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I think the dragoons are the right call, I can't imagine them not being part of the army, so it's safe. The priests are still a bit untested.

As for magnetizing, I haven't tried it but from what I remember putting them together it should be doable.

SilverAlien wrote:
I think the dragoons are the right call, I can't imagine them not being part of the army, so it's safe. The priests are still a bit untested.

Agreed. Priests are build-around units in lists that may or may not work, while the Dragoon is a proven asset that is only improved under the new 'Dex.

Wish I could fast-forward two weeks, so we can get an eye on the inevitable FAQ. Really hesitant to build my Destroyers, because if they don't fix them, I may well trade them off.

Someone go try the shooty priest drop already (since I can't atm :p)

So question. Unit of 6 kastelans hitting on 5 kills 16 marines or 24 orks. So with the agrapinaa doctrine what can reliably charge and not die instantly to a unit of 6 kastelans? It ain't a five man unit of terminators average there is 12 wounds. 30 man ork blobs with warboss? Giant tyrranid swarms. What else?


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Also isn't there a wargear that would give them another hit on a 6 or something ?

I'd recommend the wintersSEO review on YouTube. He's not a super competitive gamer, but he's a long-time AdMech player and knows his stuff. It's also shorter by a considerable amount.

Assuming they fix the keyword issue to add Questoris Mechanicus, does anyone have any thoughts about the Forgeworld Knights? I'm drawn towards the Knight Styrix simply for the model.

 monarda wrote:
Assuming they fix the keyword issue to add Questoris Mechanicus, does anyone have any thoughts about the Forgeworld Knights? I'm drawn towards the Knight Styrix simply for the model.

I use an Atropos (it's the one I have) and it's a great tank/distraction carnifex. Tell your opponent how easily it slices through vehicles and monsters and they'll focus it down every game without fail. Here's the kicker, with a 4+ invuln to shooting and a 5+ invuln to melee and 27 wounds, it takes a lot to take down. This soaks a lot of high strength, high damage attacks that could cripple your artillery. In 3 games with this, 4 kastellans, and 2 onagers, I lost 3 kastellans total over all 3 games and the onagers took a combined 5 wounds over that time. It's just straight up solid. At 555 points, it's a little expensive though, just FYI.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
I think the dragoons are the right call, I can't imagine them not being part of the army, so it's safe. The priests are still a bit untested.

Agreed. Priests are build-around units in lists that may or may not work, while the Dragoon is a proven asset that is only improved under the new 'Dex.

Wish I could fast-forward two weeks, so we can get an eye on the inevitable FAQ. Really hesitant to build my Destroyers, because if they don't fix them, I may well trade them off.

I'm hoping the 8 pt Heavy Arc rifles stay. With cheap firepower like that I could get behind using breachers.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Someone go try the shooty priest drop already (since I can't atm :p)

I did, sorta. The problem is they aren't very useful in my meta. The big horde/infantry army here is guard conscript spam. And while they were great at killing conscripts... I didn't really need them dead with my list? My dragoons still couldn't get through the remaining infantry on their own, and I had my kastalens targeting the bigger stuff over the infantry.

The fact they evaporate under any sort of return fire means they need to make up their points in one turn, which they won't against a horde army. 30 corpus priests can kill 40 conscripts/guardsman after they drop on average, which is 120-160 points vs 420 points. I got lucky and killed an entire conscript squad of 50 and knicked another, but that's still not impressive when you have four of the thirty priests left turn two. My opponent didn't even devote that much effort to killing them. Just lasguns from the rest of the infantry.

They also don't do well vs demons if your enemy runs changling+brimstone spam, but that honestly feels like me screwing up and forgetting how their ability works. Could've held them back a turn or two and tried to snipe the changling out. Though by then we'd be in melee so the whole deepstriking bit doesn't seem that relevant.

Maybe if I tried tried them vs orks or nids they would've shined, but I'm kinda skeptical.

They were kinda good vs grey knights though? Could resist smite, actually made their points back and lasted two turns, until the supporting SoB wiped them out. They still weren't really better than the kastalens though.

monarda wrote:Assuming they fix the keyword issue to add Questoris Mechanicus, does anyone have any thoughts about the Forgeworld Knights? I'm drawn towards the Knight Styrix simply for the model.

I tend to think that melee weapons on a Knight are really a waste in this edition. We have feet for horde stomping and can just walk away from more serious threats we didn't shoot to death. Styrix is also very pricey, as all the FW ones are. I think our best bet is always a Crusader.

generalchaos34 wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
I think the dragoons are the right call, I can't imagine them not being part of the army, so it's safe. The priests are still a bit untested.

Agreed. Priests are build-around units in lists that may or may not work, while the Dragoon is a proven asset that is only improved under the new 'Dex.

Wish I could fast-forward two weeks, so we can get an eye on the inevitable FAQ. Really hesitant to build my Destroyers, because if they don't fix them, I may well trade them off.

I'm hoping the 8 pt Heavy Arc rifles stay. With cheap firepower like that I could get behind using breachers.

I doubt the Plasma Cannons will change in price - those seem pretty much stock across most books. What we really need is 20pt Destroyers, because they have that 4+ and only 3W. I could get down with 55-58pt for each. I mean, a 5-man Heckblaster squad is 165pt for 10 wounds with 3+ saves, albeit on T4 bodies not T5. They shoot better though and can Rapid Fire (so 10 shots), while we would average about the same with better range on the move (marginally). So those compare pretty well and fit similar roles, although ours are Troops. So yea, a trio of Destroyers at 174pt or so vs the comparable Heckblasters isn't far off if they were adjusted. But 35pt base winds up just being wayyyyy too much.

As for Heavy Arc... it needs to be S7. Otherwise, it is just worth it. Or AP -4 at S6, sure? I dunno, just not a fan.


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SilverAlien wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Someone go try the shooty priest drop already (since I can't atm :p)

I did, sorta. The problem is they aren't very useful in my meta. The big horde/infantry army here is guard conscript spam. And while they were great at killing conscripts... I didn't really need them dead with my list? My dragoons still couldn't get through the remaining infantry on their own, and I had my kastalens targeting the bigger stuff over the infantry.

The fact they evaporate under any sort of return fire means they need to make up their points in one turn, which they won't against a horde army. 30 corpus priests can kill 40 conscripts/guardsman after they drop on average, which is 120-160 points vs 420 points. I got lucky and killed an entire conscript squad of 50 and knicked another, but that's still not impressive when you have four of the thirty priests left turn two. My opponent didn't even devote that much effort to killing them. Just lasguns from the rest of the infantry.

They also don't do well vs demons if your enemy runs changling+brimstone spam, but that honestly feels like me screwing up and forgetting how their ability works. Could've held them back a turn or two and tried to snipe the changling out. Though by then we'd be in melee so the whole deepstriking bit doesn't seem that relevant.

Maybe if I tried tried them vs orks or nids they would've shined, but I'm kinda skeptical.

They were kinda good vs grey knights though? Could resist smite, actually made their points back and lasted two turns, until the supporting SoB wiped them out. They still weren't really better than the kastalens though.

Definitely seems like a meta call for sure and I can't see it factoring into the competitive scene as much. Too many hordes, where the volume won't matter. Against more elite armies where failing saves hurts per model, sure, but really it is a lot of work to make them work properly.

Personally, I am just going to double-down on the gunline. I think that is where we shine brightest.

I think it might work if you build a list around them, but I don't think they are particularly useful alongside our existing gun line builds. Vanguard/rangers screen better, and we really don't need deepstrike anti infantry firepower that badly.

Octovol wrote:
I watched the miniwargaming review of the new codex yesterday...well most of it, they dont really know what they're talking about. But one thing they did mention is that the wording on aegis protocol has changed. It now specifically says that the reflected shots are on an unmodified 6. so all these saving throw bonuses we're getting, including the one from aegis protocol are irrelevant for reflections. Any confirm that for me? I mean if we think about it all these +to saves we could see it coming. reflecting mortal wounds on a 4++ is absurd lol

Oh and my current conundrum is whether to go priest or dragoon heavy for my next purchases.

I have essentially not many models, couple of start collecting boxes and a pair of robots. 2 more robots (making 4) and an enginseer are on my list, but i'm trying to figure out whether to go priests or dragoons. both are equally exensive to buy in money and I can only really afford 3 boxes of each. I wont be running cawl, because i dont like named characters tying me in to army-wide rules so plan is 1 tpd and enginseer for hqs, no knights and no imperial soup. I'm working my way up.

Essentially analysing my games in 8th so far my issues have been claiming objectives and any kind of battlefield presence outside of my own deployment and defense against charges, deep strike or mor specifically a couple of flying dameon princes dropping in and ruining my day.

I'm erring towards dragoons, mainly because they appear to be a more flexible choice if i dont intend to drop priests in someones face or hold them back for counter charges. Anyone know if it's possible to magnetize the ironstrider base to switch between dragoon and balastarii? I'm no stranger to magnets so even if it's a challenge I may attempt it anyway. That makes them a better option for me with my limit model resources.

Yes, we mentioned it earlier. Natural 6s for Aegis and double shots, which helps for certain new rules.

Dragoons are superior screens to Electro-Priests. Electro-Priests are superior deep-strikers to Sicarians now. They just need a good detachment dogma.

Magnetizing Dragoons can be tricky. Lots of small, fiddly bits. I would just swap the entire right arm and cannon module out.

Do we have any other way of beating Horde screens then? They just take over the table and win through objectives if you don't kill them, no?

Let me guess: bring your own.

That is why Guard is strong though. They're good at plopping giant bricks on objectives and forcing us to uproot them--all the while worrying about Scions jumping in and ruining our day.

Basically, they need to nerf Conscripts.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Do we have any other way of beating Horde screens then? They just take over the table and win through objectives if you don't kill them, no?

Let me guess: bring your own.

Pin them in with dragoons, 2 per unit works well imo. They can fall back, but you can control which direction they fall back, as any sort of large horde will struggle to move their entire squad from one side of your dragoon to the other, and with two you can prevent them from even moving off to a side, forcing them to fall back the direction you want them to.

These are also low priority units. Yes, they can capture objectives, but you have time to deal with them. Using kastalens which focus on tanks or MC or elite infantry first, then turn to objective holding squads afterwards is a viable option.

Also, let's be honest: kastalens are better at killing hordes. In one turn? No. But kastalens will get 2 or more turns shooting vs most horde armies, particularly melee ones. So even if you just want to focus infantry, the staying power of kastalens will usually outweigh the one turn potential of the priests.

Plus, our infantry is another option. Rangers aren't actually that much worse at killing geq compared to priests for their cost, plus can be significantly tougher and don't need cp. Use barebones squads with Stygies to capture objectives and fight other infantry.

The fact is you are already going to field all of the above units, and they can do this without being single purpose suicide units.

Can I ask what army you really see this helping against? Brimstone spam is the big one, because (without changling) they clear those our dramatically better than kastalens and aren't at much risk themselves. But against guard they die too quick to make a real impact, against orks or nids their hordes are almost all melee focused and will come to you, and I'm not sure what other horde armies are out there and very competitive.

Well there are mostly 2 armies in warhamer right now: Brimstones, Changeling /Cultists screen + stuff
Conscripts/assassins screen + stuff

I think a nice big package of dakkastelans is well equiped for killing hordes.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Well there are mostly 2 armies in warhamer right now: Brimstones, Changeling /Cultists screen + stuff
Conscripts/assassins screen + stuff

They need to nerf Conscripts and rework the character rule. The assassins army is stupid.

For brimstones... yeah I can see holding them a turn or two, using rangers to sniper changling then drop them in. But, at least the way my friend plays them, that many turns in whatever they were screening should be in melee range and the deepstrike is kinda questionable? Also brimstones apparently don't get obj secured, because demons are weird. Not sure if that's still the official word but that's how tournaments were running it.

For guard, I think we should focus on outshooting them, which we can do. Stygies is wonderful vs a BS 4+ army and BS 5+ conscripts. The scions can be a bit more dangerous, but again we now have proper infantry to screen and protect our big units.

The assassin thing I'm less familiar with, I'll have to look into it. I'd assume we just need more snipers in our list.

Iago40k wrote:
I think a nice big package of dakkastelans is well equiped for killing hordes.

Six robots with 108 shots wounding on 2's with re-rolling to hits? They can clear out ~70 Conscripts a turn. Not bad.

Sadly, it is only a meager ~35 Brimstones, because of course they have a 4++ which is just absurd. But we might even be able to ignore them somewhat if we can just Wrath up Magnus, taking away their heavy hitter.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Iago40k wrote:
I think a nice big package of dakkastelans is well equiped for killing hordes.

Six robots with 108 shots wounding on 2's with re-rolling to hits? They can clear out ~70 Conscripts a turn. Not bad.

Sadly, it is only a meager ~35 Brimstones, because of course they have a 4++ which is just absurd. But we might even be able to ignore them somewhat if we can just Wrath up Magnus, taking away their heavy hitter.

Don't forget that brimstones aren't immune to morale. Distribute the kastalen's fire to try and get around 5-7 wounds per squad, and you can bump that to 45-50 range. Not a huge improvement but it's important to remember.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Iago40k wrote:
I think a nice big package of dakkastelans is well equiped for killing hordes.

Six robots with 108 shots wounding on 2's with re-rolling to hits? They can clear out ~70 Conscripts a turn. Not bad.

Sadly, it is only a meager ~35 Brimstones, because of course they have a 4++ which is just absurd. But we might even be able to ignore them somewhat if we can just Wrath up Magnus, taking away their heavy hitter.

Except 1x6 Kastelans is dangerous, especially against armies like Tau.

Wrath of Mars is great because we can pretty much instantly kill any character with 4 Kastelans. (I think we need a bit of assistance for Magnus though. Even 6 Kastelans can't do an average of 18 damage to T7 4++.)

Um how do you target characters with kastelans?

Suzuteo wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Iago40k wrote:
I think a nice big package of dakkastelans is well equiped for killing hordes.

Six robots with 108 shots wounding on 2's with re-rolling to hits? They can clear out ~70 Conscripts a turn. Not bad.

Sadly, it is only a meager ~35 Brimstones, because of course they have a 4++ which is just absurd. But we might even be able to ignore them somewhat if we can just Wrath up Magnus, taking away their heavy hitter.

Except 1x6 Kastelans is dangerous, especially against armies like Tau.

Wrath of Mars is great because we can pretty much instantly kill any character with 4 Kastelans. (I think we need a bit of assistance for Magnus though. Even 6 Kastelans can't do an average of 18 damage to T7 4++.)

1x6 is no more or less dangerous, really, than 2x3 or 3x2 or whatnot. It just saves us CP when we Wrath.

We are doing ~10 mortal wounds to Magnus when he is in the Changeling bubble. Maybe 9ish will get through his 4++ w/ re-rolling 1's. So, that is just enough to kill him on averages.



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gendoikari87 wrote:
Um how do you target characters with kastelans?

10W or more stuff you can target, like Magnus and Fateweaver.

Oh right. Forgot there was a reason girlyman had 9 wounds

Well thats why we got wrath of mars a great buff. It gives an alpha strike feared from all armies. Thats why inflitrators are the best suited with mars especially when we play vs heavy assault armies. You can wrath a unit of 5-10 in any round you decide. Thats why we got insta protocol change but cant move. And generrally Mars can deal a great alpha strike ofshooting with elimination combo can do also overcharge plasma effective and threat even bigger tougness witj plasma maybe heavy enemy high toughness chars. Do not forget in this combo you can take less icarus so might work with 3 neutron or 4 depending on you detachments and if you need anti air plasma can do it or a simple gem protective doctrina +2 with broad on neutrons. Same goes for all targets like high vallue Tau with lots of -1 to hit them or even the mission with -1. All those can be dealts with elimination volley 4 robots 3-6 destroyers and 3-4 neutronagers Cawl is a great must. Now thats a dakka line and i strongly suggest 5-10 inf. That can benefit from wrath in later rounds and two melee canticles as well as 2 doctrinas. Wanna calc what 10 inflitrators with wrath and a tpd with omnicient mask can do if you play +1 to hit and reroll ones to hit with wrath on wounds charge with +1 to hit reroll 5+ tazer. +1 str shroid or reroll ones or whatev cantice even electromancy .
? In any big or small unit? Thats focus fire and focus planning. Onagers got 145 points with 2* stubber not bad to forget 5 will deliver 30 shots better than 5 priests for me 36 range.

The robots 6 -2 1 -COVER clear obj holders like a free cake. Plasma fill the gap you can even make a deep strike small detach to send 5-10 vang with plasma the volume of fire the buffs or non spend cp if things go wrong s extreme. 10 vanguard will shoot 21 rifle shots and 6 plasma . We dont have issues with bloops. Even if you play priest. But thats another tactic...


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If you really want priests.

Units of 20 will do. Lucius for range ones stygia for melee ones. Make sure you got them both buffed with tpd for range with full range weapons. And omnis. Mask for melee. You require 4 cp s only for the deploy and deep strike. And you ll need to decide the rest of your army with heavy defence. So 2* vanguard and 1* battal. Seems valid. Most likely stygia can be battalion for options. Depending on enemy inflotrate breachers or priests accordingly. Flexible units like onagers are preffered. Neutronagers and icarus in teams of two. Mobility and toughness we seek. Graia battalion super good for camping troops and dragoons for flank defence . When dragoons die explode so dont forget to ge them in place. Onagers with broadsp are enough with graia to defend and always get a vanguard group for that -1 tough. Rapid rangers in meele shooting a unit with -1 is great defence. While stygia breachers great campers. If they get 7 str arc then they ll be #1 for surviving supplements.

Both priests cause either in same detachment or different you ll get to decide varying the enemy what you need to spend cp s upon. Need anti bloop then range one. Need mortals then elite. Vanguards can close the detach ment can prpvide cheap third option as counter in your army or move 8 etc. Theycan be an option with skitarii buffs if things go wrong. Or you facing elite armie. If you believe a more priests 1*5 and 1*5 can defend or even inf. Again id suggest one detach. Licius or stygia to get a plan and use it. Mybe 2*20 same priests id take melee ones as they team up with dragoons and a batt graia to defene and deal with blops. Snipes in stygia or any detachment can help a lot here since a lat wound if you plit fire a char kill is vital to win this. A unit if breachers withnapl buffs can hold the relic for 2 rounds easy. High alpha strike elite mobile armoes can hurt you a lot plan accordingly. If they come for you dont forget you can always screen with graia deep - inf breacherd and all priests and vanguard initially where the best counter units.
If you finally decide one type of priests and use one hq to buff them can lower the cp cost. Drop 20 with hq buff them then nother 20 as long as hq i 6" from both. If you decide what type you ll favor there i always cheap s!itarii to fill the detachm 2*10 melee priest one rust same for rnge and inf or mess around. Your playtyke determines a lot here but dont forget onagers to cover what you will be missing. Usually antitnk. Unless you plan to deep strike plasma vanguards and or destroyers. If you go stygia dragoons prefer 1*2-3 dragoons and solo las balistari. Same goe for them either they remain t back or inlflitrate can get buffed from hq on both types of priest. And usually you wanna run same canticles according to your plan.

Troops troops troops. As many as possible with stars can be done with 2* batt and 2* vang detachments. And mass. Use gems where you need form expoding till mass inf. Units all over the table. Your army can move and shoot all of them and usually advance and shoot. You can kite of need for last rounds. As said reloc type games 6 spread obj etc is your thing!! Of you decide to go for less detachments dragoons melee priest etc melee in general favored for stygia detachment. Remember if you going second plqce your units at least 12" away for the enemy.

Deciding what units will be put in deep strike or inflitrate is the most important part of the game . So care the lucius amd stygia units simce they provide the options. While a Graia detach best use units bare bones and troops or onagers.


Generall.

Mars better split in 2* spearhead. Dont forget to ppqce units in range and give buffs before warth of mars. Cawl in not debatable if got 6+ hevies robots or destroyers.

Stygia best all around can be a battalion depending on plan. Usually vanguards - outriders. Most likely can be seen as brigade in lowe point games.
Units in stygia gppd defence and good offence. So all options will help dewl with various enemies.

Graia. Dont forgef warlord here will make you troops shoot in melee like pistols also in other melee fights. Take an extra on tpd relic +1 cp. Graia specific gem provides negation on pshycher abilities if within 24 of a graia unit roll 4+.

Lucius got a super relic that teleport your hq 30". What a great realoc. Making -1 ap -0 is not good.
Synergy

You dont have to buy all units day one vanguard and rangers now in graia work superb together need both.
Priests melee dragoons rustallkers can do the same. Range priests and inflt balistari can do same.you can use the army you got just remember if you eventually decide a plan you d be better to form detachments with bigger same units to execute and fill the rest. So eventually you d buy one larger group. Especially if you decide troops priests etc.

Make your list abjust relics compare the list with any other you believe is competitive and abjust details. Hf thanks for reading. As awlays this is my opinion and contribution not trying to cnvince none or know it all. As i see the codex thus far.

Omnisient mask works for skitari so if not planning to deep strike or inf any use for defence in graia. The fnp 6+ and wepons are good cust. If you go heavy melee priests plan to use gem and reroll ones canticle!

I remain wholly unconvinced when it comes to giant electropriest blobs. I am not seeing how they deal more damage than deep strike plasma vanguard. Even with deepstrike the staff priests can't reliably get a first turn charge. I could see running a blob of staff priests as Stygies and hoping you get first turn. If you do, you can move them on turn 1 before the charge. Other than that ... the priests look terrible because they can't use the awesome +toHit strategems that skitarii can use. Electropriests remain models that cost as much as space marine veterans but die like brimstones.

EDIT: kataphron destoryers remain terrible. 70 point models that can die to basic bolter/lasgun fire is just a farce. People bring wayyyy too many 'autocannon' type weapons that deal 2 damage for kataphron destroyers to be viable. Especially when you have phosphor blaster kastelons sitting there at 110 points. 2 dakkastelons is almost always more damage than 3 kataphron destroyers now thanks to the ability to first turn double shoot and wrath of mars. However, I am considering bringing 1 min squad of arc rifle breachers just so I can get at the +1 to hit canticle for the robots. The question is whether 3 breachers for 50 points a piece is better than just bringing an additional 110 point robot.

EDIT2: however, I would run staff priests in a brigade as a tax. I would run them as min squads and hide them out of LOS. If the opponent has melee or deepstrike, then they get to play. Otherwise they are just going to get shot against a gunline.

I think our plasma culiverins are reasonably well priced, 27 vs 21 for a regular cannon. Ours are d6 vs the standard d3, not 100% sure that's worth 6 points but it's exclusively on a platform that can move and fire whereas most others are subject to movement penalties.

It's the kataphron base I'm not keen on. As a model concept I like it, but the mediocre BS and save really get my goat. At least with the kastelan BS 4+ it's on a sturdy survivable platform. Kataphron are just slightly more sponges marines. If they had BS 3+ and nothing else changed I'd consider them for the same points.


Heavy arc rifles feel a bit redundant because they're one point cheaper than a heavy phosphor and cover ignoring aside they are d3 dmg but 1 shot less unless against vehicles then d6 dmg. I dunno I'm always a bit unimpressed by anything that's d3 dmg unless it has a mortal wound component. I'd much rather it be 2 dmg or 4 dmg. Haywire used to be super reliable.

4 damage is the average of a neutron laser....

I would use priests as mars in defence and sicarans for attacking deep strike since they are best buffed from 2 canticles and relics. If you dont play dakka heavies for mars priests plasma in mass can defend superb. Stygia always an option yes.

Breachers benefit from -1 to hit infliltrate as stygia as obj secure. Gem with +1 save +1 attack makes them really hard same as shroid and los. They will hit 4 times each in melee and their arc. Non impprtant as we talking holding an obj from round one or relic is your best tough troop. Thats it.can work as boduguards or lucius teleport hq.