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Can I pose a question that is completely outside of current exciting previews? Did someone actually tried screening Kastelans with melee versions of Kastelans? They have everything they need - big bases, large models, 2+ 4++ in aegis mode. Is there a reason why taking 2 units of 2 and leaving them in aegis mode wouldn't be worthwhile?

Lucius Brigade is going to be serious business. Big stacks of full upgrades Vanguard and Ranger blobs are going to be a real thing. You won't have Cawls reroll 1s and 2s to hits, but Techpriests are halfway there with reroll 1s. Phosphorbots and Kataphrons will be much less efficient in Lucius since you can't hump Cawl, but deepstriking 6 10man 3special weapon skitarii squads is going to be a real thing. Not to mention the forgeworld secutarii rules are coming soon so those elite slots are going to get even sweeter to deepstrike.


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Melee Kastelans are terrible for many reasons. First, they need to be in their double attack mode to be even modestly viable for their points. Second, they only have 3 attacks base and deal 3 damage an attack, so they suffer terribly against numerous/elite 1-2 wound models with strong weapons. Third, they hit on a 4+ in combat and you have no good way to increase that. Fourth, their flamer is not assault, so you can't advance and use it, and the flamer becomes 21 deadweight points once you get into double melee mode. Fifth, they have no invul save in combat. Sixth, for literally no reason at all they cost more points than phosphorbots, which are the best point for point shooters in the index.

Melee Robots i used extensively. Its a feared unit helped me a lot in my games. I pressed them forward always but eventually 122 points for 4+ on melee with 3 attacks seems alone in front. Need some help. Drop cost. Be able to change protocols fast. Or have a reroll on melee hits. Maybe a melee hq. Their heavy flamers are a force for charging blops.

244 points are a big deal. Same cost for a vanguard group with power qxes and shields+ liutenant (iron chapter) fall back and charge reroll wounds. Etc. There are much options to take for that kind of points and you d propably need 4 and then we talking knight points. So ...

gendoikari87 wrote:
whats the point of deep striking destroyers?

So they don't get shot before they shoot. And remember they don't get -1 to shoot their heavy weapons after moving. Don't overlook this; very viable tactic against opponents who rely upon their alpha strike. And it's optional so the same roster has flexibility against other opponents.

Lucius is gonna be a thing. Corpuscarii with TPD's will be solid. Lucius vanguard and Mars spearhead seems like a pretty strong core. Battalion of cheap stuff to add CP's I guess would be the other obvious thing.

Thinking of soemthing like:

Spearhead:
Cawl
2x2 phosphor bots
Onager w/ Icarus

Vanguard:
TPD
2x15 Curpuscarii
Infiltrators

Vanguard:
Greyfax
Culexus
Vindicare
Eversor

Not a ton of CP's, but has anti-psyker, anti-air, some disruption models, good shooting and decent board control. It's lacking some screening, assasins and corpuscarii can do that in a pinch.

linds14sr20det wrote:
Lucius is gonna be a thing. Corpuscarii with TPD's will be solid. Lucius vanguard and Mars spearhead seems like a pretty strong core. Battalion of cheap stuff to add CP's I guess would be the other obvious thing.

Thinking of soemthing like:

Spearhead:
Cawl
2x2 phosphor bots
Onager w/ Icarus

Vanguard:
TPD
2x15 Curpuscarii
Infiltrators

Vanguard:
Greyfax
Culexus
Vindicare
Eversor

Not a ton of CP's, but has anti-psyker, anti-air, some disruption models, good shooting and decent board control. It's lacking some screening, assasins and corpuscarii can do that in a pinch.

Lack of Neutronagers is egregious! Also, why 2x2 robots? You can only Wrath once per phase, so you want to make it count. 1x6 means I have six Robots double-tapping with 6's adding mortal wounds. Since you can split fire nowadays, why not? Just need to screen them carefully.

Also forgot datasmith :p

 axisofentropy wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
whats the point of deep striking destroyers?

So they don't get shot before they shoot. And remember they don't get -1 to shoot their heavy weapons after moving. Don't overlook this; very viable tactic against opponents who rely upon their alpha strike. And it's optional so the same roster has flexibility against other opponents.

1CP & 219pt investment in 3d6 Plasma shots is not exactly getting me excited, deep striking or not.

lol plasma

it's the grav, stupid

Grav is sooo 7th edition. It got hit with the nerf bat too hard

 axisofentropy wrote:
lol plasma

it's the grav, stupid

Don't be an ass. You didn't state which and Grav is universally considered crap in this edition, while plasma is solid.

And even still, it is more expensive for Grav and 15 S5 -3 1dmg shots don't get me excited either. The Heavy Phospher has me spoiled. Plus, Kataphrons aren't particularly durable. T5 3W 4+ save? That isn't going to hold up if it deep strikes in.

I would rather take Corpuscarii as suicide squad to strip units down with volume of fire.

Am I the only one who wonders: Why lucius dogma isn't just straight +1 to armor?

I tried fistellans. Way to pricy for what they do. Would need at least WS 3+ and 4 attacks for me to consider them again.

Spera wrote:
Am I the only one who wonders: Why lucius dogma isn't just straight +1 to armor?

Probably considered that too powerful. Which is kinda would have been, honestly.

Spera wrote:
Am I the only one who wonders: Why lucius dogma isn't just straight +1 to armor?

I tried fistellans. Way to pricy for what they do. Would need at least WS 3+ and 4 attacks for me to consider them again.

because tbh with shroudsalm that'd be broken


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Also imagine +1 and cover on double tap kastelans

Might be when combined with Shroudpsalm. But +1 vs AP1 feels weak. Might be wrong, but I either encountered ap0 or ap2+. I don't remember much of heavy bolters being shoot against me.

Spera wrote:
Might be when combined with Shroudpsalm. But +1 vs AP1 feels weak. Might be wrong, but I either encountered ap0 or ap2+. I don't remember much of heavy bolters being shoot against me.

Lots and lots of guns are AP -1, so it does help - just not a lot.

Spera wrote:
Am I the only one who wonders: Why lucius dogma isn't just straight +1 to armor?

I tried fistellans. Way to pricy for what they do. Would need at least WS 3+ and 4 attacks for me to consider them again.

This would be significantly stronger than every other trait in every codex we've seen.

It should have been ap values are one less severe

A Battleforged army starts with 3 cp right? Then you get additional for the detachments?

Jaynen wrote:
A Battleforged army starts with 3 cp right? Then you get additional for the detachments?

That is correct, so an army with just a Battalion for 3 CP starts with 6.

With the opportunity to deep strike, I think kataphrons will make a slight comeback. Not overall in big tourney lists but overall in peoples armies I think they will do better being able to start off the board and get a round of shooting in before taking damage. Pair that with the stratagem to help keep them from dying on a roll of a 1 to plasma, it makes that pretty nasty to vehicles.

I have had luck with kataphrons doing damage to vehicles overcharging but taking casualties to 's early on had cost me a game for sure. Having Cawl or a TPD nearby for rerolls could help big time.

I was pretty against balistarii and dragoons before because I don't like their models but I think having the lascannons is clutch against armor. I only have 1 neutronager so I think 2 balistarii with lascannons can lay down some pain while still being mobile enough to redeploy in my zone if needed.

I see myself running 2 different forge worlds in my army, utilizing mars for sure with cawl and most like lucius to get the kataphrons up close. Opinions on grav versus plasma? (I know they're too many points right now, but bear with me)

Plasma is generally better than Grav this edition, contrary to what I wrote in OP. D2 on overcharge is just so very useful.

Also, your avatar matches mine perfectly.

I'm going to declare the OP invalid for now, while I get ready to update it with new info when the codex drops.

So if knights cant be deep struck, next viable candidates are your prefered flavor of electropriests followed by kataphrons?

Deep striking Kataphrons would be a HUGE deal. They would easily be the longest range deep strike unit in the game. That being said, if we're doing the Raven Guard deep strike, then what we're doing is not normal deep strike per se. It occurs BEFORE the first turn begins. So whatever comes in gets to move.

Why wouldn't Knights get the Forge World keyword? All of the problematic rules we're talking have infantry or another keyword involved. Having that keyword would be necessary to get get reroll buffs and repairs too. You might as well have Imperial Knights if you lack Forge World.

Suzuteo wrote:
Deep striking Kataphrons would be a HUGE deal. They would easily be the longest range deep strike unit in the game. That being said, if we're doing the Raven Guard deep strike, then what we're doing is not normal deep strike per se. It occurs BEFORE the first turn begins. So whatever comes in gets to move.

Why wouldn't Knights get the Forge World keyword? All of the problematic rules we're talking have infantry or another keyword involved. Having that keyword would be necessary to get get reroll buffs and repairs too. You might as well have Imperial Knights if you lack Forge World.

Doesn't make Kataphrons less crappy though, sadly. Unless the prices come down on them, they are still junk.

And for balance? I will be shocked if they get FW keywords.

Suzuteo wrote:
Deep striking Kataphrons would be a HUGE deal. They would easily be the longest range deep strike unit in the game. That being said, if we're doing the Raven Guard deep strike, then what we're doing is not normal deep strike per se. It occurs BEFORE the first turn begins. So whatever comes in gets to move.

Why wouldn't Knights get the Forge World keyword? All of the problematic rules we're talking have infantry or another keyword involved. Having that keyword would be necessary to get get reroll buffs and repairs too. You might as well have Imperial Knights if you lack Forge World.

It's not the Raven Guard deep strike. It's the teleport strike that Terminators get. You come in at the end of the movement phase.

This is honestly better than the Raven Guard/Alpha Legion rule for the purposes of AdMech units because you're not trying to get into melee combat, you're just keeping units off the board so they don't get shot at until you're ready for it.

I'd say Deepstriking in general falls under a couple different uses

* deploying something close to your opponent for an immediate alphastrike
* deploying something in the middle of the board/around an objective as an obstacle to the enemy's movement
* deploying something a little bit later in the rounds to flank or run into the backline of your opponent

I could see different units being better at those different uses

Command plasma squads are so good because they get rapid fire still at 9-12". Corpusarcii or whatever that is have 12" range so they would work but you would not get a TPD or other reroll unit with them and the mortal wounds extra stratagem possibly

Fulgurites are great if they get into combat but now you are 9" away and have to make a charge

Since the cost is for a UNIT a larger unit seems to make the most sense.

The second role might be good with dragoons, incense cloud+ the ap-1 bonus

Another thing that's really amazing about this is that since it works on any Lucius unit you can pick and choose which units you want to protect in the teleportarium on a game-by-game basis. If Magnus is on the other side of the board you can stick your Icarus Array Onager in there and ensure it can't be touched before it gets a round of shooting on Magnus.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Another thing that's really amazing about this is that since it works on any Lucius unit you can pick and choose which units you want to protect in the teleportarium on a game-by-game basis. If Magnus is on the other side of the board you can stick your Icarus Array Onager in there and ensure it can't be touched before it gets a round of shooting on Magnus.

I wouldn't sweat Magnus anymore. A single round from Cawl with six Dakkastelans under Wrath of Mars will end him in one turn!

I wish you could change the protocol for Kastellans easier