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That datasmith can't switch protocols BTW

right, must be same forgeworld. I guess Lucius will be a patrol with more vanguard then. Cant find a way to fit all this stuff into a 1850 lists with 3 detachments yet -.-
ANother approach would be 3x10 corpuscarii and switch another vanguard to rangers to get the 4 points needed...argh!
btw how was your test game?

So looking for some opinion here with Dragoons and Ironstriders.

Putting them in muti-model units lets them get the most out of each respective stratagem. But does that benefit outweigh the side bonus of keeping them as single model units to avoid the over wounding that can come from Mortal Wound spam like Smite and the various new Death Guard abilities?

Second question involving Vanguard. Leadership is a big problem for them, as discussed. But if looking to add in psychic defense via Greyfax or any other psychic Inquisitor, does their buffing nearby Imperium units with their higher leadership make Vangaurd units appealing enough to take in larger sizes and exchange roles with Dragoons? For reference Greyfax gives LD 10 and a regular Inquisitor gives LD 9.

 Marius Xerxes wrote:
So looking for some opinion here with Dragoons and Ironstriders.

Putting them in muti-model units lets them get the most out of each respective stratagem. But does that benefit outweigh the side bonus of keeping them as single model units to avoid the over wounding that can come from Mortal Wound spam like Smite and the various new Death Guard abilities?

Second question involving Vanguard. Leadership is a big problem for them, as discussed. But if looking to add in psychic defense via Greyfax or any other psychic Inquisitor, does their buffing nearby Imperium units with their higher leadership make Vangaurd units appealing enough to take in larger sizes and exchange roles with Dragoons? For reference Greyfax gives LD 10 and a regular Inquisitor gives LD 9.

The trade-off is between coverage and hitting power. Right now, I prefer Dragoons in pairs (there is a pile-in problem for Dragoons in some cases that I illustrated a few pages ago) and Ballistarii in units of 2-4. Theoretically though, a large unit of Dragoons with the Conqueror Doctrina can theoretically kill transports and medium toughness units with the same efficiency as Kastelans.

Vanguard and Dragoons operate in fundamentally different ways. The former stays close to the artillery to provide last-ditch interception. The latter goes out and intercepts enemies.

I would be interested to see someone give Skitarii a try, just for fun though. I doubt it will be competitive.

Ryza Strategem with Plasma Destroyers seem deceptively powerful, has anyone tried it out?

Suzuteo wrote:
Vanguard and Dragoons operate in fundamentally different ways. The former stays close to the artillery to provide last-ditch interception. The latter goes out and intercepts enemies.

I meant "role" in the sense of denying Deep Strike zones and buying time from assaults. They both share that role from what I've read in here so far.

In the case of Dragoons, I would think that you can't start pushing them out right away as that will lead to gaps being opened up turns two and three that could be exploited? With that (possibly inaccurate) assumption they would be holding back much the same as Vanguard I would think. At least for the first one to two turns. Suppose that would depend on what your opponent is holding in reserve and how many turns they will let go by not getting use out of it, holding out hope for a better drop position.

Iago40k wrote:
right, must be same forgeworld. I guess Lucius will be a patrol with more vanguard then. Cant find a way to fit all this stuff into a 1850 lists with 3 detachments yet -.-
ANother approach would be 3x10 corpuscarii and switch another vanguard to rangers to get the 4 points needed...argh!
btw how was your test game?

Opponent had IRL things >.>

Wulfey wrote:

 Tsol wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Well if it is a fun casual list, you should not be getting help from this forum. As we will tell you the most optimal thing to do and you'll just crush everyone

Haha, sorry I didn't clarify. I'm not looking for help. This is just a funzies thing and am curious to what others think or would go with instead.

I say run the Dunestriders as Mars in the main Mars detachment and run them as 1 unit. If they are all 1, then when you use the +2 to hit canticle you get the most out of it. They are less durable as Mars, but their damage as a single unit will be vastly higher per CP spent.

Sadly I only own 1 Dragoon and one Lazcannon chicken (though I could proxy). I am very keen on that strategem though. I think I will have to try that though, I'll make a second more chicken heavy list to see how they play out. I'm still very inexperienced for any of the chickens. I love the way they look but they are so real-world expensive, I haven't gotten many.

So I switched some stuff up and here it is

Mars Spearhead
Cawl
4 Dakkastelans
2 Neutronagers

Stygis Battalion
Enginseer
Enginseer
Rangers
Rangers
Vanguard
Dragoon
Dragoon

Lucius Vanguard
Enginseer
11 Corpuscarii
11 Corpuscarii
11 Corpuscarii

Thinking about making one of the Enginseers the WL to get the WL trait for rolling a 6 and getting a CP. Also i am toying with the idea to kick Cawl out and take 1 Mars TPD and 1 Lucius TPD. The Lucius one could blink with the solar flare after the priests came down to give them rerolls of 1. Sure, Cawl is Boss in a Mars detachment but I am getting crazy over this at the moment. It also scares me that with this detachment I am burning through CPs like crazy. Its 3 for the Priests and I am left with 5. 2 of them could be used for stygis. I could put the dragoons into 1 unit and only put 1 CP into them infiltrating. I need 1 CP for bringing the Kastelans into double shooting protocol and 2 for the mortal wounds one...So I have 1 CP for multipurposes

Not sure it is worth to bring a drop of <15 priests

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Not sure it is worth to bring a drop of <15 priests

Me neither. I am not a fan of dropping 3 units of priests either but I am struggeling with filling up the last elite choice. Datasmith would have been great but if he cannot switch protocols on those Mars Kastelans he is basically Enginseer number 4 -.-
What I want is 2 drops of priests, 14-15 models per unit. Stygis priests could work as well but damn it seems risky to be forced to put 280 points worth of priests in the backfield because the enemy got first turn.
Oh and question: Stygis units have to be deployed at the beginning of the first battle round. which means after thethe seize roll and everything right?

So how is the fires of cyrax or however you spell it going to change things if we get things like hoplites and triarios (triarios a super heavy or just a transport)

Biggest one if we would get CC HQ, or just something different from our standard shoot buffer TPD. Other thing depends on data sheets, and was they bring to the table. Getting transport would free us from necessity of Lucius to get our CC units into enemy positions, maybe getting them to Ryza or Graia. But beyond that, it all depends on what rules units would get.

Huh? The tpd is a cc hq. Not sm level but decent. I use mine as counter charge for my walkers and robots. I mean he's got a good gun too but still.

Iago40k wrote:
Oh and question: Stygis units have to be deployed at the beginning of the first battle round. which means after thethe seize roll and everything right?

If it is like the Raven Guard one, it is at the beginning of the first battle round, but before the first turn begins. So after seize, I believe, but if you are going second it is a liability.

Well by CC HQ i mean dedicated cc. Someone who would actively try to get into fight with our other cc units and maybe buff them(charge after assault aura ect), not just protecting backline. Something like those:
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-PL/Mechanicum-Myrmidon-Secutors

Beyond that, robots with jump packs are possible since they are in 30k, maybe better servitors, there are robots that fluff wise are TEQ. Potential is there.

Oh myrmidons how I love thee. But yeah a dedicated cc hq would be nice. Alpha skitarii or secutor something like that that could infiltrate with the priests or infiltrators

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Iago40k wrote:
Oh and question: Stygis units have to be deployed at the beginning of the first battle round. which means after thethe seize roll and everything right?

If it is like the Raven Guard one, it is at the beginning of the first battle round, but before the first turn begins. So after seize, I believe, but if you are going second it is a liability.

Definitely. But a lot of the units that are going to be deployed this way are fast enough that you can start 12"+ away, move in, and then charge. Obviously, it isn't a perfect strategy because if you end up going second, you are probably going to have those units eat some bullets or a charge.

Also skitarii lore is wide in variety from "basically guard" to gene bulked humans with weaponized limbs to literally being in terminator armor or something equivalent

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Iago40k wrote:
Oh and question: Stygis units have to be deployed at the beginning of the first battle round. which means after thethe seize roll and everything right?

If it is like the Raven Guard one, it is at the beginning of the first battle round, but before the first turn begins. So after seize, I believe, but if you are going second it is a liability.

Question is if it is worth it to put some E-Priests into stygies or if one needs to open a detachment for lucius. As I was saying before I am really struggling with this atm. It looks like a lot of taxpoints in my list on the last page.
BUt if I have to deploy them just before the round starts they are not immediately dead. which is nice^^

Suzuteo wrote:

KampfKrote wrote:
I'm looking to start a 1000 point league with my friends soon, and I'm hoping you guys may offer some feedback on one of the more straightforward lists I'm likely going to play.

Spoiler:

Spearhead
Cawl
2 Dakkastelans
1 Neutronager
1 Icarus Onager

Outrider
Engineer w/ Servo Arm
Dragoon
Dragoon
Dragoon

5 CP 999 Pts

Outrider = Stygies
Spearhead = Mars

You can cut Cawl for Dominus. With the freed up points, take 3 units of Rangers (or Vanguard) and merge the two units together into one large Stygies Battalion. Skitarii are actually really strong in low-point games where troops are a larger share of the units. Repairs and -1 to hit are also much stronger for the same reasons. You actually don't really even need Wrath of Mars, as you don't have a large enough unit of Kastelans to take advantage of it.

Jaynen wrote:

What was the difference between a TPDs reroll and Cawls in % improvement someone had mathhammered it

That was me.

TPD's reroll 1s aura improves the average dice roll by 11.9%, Cawl's by 27.78%. If we're looking at purely the aura, Cawl is better than Dominus at 723 points. (That means you have 723 points of stuff around Magnus being buffed with rerolls.)

But to your point above 2 kastellans and 2 onagers is not enough points to justify Cawl until he is actually buffing 720 points right? So for my little at work skirmishes which are lower points likely I will want to put those points elsewhere. At least currently I only have 2 robots and 2 onagers, but 2 more robots is pretty high on my list


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Iago40k wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Iago40k wrote:
Oh and question: Stygis units have to be deployed at the beginning of the first battle round. which means after thethe seize roll and everything right?

If it is like the Raven Guard one, it is at the beginning of the first battle round, but before the first turn begins. So after seize, I believe, but if you are going second it is a liability.

Question is if it is worth it to put some E-Priests into stygies or if one needs to open a detachment for lucius. As I was saying before I am really struggling with this atm. It looks like a lot of taxpoints in my list on the last page.
BUt if I have to deploy them just before the round starts they are not immediately dead. which is nice^^

I would not be dropping priests by themselves anyway I would use them the same way I use my fulgurites currently which is behind a vanguard screen that hopefully gets charged first and the priests come in to mop up and get their 3+ save then go all murder fest.

Has anyone done any math about the effectiveness of Aegis Protocols with the Stygies -1 vs protector protocol in terms of how much damage is being lost? reflecting shots on a 4? for a mortal wound would seem pretty good?

Jaynen wrote:


I would not be dropping priests by themselves anyway I would use them the same way I use my fulgurites currently which is behind a vanguard screen that hopefully gets charged first and the priests come in to mop up and get their 3+ save then go all murder fest.

Has anyone done any math about the effectiveness of Aegis Protocols with the Stygies -1 vs protector protocol in terms of how much damage is being lost? reflecting shots on a 4? for a mortal wound would seem pretty good?

I don't plan to use Fulgurites, only Corpuscarii. They are vastly different and deepstriking them makes them finally viable. question is if stygies is enough or we need to put them into lucius.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Iago40k wrote:
Oh and question: Stygis units have to be deployed at the beginning of the first battle round. which means after thethe seize roll and everything right?

If it is like the Raven Guard one, it is at the beginning of the first battle round, but before the first turn begins. So after seize, I believe, but if you are going second it is a liability.

Definitely. But a lot of the units that are going to be deployed this way are fast enough that you can start 12"+ away, move in, and then charge. Obviously, it isn't a perfect strategy because if you end up going second, you are probably going to have those units eat some bullets or a charge.

Yea, that is what I mean by liability. Going second means you must deploy them conservatively, not up close and personal. Not the end of the world, because having the chance to T1 charge in with Fulgurites is pretty fantastic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Iago40k wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Iago40k wrote:
Oh and question: Stygis units have to be deployed at the beginning of the first battle round. which means after thethe seize roll and everything right?

If it is like the Raven Guard one, it is at the beginning of the first battle round, but before the first turn begins. So after seize, I believe, but if you are going second it is a liability.

Question is if it is worth it to put some E-Priests into stygies or if one needs to open a detachment for lucius. As I was saying before I am really struggling with this atm. It looks like a lot of taxpoints in my list on the last page.
BUt if I have to deploy them just before the round starts they are not immediately dead. which is nice^^

I think for Corpuscarii, going Lucius is better. Guarantees they get their alpha strike.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jaynen wrote:

Has anyone done any math about the effectiveness of Aegis Protocols with the Stygies -1 vs protector protocol in terms of how much damage is being lost? reflecting shots on a 4? for a mortal wound would seem pretty good?

Per the spoilers thus far, you only reflect shots on a 6 now. Not 6+.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Iago40k wrote:
Oh and question: Stygis units have to be deployed at the beginning of the first battle round. which means after thethe seize roll and everything right?

If it is like the Raven Guard one, it is at the beginning of the first battle round, but before the first turn begins. So after seize, I believe, but if you are going second it is a liability.

Definitely. But a lot of the units that are going to be deployed this way are fast enough that you can start 12"+ away, move in, and then charge. Obviously, it isn't a perfect strategy because if you end up going second, you are probably going to have those units eat some bullets or a charge.

Yea, that is what I mean by liability. Going second means you must deploy them conservatively, not up close and personal. Not the end of the world, because having the chance to T1 charge in with Fulgurites is pretty fantastic.

For me, it is going to be Ruststalkers. They may not hand out mortal wounds as well as Fulgerites, but damn if they don't look awesome when they do it.

Ruststalker are straight up worse

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Ruststalker are straight up worse

He seems aware of that, but is taking them due to their models, not the effectiveness.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Ruststalker are straight up worse

He seems aware of that, but is taking them due to their models, not the effectiveness.

Correct. I really like their models. Also, I am not mixing Skitarii and Cult Mech (other than the mandatory Cult Mech HQs).

Sticking Dragoons in cover and having them come charging in using this method might work well enough as well. The -2 to hit is crazy.

I watched the miniwargaming review of the new codex yesterday...well most of it, they dont really know what they're talking about. But one thing they did mention is that the wording on aegis protocol has changed. It now specifically says that the reflected shots are on an unmodified 6. so all these saving throw bonuses we're getting, including the one from aegis protocol are irrelevant for reflections. Any confirm that for me? I mean if we think about it all these +to saves we could see it coming. reflecting mortal wounds on a 4++ is absurd lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and my current conundrum is whether to go priest or dragoon heavy for my next purchases.

I have essentially not many models, couple of start collecting boxes and a pair of robots. 2 more robots (making 4) and an enginseer are on my list, but i'm trying to figure out whether to go priests or dragoons. both are equally exensive to buy in money and I can only really afford 3 boxes of each. I wont be running cawl, because i dont like named characters tying me in to army-wide rules so plan is 1 tpd and enginseer for hqs, no knights and no imperial soup. I'm working my way up.

Essentially analysing my games in 8th so far my issues have been claiming objectives and any kind of battlefield presence outside of my own deployment and defense against charges, deep strike or mor specifically a couple of flying dameon princes dropping in and ruining my day.

I'm erring towards dragoons, mainly because they appear to be a more flexible choice if i dont intend to drop priests in someones face or hold them back for counter charges. Anyone know if it's possible to magnetize the ironstrider base to switch between dragoon and balastarii? I'm no stranger to magnets so even if it's a challenge I may attempt it anyway. That makes them a better option for me with my limit model resources.

I would like to see army lists on proper threat. Since here on tactis you should be talking about viable competitive tactics. Tactics that can win and those require for example mars we have already played a min Cawl 4-6 robots 3-5 onagers and propably destroeyers and 10 cps. So please if you wanna talk about combinations ok now if you suddently forgot that in order to have competitive we minimum need all that for dakka id appreciate if you opened a threat for you lists.

A single dragoon or a group of two just because they deep strike is not competitive is a waste. Wont have cps to execute dkka wall . Their role was to be meat cheap meat shield. If you wanna do an out rider full of dragoons dont need Cawl dont need warth etc. You need melee buffs stygia and lucius combinations and tought breachers to hold so you wo t get wipped round one. Simply put no offnce but stop spamming asking about the resukt if you send 3 groups of priest . Wont work. You need also tech priest with them with relic on rerolls melee with proper canticle etc etc.

You can compare wht you are doing with the best list so far as we saw ig troops lots with deep strike plasma. They drop 100 plasma shots. You wont win with 100 un buffed 5 0 shots. Sorry. You might if you shoot good and cc as well and thats what they do. Still not as cheap or effective as plasma so you need more to make it work. Why you spamming a list that will do nothing. You go second and mortars with out plasma anihilate you. Even if they get nerfed you cant believe they wont get gems relics etc as well.

So tactics threat contribute if you got a combination that got a role and can actually win something. Deep strike priests and mars half dakka wont cut it.
Deep strike and heave survive list maybe if planned correctly with big units etc. So few stratagems and you dont even got 20 man priest. Plz think a it ehat you are posting. Cant suddently become a dakkaline with half the units we had a week ago. Will not deliver and its not designed to work that way.

More gems more battalions more troops. Or more detachments more elite units bigger unit with purpose. Putting in a list what you vot is good for testing in friendly games . Has nothing to do with tactics. Thanks

Octovol wrote:
I watched the miniwargaming review of the new codex yesterday...well most of it, they dont really know what they're talking about. But one thing they did mention is that the wording on aegis protocol has changed. It now specifically says that the reflected shots are on an unmodified 6. so all these saving throw bonuses we're getting, including the one from aegis protocol are irrelevant for reflections. Any confirm that for me? I mean if we think about it all these +to saves we could see it coming. reflecting mortal wounds on a 4++ is absurd lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and my current conundrum is whether to go priest or dragoon heavy for my next purchases.

I have essentially not many models, couple of start collecting boxes and a pair of robots. 2 more robots (making 4) and an enginseer are on my list, but i'm trying to figure out whether to go priests or dragoons. both are equally exensive to buy in money and I can only really afford 3 boxes of each. I wont be running cawl, because i dont like named characters tying me in to army-wide rules so plan is 1 tpd and enginseer for hqs, no knights and no imperial soup. I'm working my way up.

Essentially analysing my games in 8th so far my issues have been claiming objectives and any kind of battlefield presence outside of my own deployment and defense against charges, deep strike or mor specifically a couple of flying dameon princes dropping in and ruining my day.

I'm erring towards dragoons, mainly because they appear to be a more flexible choice if i dont intend to drop priests in someones face or hold them back for counter charges. Anyone know if it's possible to magnetize the ironstrider base to switch between dragoon and balastarii? I'm no stranger to magnets so even if it's a challenge I may attempt it anyway. That makes them a better option for me with my limit model resources.

Its super easy to magnetize, all you have to do is magnetize the arms, everything else will pop into place or rest on the handlebars. Only thing is I haven't figured out how to do swap lascannons or autocannons so im "stuck" with las. Im sure it would be possible to swap the barrels out.