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 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Fulgurites do D3 damage and have AP2. The D3 mortal wounds are barelly better against the targets you want them to fight. It basically becomes AP6 and spills over, which isn't that great when you already want them to fight multi-wound units and AP2 leaves most on 5+ or 6+ or no save. And yeah, it pierces invul when it is relevant. If it was D3 MW in addition to their damage, or they proced not only once every 5 models, then it would be good. Right now they don't have a place in the army. I'm doing mathammer right now and they're only good against the multiwound non-vehicle/monster models.

Despite Fulgurites having AP 2, against a save of 4+, Corpuscarii actually do the same amount of damage for 10 less pts. And if you include a re-roll through Dominus/Cawl and a potential charge - they are a lot better.

dont forget that marsmortal wound strategem iirc the shooty priests explode hits on a 6 and he strat goes on wound rolls so the gauntlets get you to more wound rolls and the wound rolls get you mortal wounds and thanks to split fire you can target multiple units for full effect.

IF. The deep strike rule is true and you use it at the start of the game not in the shooting phase you can deep strike in a max unit of priests and basically fry enemy's entire army then charge for more mortal wounds


Not the biggest expert on priests so someone correct me if wrong. Also this assumes the deep strike is NOT lucious exclusive

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
I mean, people say that but they're not really good mathamer wise. Bloodletters are about twice as good damage wise.
Fulgurites are great vs multiple wound dudes with lowish armour. That usually means stuff with 2-4 hp. And most of that stuff is bad and out of the meta.
Corpuscarii are much better. The only knock they have is no 3++ after a kill
Fulgurites only have 10 attacks for 5 dudes. And they miss a third of them. Their str isn't amazing so they can't really take on vehicles and monster too well. And the Mortal wounds only happen once for every 5 dudes per fight phase. Which isn't great...

I dunno, if melee was what you're missing, Fulgurites seem better to me. Same number of base attacks in melee as corps, same str but with -2 ap and d3 dmg or d3 mortals on a 6 to wound? They both wound equally averagely, whereas the corps will end up with slightly more attacks but with no ap and only a single wound if your opponent fails their save. Granted corps get to fire back on overwatch and can fire normally (and advance with no penalty if you're metalica) I dunno i'm inclined to keep a squad of fulgs as a counter charge because in most of my game invariably someone tries to take out my onagers and robots in melee with superior mobility. And i'd probably replace vanguard with corps if i didn't have to take troops for cps.

Alternatively you could do this with infiltrators and flechette blasters

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Fulgurites do D3 damage and have AP2. The D3 mortal wounds are barelly better against the targets you want them to fight. It basically becomes AP6 and spills over, which isn't that great when you already want them to fight multi-wound units and AP2 leaves most on 5+ or 6+ or no save. And yeah, it pierces invul when it is relevant. If it was D3 MW in addition to their damage, or they proced not only once every 5 models, then it would be good. Right now they don't have a place in the army. I'm doing mathammer right now and they're only good against the multiwound non-vehicle/monster models.

Despite Fulgurites having AP 2, against a save of 4+, Corpuscarii actually do the same amount of damage for 10 less pts. And if you include a re-roll through Dominus/Cawl and a potential charge - they are a lot better.

I mean i haven't done the math, but surely a single attack on a 6 to guarantee 1-3 wounds is better than 2-3 attacks that could be easily saved? Prove me wrong, because invariably i'll be buying some form of priest soon and i'm open to being schooled.

I'll be converting those models are gak

gendoikari87 wrote:
Alternatively you could do this with infiltrators and flechette blasters

Different roles. Infiltrators do not straddle your gunline and counter-assault. They are meant to come in to take distant objectives or harass the opponent's backfield.

Fulgurites park near the gunline and charge in when something gets close.

Corpuscarii are junk because they have a 0 AP gun and a measly 12" range. We have better shooting on more durable platforms elsewhere (lol Robots) - they are just not that useful.

Fulgurites occupy a specific role that not much else in our army does, competing only really with Ruststalkers as our assault element, which I think the Fulgurites are just better (albeit less cool looking).

Octovol wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Fulgurites do D3 damage and have AP2. The D3 mortal wounds are barelly better against the targets you want them to fight. It basically becomes AP6 and spills over, which isn't that great when you already want them to fight multi-wound units and AP2 leaves most on 5+ or 6+ or no save. And yeah, it pierces invul when it is relevant. If it was D3 MW in addition to their damage, or they proced not only once every 5 models, then it would be good. Right now they don't have a place in the army. I'm doing mathammer right now and they're only good against the multiwound non-vehicle/monster models.

Despite Fulgurites having AP 2, against a save of 4+, Corpuscarii actually do the same amount of damage for 10 less pts. And if you include a re-roll through Dominus/Cawl and a potential charge - they are a lot better.

I mean i haven't done the math, but surely a single attack on a 6 to guarantee 1-3 wounds is better than 2-3 attacks that could be easily saved? Prove me wrong, because invariably i'll be buying some form of priest soon and i'm open to being schooled.

Corps can shoot and then charge. They can pick what they shoot much better than fulgs pick what they charge. Corps explode on HIT and fire more bullets. Fulgs explode on WOUND and the explosion isn't as impactful AND they have less attacks than Corps have bullets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'll post the math when I'm done. I may have made some mistakes ofc.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

Octovol wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Fulgurites do D3 damage and have AP2. The D3 mortal wounds are barelly better against the targets you want them to fight. It basically becomes AP6 and spills over, which isn't that great when you already want them to fight multi-wound units and AP2 leaves most on 5+ or 6+ or no save. And yeah, it pierces invul when it is relevant. If it was D3 MW in addition to their damage, or they proced not only once every 5 models, then it would be good. Right now they don't have a place in the army. I'm doing mathammer right now and they're only good against the multiwound non-vehicle/monster models.

Despite Fulgurites having AP 2, against a save of 4+, Corpuscarii actually do the same amount of damage for 10 less pts. And if you include a re-roll through Dominus/Cawl and a potential charge - they are a lot better.

I mean i haven't done the math, but surely a single attack on a 6 to guarantee 1-3 wounds is better than 2-3 attacks that could be easily saved? Prove me wrong, because invariably i'll be buying some form of priest soon and i'm open to being schooled.

Corps can shoot and then charge. They can pick what they shoot much better than fulgs pick what they charge. Corps explode on HIT and fire more bullets. Fulgs explode on WOUND and the explosion isn't as impactful AND they have less attacks than Corps have bullets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'll post the math when I'm done. I may have made some mistakes ofc.

Corps can shoot and charge and then what? Get smashed in CC where they are pretty mediocre? And hits on 0 AP weapons aren't that scary. While mortal wounds (that carry over) are pretty solid. The AP -2 is a big deal for getting damage though, as well, and the Fulgurites do more damage per attack. So while Corupscarii might shine against a mob of Boyz, the Fulgurites can pummel anything - including tough walkers, vehicles, etc.

I thought we were specifically talking about making use of strats here so corps aren't ap 0 all the time they deal mortal wounds on both shooting and charge

I've only played a few games but my fulgrite priests were key in a game. I was able to get a charge off with them, unit of 10, and wiped a 5 man tac squad in the first round of CC and they went on to tie up a total of three squads, most of which were killed by the priests, before they finally were taken out. That 3++ is massive for tarpitting. It helped that I managed 3 mortal wounds on the charge, though the field never did a thing.

They can really mess with your opponent if we can DS them into the backfield, or a flank, and can manage to pickoff a unit. It won't work against all armies but I still think it's viable.

gendoikari87 wrote:
I thought we were specifically talking about making use of strats here so corps aren't ap 0 all the time they deal mortal wounds on both shooting and charge

I don't factor in strategems, because there is no telling if we will always get to use them. It is too much of a variable unless it is a direct build-around strategy. And don't forget we have a 3CP "fight again" Strategem for the Priests, so that can help Fulgurites get those critical extra swings in against larger units or ones they can't wipe off the first charge and fight round. I doubt it will see much use, given the cost, but it is a tool we now have.

Mathhamer may say otherwise but even my 5 man squad of fulgurites has always gotten its 3+ in the few games I have played.

Albeit vs Primaris and Plague Marines. They have killed the jetpack primaris guys both games while losing like 2 of their 5 dudes. And then the 3 of them went on to wipe out a 4 man melee terminator squad thanks to some crazy mortal wound rolls

Their version of disgusting resilience certainly helps.

I am waiting for Codex before ordering more models but my inclination right now is I want a much larger unit of them. But I agree they need to be behind your bubble wrap as counter charge or they just get face melted

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
I thought we were specifically talking about making use of strats here so corps aren't ap 0 all the time they deal mortal wounds on both shooting and charge

I don't factor in strategems, because there is no telling if we will always get to use them. It is too much of a variable unless it is a direct build-around strategy. And don't forget we have a 3CP "fight again" Strategem for the Priests, so that can help Fulgurites get those critical extra swings in against larger units or ones they can't wipe off the first charge and fight round. I doubt it will see much use, given the cost, but it is a tool we now have.

forgot about that one... they're really pushing those damn priests....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jaynen wrote:
Mathhamer may say otherwise but even my 5 man squad of fulgurites has always gotten its 3+ in the few games I have played.

Albeit vs Primaris and Plague Marines. They have killed the jetpack primaris guys both games while losing like 2 of their 5 dudes. And then the 3 of them went on to wipe out a 4 man melee terminator squad thanks to some crazy mortal wound rolls

Their version of disgusting resilience certainly helps.

I am waiting for Codex before ordering more models but my inclination right now is I want a much larger unit of them. But I agree they need to be behind your bubble wrap as counter charge or they just get face melted

how on earth do they survive?

If you could get some sort of reroll wounds option on the priests with the mortal wound stuff/fight again that would be amazing


Edit: Gend, they don't charge something full strength until they have their 3+ save, and most things they have charged have been so injured/hurt prior to the opponent getting to fight they have not taken much if any damage. This is why I am debating 10 or even a 15 man squad of them rather than MSU

Jaynen wrote:
If you could get some sort of reroll wounds option on the priests with the mortal wound stuff/fight again that would be amazing


Edit: Gend, they don't charge something full strength until they have their 3+ save, and most things they have charged have been so injured/hurt prior to the opponent getting to fight they have not taken much if any damage. This is why I am debating 10 or even a 15 man squad of them rather than MSU

am I missing something 1w5++ should die to shooting from just about anything and take significant loses on some overwatch matchups?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Even with 5+ fnp that's flimsy in units of 5-10 unless you have the full max squad

gendoikari87 wrote:

Jaynen wrote:
If you could get some sort of reroll wounds option on the priests with the mortal wound stuff/fight again that would be amazing


Edit: Gend, they don't charge something full strength until they have their 3+ save, and most things they have charged have been so injured/hurt prior to the opponent getting to fight they have not taken much if any damage. This is why I am debating 10 or even a 15 man squad of them rather than MSU

am I missing something 1w5++ should die to shooting from just about anything and take significant loses on some overwatch matchups?

The 5+ FNP is a lifesaver. Especially against stuff that is 0 AP, so we get our 5+ armor save (6+ with Cover) and then the FNP. It is really useful against Overwatch, as there is little that comes your way already. But yea, they definitely should park behind some LoS-blocking terrain if you can and only come out when they need to fight!

Overwatch only hits on 6s so in my experience overwatch has actually not been much of a factor

My primary opponent is a GK player, and against him fulgurites are absolute stars. If the enemy will come to you, they are really good.

Hide them out of line of sight to avoid them being stormboltered off the table first turn. Have a datasmith soak overwatch on something that I'm certain they'll kill, and then the melee game is back on a more even footing for a while.

5++ and 5+fnp isn't bad it's between a 4+ and 3+ problem is small units evaporating quick. I can see them being good counter assault units with clever terrai. Use but not something you'd want to be moving to get into cc range with

I keep them in a very conservative spot and then keep them behind bubble wrap and they usually engage deep strikers who come near the big guns etc.

I'd get my vanguard charged, then fall back with the remaining vanguard, shoot at the enemies then charge them with priests mop up and get the 3+ save

interviglium wrote:
My primary opponent is a GK player, and against him fulgurites are absolute stars. If the enemy will come to you, they are really good.

Hide them out of line of sight to avoid them being stormboltered off the table first turn. Have a datasmith soak overwatch on something that I'm certain they'll kill, and then the melee game is back on a more even footing for a while.

The Datasmith is surprisingly tough with that 2+ save! I have used him to tank a few times and loved it. That Gamma Pistol and Fist are nasty!

Having him soak Overwatch from AP 0 or AP -1 is totally doable. He should shrug off most of it. I would be hesitant to throw him into AP -2 or better, as if he dies, they can Overwatch my Fulgurites anyhow so I might as well have just thrown them in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jaynen wrote:
I keep them in a very conservative spot and then keep them behind bubble wrap and they usually engage deep strikers who come near the big guns etc.

I'd get my vanguard charged, then fall back with the remaining vanguard, shoot at the enemies then charge them with priests mop up and get the 3+ save

Solid strategy.

After they have the 3+ I will use them more aggressively

Spamming posts. No base to have a conversation.

You trying to compare whatever comes to your heads.

Again we talking competitve or we talking about the perfect 2 k lists our fellow ad mech player posted?. Cause if you believe competitve has anything to do with me playing the army your are clueless.

Competitive refers atm since we are still have not seen many codex or even all of our vs other tested cost effective units.

Ig provides cp s with cheap bodies versatile with orders to do whatever you want. With a 30 poin cost commander ordering 2* units an elite commisar for 30 to make them durable and ofc all options in deep strike plasma. Its the whole picure you are missing.
The 3+ save of 5 man vanguard wont make them 10 wound ig infantry. 130 poimts infiltrators will never ever gonna be plasma strike. And still plasma with out stratagems rlics orders better cheaper. You talk about 7th when we had elite stqts on survivng with +1 wound + better plasma. + doctrinas to decide melee or shooting. What will ever compare to a 4 man unit of robots with cawl and 6+ on wound mortals? You wont have the same ever again?

40 points rangers. The deal taking cheap soldiers is not to bubble wrap only. Lets say we are pros and with shroud we survive. Like a 10 man ig. Do you have versatile options? Any ig troops can decide with orders what to do as we did with doctrins in 7th. Not decide a dogma and good luck with it.

Secomd most important. Command points. You trying to be smart here? You play competitive and you present a list thwt has nothing than overcosted vqnguard. Overcosted hq. Overcosted fast units over costed deep strike units. You put all our army models inside battlion and you achived what ?? We are blind we cnt do it? Is this competitive? For real

Wanna come ply vs my list + 100 models point wise and better guns bettter options since you will have one deep strike pistol unit while i ll shoot 17 plasma same points. And i wont be missing no dakka either. Might have a bit worse bs+ but you ll drown in dice.

Take a list full of vngiard rangers that dont have the number. Wanna talk how many armies got lots of dice for simple soldiers? Wanna tell us what will your list do vs any army if you loose first turn? Tyranids? Blood angels? Eldar? Tau? Not even worth mentioning mortar spamm and spamming lists.

Low survive low wounds low body counts low cp s and if you take that lists you getting even worse with out enough of our cost effective units. And most important no way to make detachment with differnt dogma without paying taxxxxxxx.
Want to get a 10 man vanguard and your dragoons in a gaia dogma?? How priest elite dragoons fast vanguard soldiers???
And since i dont want to be in the deconstructive side i ll say what i believe to work so far.

Ad mech has turned mechanicum. Onagers Robots dragoons vehicles lots of them. Mars reroll all hits will be better than adding +1 +2 . All mars will reroll all hits and since you will need your icarus to reroll also 3sssss mars will do it for free.

Now with a gaia warlord you can gain a lot. Most likely the unit you need to have tanking bubblewraping. Unf its still a mess to be able to benefit anything from this stupid design you gotta pay again tax. Like we are top tier and they try to not make us op.

Thats said propably so far. Might look like this.

Spearhead Mars

Cawl
1*4 Robots. Must be one unit now. If not more. Wrath of wars on them
3 neutron. Or maybe 1 icarus i dont like icarus atm in here no need. Might be wise to get it one 4th inside other needs.

Maybe brigade maybe somehing simple like outrider.

Gaia tpd warlord. Maybe tax engiseer near dragoons on deploy?
With 10 vanguard 3 plasma bubble front
10 rangers plasma or ac if fixed same reason
5 rangers arq.
Elite
datasmith
5* fulg priests
Fast
Dragoon
Dragoon maybe with jezz both. If gun fixed.depends lance more points no use so far.
And thats it. So far.
The option for deep strike plasma seems good but wont seem viable for a 500 dedstroyers group with tpd.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
I just wanted to dismiss the fact that they do load of damage. They don't. They're rather meh for their pts damage wise.

Tell that to my son who lost his unit of Flayed Ones to my Fulgarites. His FO's never even got to swing.

FOs are terrible :/

I like that Fulgurites can be increased to Str 6 with the Canticles

As i see it when making a lists as odd it might sound

Gaia takes range priests for extra survive and mars melee for double canticle. As i see it so far. The 3+ seems viable enough wnd the only unit trully benefiting the double canticle shoud be melee priests. So i correct the lists and take In mars melee priests and f you want for some bizzare reason more elites range priests on gaia. To survive and keep shooting in melee range.

When we see relics most likely will have to split also vnguard and rangers if we really gonna benefit from those dogmas. Not sure yet wanna see more but seems like they ll need to be split if you decide to have advqncing and or stationary units.

gendoikari87 wrote:
I'll be converting those models are gak

My feelings too, about the looks. I discovered when I built mine that they look loads better if you leave the collar off of them.

 Solis Luna Astrum wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
I'll be converting those models are gak

My feelings too, about the looks. I discovered when I built mine that they look loads better if you leave the collar off of them.

Don't worry, even if you build them with the collar, it will break off anyhow.

One of the most delicate freaking models, despite being so chunky! I regret not pinning mine, but I am sure I will get chances as they break apart.

Here's the mathammer. It is on Sheet "Weapons" on the right side

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0By4SQd_H1eW8YVEySWItVWNkeDA

Feel free to ask questions and find mistakes