we take 15. Or whatever.

Today you said metalica relent dogma. Why not give them the old scout rule? Tactical you have not adressed the issues we facing. We got enough shooting no need more we all agreed a transport or toughness. We can t walk 6 all game. Why would i care for not getting -1 on rapid weapons or assault . Who cares. How we will get the priest up the field how we gonna deep strike objectives or threats. Same o same o. We gonna drop a 135 dogma tech priest with arc (none uses) and kataphrons again?? That we don t even yet have?? And it was again a formation last edition not seen much when drop pods left our list. Again dogmas unsuable. 500 cost units. 100+ for infiltrators to deep strike and kill soldiers??? For real. Vanguard and rangers rushing in 10 mans to shoot infwntry with wter guns?. Why not give +3+2 Cp s on tech priest and engiseer with out being warlords and let us play spearhead.

Where are you going with this really. If we are to remain stationary army and thats it with no melee like tau then ye everyone wants the -1 to be hit! And we ll be all the same.

I guess I'm ambivalent (a bit) as there's no way GW would make enough changes to take us from a bottom tier army to a top tier army. They just don't do that. Taking that off the table... things will get a bit better. Is it the balanced, well thought-out army I was hoping for? Probably not. Is my griping about it going to change things? Definitely not. Been down that road many times in the past... there's no benefit in it.

Frankly I'll be happy if they don't nerf us the way they did the infiltrators in the first FAQ. That... and now I'm pretty sure that I won't have to go out and buy dozens of skitarii to paint up. Win for me! I've got two units of 25 conscripts that have worked very well as a screening force. I'm good with that.

 Gitsplitta wrote:
I guess I'm ambivalent (a bit) as there's no way GW would make enough changes to take us from a bottom tier army to a top tier army. They just don't do that. Taking that off the table... things will get a bit better. Is it the balanced, well thought-out army I was hoping for? Probably not. Is my griping about it going to change things? Definitely not. Been down that road many times in the past... there's no benefit in it.

Frankly I'll be happy if they don't nerf us the way they did the infiltrators in the first FAQ. That... and now I'm pretty sure that I won't have to go out and buy dozens of skitarii to paint up. Win for me! I've got two units of 25 conscripts that have worked very well as a screening force. I'm good with that.

I am about to grab some TechThralls for count-as Conscripts and likely will mod up an Overseer (Commissar), just so I can try them out. Should be fun to paint and gives me an excuse to throw in some assassins and Celestine. Things I want to paint, in other words, that are also good in game.

We wont have 10 man infantry or 20 man conscripts with orders. They did a mistake and gave our veratile army the ig buff. And instead of being a cheap army and us the versatile one we switched roles. While they nerfed us as well. Sergeant no fnp etc.

I dont know why maybe cause they wanted to make ig something else and they are not. Making us marins wont happen and since i saw that orders system i knew we where going to be disapointed. The versatile army paper low toughness but with +1+2+3 -1-2-3 doctrinas we had where a choise that made this army work. We cwnt hwve that we already gave orders to ig. Thts about it. There is a role mech becoming a tank army since none has our tanks. Thats that we got the best gun there nd we prolly gonna get knights as well. Thats it.

There is no room for no more. And i got no issue playing my robots witn mortals and onqgers with neutrons. I was just hoping a small issue being fixed to play my other units. Seems like we gonna be ig in front and ad mech behind with sisters or marines as elite options. Deal with it.

Forget all other issues maybe if we get some lesser infwntry with toughnes cheaper or some hq options we ll make some cps.

As i see it they wont change our role they dont want all armies having ll options ok made clear

Where we gonna find extra cps . Ask that and maybe if they give us some extra cps while using engiseer or when we use ig then mybe we gonna keep more ad mech else . We gonna soon change also to imperium chars for cp s.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:


I am about to grab some TechThralls for count-as Conscripts and likely will mod up an Overseer (Commissar), just so I can try them out. Should be fun to paint and gives me an excuse to throw in some assassins and Celestine. Things I want to paint, in other words, that are also good in game.

Actually, one of my two units of "conscripts" is made up of 30k tech thralls. they work quite nicely. I'd rather have both units be tech thralls but I got the guardsmen for the second unit cheap... which the tech thralls unfortunately aren't.

Mixed feelings.

On the one hand, these changes are good. They are trying to make Skitarii an aggressive mobile gun line again. 7E relic spam was a thing, and it was one of the more fun armies. Really, all we need now is some way to protect our Skitarii as they advance. Before, it was attaching Cawl+Secutarii or Dominus+Conversion Field+Omnissiah's Grace to soak up wounds. Now, maybe some relic?

The new Doctrina is good. 1 CP to cancel out to-hit penalties. And don't forget, it affects Dunecrawlers because they are Skitarii and there is no infantry requirement; it can matter if you're shooting tricky stuff. Sadly, it does not affect Taser Dragoons.

The Metallica warlord trait is bad because of the short range. I mean, they could have done it so that it's units within 6" or any unit with a data-tether. That would be fluffy and cool. But 6" won't cut it if you're running a game with 1000 points worth of Skitarii.

In summary, if anyone wants to run Skitarii, it looks like Metallica troops with an Enginseer (who is a glorified relic holder) and a crapton of Martian Crawlers with Cawl as warlord. And that's something I don't like. They seem to be locking us into certain choices to play an army effectively rather than just giving us those tools be default.

Anyhow, all this makes me really wish for something like a Vanguard or Ranger Prime as HQ--plus a Skitarii command squad with 4 special weapons. This Vanguard or Ranger Prime could then have a Doctrina Imperative ability that gives +1WS/-1BS or +1BS/-1WS that turn for all Skitarii.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and if the point drop for Vanguard and Rangers are true, I think Rangers might actually be the better choice for your bulk troops. Why? Because you get one additional body every 72 points spent (an entire extra unit at 360 points), and Rapid Fire weapons get a better bonus than Assault weapons. The former gets to become Assault after you advance and Assault just gets +1 to hit. The superior range and ability to shoot twice at half of that range also remains.

In fact, I can sort of see Plasma Caliver Vanguard and Arc Rifle Rangers being the new standard.

The only way I can realistically see me using calivers or arc rifles again is if a whole unit of 5 can all have one...I'd have to find some way of keeping them alive though' which really is the crux -of the matter.

Wouldn't it be nice if corpuscarii dropped to 10ppm. The past 3 focus articles are pretty insistent that we start using them, they benefit from virtually everything announced so far.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, quick thought: Cawl with the adamantine arm and +1 str canticle wounds a knight on a 2+

Very interesting, it's like Adeptus Mechanicus is being themed as a ranged heavy army that instead of using meat shields to protect against assault, it uses army wide mechanics or stratagems...

So we now have a generic Ad Mech trait that for 1CP lets my Icarus Dunecrawler hit on a 2+, and a dogma which prevents Kastellan Dakka robots being bogged down in combat.

:Notbadface:

Dang. !metallicas trait could have been almost really useful on ballistarii.

At least that stratagem is.

A Metalica enginseer protecting onagers and kastelan to get ooc seems to be quite nice since the biggest problem for our artillery is being in close combat and not get the chance to shoot. Now the problem is that cawls aura is only for Mars units...and that sucks. I see the reason behind Metalica because its adressing the right issue. Still this constant conscript talking is just stupid. They will get nerfed in CP. And you dont need them. Learn to build a screen with 15-20 vanguard and one or 2 dragoons. Its so easy. If you need 50 dudes as a screening unit you are doing it wrong.

Actually the more I think, the more I like that stratagem.

3 x Las Balistarri become an amazing anti flyer unit. Also could totally negate the move and fire penalty.

i'm starting to form ideas about metallica. Protector Doctrina imperative.... plus the trait. that lets you fall back and shoot at -1 with heavy weapons, 5+ for kastelans and 4+ for balistarii that's not nothing...

Edit: sonuva it only works on skitarii so balistarii and crawlers


Automatically Appended Next Post:
hmmmm the balistari already come with data tethers ...... so +2 ....-2 so 3+ retreating from meele.... oh and you can probably get at least 2 enginseers for the cost of your old TPD so you can litter the board with them, in multiple detatchments.... giving you plenty of CP.

Octovol wrote:
The only way I can realistically see me using calivers or arc rifles again is if a whole unit of 5 can all have one...I'd have to find some way of keeping them alive though' which really is the crux -of the matter.

Exactly. Late 7E showed that Skitarii were competitive because their guns were amazingly good. You just need to somehow get them in range of the enemy.

Octovol wrote:

Oh, quick thought: Cawl with the adamantine arm and +1 str canticle wounds a knight on a 2+

I hate to burst your bubble, but only Metallica models can take the Arm, and Cawl is always a Mars model.

 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:

So we now have a generic Ad Mech trait that for 1CP lets my Icarus Dunecrawler hit on a 2+, and a dogma which prevents Kastellan Dakka robots being bogged down in combat.

And massed Twin Autocannon Ballistarii, which can now move and shoot reliably thanks to this stratagem.

Kastelans cannot fall back while in Protector mode. In fact, they cannot move at all.

Couple quick clarifications guys.

Call cannot take the arm, not only is he mars but is a named character.

Rangers get 1 shot only as they are now assault 1 weapons.

Fallback and shoot only works on skitarii units, no priest no services no robots.

I'm thinking something like this for Metallica

HQ
Techpriest

Elite
Datasmith

Heavy support
1x4 Kastelans
3x2 or 2x3 Autocannon ballistarii

Superheavy
bare bones knight crusader

 gally912 wrote:

Rangers get 1 shot only as they are now assault 1 weapons.

Only after they advance though. If they move and shoot, it's still Rapid Fire 1.

Yoda79 wrote:
We wont have 10 man infantry or 20 man conscripts with orders. They did a mistake and gave our veratile army the ig buff. And instead of being a cheap army and us the versatile one we switched roles. While they nerfed us as well. Sergeant no fnp etc.


Where we gonna find extra cps . Ask that and maybe if they give us some extra cps while using engiseer or when we use ig then mybe we gonna keep more ad mech else . We gonna soon change also to imperium chars for cp s.

I have a quite playable 2000 point list, all Ad Mech, that generates 15 command points using the new Enginseer HQ and reduced price Rangers.

 Solis Luna Astrum wrote:

Yoda79 wrote:
We wont have 10 man infantry or 20 man conscripts with orders. They did a mistake and gave our veratile army the ig buff. And instead of being a cheap army and us the versatile one we switched roles. While they nerfed us as well. Sergeant no fnp etc.


Where we gonna find extra cps . Ask that and maybe if they give us some extra cps while using engiseer or when we use ig then mybe we gonna keep more ad mech else . We gonna soon change also to imperium chars for cp s.

I have a quite playable 2000 point list, all Ad Mech, that generates 15 command points using the new Enginseer HQ and reduced price Rangers.

Can you post that list?

I am actually skeptical of Enginseer spam. I mean, I get that people are excited about having a cheap HQ, but remember that just like how Cawl is superior to TPD at a certain point value, TPD is superior to Enginseers at a certain value as well. Quite frankly, I don't think they are worth the 52 points or the Skitarii worth the CPs, so I would still use them sparingly. (Focus on fundamentals: Martian army with Cawl and a crapton of artillery.)

As someone who has 80-100 Bodies of Skitarri..

I really like Metallica (Shame they didn't add more references)

Really looking forward to my Ad.Mech now. Just need to get some more Dunecrawlers....

The testers pretty much admited that Metallica was sub par

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
The testers pretty much admited that Metallica was sub par

Source?

Suzuteo wrote:

Can you post that list?

I am actually skeptical of Enginseer spam. I mean, I get that people are excited about having a cheap HQ, but remember that just like how Cawl is superior to TPD at a certain point value, TPD is superior to Enginseers at a certain value as well. Quite frankly, I don't think they are worth the 52 points or the Skitarii worth the CPs, so I would still use them sparingly. (Focus on fundamentals: Martian army with Cawl and a crapton of artillery.)

BRIGADE DETACHMENT +9 COMMAND POINTS

HQ
TECH-PRIEST DOMINUS W/ ERADICATION RAY & MACRO-STUBBER 141
TECH-PRIEST ENGINSEER W/ POWER AXE & LASPISTOL 52
TECH-PRIEST ENGINSEER W/ POWER AXE & LASPISTOL 52

TROOPS
5 VANGUARD 45
5 VANGUARD 45
5 VANGUARD 45
5 VANGUARD 45
5 RANGER 2 W/ TRANSURANIC ARQUEBUS 90
5 RANGER 2 W/ TRANSURANIC ARQUEBUS 90

ELITES
9 FULGERITE ELECTRO-PRIESTS 144
CYBERNETICA DATASMITH 52
5 SICARIAN INFILTRATORS 130

FAST ATTACK
SYDONIAN DRAGOON W/ TASER LANCE 68
SYDONIAN DRAGOON W/ TASER LANCE 68
SYDONIAN DRAGOON W/ TASER LANCE 68

HEAVT SUPPORT
3 KASTELAN ROBOTS 330
ONAGER DUNECRAWLER W/ NUTRON LASER 160
ONAGER DUNECRAWLER W/ ICCARAS ARRAY 147

BATTALION DETACHMENT +3 COMMAND POINTS

HQ
2X TECHPRIEST ENGINSEERS 104
5 RANGERS 40
5 RANGERS 40
5 RANGERS 40
TOTAL POINTS 1996

Gives me 7 Vanguard and Ranger units to act as bubble wrap/objective sitters letting me keep the two Arqubus units back near the TPD for re-rolls. Enginseers, Datasmiths and TPD allow for plenty of healing on the Omagers, Robots and Dragoons, depending on deploymenrt. Dragoons can act act screeners for first turn deep strike protection then move to objectives or tie up units as needed. Fulgarites are kept in reserve as a counter-charge measure for anything that does make it into my deployment zone turns 1-3. Since 9 Fulgarites will kill most units they charge I then have a unit of screeners with a 3++ save. Infiltrators come in turn by three to take objectives if needed, hide in opponents back field for linebreaker or harass backfield vehicles. Not a tournament list but very playable in regular games and as said generates 15 command points so lots of re-rolls and stratagems as needed.

 ph34r wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
The testers pretty much admited that Metallica was sub par

Source?

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/174498511
53:40
They can't outright say it is terrible because they have to save face

I guess it's playable... but good luck taking down a Knight (or three...), Razorback spam, or pretty much any non-horde army...

I got Admech to be a bit more elite shooting for my IG, only to find out my Metallica are just IG in all but name only since their traits are just orders I have access to with IG anyways


One small thing I saw that I kind of liked, the Metallica Warlord trait just says "Metallica" unit, not infantry. So essentially if you have your warlord babysitting some onagers in the back, and they get assaulted for whatever reason, you can fall back with them and still fire, which is kind of nice. Not game winning, and with my kind of army the odds of them getting charged are laughably small if I were to run them with my guard, but a handy trick for people that are using Onagers as ranged backup. Makes them infinitely more useful than Leman Russes for me, since the usual issue I run into is my tanks being shut down by assault. Not sure I like having to make a Dominus my warlord but I guess he's more durable than a Company Commander or something.

I don't really have much use for my infantry with Admech but I guess it'll help them somewhat keep up with my guardsmen who will be using "forwards for the Emperor!" Basically just sprinkle them in among the line infantry or perhaps use them as a backfield firefighting unit since I fight a stupid amount of deepstrikers and outflankers in my meta.

Kind of underwhelmed to be honest, and the worst part is they still probably wont release Metallica decals, meaning I'll have to hunt down a sheet on ebay or make my own somehow if I want to commit to running them.

Except you would have to downgrade rerolls to reroll 1s to get the ability to run away...

So far with what is revealed if anyone thinks you can make a competitive list without a Mars detachment - they're a silly person. Hopefully that changes

Even if you disregard Cawl, Mars is still leagues better than Graia and Metallica.

Suzuteo wrote:
I guess it's playable... but good luck taking down a Knight (or three...), Razorback spam, or pretty much any non-horde army...

Of course it's playable. Is it a perfect list against all armies, no nothing is. A Knight wouldn't bother me, three would be hard, but unless you design a list to deal with three Knights that's hard for anyone, and that list would be weak against hoard armies. Razorback span I think I could do ok on, Astra Militarum Gun Line would be tough.

 Solis Luna Astrum wrote:

Of course it's playable. Is it a perfect list against all armies, no nothing is. A Knight wouldn't bother me, three would be hard, but unless you design a list to deal with three Knights that's hard for anyone, and that list would be weak against hoard armies. Razorback span I think I could do ok on, Astra Militarum Gun Line would be tough.

How would you handle Razorback spam? Honest question. If I were them, I would focus down your Neutron Crawler, then spend the rest of the game kiting you to death. That's always been THE problem for our infantry-based armies.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
So far with what is revealed if anyone thinks you can make a competitive list without a Mars detachment - they're a silly person. Hopefully that changes

Unless the relics give us bubble shields or character aggro, I have no idea how any Metallica army will work. Graia might be viable for a detachment of screening Skitarii (probably a Battalion like in Solis Luna Astrum's list, though I would prefer Plasma Caliver Vanguard with a single TPD), but only because they'd be annoying to kill and can shoot at point blank range.