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gendoikari87 wrote:

People are just being salty, but if you're objective and compare us to the CSM and SM codexes, you will see that we got some potent tools. Yes, it is true some of our stuff seems to be useless filler, but there are clearly some competitive choices.

Dude. I just showed you the math a few pages ago. Dragoons and Conscripts are equally durable screens because neither kills the other within 6 turns. The difference is that Dragoons are one large body and can move 10".

the durability isn't the issue, the issue is damage output a conscript squad puts out a lot of shots. base infantry are even better, but heavy on unit choices so you'll be going last if you go that route.

This guy is so hung up on damage potential, entirely forgetting that is not at all a vital aspect of the unit in the context of our army. Even still, three S8 AP -1 attacks with 6's turning into three hits is good for less than 70pt, given its durability and mobility.

Hmm would a Datasmith in a Stygies Detachment be able to change protocol on bots in a Mars detachment?

And i thought the repair aspect was based off the Adeptus Mechanicus keyword, not <Forge World>

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Hmm would a Datasmith in a Stygies Detachment be able to change protocol on bots in a Mars detachment?

And i thought the repair aspect was based off the Adeptus Mechanicus keyword, not <Forge World>

Don't know but there's a strategem for that now.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Hmm would a Datasmith in a Stygies Detachment be able to change protocol on bots in a Mars detachment?

And i thought the repair aspect was based off the Adeptus Mechanicus keyword, not <Forge World>

Unless the wording changes, the Datasmith says "friendly Kastelan Robot" - so FW doesn't seem to matter there.

For Cawl and TPD, again unless they change it, can repair any "friendly Adeptus Mechanicus model". So that is pretty stellar.

The Enginseer is the only one limited with the <FORGE WORLD> stipulation.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Hmm would a Datasmith in a Stygies Detachment be able to change protocol on bots in a Mars detachment?

And i thought the repair aspect was based off the Adeptus Mechanicus keyword, not <Forge World>

Unless the wording changes, the Datasmith says "friendly Kastelan Robot" - so FW doesn't seem to matter there.

For Cawl and TPD, again unless they change it, can repair any "friendly Adeptus Mechanicus model". So that is pretty stellar.

The Enginseer is the only one limited with the <FORGE WORLD> stipulation.

Wasnt sure, never payed attention to the Enginseer rules until now. Not a bad idea to mix/match crawlers between mars and stygies, they dont really need the reroll as much as the bots. Its really just deciding what goes in what forgeworld detachment

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Large squads of Skitarii usually wind up hurting due to their low leadership. That liability is why you see so little actually invested in them. If they were Fearless, I would run them in squads of 10 with Special Weapons, for sure. Especially Stygies, for that sweet -1 to-hit. But at the moment, they are just too easily undone by their own leadership to make it worthwhile, imo. That is why Dragoons were tested and proved to be simply overall better at screening against deep strikes. And you are right, Onagers do long-range antitank better, so I would say go for Dragoons over Ballistarii - especially under Stygies and now with the -1 AP on the Lance, they can do some damage. I think the Autocannons are pretty mediocre and we have plenty of anti-horde with Kastellans.

What about the addition of an enhanced data tether for a reroll? I know them starting at a 6 and only going up to a 7 with the alpha is a little low, but that was why I was running 5 man units of vanguard with a EDT. I found they got blown off the board by a stiff breeze (cough wyvern cough) so I was hoping a 10-man unit would hold up a bit better, though if they start taking 3 casualties a turn and I need to roll under a 4, it'll be a tad dicey, even with a reroll.

Dig the dragoons, I was really down on the models (and if I'm being perfectly honest I really am not a HUGE fan) but with what they can do, I can make it work lol

Dispensing with all fluff and solo admech desires, shouldn't I be using scions and conscripts as my buffer instead of skitarri foot troops? Please don't respond with, 'but fluff, I only run pure admech, you are a bad person for trying to be competitive, balances whines are more important than trying to win'. I am talking COMPETITIVE. If I am going to a GT or a 3 game tourney day, I want to win. I want to bring the strongest list even if I have emotional attachments to certain plastic figures. Compare these two battalions as side pieces to a Cawl/Dakkastelon/Onager spearhead [this spearhead is officially the meta].

Lucius Battalion (~530 points):
2x Enginseer ~110 points for both
3x Blinged Plasma Vanguard squads (~140 points a piece for max damage per CP spent deepstriking them)

AM Scions Battalion (~ 350 points):
1x Temp prime (40)
1x Commander (30)
1x Commisar (30)
1x Scion plasma command (64 points)
1x Scion plasma troop (66)
2x20 conscripts (60 each)

The Lucius battallion feels strictly worse, even though I have the models for it and think it would be kind of fun. The Lucius battalion eats all of its CP to deepstrike and provides no screen. The Lucius battalion delivers 18 plasma shots at 18" versus the scions putting 13 plasma shots at 12". But I can't afford to risk putting the Lucius guys on the table because they will get cleaned off. Whereas the AM battalion lets me keep the CP and gives me guys to stand in the way to absorb the magnus charge // smite spam // deepstrike doom. Even further, the Lucius battallion has enginseers which manage to provide zero buffs to any units and can't repair outside of their <forgeworld>. The AM battalion brings its reroll to 1s orders along with it, and can even give orders to the conscripts if they survive past turn 1.

EDIT: I think there may be something to use Stygies skitarii rangers as screen. They have -1 to be hit and are only 8 points. That makes them not quite as durable as conscripts per point, but like almost getting there. The result if you manage to get some 3+ to hit riflemen on the board with a much smaller footprint than the conscripts, but this keeps the fluff going sort of. On the other hand, this feels like the worst of both worlds. The Stygies screen line won't cover as much as the conscripts, and won't have the plasma deepstrike firepower of the Lucius battalion.

Competitive wise I dont see the point of using AdMech then. Just kidding. Plasma drop with vanguard is not as good as with scions. Period. If you want to go down that route then go scions.

Iago40k wrote:
Competitive wise I dont see the point of using AdMech then. Just kidding. Plasma drop with vanguard is not as good as with scions. Period. If you want to go down that route then go scions.

I think the Cawl/Dakkastellons/Onager spearhead is full blown competitive. If you feed it CP, it cleans things off the board with volleys of mortal wounds. The big weakness back in the index days was things with invul saves (like magnus). Now Cawl/Mars can blow magnus off the table. I would put the Cawl spearhead up there with an RG backed devastator gunline in terms of firepower. The question is what to bring with the Cawl spearhead to maximize its effectiveness.

Wulfey wrote:

Iago40k wrote:
Competitive wise I dont see the point of using AdMech then. Just kidding. Plasma drop with vanguard is not as good as with scions. Period. If you want to go down that route then go scions.

I think the Cawl/Dakkastellons/Onager spearhead is full blown competitive. If you feed it CP, it cleans things off the board with volleys of mortal wounds. The big weakness back in the index days was things with invul saves (like magnus). Now Cawl/Mars can blow magnus off the table. I would put the Cawl spearhead up there with an RG backed devastator gunline in terms of firepower. The question is what to bring with the Cawl spearhead to maximize its effectiveness.

I'm gonna try Deathwing Knights! But Conscripts and/or Scions would probably be better.

I just watched Battle on BoLS twich. There was ad mech vs Death Guard. Ad mech had two units of 6 dragoons. They did most damage of everything. Yeah, that was 86 pl armies, no Dakastelans, one icarus onager, and three Vanguard squads.
Not our standard army, but they obliterated poxwalkers and plague marines. The +2 stratagem gives them much needed punch. Even without one they destroyed predator.
I know that is not very representative data, but they got my attention.

a big unit of dragoons using that 2+ strategem with exploding sixs is about the only way i'd use them.But it would have to be a build based solely around them and a lot of CP.

I don't think anyone is really debating how effective our gunline is. It's more about what is best to support that gunline when it comes to scoring points/objectives and letting it do its job.

I'm still not sure what the sweetspot is for dakkastellans and onager types in the Cawl spearhead contrary to how some people feel about the neutrons I tend to have more success with them than the icarus, and I largely feel the icarus fills a similar role as the dakkastellans.

Overcharged plasma scions are just pretty much impossible to beat on points effectiveness as deepstrike weapons given you are within rapid fire range on their weapons at str 8 ap -2 and 2 damage

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:

People are just being salty, but if you're objective and compare us to the CSM and SM codexes, you will see that we got some potent tools. Yes, it is true some of our stuff seems to be useless filler, but there are clearly some competitive choices.

Dude. I just showed you the math a few pages ago. Dragoons and Conscripts are equally durable screens because neither kills the other within 6 turns. The difference is that Dragoons are one large body and can move 10".

the durability isn't the issue, the issue is damage output a conscript squad puts out a lot of shots. base infantry are even better, but heavy on unit choices so you'll be going last if you go that route.

This guy is so hung up on damage potential, entirely forgetting that is not at all a vital aspect of the unit in the context of our army. Even still, three S8 AP -1 attacks with 6's turning into three hits is good for less than 70pt, given its durability and mobility.

But... it makes no sense. Conscripts do even less damage. Except maybe to other Conscripts.

Wulfey wrote:
Dispensing with all fluff and solo admech desires, shouldn't I be using scions and conscripts as my buffer instead of skitarri foot troops? Please don't respond with, 'but fluff, I only run pure admech, you are a bad person for trying to be competitive, balances whines are more important than trying to win'. I am talking COMPETITIVE. If I am going to a GT or a 3 game tourney day, I want to win. I want to bring the strongest list even if I have emotional attachments to certain plastic figures. Compare these two battalions as side pieces to a Cawl/Dakkastelon/Onager spearhead [this spearhead is officially the meta].

Spoiler:

Lucius Battalion (~530 points):
2x Enginseer ~110 points for both
3x Blinged Plasma Vanguard squads (~140 points a piece for max damage per CP spent deepstriking them)

AM Scions Battalion (~ 350 points):
1x Temp prime (40)
1x Commander (30)
1x Commisar (30)
1x Scion plasma command (64 points)
1x Scion plasma troop (66)
2x20 conscripts (60 each)

The Lucius battallion feels strictly worse, even though I have the models for it and think it would be kind of fun. The Lucius battalion eats all of its CP to deepstrike and provides no screen. The Lucius battalion delivers 18 plasma shots at 18" versus the scions putting 13 plasma shots at 12". But I can't afford to risk putting the Lucius guys on the table because they will get cleaned off. Whereas the AM battalion lets me keep the CP and gives me guys to stand in the way to absorb the magnus charge // smite spam // deepstrike doom. Even further, the Lucius battallion has enginseers which manage to provide zero buffs to any units and can't repair outside of their <forgeworld>. The AM battalion brings its reroll to 1s orders along with it, and can even give orders to the conscripts if they survive past turn 1.

EDIT: I think there may be something to use Stygies skitarii rangers as screen. They have -1 to be hit and are only 8 points. That makes them not quite as durable as conscripts per point, but like almost getting there. The result if you manage to get some 3+ to hit riflemen on the board with a much smaller footprint than the conscripts, but this keeps the fluff going sort of. On the other hand, this feels like the worst of both worlds. The Stygies screen line won't cover as much as the conscripts, and won't have the plasma deepstrike firepower of the Lucius battalion.

I don't think Conscripts are as good for us any more. This is because the cost of taking a separate Guard Battalion (248 points) is higher than just adding one Enginseer and three Ranger units (172 points) to one of our usual detachments; as long as we have a vehicle for each Enginseer, they won't be dead points. These freed up 76 points are another Dragoon or Autocannon Ballistarii. (In short, the cheap HQ option has changed things.)

A Scion Battalion, on the other hand, is interesting. It's a deep strike option that can complement a Stygies Dragoon unit or a Lucius Electro-Priest unit.

Stygies is better than Lucius in most regards. The only time you would take Lucius is to drop fragile shooting units immediately in range of the enemy, but I agree that it is very risky.

Jaynen wrote:
I don't think anyone is really debating how effective our gunline is. It's more about what is best to support that gunline when it comes to scoring points/objectives and letting it do its job.

I'm still not sure what the sweetspot is for dakkastellans and onager types in the Cawl spearhead contrary to how some people feel about the neutrons I tend to have more success with them than the icarus, and I largely feel the icarus fills a similar role as the dakkastellans.

Overcharged plasma scions are just pretty much impossible to beat on points effectiveness as deepstrike weapons given you are within rapid fire range on their weapons at str 8 ap -2 and 2 damage

Agreed. The fact that we have such a fantastic gunline is actually why it's important to protect it.

I think the consensus is one unit of 3-6 Kastelans in a Mars detachment.

I prefer 1:1 Neutron to Icarus, favoring Neutron in odd-numbers. Neutron is amazing against anything bigger than an MEQ, but we're in a meta where GEQs and Boyz are the primary danger. The Icarus is like a Neutron against flying transports, which is the one thing we can't really stop with Dragoons; we have to shoot them down. Icarus also easily outperforms Neutron for MEQs and below with its volume of fire. However, if you are bringing 5-6 Kastelans, you probably want fewer Icarus.

I would really caution against fully investing in conscripts, I'm sure GW has an eye on them with a nerf bat target on their backs as they're dominating every meta.

But yes, if you want the most effective screen for kastellans/cawl/crawlers, conscript blobs are it

Random question, I know everyone is going "detachment X Mars + Detachment Y Stygies" but would different Forge Worlds even work together at all? The AdMech isn't exactly known for sharing, even among themselves. Maybe im wrong and they still all defer to Mars, but I would have a feeling they would all work together to get an STC and try to kill each other on the way instead of well orchestrated teamwork like our lists are proposing.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
I would really caution against fully investing in conscripts, I'm sure GW has an eye on them with a nerf bat target on their backs as they're dominating every meta.

But yes, if you want the most effective screen for kastellans/cawl/crawlers, conscript blobs are it

I hope they do a fun debuff. Like this:

Get Fragged: Each time you make a roll of 1 in a Morale test, remove a friendly Commissar within 6".

I made my conscript blobs out of spare mantic zombies and spare cultists. I glued some admech bits on them and tell my opponent that cawl is experimenting with expendable/redeemable cannon fodder.

EDIT: the +2 to hit strategem made Icarus and Lascannon Ballistari (at least 2 of them in 1 unit) more viable. The +2 to hit on the icarus gives them full BS against ground units and the +2 to hit on the lascannons allows them to effectively ignore a -1 to hit. Of course this also works for the neutron because now you can fire the neutron at a Storm Raven at 2+ to hit, which is hilarious.

 generalchaos34 wrote:
Random question, I know everyone is going "detachment X Mars + Detachment Y Stygies" but would different Forge Worlds even work together at all? The AdMech isn't exactly known for sharing, even among themselves. Maybe im wrong and they still all defer to Mars, but I would have a feeling they would all work together to get an STC and try to kill each other on the way instead of well orchestrated teamwork like our lists are proposing.

Fluff wise? Probably would be some animosity... sometimes maybe hostility. But rules wise, we are looking to press our few advantages from our kinda mediocre Codex. So you see FW blending. My army will be Metalica white, but will be Mars and Stygies!

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
I would really caution against fully investing in conscripts, I'm sure GW has an eye on them with a nerf bat target on their backs as they're dominating every meta.

But yes, if you want the most effective screen for kastellans/cawl/crawlers, conscript blobs are it

There's one of two ways that can go. they nerf them a little and they're still OP or they nerf them HARD. like harder than anything has ever been nerfed before. They're already close to guardsmen level in points as you can make them according to conventional wisdom. So they're going to have to swing a random bat and hope it hits true. If it were me I'd give the commissars the same ability gria gives (I think it's gria) where its basically FNP on a 4+ but only works on morale. instead of negating it all. I'd also do the crazy thing and make them cost the same as guardsmen. the big blob itself as a single unit is value.

Also no conscripts literally in the literal sense have infinitely more destructive power than dragoons... at range.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Suzuteo wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
I would really caution against fully investing in conscripts, I'm sure GW has an eye on them with a nerf bat target on their backs as they're dominating every meta.

But yes, if you want the most effective screen for kastellans/cawl/crawlers, conscript blobs are it

I hope they do a fun debuff. Like this:

Get Fragged: Each time you make a roll of 1 in a Morale test, remove a friendly Commissar within 6".

Funny and dark as gak for those vietnam vets still out there.

 generalchaos34 wrote:
Random question, I know everyone is going "detachment X Mars + Detachment Y Stygies" but would different Forge Worlds even work together at all? The AdMech isn't exactly known for sharing, even among themselves. Maybe im wrong and they still all defer to Mars, but I would have a feeling they would all work together to get an STC and try to kill each other on the way instead of well orchestrated teamwork like our lists are proposing.

Dogmatic Archmagos with a more creative and underhand second who's spent time in the Explorator fleets, if anyone other than the Inquisition has full run on the Imperium then it'll be high ranking members of the Cult Mechanicus. Given the rest of the army is slaved to their perception of reality to some degree, having a conclave of Magi from more than one Forgeworld with their own retinues isn't going to be that uncommon. They're all working to further the glories of Triplex Phall, but learnt their trade in different schools.

gendoikari87 wrote:

Suzuteo wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
I would really caution against fully investing in conscripts, I'm sure GW has an eye on them with a nerf bat target on their backs as they're dominating every meta.

But yes, if you want the most effective screen for kastellans/cawl/crawlers, conscript blobs are it

I hope they do a fun debuff. Like this:

Get Fragged: Each time you make a roll of 1 in a Morale test, remove a friendly Commissar within 6".

Funny and dark as gak for those vietnam vets still out there.

It's actually in the fluff. Colonel Schaeffer and Commissar Cain routinely had to deal with it.

I'm looking to start a 1000 point league with my friends soon, and I'm hoping you guys may offer some feedback on one of the more straightforward lists I'm likely going to play.

Spearhead
Cawl
2 Dakkastelans
1 Neutronager
1 Icarus Onager

Outrider
Engineer w/ Servo Arm
Dragoon
Dragoon
Dragoon

5 CP 999 Pts

Outrider = Stygies
Spearhead = Mars

To be clear however the only reason we are really talking about taking Mars is for Cawl right? The mortal wounds stratagem seems pretty niche to me.

What was the difference between a TPDs reroll and Cawls in % improvement someone had mathhammered it

They just need a relic that you can give a TPD that gives them Cawls reroll or something.

I really just want to run Stygie AM and then the separate scions detachment which I am already planning to paint like Tech Guard


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KampfKrote wrote:
I'm looking to start a 1000 point league with my friends soon, and I'm hoping you guys may offer some feedback on one of the more straightforward lists I'm likely going to play.

Spearhead
Cawl
2 Dakkastelans
1 Neutronager
1 Icarus Onager

Outrider
Engineer w/ Servo Arm
Dragoon
Dragoon
Dragoon

5 CP 999 Pts

Outrider = Stygies
Spearhead = Mars

Should be solid however, I am not sure I would be spending 250 points on Cawl in that points range vs just taking a TPD and more Dakka

KampfKrote wrote:
I'm looking to start a 1000 point league with my friends soon, and I'm hoping you guys may offer some feedback on one of the more straightforward lists I'm likely going to play.

Spoiler:

Spearhead
Cawl
2 Dakkastelans
1 Neutronager
1 Icarus Onager

Outrider
Engineer w/ Servo Arm
Dragoon
Dragoon
Dragoon

5 CP 999 Pts

Outrider = Stygies
Spearhead = Mars

You can cut Cawl for Dominus. With the freed up points, take 3 units of Rangers (or Vanguard) and merge the two units together into one large Stygies Battalion. Skitarii are actually really strong in low-point games where troops are a larger share of the units. Repairs and -1 to hit are also much stronger for the same reasons. You actually don't really even need Wrath of Mars, as you don't have a large enough unit of Kastelans to take advantage of it.

Jaynen wrote:

What was the difference between a TPDs reroll and Cawls in % improvement someone had mathhammered it

That was me.

TPD's reroll 1s aura improves the average dice roll by 11.9%, Cawl's by 27.78%. If we're looking at purely the aura, Cawl is better than Dominus at 723 points. (That means you have 723 points of stuff around Magnus being buffed with rerolls.)

So without the codex on hand, here is what I am thinking for my next list. Note, this is not a tourny list. This is a fun/casual game list.

Stygies Detachemtn
----------------------
1 TPD
1 Engineseer
4 rangers 5 man each, sniper in each
3 Onagar dunecrawlers, 2 neutron beams 1 Icarrus array all stubbors
Goal of this is 4 squads to hold objectives and or screen and if lucky they can snipe somthing as to not make them wholly useless if no targets are close. TPD and Enginseer, will babysit the Dunecrawlers and grant them a reroll.

Lucius Detachment
-------------------------
1 TPD
1 Enginseer
3 squads of Battle servitors*
1 lazcannon chicken

Goal of this force is a good old teleport a problem in your face. I'd teleport all but the enginseer towards something that needed to die, or place a firebase somewhere. Chicken was added to give the priest something to do.
*depending on my mood either 2 squads of destroyers and a squad of breachers or the other way around. Probably heavy grav as I like the five shots each and give them flamers, in case they need to go in hot.

This whole list is about 1700pts, leaving about 300. Which could either be used for adding chickens dragoon or laz chickens in the stygies for extra firepower/counter. Or what I think I will do, make 300pts worth of infiltrators and just have them cause havok.

Thoughts, opinions?

Well if it is a fun casual list, you should not be getting help from this forum. As we will tell you the most optimal thing to do and you'll just crush everyone

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Well if it is a fun casual list, you should not be getting help from this forum. As we will tell you the most optimal thing to do and you'll just crush everyone

Haha, sorry I didn't clarify. I'm not looking for help. This is just a funzies thing and am curious to what others think or would go with instead.

 Tsol wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Well if it is a fun casual list, you should not be getting help from this forum. As we will tell you the most optimal thing to do and you'll just crush everyone

Haha, sorry I didn't clarify. I'm not looking for help. This is just a funzies thing and am curious to what others think or would go with instead.

I say run the Dunestriders as Mars in the main Mars detachment and run them as 1 unit. If they are all 1, then when you use the +2 to hit canticle you get the most out of it. They are less durable as Mars, but their damage as a single unit will be vastly higher per CP spent.

So since we are running the odd 1850 over here, this would be my list for testing. its 1850 on the dot

Mars Spearhead
Cawl
4 Dakkastelans
2 Neutronagers

Stygis Battalion
Enginseer
Enginseer
Rangers
Vanguard
Vanguard
Dragoon
Dragoon

Lucius Vanguard
Enginseer
Corpuscarii (15)
Corpuscarii (14)
Datasmith


This nets 8 CP. I am considering going down to 11 and 12 Corpuscarii to get a TPD with the Solar Flare to support the Priest drop with rerolls of 1s.