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Suzuteo wrote:
I highly doubt that. In the end, they are still T3 1W 6+ with 5+ FNP units that cost 14 points. Conscripts outshoot Electro-Priests on a point-for-point basis by 48%. (Remember, the minimum range of the Corpuscarii is the Rapid Fire range of the Conscript.)

Corps are 6+, 5++, 5+++.

Not 6+ 5+ FnP. Though you can basically ignore the 6+. The back to back 5+ is what counts.

 Marius Xerxes wrote:

Suzuteo wrote:
I highly doubt that. In the end, they are still T3 1W 6+ with 5+ FNP units that cost 14 points. Conscripts outshoot Electro-Priests on a point-for-point basis by 48%. (Remember, the minimum range of the Corpuscarii is the Rapid Fire range of the Conscript.)

Corps are 6+, 5++, 5+++.

Not 6+ 5+ FnP. Though you can basically ignore the 6+. The back to back 5+ is what counts.

That was a typo. I wrote 5+ 5+++ at first, then I wrote 6+ 5++ 5+++, and messed up and deleted the 5++. =(

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:
I'm really liking Lucius - it opens up so much flexibility.

Aside from the obvious Electro Priest deep strike application - it opens up some real utility with Twin Lascannon Balistari.. With a unit of 4 Balistari and 2 CP, we can deploy and fire 8 Lascannons downfield on a 2+ to hit, with no worry about losing them to an alpha strike. Amazing.

They will be hitting on 3+ as they are considered to have moved when they deepstrike in

They have the Broad Spectrum Data Tether which with the Strategm will give a +2 - so would be a 2+

 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:
I'm really liking Lucius - it opens up so much flexibility.

Aside from the obvious Electro Priest deep strike application - it opens up some real utility with Twin Lascannon Balistari.. With a unit of 4 Balistari and 2 CP, we can deploy and fire 8 Lascannons downfield on a 2+ to hit, with no worry about losing them to an alpha strike. Amazing.

They will be hitting on 3+ as they are considered to have moved when they deepstrike in

They have the Broad Spectrum Data Tether which with the Strategm will give a +2 - so would be a 2+

Ah yes, good catch

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:
I'm really liking Lucius - it opens up so much flexibility.

Aside from the obvious Electro Priest deep strike application - it opens up some real utility with Twin Lascannon Balistari.. With a unit of 4 Balistari and 2 CP, we can deploy and fire 8 Lascannons downfield on a 2+ to hit, with no worry about losing them to an alpha strike. Amazing.

They will be hitting on 3+ as they are considered to have moved when they deepstrike in

They have the Broad Spectrum Data Tether which with the Strategm will give a +2 - so would be a 2+

Ah yes, good catch

would it not be better to go 2 lascannon 2 autocannon balistarii for that sort of alpha. 4 lascannon shots and 8 auto cannon shots. the 4 lascannons hitting on 2+ will bring down pretty much what you want in terms of big multi wound units and the autocannons can put the hurt on a squad.

gendoikari87 wrote:

would it not be better to go 2 lascannon 2 autocannon balistarii for that sort of alpha. 4 lascannon shots and 8 auto cannon shots. the 4 lascannons hitting on 2+ will bring down pretty much what you want in terms of big multi wound units and the autocannons can put the hurt on a squad.

I actually think the Autocannon version is better. This is because in terms of role, Neutron Crawlers are superior to Lascannon Ballistarii in every way but move distance, which is of questionable value for something with a 48" range that is expected to slug it out with other vehicles with 48" range weapons. In other words, I can find a use for a 75 point screening unit that can handle infantry, but not as 95 point anti-tank unit that is itself vulnerable to tanks.

Maintaining their 3+ save means your battle servitors will stay in the fight for much longer, while the unique Lucius stratagem, Legio Teleportarium, is perfect for delivering them into optimal combat range.

Yea get katphrons to optimal combat range to fire what?? They are making fun of us in gw.

Knight deep strike is first a reserve option much in need for many costly units. Yes like kataphrons knights etc.

Still when i see elimination volley i cant stop thinking once more how expensive this all stratagems dogmas are. In an army with no cps synergise destroyers troops with Robots heavy. If you think you can make a Mars detachment with troops we heading again to overcosts.

Or once more we gott decide one dogma over the other and those kind of decisions have us low tier thus far.

Always talking about competitive play the fact most local tourneys got detchment restrictions like 2-3 per 2k + the fact that we cant get cheap troopsand cheap hq actully doing something thn being a tax bare bones . ( compared to commisar orders infantry ig) that synergise to get you also deep strike plasma that can deal with any threat. While you gotta pay again tax.

The only good option was to be able to choose from lucius dogma detachment what to place in deep strike. How ill that happen. What for m of detwchment could give you options . Again tax ones either vanguard or patrol to have options. Else you d have to decide before you reach the table. So once more its not an unlimited deep strike option its an expensive one. I will use it and finally we got one option but taking aux and gem starts with -2 cp s to get a knight in reserve....before deploy.

2 wrath /turn for 1-2-3 turns dont be greedy. 1-2 rerolls 1-2-3 deep strike gem ? 3 to play electro priest a second melee time? 2 cp for one melee interuot o you wont loose key char? Average 13 cps with no reall combinatios elkmination maniples bla bla. Impossible and most likely the rest of the armies will get 10 +cp s in already build armies that can do what we will try to do wth relics and stratagems.

Enjoy your pew oew while it lasts cause when other codex come out we going on the bottom again. Maybe with better chances but we dont have yet any real answer. Cost wise points or cps... to make a combination. Cauze just droping a unit of priests as stated that cost around 400 points minimum for a vanguard lucius and 2-4 cp s or more if aux wont win you the game in comparisson to lets say 400 poimts of plasma deep strike ig...


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Suzuteo wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:

would it not be better to go 2 lascannon 2 autocannon balistarii for that sort of alpha. 4 lascannon shots and 8 auto cannon shots. the 4 lascannons hitting on 2+ will bring down pretty much what you want in terms of big multi wound units and the autocannons can put the hurt on a squad.

I actually think the Autocannon version is better. This is because in terms of role, Neutron Crawlers are superior to Lascannon Ballistarii in every way but move distance, which is of questionable value for something with a 48" range that is expected to slug it out with other vehicles with 48" range weapons. In other words, I can find a use for a 75 point screening unit that can handle infantry, but not as 95 point anti-tank unit that is itself vulnerable to tanks.

Being able to have a unit of 3 gives deep strike options. So the option i yes anonager is better but you can change 1onager for a duo lasc balistari. Deep strike them in a corner and make you enemy divide to chase them. Options as i see it. Ye onager is better but can be a problem if you play solo ad mech to bubble wrap all your guns

Hmmm maybe dropping in a Onager with the Beamer could be nice. its basically a meltra drop for 120 pts but its at least something to think about. I am curious if Onagers get their close combat weapon back and if so how that will turn out.

It's too expensive in terms of CP to deep strike Beam Crawlers. Kataphron and Kastelans seem to be the best option. Definitely Knights if they get <Forge World>; they would be terrifying.

Yes an eliminatin volley seems valid as a deep strike. Kat and Robots but in what detach?? What warlord trait lucius bla bla

We don't know the Lucius's warlord trait, but it's probably not better than Mars's.

I already said i d prefer Gaia dominus as warlord for his trait. And most likely it will include troops there

dropping kastelans is a good thought but is it really that useful? They dont have a range problem for their weapons so keeping them in reserve is just for not getting them killed first round. Id say they still belong to Mars and a gunline in the backfield but this is something that needs to be tested.

Cawl onagers can move so if you plan to get only 2 robots its an option. I will definetly try melee robots electrostaff usully melle. Maybe a 10 man infiltrators with mars we ll see we still missing lots of info

when did crawlers have a melee weapon?

They had one in 7th, they may get it back in 8th if GW restores all of the options and rules that they gutted.

gendoikari87 wrote:
when did crawlers have a melee weapon?

7th.

I would prefer a lower point cost for our units even slight one ll over than any buff atm. I dont want onagrs to be melee . I want ranger vanguard alhas as hq options. I want kataprhons reduced cost.

Arc revamped. Radium jezzail revamped. -1 ap on taser weapons. More gamma weapons. And hq with melee auras.

More than any other. Viable options for an army we already got...

Then ill w8 a year for new units like fliers transports 30 k etc gladly.

Iago40k wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
when did crawlers have a melee weapon?

7th.

It was a bloody good one too. Want that on my ruststalkers...need ruststalker love. Desperate to field those models en masse lol

I killed two daemon princes in close combat with my Dunecrawler. Ah, everything was better back in the day.

Suzuteo wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:

would it not be better to go 2 lascannon 2 autocannon balistarii for that sort of alpha. 4 lascannon shots and 8 auto cannon shots. the 4 lascannons hitting on 2+ will bring down pretty much what you want in terms of big multi wound units and the autocannons can put the hurt on a squad.

I actually think the Autocannon version is better. This is because in terms of role, Neutron Crawlers are superior to Lascannon Ballistarii in every way but move distance, which is of questionable value for something with a 48" range that is expected to slug it out with other vehicles with 48" range weapons. In other words, I can find a use for a 75 point screening unit that can handle infantry, but not as 95 point anti-tank unit that is itself vulnerable to tanks.

IMO you summed up why Lascannon Balistarii with the Legio Teleportarium & Protector Doctrina Imperative strategms are so effective. Currently I go Neutron Crawler with Autocannon Balistarii because the Crawler can take a hit and still be effective, as apposed to making the Balistarii into a high-threat target which can be killed easily.

With only 2CP, you can allow the Balistarii unit to come down and lay essentially 6-8 hits on a 2+ (so re-roll that if near your Tech Priest), deleting any significant threat better than a Dunecraler point-for-point, and also importantly freeing up the Dunecrawler to go Icarus without worrying about your anti-tank suffering

Actually here's an idea deep striking onagers with kastelans. Deep strike in t1 or 2 and divide the enemy force. Your classic pincer move. Have a spearhead at opposite ends of the board use remaining points for skirmishers of some kind

I think whatever FW comes out with the -1 to-hit may be the easier way to go for a Ballistarii lascannon unit. Otherwise, it seems CP and point heavy for something that might nuke a tank or two. Which we don't struggle to do as it is.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
I think whatever FW comes out with the -1 to-hit may be the easier way to go for a Ballistarii lascannon unit. Otherwise, it seems CP and point heavy for something that might nuke a tank or two. Which we don't struggle to do as it is.

yeah onagers have us spoiled..... also other things but mainly onagers

Spera wrote:
Will be harder with Mortarion thou. That would put him down to "only" 9 wounds, not adding bodyguards.

If it is a must-kill scenario, I would be tempted to point both Neutronagers at the Deathshroud first to knock them out of the equation.

STUPID MATH.

Working on it...

I think your math is off as the only way lower to hit results in more mortals would be if the wrath of mars went off to hit instead of to wound

gendoikari87 wrote:
I think your math is off as the only way lower to hit results in more mortals would be if the wrath of mars went off to hit instead of to wound

CRAP. Lemme re-do this.

EDIT:

WOUND ROLLS!



SO! Because I am dumb and math and hey... I'm an artist, not a mathematician. There is a reason I got a degree in Fine Art and a C in Algebra.

Looks like with the -1 to-hit power on Morty, we will do 15 wounds after DR. Not bad!

And if they somehow don't put that power on him, we can do up to 21 wounds after DR, which is a dead Primarch!

Also, anyone good at math should definitely check my numbers!

I don't have the wrath of mars in front of me though. Can't remember for sure if it goes off to hit or wound...


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Oh wait it's def wound, to hit with cawl on the board would break the game

Unless im mistaken or nerfed Cawl can reroll all shots not missed ones only. So take your chances and roll for it. Either way the Robots true power is the -2 - cover able to kill campers in mass.

Neutronagers could potentially go for mortarion and if decided to ise also wrath and robots you d propably take down any target. Most other armies got equal strategies other with melee alpha other with deep strike alpha. Ours is still limited on deploy range etc.

I would not take balistari. Sorry. The only thing i like is deep strike a bigger unit to cross my enemy and take some heat of my dakka line still v expnsive and plasma seems to king on that. Split fire overcharge potentially used for varius targets and a troop.

So far as i see kataphrons as troops or maybe some elote choises + knight best deep strike options. Most likely flamers plasma.

If we talking just putting fast units on a detachment for me atm sniper dragoons or lances are my choise. Robots neutronagers better on both options. Even if you decided to go for a anti tank spamm neutron on onagers are still better. Way better even if only 1 out of three shot wound 3-6 damage consistent.

Tpd ( or engiseer) with plasma and or maybe a 10 man 3 plasma vangu. Close to the early 7th combo with drop pods seems to be winning for me. A simple lucius patrol. Maybe some breacher obj holders. A battalion with 2 engiseers 2 * plasma 1 * breachers can actually do serious thing in the field. So expensive but most logical for me. 3 cps batt 4 used on deep strike engiseers and plasms or some variation of that.

So many points still the issue...

I use this web app for my calculations. http://www.mathhammer8thed.com

Mortarion having 3+4++5+++ is sturdy. I din't include -1 to hit from power. And it is possible to have him in your deployment zone in 1st turn, so I'm bit scared of him. My Celestine can do the same but i is much easier to shake her of your units. As our primary power comes from shooting, having to fall back from CC with this guy is extremely hard.