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6017/09/17 23:49:43
Subject: Tactica Mechanicus 2.0 - Deus Est Machina! - Codex Imminent
That is like expecting our Datasmith or Enginseers to do damage.
yes yes i do. Datasmiths at least have a power fist. but the damage output on them does not warrant taking them any more, it barely did when we didn't have the strategem to switch protocols. Primarily i used them to get into CC if my robots were targetted and they usually made up their points then. now however I'll probably have the tech priest fill that role.
Uhhh... you are aware that in terms of math, healing a wound on a high durability unit is just as important as dealing one to a unit of comparable durability? And AdMech has some of the most durable vehicles in the game.
Yes they can do both. they are capable of that.
And Dragoons aren't capable of killing something with 3x S8 AP-1 2D attacks? They just got a huge buff. They're dealing 50% more wounds to Razorbacks (T7 3+) than before. A unit of 4 can actually kill one within two turns now...
also HEALING a wound is NOT as important as dealing one. if both armies just heal everything the game never ends. it ends via something dying. This is why in Magic the gathering life GAIN is not costed as high as dealing damage. the game ends when someone dies. there is no upper cap on life points. the same is true here. you win by removing the enemy from the table or objectives.
TCGs are different. Healing is priced lower because it takes into account the opportunity cost; healing does not alter the board state like dealing damage to a creature will. Warhammer 40k is a complete cost game. Everything is paid BEFORE you start the game.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/17 23:53:55
2017/09/18 00:26:47
Subject: Tactica Mechanicus 2.0 - Deus Est Machina! - Codex Imminent
but we've had this discussion. you are entitled to your opinion and i mine. I will not under any circumstances use a unit that does nothing but set up a barrier. that's wasted points.
Frankly, this is a foolish position to take. They are meant to be a roadblock, that is their exact job. Damage output is not vital, even though they have respectable output, honestly. I have had them wipe small units many times, because the 2 dmg and ease of wounding most infantry is solid and the -1 AP just makes it better. What do you expect for 70pt, honestly? T6 6W with good mobility and tough to hit with a big base to deny areas or grab objectives.
I just can't wrap my mind around what you seem to expect from a unit whose goal is to be mobile, tough to shift, and able to grab objectives. Dragoons are just tailor-made for this task and excel at it. Cheaply, no less, because 68pt is not a lot.
Jaynen wrote: My biggest issue with the Dragoons is the cost one, since I think they are like what 40 bucks for a single model?
Thats half another start collecting box with an onager and 10 vanguard/rangers, or close to another box set of kastelans with the cybertech dude
Maybe its dumb to have to think of my army in terms of dollars and cents effectiveness and not just points
The cost is another major Issue. But people are entitled to their oppinions. if they work for them or they just want to keep losing that's on them, whatever. Mean while i'll be over here with my grey knight/Mechanicus list clearing ravenwing/deathguard armies off the table like I have since the index came out.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/18 01:18:06
Jaynen wrote: My biggest issue with the Dragoons is the cost one, since I think they are like what 40 bucks for a single model?
Thats half another start collecting box with an onager and 10 vanguard/rangers, or close to another box set of kastelans with the cybertech dude
Maybe its dumb to have to think of my army in terms of dollars and cents effectiveness and not just points
The cost is another major Issue. But people are entitled to their oppinions. if they work for them or they just want to keep losing that's on them, whatever. Mean while i'll be over here with my grey knight/Mechanicus list clearing ravenwing/deathguard armies off the table like I have since the index came out.
Bruh, insinuating I lose with Dragoons is hilarious, when I have won most of my games and clinched a few with Dragoons. Now I remember why I had you on ignore.
Jaynen wrote: My biggest issue with the Dragoons is the cost one, since I think they are like what 40 bucks for a single model?
Thats half another start collecting box with an onager and 10 vanguard/rangers, or close to another box set of kastelans with the cybertech dude
Maybe its dumb to have to think of my army in terms of dollars and cents effectiveness and not just points
The cost is another major Issue. But people are entitled to their oppinions. if they work for them or they just want to keep losing that's on them, whatever. Mean while i'll be over here with my grey knight/Mechanicus list clearing ravenwing/deathguard armies off the table like I have since the index came out.
Bruh, insinuating I lose with Dragoons is hilarious, when I have won most of my games and clinched a few with Dragoons. Now I remember why I had you on ignore.
like i said if it works for you cool. If not cool. What i'm doing works for me. you're entitled to your opinion and I mine.
Jaynen wrote: My biggest issue with the Dragoons is the cost one, since I think they are like what 40 bucks for a single model?
Thats half another start collecting box with an onager and 10 vanguard/rangers, or close to another box set of kastelans with the cybertech dude
Maybe its dumb to have to think of my army in terms of dollars and cents effectiveness and not just points
The cost is another major Issue. But people are entitled to their oppinions. if they work for them or they just want to keep losing that's on them, whatever. Mean while i'll be over here with my grey knight/Mechanicus list clearing ravenwing/deathguard armies off the table like I have since the index came out.
Bruh, insinuating I lose with Dragoons is hilarious, when I have won most of my games and clinched a few with Dragoons. Now I remember why I had you on ignore.
like i said if it works for you cool. If not cool. What i'm doing works for me. you're entitled to your opinion and I mine.
also likewise.
The issue is that my stance isn't so much an opinion as an evaluation based on use. Sure, it is still anecdotal, but it isn't unfounded because I have the games in to back up the claim. And not against low-tier junk like Ravenwing, but against a lot of nasty match-ups for us, like Orks and Imperial Guard.
So when folks come here and see you say "Naw, they suck", they might dismiss them out-of-hand if they don't see my thoughts on them. Hence me combating your claim every time, because they are a lynchpin screening unit that folks definitely shouldn't overlook. Especially now with Stygies -1 to-hit and the AP -1 additions.
The cost is another major Issue. But people are entitled to their oppinions. if they work for them or they just want to keep losing that's on them, whatever. Mean while i'll be over here with my grey knight/Mechanicus list clearing ravenwing/deathguard armies off the table like I have since the index came out.
We are highly, highly favored in the Ravenwing and Deathguard matchups; Icarus Crawlers absolutely shred the former, and we have better shooting and durability than the latter. The real armies that threaten us are Chaos, Orks, and Guard, maybe Ynnari/Harlequins and Genestealers. Pretty much any assault army. >_>
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/18 02:53:30
2017/09/18 03:06:46
Subject: Tactica Mechanicus 2.0 - Deus Est Machina! - Codex Imminent
The cost is another major Issue. But people are entitled to their oppinions. if they work for them or they just want to keep losing that's on them, whatever. Mean while i'll be over here with my grey knight/Mechanicus list clearing ravenwing/deathguard armies off the table like I have since the index came out.
We are highly, highly favored in the Ravenwing and Deathguard matchups; Icarus Crawlers absolutely shred the former, and we have better shooting and durability than the latter. The real armies that threaten us are Chaos, Orks, and Guard, maybe Ynnari/Harlequins and Genestealers. Pretty much any assault army. >_>
That is my local metagame. Plus assaulty Wolves and some Dark Eldar spamming Lances which is actually an awful matchup for us (pre-Codex at least). For some reason my area is highly competitive.
That is my local metagame. Plus assaulty Wolves and some Dark Eldar spamming Lances which is actually an awful matchup for us (pre-Codex at least). For some reason my area is highly competitive.
Wolves are surprisingly not too bad. And I think we're favored slightly in the Dark Eldar matchup due to Icarus Crawlers (Venoms and Raiders have tissue paper for armor), but then again, I have always advocated doing 1:1 Neutron:Icarus.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/09/18 03:14:06
2017/09/18 03:29:58
Subject: Tactica Mechanicus 2.0 - Deus Est Machina! - Codex Imminent
rvd1ofakind wrote: BTW, 6 Dragoons with stratagem do similar per point damage to Duoble DakKastelans with Cawl :/
Juuuuuuuuuuuust saying
Oh when you have the omniscient mask they do a lot better than Kastelans
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wow, an AdMech player won a GT:
Cawl
5 dakkastelans 4 Neutron Onagers
40+ conscripts
a ton of plasma scions
Are we talking 6 Kastelans? Because while I get that +2 to hit stratagem is solid if you need to kill something, since Taser explodes on a 4+, I am not so sure it deals quite that much damage. Furthermore, I am not convinced you want that many Dragoons stacked together due to piling-in issues.
Good to know all the theory crafting worked out for someone. Though I am surprised it was 4 Neutron and not 2 Neutron and 2 Icarus. Might be hard to table some horde armies with only 5 Kastelans and infantry; plasma is already fine for vehicles.
2017/09/18 04:58:39
Subject: Tactica Mechanicus 2.0 - Deus Est Machina! - Codex Imminent
LOL I was just making a scions + cawl list. Alright, lets up the cheese. Alright, this what I think he did. This is assuming 5 point cognis stubbers based on the leaks. Only 7CP, so that is just enough for 3 turns of Mars Wrath. I am actually not convinced on the goodness of the neutron onager because I keep rolling 1 shot a turn.
rvd1ofakind wrote: BTW, 6 Dragoons with stratagem do similar per point damage to Duoble DakKastelans with Cawl :/
Juuuuuuuuuuuust saying
Oh when you have the omniscient mask they do a lot better than Kastelans
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wow, an AdMech player won a GT:
Cawl
5 dakkastelans 4 Neutron Onagers
40+ conscripts
a ton of plasma scions
Are we talking 6 Kastelans? Because while I get that +2 to hit stratagem is solid if you need to kill something, since Taser explodes on a 4+, I am not so sure it deals quite that much damage. Furthermore, I am not convinced you want that many Dragoons stacked together due to piling-in issues.
Good to know all the theory crafting worked out for someone. Though I am surprised it was 4 Neutron and not 2 Neutron and 2 Icarus. Might be hard to table some horde armies with only 5 Kastelans and infantry; plasma is already fine for vehicles.
There's 0 point in comparing 6 dragoons to 6 DakKastelans. I'm comparing the points per damage dealt. Ant 6 stratagem dragoons are 0.09, and Protector Cawl DakKastelans are 0.10 Which is not that big of a difference.
Also, there are no piling in issues as it's really easy to be within 1'' of a dragoon, that is within 1'' of the enemy due to the giant base.
There's 0 point in comparing 6 dragoons to 6 DakKastelans. I'm comparing the points per damage dealt. Ant 6 stratagem dragoons are 0.09, and Protector Cawl DakKastelans are 0.10 Which is not that big of a difference.
Also, there are no piling in issues as it's really easy to be within 1'' of a dragoon, that is within 1'' of the enemy due to the giant base.
I see. That's interesting.
There are potential piling in issues once you pass 2 Dragoons. You pretty much have to pile in so that all of the Dragoons are within 1" of the lead Dragoon, but 3" doesn't let you clear a Dragoon's length. This results in problems when you are charge from an "in line" formation.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here, let me explain with a diagram:
The ideal position for Dragoons to maximize their frontal coverage is "in line." That is, arranging all of the models so that they are 2" apart and in a straight line. You can stagger the middle Dragoon for more depth, of course, but this will not affect the point I am trying to make.
The first arrows represent a 7" move; this is the more liberal case, with the front Dragoon moving 6" and the rearmost Dragoon moving the full 7". These lines are to scale. The middle Dragoon needs to move diagonally to get out of the rear Dragoon's way.
The second arrows represent the 3" pile-in. Note that the rear Dragoon also has to pile-in within 2" of the middle Dragoon; this is what determined the angle of the previous move.
The crux of the matter is this: Net of the entire unit's charge, the rearmost Dragoon needs to move 3" + 105mm to get close enough to the lead Dragoon to be able to attack. He can only move 4", leaving 105mm -1" of dead space.
Therefore, running three Dragoons creates a tradeoff:
1) Reduce coverage and adopt an "arrowhead" formation. (In terms of coverage, the arrowhead is little different than just having two Dragoons in line.)
2) Maximize coverage and risk being outmaneuevered; any unit that "crosses the T" (in naval parlance) will essentially freeze one Dragoon out of the charge.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/09/18 06:58:59
2017/09/18 07:18:56
Subject: Tactica Mechanicus 2.0 - Deus Est Machina! - Codex Imminent
Well if you run multiple Dragoons, you run them not in a line to avoid that. Ofc it is more restricting than running them separatelly but you just have to play differently
PS: 5 hours until I see if the Corps priests are all they're cracked up to be in Mathammer
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/09/18 07:47:13
Spera wrote: I'm gonna have 3000pt mach in two days against Death Guard. I'm reading their codex right now (and believe me or not, half hour more of this and I'll be biggest salt producer in this planet) and wonder how to deal with few things.
So far I'm most afraid of Plagueburst crawler.
BS4+ T8 W12 3+/5++/5+++
12-48" HD6 s8 ap-2 d3 rerol 1 to wound and can fire at targets that are not visible
36" H4 s5 ap-1 d1
9"flamer s user(7) ap-1 D1
all that costs 149pts. 149PTS!!!
i assume my oponen will hide it so i won't be able to school it with onagers. Only 20fulgurites comes to my mind. Any ideas how to deal with those monsters?
What's your overall game plan, stand and shoot him down? If it hides, then it is a somewhat expensive Earthshaker Platform or Basilisk, ignore it and kill the rest of his army? If it is in the open shoot it with Onagers. If it tries to get close chop it with a Knight's Chainblade?
We gonna test armmies, so I'm gonna bring trusted 6 kastelan, 2 neutronagesr 1 icarus and cawl with two sniper ranger squads. Other than that ill try stuff from other FW to lock him in midfield. Wondering between Graia and Stygies, lucius for sure. I was bit afraid of Plagueburst crawler due to it's sturdiness. Its hard to even cripple it. Game will be probably long so they may add up.
Spera wrote: I'm gonna have 3000pt mach in two days against Death Guard. I'm reading their codex right now (and believe me or not, half hour more of this and I'll be biggest salt producer in this planet) and wonder how to deal with few things.
So far I'm most afraid of Plagueburst crawler.
BS4+ T8 W12 3+/5++/5+++
12-48" HD6 s8 ap-2 d3 rerol 1 to wound and can fire at targets that are not visible
36" H4 s5 ap-1 d1
9"flamer s user(7) ap-1 D1
all that costs 149pts. 149PTS!!!
i assume my oponen will hide it so i won't be able to school it with onagers. Only 20fulgurites comes to my mind. Any ideas how to deal with those monsters?
What do you have to be salty about? You have a 48" Heavy D3 with S10 AP-4 D6Min3 that can move 8" and shoot without penalty. With Shroudpsalm you also get +1 save. Mars gives you rerolls in any situation, and Stygies gives you -1 to hit. You also heal D3+1 wounds per turn. Your friend is probably sitting in his room muttering "all that costs 143 points" under his breath.
But if you want my advice, if he's hiding behind cover, deep strike 1x3 Stygies Ballistarii or 1x2 Dragoons behind him.
I'm salty because it's really easy to see how much more was put into dg codex. If i was able to chose between hawing this codex now, or have to wait for it 2-3 more months but to get it more polished and refined, I would gladly do so. On first sight DG doesn't have to make suboptimal decisions in list building. I hope i'm bias and this is only case of grass being greener on the other side of the fence.
1. „Stab the shoty, shot the staby”
2. „Who bails, fails.”
3. „Act to win yourself and not for your opponent to lose.”
4. „If in dilemma between damage and durability, chose third- speed.”
5. „Focus fire.”
2017/09/18 10:03:05
Subject: Re:Tactica Mechanicus 2.0 - Deus Est Machina! - Codex Imminent
Could someone explain how best to use the Dragoons as a screen? What makes them superior to Skitarii for the purpose?
I've just ordered a pair so some advice on how to arm them and how to run them after they've done their job as first turn screen would be good too, but I'm most interested in learning how to use them to counter deepstriking.
The ideal explanation might be something that could be copied into the OP as a bit of tactical advice. Thanks!
2017/09/18 10:05:06
Subject: Tactica Mechanicus 2.0 - Deus Est Machina! - Codex Imminent
you could always deep strike into their flanks with something heavy hitting. i'd say take a guard detatchment and deep strike some scions into it's side. or maybe lucious or stygies and throw a few balistarii into it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
monarda wrote: Could someone explain how best to use the Dragoons as a screen? What makes them superior to Skitarii for the purpose?
I've just ordered a pair so some advice on how to arm them and how to run them after they've done their job as first turn screen would be good too, but I'm most interested in learning how to use them to counter deepstriking.
The ideal explanation might be something that could be copied into the OP as a bit of tactical advice. Thanks!
-1 to hit and T6 that's all it is. they counter deep strike by simply being a model on the board so won't be as good as skitarii for that purpose. normally armed with taser goads. don' think i've ever hear or seen anyone take the jezzail. MNOP and the rest can tell you more as they actually see use in them. I'm getting a few but i'm building them as autocannon ballistari.
Jaynen wrote: My biggest issue with the Dragoons is the cost one, since I think they are like what 40 bucks for a single model?
Thats half another start collecting box with an onager and 10 vanguard/rangers, or close to another box set of kastelans with the cybertech dude
Maybe its dumb to have to think of my army in terms of dollars and cents effectiveness and not just points
The cost is another major Issue. But people are entitled to their oppinions. if they work for them or they just want to keep losing that's on them, whatever. Mean while i'll be over here with my grey knight/Mechanicus list clearing ravenwing/deathguard armies off the table like I have since the index came out.
Bruh, insinuating I lose with Dragoons is hilarious, when I have won most of my games and clinched a few with Dragoons. Now I remember why I had you on ignore.
like i said if it works for you cool. If not cool. What i'm doing works for me. you're entitled to your opinion and I mine.
also likewise.
The issue is that my stance isn't so much an opinion as an evaluation based on use. Sure, it is still anecdotal, but it isn't unfounded because I have the games in to back up the claim. And not against low-tier junk like Ravenwing, but against a lot of nasty match-ups for us, like Orks and Imperial Guard.
So when folks come here and see you say "Naw, they suck", they might dismiss them out-of-hand if they don't see my thoughts on them. Hence me combating your claim every time, because they are a lynchpin screening unit that folks definitely shouldn't overlook. Especially now with Stygies -1 to-hit and the AP -1 additions.
know what, maybe that's a good thing. Because maybe they'll try something else that'll be better. and if me saying they suck is such a bad thing make a damn good case for them. and just them being a roadblock isn't going to be good enough of an argument for some people. because that argument can be superceded by the use of bunkers. also infantry are much better at deepstrike denial. not every mechanicus player also wants or needs to go pure mechanicus so a guard detatchment isn't out of the question for them. and i think theres a case that guard detatchments are the damn best option to take for screening.
Mostly because guard hoards are winning tournaments right now and we could simply replace the heavy support options they have with our robots and neutronagers. like wulfey's list up there that's an interesting list. it's not just the same old gak that OBVIOUSLY isn't working on the tournament circuit.
so again. you do you boo. i'll do me. if what you do works for you. cool. if not, IDGAF. i'll do what works for me and adapt if it ever stops working.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2017/09/18 10:19:03
monarda wrote: Could someone explain how best to use the Dragoons as a screen? What makes them superior to Skitarii for the purpose?
I've just ordered a pair so some advice on how to arm them and how to run them after they've done their job as first turn screen would be good too, but I'm most interested in learning how to use them to counter deepstriking.
The ideal explanation might be something that could be copied into the OP as a bit of tactical advice. Thanks!
Despite what gendoikari87 says - and what he says is wrong and uninformed - Dragoons are a solid screening unit that does double-duty as an objective grabber.
Right now, with what we have, Stygies Dragoons are a solid go-to for interrupting the opponent's gameplan to deep strike and get into assault with us, which really is our worst-case scenario.
The perks (for Stygies) include:
-2 To-Hit
Toughness 6
6 Wounds
10" Movement
4+ Save (3+ with Shroudpsalm)
S8 AP -1 3A weapon that does 3 hits on 6's
Can hilariously explode and cause mortal wounds
All of this combines to make a durable unit that requires an opponent be within 12" to hurt with shooting (and even then, they are at a -1 to-hit). More likely, they will need to get into combat with something dedicated to combat with lots of high strength weapons (6+) and good AP - alternatively, volume can work though it is tough with hordes to get in as many attacks because you are one model vs a string of models (despite the large base size).
You want to use them as a screen by putting them out in front of your forces and sideways to stretch them out to deny large swathes of the area to deep strikes. Make big no-go areas and force them to go around your Dragoons. If they assault your Dragoons, just leave combat and shoot them with your army next turn. Once their deep strike threat is not an issue and you aren't expecting CC waves to come at you, they can go objective taking or weakling hunting. Surprisingly, they can dish out some hurt to stuff with low toughness and/or low saves. Three attacks isn't much, but it will push Gretchin off the board and open up an objective that you couldn't reach before.
The Skitarii are less flexible, less deadly, and less durable. While Stygies has made them somewhat better, as the -1 to-hit is just always good, they still have these drawbacks:
Toughness 3
1 Wound
Mediocre shooting
Zero CC ability
Low Leadership
This means that they can be hurt more easily in shooting, will suffer for it due to leadership, don't really shoot that well and can't fight worth a crap either. They also won't be going across the table and taking a distant quarter or objective. The whole idea of Blandguard was to make them an in-faction speedbump. They can do this and for filling out a battalion (until the day Kataphrons get a point drop), they are our best troop option. However, the Dragoons clearly outshine Skitarii for screening, objective taking, durability, and their ability to strike weak camping units.
Hopefully that puts to bed gendoikari87's nonsense claims a bit, as the stats (on top of plenty of anecdotal evidence) should make a pretty solid case. Remember, most of us who use them play more than bottom-tier Ravenwing, so we are speaking in broad, normal metagame terms.
That is my local metagame. Plus assaulty Wolves and some Dark Eldar spamming Lances which is actually an awful matchup for us (pre-Codex at least). For some reason my area is highly competitive.
Wolves are surprisingly not too bad. And I think we're favored slightly in the Dark Eldar matchup due to Icarus Crawlers (Venoms and Raiders have tissue paper for armor), but then again, I have always advocated doing 1:1 Neutron:Icarus.
We outgun Wolves pretty well, since they are usually somewhat elite. The issue is their speed getting into combat with stuff like Thunderwolves presents a clear-and-present threat we must mitigate.
Dark Eldar Lance spam only is an issue because of target saturation and volume of high strength, low AP fire that really chews up our vehicles. Thankfully, it is all reliant on their damage dice, because if their dice go cold, they are doing 1's and 2's, not 5's and 6's. That being said, they up the statistics by having ~15 of them on the table, meaning we will lose Robots and Onagers quickly. It isn't a list you will likely see as it suffers in most metagames, but it was one I saw in mine and noted it as something we should keep an eye out for.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/09/18 11:45:37
All of this combines to make a durable unit that requires an opponent be within 12" to hurt with shooting
except it doesn't have a gun and is no threat so might as well ignore it entirely. It grabs an objective? whoopty doo basil it's one model the enemy moves a troop squad with objective secured over there or ignores that one entirely and goes and grabs another. worst case scenario for them is they can't do any of the above and then point a couple lascannons over at it and boom, dragoon gone. but given it has no guns theres really no need to do that.
If they assault your Dragoons, just leave combat and shoot them with your army next turn.
or you know use something that's actually effective in combat and let the big guns focus on other thing.
The Skitarii are less flexible, less deadly, and less durable
less durable i'll give you by a hair but less deadly? for the same points you get 9 str 3 shots at 18 inches and 4 str 7 ap -3 shots. ..... what are you smoking?
All of this combines to make a durable unit that requires an opponent be within 12" to hurt with shooting
except it doesn't have a gun and is no threat so might as well ignore it entirely. It grabs an objective? whoopty doo basil it's one model the enemy moves a troop squad with objective secured over there or ignores that one entirely and goes and grabs another. worst case scenario for them is they can't do any of the above and then point a couple lascannons over at it and boom, dragoon gone. but given it has no guns theres really no need to do that.
If they assault your Dragoons, just leave combat and shoot them with your army next turn.
or you know use something that's actually effective in combat and let the big guns focus on other thing.
The Skitarii are less flexible, less deadly, and less durable
less durable i'll give you by a hair but less deadly? for the same points you get 9 str 3 shots at 18 inches and 4 str 7 ap -3 shots. ..... what are you smoking?
It is like you don't actually play the game. Seriously, your comments are so uninformed.
It doesn't need a gun to do its job. At all. We have guns aplenty in our army anyhow.
You realize that you are taking objectives on T4+ after you have wiped out their scoring units, right? Or at least hindered their mobility so our Dragoons can do what they do.
You seem to be forgetting the -2 to-hit. Lascannons are notoriously low in shots, meaning even Space Marines need 5+ to-hit against it, while Guard will need 6's. They then need to hope they roll 6 damage to kill it outright and that is unlikely (provided they don't miraculously roll a 1 to wound). And we do get a 6++, too.
It is effective in combat - you would know if you played. Tying up units often three times their points and keeping those melee units from closing into our gunline is worth 68pt. Especially given the rest of the perks.
No one takes the S7 guns, bud. Blandguard is the go-to, soon to be bare-bones Rangers. They have mediocre guns. If you start adding in extras, you are creating a point sink in a liability unit. T3 1W models with low leadership go bye-bye very fast. Again, you would know this if you played. In all my games, Skitarii only ever lived if my opponent just ignored them outright. Often, those games they did very, very little and they are pretty awful as a screen because they are so easy to shift. If anything, it makes shifting easier because they will wipe them out and then consolidate closer!
Seriously, play some games (against something other than Ravenwing - go play Guard or Chaos or something competitive) and then get back to us. Your "evidence" is not based on playing, while the rest of us have put in the table time to back up the claims. Your opinion has no weight because of this.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Why wouldn't you give it a Phosphor Serpenta? Sure it isn't much, but it is better than nothing.
because it is on a melee unit that can't shoot it in melee and it costs points?
Since when is 6 pts going to break the bank?
Since the Codex hit. I feel that we have even less points to fudge with now than ever, as we are shoehorning in 2-3 detachments and maximizing what is in each. Plus, it really is a mediocre gun anyhow.
Seriously. Compare the 6 pts Serpenta to the 5 pts stubber. What the crap is this? Stubber is more than 3 times better per point than serpenta (AND I gave Serpenta 1,5 AP to simulate the opponent sometimes being in cover)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/18 14:03:09
5250 pts
3850 pts
2500 pts 