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2017/09/16 16:01:00
Subject: Tactica Mechanicus 2.0 - Deus Est Machina! - Sound The Drum, Agripinaa has Come
I hope nothing goes up. We can't afford to that, as it just shifts points and is a wash. We need point drops across the board to be even remotely competitive and not just a flavor of Imperial Soup (and the worst flavor, too!).
4CP Used, 1CP leftover (mostly for re-rolling a charge die for the Fulgurites)
I am not sure I want to commit to the Fulgurites. At all. But I do love the idea of them getting off a first turn charge somewhat reliably... provided I go first. Otherwise, they are kinda stuck. The Dragoons are a no-brainer. -2 to-hit is silly good for a screening unit, meaning they aren't getting shot off the board and the enemy must shift them in combat, which is what we want generally. And holy crap, they suck less in combat now too! Stygies Enginseer just parks near Cawl and helps repair stuff. The Mars component is straight-forward. One round of Wrathbots, triple Onagers to help knock out units with Fly and to put the hurt on armor. They do what they do and can now spread out a bit more thanks to the enlarged Aura. I will hope for Shroudpsalm for Mars, because it suits them best, but the +1S in CC or the re-roll 1's in fight phase would help the Fulgurites.
Mars Battalion Build w/ Stygies
Spoiler:
Mars Battalion +3CP
HQ:
Cawl
[250]
Techpriest Enginseer
Autocaduceus of Arkhan Land
[52]
7 CP Total
1 for Infiltration - 6 remaining to do Wrath a lot, lol
Same premise as the other list, but differently built. Possibly better.
Still hashing over some stuff.
Did Fulgurites REALLY go up a 1ppm? REALLY GW?! And nothing else really changed in points.
Also, Reece/Reecius or whatever - the guy who was like "just wait" - was so full of it. This is better than the Index, but worse than most other Codices hands down. Bleh. At least we got Wrathbots to help mitigate crap like Primarchs, I guess.
Also we should get more pts reductions in the FAQ if the rumors are true.
YES PLEASE.
Seriously, I have two boxes of unopened Kataphrons. GW, please give me a reason to run those gorgeous models.
Vanguard need to be 8ppm too and even then they don't compare well to similar infantry, but I would take it. I'd much rather run those than Rangers (because I don't want to paint any more effing Rangers).
Priests probably got a point increase because they're significantly better now that they have access to two different methods of instantly appearing wherever they want on the board. Plus bonus attaks and all the other stuff that seems to have been designed to make priests pretty powerful.
Jaynen wrote:Niiru there is a non games workshop company that makes some conversion heads also that might have sizes?
Only non-GW (and non-FW) company I've found with an imperial knight head is the wolf head made by someone on shapeways... but they don't give sizes, and the wolf head is a weird shape anyway so the dimensions wouldn't help.
Can't find any other companies, at least not by googling. All the usual suspects (kromlech, spellcrow, etc) don't seem to do anything.
2017/09/16 16:10:19
Subject: Tactica Mechanicus 2.0 - Deus Est Machina! - Sound The Drum, Agripinaa has Come
I hope nothing goes up. We can't afford to that, as it just shifts points and is a wash. We need point drops across the board to be even remotely competitive and not just a flavor of Imperial Soup (and the worst flavor, too!).
I really doubt that stuff will go up.... That's just asking for a riot
Also, because Corpuscarii are a thing... even if I think it a bit of a gimmick:
Spoiler:
Mars Spearhead +1 CP
HQ: Cawl [250]
Heavy: (6) Kastellan Robots (Wrath of Mars & Binharic) Triple Phosphor [660]
Onager Dunecrawler Neutron & CHS, CHS [145]
Onager Dunecrawler Neutron & CHS, CHS [145]
[1200]
Lucius Vanguard +1 CP
HQ: Techpriest Enginseer [52]
Elites: (12) Corpuscarii (Teleport) [168]
(12) Corpuscarii (Teleport) [168]
(11) Corpuscarii (Teleport) [154]
[542]
Stygies VIII Outrider +1 CP
HQ: Techpriest Enginseer [52]
Fast Attack: Sydonian Dragoon Lance [68]
Sydonian Dragoon Lance [68]
Sydonian Dragoon Lance [68]
[256]
[1998]
The list delivers 35 via Deep Strike while still bringing a lot of pain elsewhere. Not sure it will be that useful. Also... painting up 35 Corpuscarii sounds terrible given how fragile I am sure they are. But they are definitely the cooler looking of the two Priests. Only major issue the list has is that it uses up all its CP in strategems. C'est la vie.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/16 16:26:12
rvd1ofakind wrote: Here's the damage comparison:
1) Shooty priests
2) shooty priests + they make the charge
3) Dakkastelans in protocol with Cawl
I mean, either I made a mistake in math or this is pretty broken
I assume T is toughness of target and W is wounds of target... why does the Strength of the target matter though? and why the I5 in the middle there? Unless S is shots, but that still doesn't work... Just a bit confused what this is meant to represent.
Not sure why you think this is wrong though.
Row 1 - Priests shooting is better than or similar to kastellan shooting
Row 2 - Priests that manage to shoot and make a charge in one turn do the most damage
This seems exactly right?
Kastellans will survive longer, and can put out their shots turn after turn without any issue because of the long range.
Priests need to burn CP in order to do any shooting or attacking in the first couple turns of the game (deepstriking), and can easily fail their charge (unless they burn even more CP) leaving them exposed to being pretty easily killed off causing no wounds at all. And if they do manage to kill the unit you first point them at, they may well then be out of range for another turn before they move somewhere where they can shoot again.
So, Dakkastelans do constant reliable damage for all 6 turns of a game. Priests are capable of doing more damage, but likely only for 2 or 3 turns of a game, and thats only if they survive. Classic glass cannons.
You also haven't put points costs into the equation, which is the most important thing.
2017/09/16 16:48:33
Subject: Tactica Mechanicus 2.0 - Deus Est Machina! - Sound The Drum, Agripinaa has Come
My suspicion is that Electro-Priests, as always, seem more powerful on paper than in practice. Deep strike helps, but busting in on a Rhino would be more reliable.
Has anyone confirmed the Vanguard/Ranger prices? Winters said Vanguard are 8, but the rumor was that they were 9? What?
I still think Agripinaa Kataphron recycling is the dark horse strategy. It's pretty tough to do 18 wounds in a single turn at the ranges we're talking about (36" + 5" move), even if it is T5 4+ 6++.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/16 16:49:31
2017/09/16 16:48:57
Subject: Tactica Mechanicus 2.0 - Deus Est Machina! - Sound The Drum, Agripinaa has Come
Suzuteo wrote: My suspicion is that Electro-Priests, as always, seem more powerful on paper than in practice. Deep strike helps, but busting in on a Rhino would be more reliable.
Has anyone confirmed the Vanguard/Ranger prices? Winters said Vanguard are 8, but the rumor was that they were 9? What?
I still think Agripinaa Kataphron recycling is the dark horse strategy. It's pretty tough to do 18 wounds in a single turn at the ranges we're talking about (36" + 5" move), even if it is T5 4+ 6++.
T5 is hard to do a lot of wounds too that quickly. you need something like lascannons to do it. or autocannons. long range anti tank weapons. of course if the opponent is playing admech he can just point the dakkastelans and point click erase pretty much. or a lucky onager blast.
And this is damage divided by points. So yes, no buff priests are more than twice better than Dakkastelans with Prot and Cawl against hordes
Ahh, save and invulnerable, that makes sense (though a key might have been handy, S and I are still strength and initiative to old players like me lmao)
Also saying it's damage by points as the result would have been handy to start with, as I had assumed it was just the standard "number of dead models". If it's wounds inflicted, then there was no need to have the wounds characteristic of the target on there, as this test has no multi-damage weapons.
Anyway though, still looks right to me. Consistent and reliable damage, vs big damage big risk.
Edit: Consistent and reliable long ranged damage, vs big damage big risk at short range. The ranges matter, as long ranged killiness is generally almost always better. Especially as you would also get the bonus of enemies having -1 to his the robots, while the priests will just be big fat targets.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/16 16:57:28
2017/09/16 16:56:08
Subject: Tactica Mechanicus 2.0 - Deus Est Machina! - Sound The Drum, Agripinaa has Come
Well yeah, this is a big spreadsheet, so wounds matter with other units like Onagers
Why I want to try priests: deepstrike + shooting = not that risky.(There are plenty of peopl saying deepstrike + charge which is 10 times more risky). And the damage output is INSANE. I think at least 1 drop of them is worth it. I'll try to go full reta--I mean servitor with them and bring 3 to my test game.
And again, you can plonk them down whenever you want (within the 3 turn limit)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Suzuteo wrote: My suspicion is that Electro-Priests, as always, seem more powerful on paper than in practice. Deep strike helps, but busting in on a Rhino would be more reliable.
Has anyone confirmed the Vanguard/Ranger prices? Winters said Vanguard are 8, but the rumor was that they were 9? What?
I still think Agripinaa Kataphron recycling is the dark horse strategy. It's pretty tough to do 18 wounds in a single turn at the ranges we're talking about (36" + 5" move), even if it is T5 4+ 6++.
Vanguard 9
Rangers 8
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/09/16 16:59:17
rvd1ofakind wrote: Well yeah, this is a big spreadsheet, so wounds matter with other units like Onagers
Why I want to try priests: deepstrike + shooting = not that risky. And the damage output is INSANE. I think at least 1 drop of them is worth it. I'll try to go full reta--I mean servitor with them and bring 3 to my test game.
Oh I agree, it's a powerful tactic, I'm not saying it's not. But I just meant it's not "broken" compared to dakkabots like you seemed to say. Other armies have similar options, where they can throw out a huge alpha strike unit to do a bunch of damage, in the knowledge that it'll likely die next turn. The admech codex is looking pretty balanced to be honest, lots of nice options (relative to the limited model line, that is).
If GW released some new models for it, or FW cyraxis comes out, then AdMech will be in a very good place as far as running fun and varied armies.
2017/09/16 17:37:35
Subject: Tactica Mechanicus 2.0 - Deus Est Machina! - Sound The Drum, Agripinaa has Come
Its forgeworld, so probably. Depends on the tournament, some of them put in various restrictions, but as far as I recall most of the official tournaments count FW as standard units these days.
2017/09/16 18:13:53
Subject: Tactica Mechanicus 2.0 - Deus Est Machina! - Sound The Drum, Agripinaa has Come
Suzuteo wrote: My suspicion is that Electro-Priests, as always, seem more powerful on paper than in practice. Deep strike helps, but busting in on a Rhino would be more reliable.
Has anyone confirmed the Vanguard/Ranger prices? Winters said Vanguard are 8, but the rumor was that they were 9? What?
I still think Agripinaa Kataphron recycling is the dark horse strategy. It's pretty tough to do 18 wounds in a single turn at the ranges we're talking about (36" + 5" move), even if it is T5 4+ 6++.
I think the recycling of Karaphron's is extremely army build dependant though.
If you run them as the 6 man squad, you are having to spend 3 CP to bring them back due to them then being PL 20. Most lists i've seen so far here seem to be aiming more towards 6 robots and Cawl for a massive 910/2000 points. As such, i think you'd be very lucky to have the 3 CP spare to revive them. (as base, the 6 man unit is 420 points.)
Everything seems to be in the "dakkabot" basket. If they get hit hard from deep-strike there doesn't seem to be a great deal left to win the game. Most armies can work around a failed alpha strike, but, i'm not sure this setup would - especially if there is a good deep strike beta force. Terrain could also screw over the robots, if you uses the stratagem to change protocols.
2017/09/16 18:30:02
Subject: Tactica Mechanicus 2.0 - Deus Est Machina! - Sound The Drum, Agripinaa has Come
Honestly I plan to do Lucius because Deep Strike potential makes Skitarii much better for how I wish to use them on top of the minor increase in durability. Use Rangers with Arqs and Dragoons to screen my Onagers and strike Vanguard in with Plasma. Similar to how I wanted in 7th but power creep and all that.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2017/09/16 19:39:30
Subject: Tactica Mechanicus 2.0 - Deus Est Machina! - Sound The Drum, Agripinaa has Come
Niiru I was thinking of wargame exclusive but it appears those were unique Kastelan heads not knight specific.
What about with Stygies what would you "deepstrike" or really advanced deploy to hold the board for a couple turns while the rest of your army was able to move up. The issue with moving up is of course they can then deep strike in behind you once there is enough space unless you literally bubble around your whole army
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/16 19:41:35
2017/09/16 20:16:33
Subject: Tactica Mechanicus 2.0 - Deus Est Machina! - Sound The Drum, Agripinaa has Come
Jaynen wrote: Niiru I was thinking of wargame exclusive but it appears those were unique Kastelan heads not knight specific.
What about with Stygies what would you "deepstrike" or really advanced deploy to hold the board for a couple turns while the rest of your army was able to move up. The issue with moving up is of course they can then deep strike in behind you once there is enough space unless you literally bubble around your whole army
Ahh yeh I know those heads, but they sit on top of a model, I needed one that goes in front of the neck... if that makes sense lol. But I found someone to give me the sizes, and it seems promising that it will fit.
2017/09/16 20:59:46
Subject: Tactica Mechanicus 2.0 - Deus Est Machina! - Codex Imminent
I think the recycling of Karaphron's is extremely army build dependant though.
If you run them as the 6 man squad, you are having to spend 3 CP to bring them back due to them then being PL 20. Most lists i've seen so far here seem to be aiming more towards 6 robots and Cawl for a massive 910/2000 points. As such, i think you'd be very lucky to have the 3 CP spare to revive them. (as base, the 6 man unit is 420 points.)
Everything seems to be in the "dakkabot" basket. If they get hit hard from deep-strike there doesn't seem to be a great deal left to win the game. Most armies can work around a failed alpha strike, but, i'm not sure this setup would - especially if there is a good deep strike beta force. Terrain could also screw over the robots, if you uses the stratagem to change protocols.
The bigger the unit is, the more viable the strategy is.
And yes, you wouldn't be able to do the Kastelan strategy as well as Mars. I posted a list a few pages back. I think it only had two. If any metaphor is apt though, consider the Destroyers to be like multiple Scion command squads, with Culverins and Grav instead of Plasma Guns and Meltas.
I still think 6 Kastelans is too much, though it is true that the alpha strike is tempting. I definitely think dropping the Datasmith in favor of just committing to rooting your Kastelans in a good spot is a good idea though. 36" is a lot of range. The only stuff that outranges you won't be able to out-trade Crawlers.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/09/16 21:16:01
4321/10/16 21:40:51
Subject: Tactica Mechanicus 2.0 - Deus Est Machina! - Codex Imminent
I think the recycling of Karaphron's is extremely army build dependant though.
If you run them as the 6 man squad, you are having to spend 3 CP to bring them back due to them then being PL 20. Most lists i've seen so far here seem to be aiming more towards 6 robots and Cawl for a massive 910/2000 points. As such, i think you'd be very lucky to have the 3 CP spare to revive them. (as base, the 6 man unit is 420 points.)
Everything seems to be in the "dakkabot" basket. If they get hit hard from deep-strike there doesn't seem to be a great deal left to win the game. Most armies can work around a failed alpha strike, but, i'm not sure this setup would - especially if there is a good deep strike beta force. Terrain could also screw over the robots, if you uses the stratagem to change protocols.
The bigger the unit is, the more viable the strategy is.
And yes, you wouldn't be able to do the Kastelan strategy as well as Mars. I posted a list a few pages back. I think it only had two. If any metaphor is apt though, consider the Destroyers to be like multiple Scion command squads, with Culverins and Grav instead of Plasma Guns and Meltas.
I still think 6 Kastelans is too much, though it is true that the alpha strike is tempting. I definitely think dropping the Datasmith in favor of just committing to rooting your Kastelans in a good spot is a good idea though. 36" is a lot of range. The only stuff that outranges you won't be able to out-trade Crawlers.
I was just looking for the height and the width of the head/faceplate, preferably in mm
2017/09/16 23:06:18
Subject: Tactica Mechanicus 2.0 - Deus Est Machina! - Codex Imminent
I was just looking for the height and the width of the head/faceplate, preferably in mm
The face plates (the helmet-looking things) are a hair over 1/2 inch at its widest point and the longest of them is 5/6s of an inch long.
The Mechanicum Knight head I posted is significantly larger (because it replaces the "hood" of the Imperial Knight as well). 3/4 inch at its widest points and 1 and 1/8 inches long. It is joined to the body at the back by a circular area framed by a 3/8 inch square.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/16 23:08:05
2017/09/16 23:24:23
Subject: Tactica Mechanicus 2.0 - Deus Est Machina! - Sound The Drum, Agripinaa has Come
Has anyone confirmed the Vanguard/Ranger prices? Winters said Vanguard are 8, but the rumor was that they were 9? What?
Winters didn't get much right in his review except when he was just reading directly from the codex.
I'm looking at the page right now, and Vanguard are 9, Rangers are 8.
( I had included a blurry screenshot of the points page, but I'm learning that I shouldn't post it here! Do be aware if you pause the winters video at the correct time, you can see all the points except for melee weapons )
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/16 23:27:12
2017/09/16 23:30:18
Subject: Tactica Mechanicus 2.0 - Deus Est Machina! - Codex Imminent
Suzuteo wrote: Okay. And what is the Heavy Arc Rifle cost? I heard Breachers got another attack too?
Heavy Arc Rifle is now 8 pts (whether thats on purpose, or they forgot the "1" in the number "18" we'll never know).
Cognis Heavy Stubbers appear to be 5 pts now (down from 8), but that's the one entry that always seems to have a glare or fuzzy on the video, and 5's look a lot like 8s.
2017/09/17 00:02:19
Subject: Re:Tactica Mechanicus 2.0 - Deus Est Machina! - Codex Imminent
I was just looking for the height and the width of the head/faceplate, preferably in mm
The face plates (the helmet-looking things) are a hair over 1/2 inch at its widest point and the longest of them is 5/6s of an inch long.
The Mechanicum Knight head I posted is significantly larger (because it replaces the "hood" of the Imperial Knight as well). 3/4 inch at its widest points and 1 and 1/8 inches long. It is joined to the body at the back by a circular area framed by a 3/8 inch square.
Ok cool, I think that should be fine then, I may grab one of the FW heads and give it a go, it might be a *little* big but that might actually look cool. Thanks!
5250 pts
3850 pts
2500 pts