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I mean with all our new stratagems I will test some infiltrators again. With 5 shots a peace and wrath of mars? Yummy. Also they get 2 canticles so could be rerolls in either cc or range. Stratagem for +1 in melee pumps them into high heavens as well thanks to taser.

gendoikari87 wrote:
4 damage is the average of a neutron laser....

Indeed and we don't feel bothered about the cost of a neutron laser do we I dunno the heavy arc rifle ain't so bad, the regular rifle could use some love though. The arc pistol would be my pistol of choice if there was a pistol choice to be made lol. There's just a bunch of unique weapons we have whose potential is being squandered I feel. Every single unit has a different weapon. Or found in any other army and yet some of them don't even have any rules (looking at you torsion cannon) that would set them apart from the rest of the imperium.

Imagine how worthwhile a squad of rangers would be for example if they had retained their precision shots functionality. 30" character sprayers would be an excellent option to have and set them distinctly apart from vanguard.

Wulfey wrote:
I remain wholly unconvinced when it comes to giant electropriest blobs. I am not seeing how they deal more damage than deep strike plasma vanguard. Even with deepstrike the staff priests can't reliably get a first turn charge. I could see running a blob of staff priests as Stygies and hoping you get first turn. If you do, you can move them on turn 1 before the charge. Other than that ... the priests look terrible because they can't use the awesome +toHit strategems that skitarii can use. Electropriests remain models that cost as much as space marine veterans but die like brimstones.

EDIT: kataphron destoryers remain terrible. 70 point models that can die to basic bolter/lasgun fire is just a farce. People bring wayyyy too many 'autocannon' type weapons that deal 2 damage for kataphron destroyers to be viable. Especially when you have phosphor blaster kastelons sitting there at 110 points. 2 dakkastelons is almost always more damage than 3 kataphron destroyers now thanks to the ability to first turn double shoot and wrath of mars. However, I am considering bringing 1 min squad of arc rifle breachers just so I can get at the +1 to hit canticle for the robots. The question is whether 3 breachers for 50 points a piece is better than just bringing an additional 110 point robot.

EDIT2: however, I would run staff priests in a brigade as a tax. I would run them as min squads and hide them out of LOS. If the opponent has melee or deepstrike, then they get to play. Otherwise they are just going to get shot against a gunline.

Agreed on Electro-Priests. The shooty ones are okay as Lucius, but risky because you want them to charge.

Destroyers might work with Agripinaa. I still think that's the dark horse army that people don't expect. It's like Tide of Traitors, only with one of the most efficient weapons in the game that can shoot 36". Take the stock setup for more shootiness. The chief problem with Destroyers is that they're glass cannons: great gun, crap durability. So the key is really to set them up last in a flank where the opponent cannot bring all their firepower to bear. As long as your opponent cannot kill them all in one turn, they will not try, creating a sort of pseudo-invincibility. (It also makes cold dice really, really punishing.)

I'm thinking the only army that wants a Brigade is the aforementioned Agripinaa. I would use Servitors as the tax, though I admit it is questionable how much you would want to invest in them. (Plasma gun on something like that is sort of silly. Makes me wish Elimination Volley also used Servitors.)

Ruza Agripnnaa can benefit from destroyerd with a group of robots. Tpd can give reroll ones and with bs3+ both options are legit. Agripnaa would req a bigger unit of destroyerd while ryza can benefit all plasma??

Ryza is very confusing. They buff melee and plasma, but don't give us Infiltrate or Deep Strike like Stygies and Lucius. The massive de-synergy makes it the worst of the Forge Worlds, worse than even Metallica.

This may sounds contentious, but I want to explore some use of Rangers + Arc Rifle. It's not great, but for 4 points a Str 6, AP -1 and D3 damage on vehicle, on a 40pt squad - that ain't bad at all.

Either with Styges as a way to help soften transports as they hurtle towards your screens, or with Lucius as something to DS in and put some pressure on light armour if needs be. Hell, they're something effective against MEQ infantry, so you can feel you're getting some mileage out of them aside from being a unit of martyrs...

Suzuteo wrote:

Wulfey wrote:
I remain wholly unconvinced when it comes to giant electropriest blobs. I am not seeing how they deal more damage than deep strike plasma vanguard. Even with deepstrike the staff priests can't reliably get a first turn charge. I could see running a blob of staff priests as Stygies and hoping you get first turn. If you do, you can move them on turn 1 before the charge. Other than that ... the priests look terrible because they can't use the awesome +toHit strategems that skitarii can use. Electropriests remain models that cost as much as space marine veterans but die like brimstones.

EDIT: kataphron destoryers remain terrible. 70 point models that can die to basic bolter/lasgun fire is just a farce. People bring wayyyy too many 'autocannon' type weapons that deal 2 damage for kataphron destroyers to be viable. Especially when you have phosphor blaster kastelons sitting there at 110 points. 2 dakkastelons is almost always more damage than 3 kataphron destroyers now thanks to the ability to first turn double shoot and wrath of mars. However, I am considering bringing 1 min squad of arc rifle breachers just so I can get at the +1 to hit canticle for the robots. The question is whether 3 breachers for 50 points a piece is better than just bringing an additional 110 point robot.

EDIT2: however, I would run staff priests in a brigade as a tax. I would run them as min squads and hide them out of LOS. If the opponent has melee or deepstrike, then they get to play. Otherwise they are just going to get shot against a gunline.

Agreed on Electro-Priests. The shooty ones are okay as Lucius, but risky because you want them to charge.

Destroyers might work with Agripinaa. I still think that's the dark horse army that people don't expect. It's like Tide of Traitors, only with one of the most efficient weapons in the game that can shoot 36". Take the stock setup for more shootiness. The chief problem with Destroyers is that they're glass cannons: great gun, crap durability. So the key is really to set them up last in a flank where the opponent cannot bring all their firepower to bear. As long as your opponent cannot kill them all in one turn, they will not try, creating a sort of pseudo-invincibility. (It also makes cold dice really, really punishing.)

I'm thinking the only army that wants a Brigade is the aforementioned Agripinaa. I would use Servitors as the tax, though I admit it is questionable how much you would want to invest in them. (Plasma gun on something like that is sort of silly. Makes me wish Elimination Volley also used Servitors.)

Maybe the following for plasma destroyers. Let's assume there is LOS blocking terrain and I have some way of getting them out of line of sight for the first turn. The +1 to hit strategem makes them dramatically more reliable. If I run a Mars brigade, a unit of plasmaphons could have a big synergy with my 5 dakkastelons and Cawl.

If I can't assume LOS blocking terrain ... 5 of them can fit into a 100 point bunker. Assuming you get second turn, that should survive and you can walk them out to line up the Cawl/5xDakkastellon/Turn1Doubleshoot/WrathofMars/+1 to hit to both kataphrons and robots mega death punch.

I Have been running some numbers on this actually. Looks like 350 points of plasmprhons overcharging and getting all the bonuses ends up doing worse than 330 points of double shooting dakkastelons, especially if the dakkastelons get wrath of mars. I will try to run some mathhammer of how much that synergy from the strategem gets compared to just running 2 more robots.

I imagine if you had a way to kill commissars effectively the conscript blob itself isn't as big of an issue when it can suffer more than one model of morale loss a turn?

gendoikari87 wrote:
4 damage is the average of a neutron laser....

But a Neitron cuts through armor and is high strength. Heavy Arc offers neither.

Suzuteo wrote:
Ryza is very confusing. They buff melee and plasma, but don't give us Infiltrate or Deep Strike like Stygies and Lucius. The massive de-synergy makes it the worst of the Forge Worlds, worse than even Metallica.

I actually gotta agree with this. Ryza seems just kinda...thrown in. No real synergies and just kinda bonuses thrown together with no cohesiveness.

So I did more calcs. Conscripts are about FOURTEEN times more durable than priests. Yuck

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
So I did more calcs. Conscripts are about FOURTEEN times more durable than priests. Yuck

Well, we still have 3 months before conscripts are nerfed into the ground by Chapter Approved right, what GW is trying to tell us is "pretend conscripts are servitors and take them in your army to make up for the lazy Codex Mechanicus"

Derp. 3-4 times more durable. I think I didn't divide by pts properly :p
But if you compare them, conscripts seem 7 times better :(

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I assume they will be nerfed in their codex

 ph34r wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
So I did more calcs. Conscripts are about FOURTEEN times more durable than priests. Yuck

Well, we still have 3 months before conscripts are nerfed into the ground by Chapter Approved right, what GW is trying to tell us is "pretend conscripts are servitors and take them in your army to make up for the lazy Codex Mechanicus"

The IG/AM Codex is due out before then. So we may see some changes before CA lands in December.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Suzuteo wrote:
Ryza is very confusing. They buff melee and plasma, but don't give us Infiltrate or Deep Strike like Stygies and Lucius. The massive de-synergy makes it the worst of the Forge Worlds, worse than even Metallica.

I actually gotta agree with this. Ryza seems just kinda...thrown in. No real synergies and just kinda bonuses thrown together with no cohesiveness.

Yeah...as someone who painted their army as Ryza...I'm pretty disappointed. The plasma stratagem is nice, but the only plasma that you can take in numbers enough to make it worthwhile is Kataphrons.

They should have switched the dogma with the stratagem.

A unit armed with some kind of Plasma sword or melee plasma cutter to double up on the Ryza bonuses would have been nice.

interviglium wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Suzuteo wrote:
Ryza is very confusing. They buff melee and plasma, but don't give us Infiltrate or Deep Strike like Stygies and Lucius. The massive de-synergy makes it the worst of the Forge Worlds, worse than even Metallica.

I actually gotta agree with this. Ryza seems just kinda...thrown in. No real synergies and just kinda bonuses thrown together with no cohesiveness.

Yeah...as someone who painted their army as Ryza...I'm pretty disappointed. The plasma stratagem is nice, but the only plasma that you can take in numbers enough to make it worthwhile is Kataphrons.

They should have switched the dogma with the stratagem.

A unit armed with some kind of Plasma sword or melee plasma cutter to double up on the Ryza bonuses would have been nice.

Switching the two doesn't make sense. GW wanted the Chapter Tactics equivalents to be as army wide as possible, which they did succeed in. Issue with Ryza is nothing entirely clicks together.

I dont care to see conscripts nerfed i dont they never bothered me and i used infantry usually to remain close to ad mech as possible. Mortars and 100 plasma shots i care of. Mortal will need a point increase or remove the non los .

The game is not only 2 k points. So in lower point games where destroyerscan be valuable as troops and arty agripnaa is lethal same as ryza. A full plasma army for ryza or a big destroyer unit for agripnaa are combinations good enough for many games. Even as suplement armies. 2 robots always a way to keep damage up.

I think deetoyersand robots with 3+ bs and tpd reroll ones is a v v good choise if no Cawl or mars . Didnt say its the best but a choise. Fortifications still help with these combinations. Ryza buffsmelee as well for a complete solo low points dogma. Its good for what it is. And maybe if you make it work for 1000-1500 points you can build with lucius stygia for more. Maybe.

With out some testing atm Mars seems easy to be build as list pre codex with a bit more robots less icarus and any other option stygia being a smart combination of options. Use inf in any unit you ll need while keep the units you want at tne back for mars. Personally i can see only ad mech army lists if you remain calm znd fill fhe gaps with low point options. A batt with 2 engiseer and 3 rangers will provide +3 cp for 224 . Its a start id use one vanguard and one tpd as default giving some options. Same goes for ark. So you could make an elite batt for so e reason with tpd engiseer 2* rangers and 1 * vang plasma 350 ish and its not bad teamed with amdragoon or onager for data tether. I usually take units of moral/model/ unit. So a 7-8 moral troop can go to 7-8 size. If you want the extra heavy on 10 mans id suggest with more durable dogmas. Graia provides the 6+ not slain for shooting melee moral and got a gem for anti psych. There are options but
Large full groups of infantry all kinds are for planned situations. So if you take 10-20 priests better have them supportedmeither from dogma or gems. Same goes for 10 man troops. A full vanguard plasma unit needs hq near and a purpose.

We got the best sniper in the game. I used 4 groups in an apocal game. Atm 97 poimts /5 with omnisp. And the result on chars was incedible. As we have seen how games evolve id try them out can be extremely valuable teamed up with jezz or assasins or just 2-4 groups. Killing the sunapse nid or the commisar or any valuadle easy kill char is priceless and has nothing to do with points. If commisar dies then no leadership no moral invunerable etc. Things can go really bad for char based armies. You got 60" 7 -2 bla bla gun . I even used it to kill a last wound on dark eldar lance vehicles in a game. Its a serious gun the rangers keep deep strikes from sides or back and got a 30 range to support your lines. Its good enoough. Try it.

interviglium wrote:
Yeah...as someone who painted their army as Ryza...I'm pretty disappointed. The plasma stratagem is nice, but the only plasma that you can take in numbers enough to make it worthwhile is Kataphrons.

I almost did Ryza but the Orange was too intimidating for me. It honestly sucks that anyone that went with a Canon forgeworld other than mars has to choose between following the "fluffy" doctrina or the powerful one. I went with my own custom scheme but it looks like I'll still be mars at the end of the day.

I like your paint job . And i have done my army customed colored as well. There are tranfer sheets you can mark any units with initials of forgeworlds and keep any color you like. I use forge world small banners to seperate my units while i retain my custom colors and had no problemin any tour ever. Nor most importantly ruin any of my fun in creatingmy army. Only Cawl i painted a bit more redish since he is named. Rest is my army and as long as you got a way to mark different dogmas and fellow players are sure they wont be cheated nothing else matters.

Paint an L in you onager and its from lucius etc. Small to repaint if need. Pick the 7th edition codex and check the symbols if you like and in a hurry. If your wierd you can also paint smaller part close to dogmas if thats the case.

Tip : dragoons we talked about extensivelly prior of codex . I believe they need to be in units of 2. And since you ll be taking them up field i suggest detachments like.

Outrider stygia
1*2 dragoons
Balistarii
Balistarii

Or solo 1*2 dragoon if no outrider. If you never wanna inflitrate your ironstriders onagers remain better cheaper and with 2 stubbers versatile.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

interviglium wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Suzuteo wrote:
Ryza is very confusing. They buff melee and plasma, but don't give us Infiltrate or Deep Strike like Stygies and Lucius. The massive de-synergy makes it the worst of the Forge Worlds, worse than even Metallica.

I actually gotta agree with this. Ryza seems just kinda...thrown in. No real synergies and just kinda bonuses thrown together with no cohesiveness.

Yeah...as someone who painted their army as Ryza...I'm pretty disappointed. The plasma stratagem is nice, but the only plasma that you can take in numbers enough to make it worthwhile is Kataphrons.

They should have switched the dogma with the stratagem.

A unit armed with some kind of Plasma sword or melee plasma cutter to double up on the Ryza bonuses would have been nice.

Switching the two doesn't make sense. GW wanted the Chapter Tactics equivalents to be as army wide as possible, which they did succeed in. Issue with Ryza is nothing entirely clicks together.

With the exception of Metallica, who do have a weapon specific dogma.

I just find that with the toolbox Ad Mech has, it would feel more natural to build a list around Kataphrons and plasma vanguard than around a melee bonus.

 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:
This may sounds contentious, but I want to explore some use of Rangers + Arc Rifle. It's not great, but for 4 points a Str 6, AP -1 and D3 damage on vehicle, on a 40pt squad - that ain't bad at all.

Either with Styges as a way to help soften transports as they hurtle towards your screens, or with Lucius as something to DS in and put some pressure on light armour if needs be. Hell, they're something effective against MEQ infantry, so you can feel you're getting some mileage out of them aside from being a unit of martyrs...

You are not wrong on the rangers and Arc Rifle. The Ark rifle is an awesome weapon. Its just garbage at hurting vehicles. Use it on medium and light infantry. If I don't run my rangers with snipers, I always give them arcs.


That being said, I keep seeing this all over the place that conscripts are borken. And I don't know why; there are four Imperial soup lists and two IG players other than myself who play in our local casual and in our competitive local tournies. And in no game have they ever seemed broken. Its not their base stat as a sometimes Ork player and often Nid player, (I use grots and guants as my screens) their costs are about what they should be, and their moral is not the issue as Orks and Nids have better moral handling (nids being wholly fearless). So I assume it must be the orders of FRFSRF, but even then in the games I see and play in, their Crap BS is not particularly useful. Just useful enough to cause damage to some models due to sheer volly fire. Which is what they are supposed to do.

The most difficult thing I can imagine for conscritps is a full blob, with 2 priests, 2 commisars, 2 officers and 2 psykers giving them buffs. But with that much investment, they are by no means cheap... I say two as Guard characters are laughably easy to kill; I fight and play as Guard and they are easy targets to snipers.

Can someone give me a credible and clear reason why they think conscripts are the most over powered unit in the game? I see gaunts to be much better in just about every way but I never hear people complaining my gaunts are OP when I bring 120 of them on the table. (Yes I do have quite a bit of them.... I was a 3rd edition swarmer and never gave it up over the years).

My Conscripts unit. A patrol Detachment with a Skitarii Company Commander, Enginseer Commissar and thirty Tech-Thralls as the Conscripts. Points total is 150. The end plan is to add these to three units of Tempestus Scions and a Tempestor Prime along with Greyfax to make a 500 point Battalion Detachment that will combine with a 1350 point gun line.

Yoda79 wrote:
I
Tip : dragoons we talked about extensivelly prior of codex . I believe they need to be in units of 2. And since you ll be taking them up field i suggest detachments like.

I really think the unit should have at least 3 Dragoons in order to be versatile enough to use the +2 in melee stratagem. I wouldnt use a CP on a 2 Dragoon unit. On a 3 Dragoon unit, I certainly would.

Valid yes issues though. Space and charges are hard with 3 dragoons i understand what you say and i agree but we have talked about it.decide id like also balistarii on large groups and generally with current gems all skitarii wouod benefit from larger groups but lets not forget roles. What you plan to do with 3 dragoons 204 points that two wont do. Cause so far if played stygia units of two are better for defence screener obj cap less as assault than 3 but...even if know you gonna assault the each game no matter what new question rises. Why dragoons then. Their multi role is the key and cheapish points. If you take 2"3 grouos then the investment need to be commpared to other options.

 Tsol wrote:

 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:
This may sounds contentious, but I want to explore some use of Rangers + Arc Rifle. It's not great, but for 4 points a Str 6, AP -1 and D3 damage on vehicle, on a 40pt squad - that ain't bad at all.

Either with Styges as a way to help soften transports as they hurtle towards your screens, or with Lucius as something to DS in and put some pressure on light armour if needs be. Hell, they're something effective against MEQ infantry, so you can feel you're getting some mileage out of them aside from being a unit of martyrs...

You are not wrong on the rangers and Arc Rifle. The Ark rifle is an awesome weapon. Its just garbage at hurting vehicles. Use it on medium and light infantry. If I don't run my rangers with snipers, I always give them arcs.


That being said, I keep seeing this all over the place that conscripts are borken. And I don't know why; there are four Imperial soup lists and two IG players other than myself who play in our local casual and in our competitive local tournies. And in no game have they ever seemed broken. Its not their base stat as a sometimes Ork player and often Nid player, (I use grots and guants as my screens) their costs are about what they should be, and their moral is not the issue as Orks and Nids have better moral handling (nids being wholly fearless). So I assume it must be the orders of FRFSRF, but even then in the games I see and play in, their Crap BS is not particularly useful. Just useful enough to cause damage to some models due to sheer volly fire. Which is what they are supposed to do.

The most difficult thing I can imagine for conscritps is a full blob, with 2 priests, 2 commisars, 2 officers and 2 psykers giving them buffs. But with that much investment, they are by no means cheap... I say two as Guard characters are laughably easy to kill; I fight and play as Guard and they are easy targets to snipers.

Can someone give me a credible and clear reason why they think conscripts are the most over powered unit in the game? I see gaunts to be much better in just about every way but I never hear people complaining my gaunts are OP when I bring 120 of them on the table. (Yes I do have quite a bit of them.... I was a 3rd edition swarmer and never gave it up over the years).

it's a combination of things. with commissars and 200 conscripts no body can really deal enough damage to physically remove you from the board enough to physically get to the objectives.

but it's not just the guard and conscripts themselves it's the wyverns with stormshard mortars and manticores with the stormeagle rockets these can be placed out of line of site and bombard a gunline an dyou can't physically move thanks to the giant blob to a place where you can actually attack them, you can't deestrike in thanks to the giant blob and if the stormshard mortars don't kill you theres 200 guard on the table doing FRFSRF.

I think removing the out of line of site of the stormshard mortar and stormeagle rockets would go a long way to removing this feeling of brokenness.

at least this is how it's been described to me by the players i've run into who play against it. in my area we have a handful of guard players and two are mechanized cadian and one is a mostly deepstrike scions army backed up with leman russses.

Yoda79 wrote:
Valid yes issues though. Space and charges are hard with 3 dragoons i understand what you say and i agree but we have talked about it.decide id like also balistarii on large groups and generally with current gems all skitarii wouod benefit from larger groups but lets not forget roles. What you plan to do with 3 dragoons 204 points that two wont do. Cause so far if played stygia units of two are better for defence screener obj cap less as assault than 3 but...even if know you gonna assault the each game no matter what new question rises. Why dragoons then. Their multi role is the key and cheapish points. If you take 2"3 grouos then the investment need to be commpared to other options.

Well I have been toying around with an idea like this:
Mars Spearhead: Cawl, 4 Dakkastelans, 10 Infiltrators, 2 Icarus Onager; Stygies Battalion: 2 Enginseer, 3 Vanguard; Stygies Outrider: Enginseer, Dragoon, Dragoon, 3 Dragoons.
So we got 8 CP. Now whats important is is the pressure one can make turn one. Ill have 3 Vanguard troops and 2 lonely Dragoons for screening, the big Dragoon unit in reserve. Possible to screen with it as well to deploy it very offensively. 3 Dragoons with Stratagem to explode the Tasers should be enough to kill a Razorback on the Charge. 2 wont do it. Dropping INfiltrators with wrath of mars can clear the way with support of dakkastelans. This investement might be too large, I can see that. But a 3 pack of Dragoons is able to attack transports and lets say mid-heavy tanks while 2 wont cut it. There are a hell of a lot of Rhinos und Razorbacks on the table atm and Dragoons, thanks to stratagems and -1Ap are finally able not only to harrass but to kill them and of curse pile into something that is standing by.
The question is if this would be a viable strategy or if it would be enough to go a little lighter on dragoons to save up points.

"Played a game with new Ad Mech woooooow!! So impressed. Bat rep hitting YouTube in a few days #wh40k" - InControl (aka guy who got 1st with WarCon on ... War Con >_> Suspiiiiiicious)

Anyway, that's a good sign, right?

The guy is an amazing player tactically. For example, he beat a Daemon summoning list by moving Biovores, so they would miss more and showered the enemy summoners with mines. Not a single unit was summoned until like turn 4. 1000 vs 2000 army. Pretty good

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
"Played a game with new Ad Mech woooooow!! So impressed. Bat rep hitting YouTube in a few days #wh40k" - InControl (aka guy who got 1st with WarCon on ... War Con >_> Suspiiiiiicious)

Anyway, that's a good sign, right?

The guy is an amazing player tactically. For example, he beat a Daemon summoning list by moving Biovores, so they would miss more and showered the enemy summoners with mines. Not a single unit was summoned until like turn 4. 1000 vs 2000 army. Pretty good

Great player and cool dude. I am keen to see what he did there.

Ok my advice. You dont need so many. Stygia is a dogma you use if you dont know what you want inflitrate vs each enemy. That said id make it.
1) low anti heavy armor pen. Thats why we going for neutron onagers. Icarus you wont need and if you really face a superior air use gem to buff +2 neutronagers and kill them. Even 4+ reroll with Cawl is enough. No need icarus with mars.
2) if you going to use 10 inflitr. Then id suggest an hq with omnic mask. So my stygia would be outrider 1*2-2 dragoons 1 balistarii 1 balistarii within stygia you can keep the 2 balistarii as screener same as dragoon. Or just use 1*3 dragoon single with out outrider.
3) Graia battalion is better and use 2* rangers 1* vanguard. Tpd grai warlord can take +1 cp and you troops screener can even deny pshych. Do not forget the exploding gem on defensive balistarii.
4) since you gonna land 10 inflitrators team them up with the omnicient mask tpd and the 1*3 dragoon unit and get advantage of the canticles.

I where you i would create a brigade since you got all units that you need. Even if you have to run the dragoons by foot adding 1 tpd stygia with mask and dragoons. 13 cp would do the plan better.

I havent calc the points but seems more comoetitive since even if you spamm 2 command for wrath all turns only being abke to do so is immence.

5) As you have it Mars spearhad stygia outrider Graia batt. With 1 dominus 1* engiseer. Tpd +1 cp warlord total 9 cp -2 for inflitrate tpd and dragoons 7 for use. Im afraid as iv said focused plans work better in our ad mech since all our options inside gems.

Mars with 2* bare battalions will net 10 cp only use wrath and walk dragoons would perform better and more competitive. Take 2 units infiltrators. Or 1 tech priest aux lucius for deep strike buff if need. Cawl with only so few heavies not worth it . And to be honest where you gonna spend th cps?? Wrath inflitrate rerolls buffing skitarii? Its designed not to be able to do much thats why it sucks. One unitmcan get the gem / phase and large units we cant have wince we dont have cheap ones to build detachments. Im afraid 2* battalions 300 points each is mandqtory so -600 points then build a plan with 1400.

1. Sounds about right. I am all in favor of Neutrons but in this case there was a slight points issue since we only play 1850.
2. Yes I am on your side when it comes to the omniscient mask. Though I wouldnt put it on a TPD but a (if he has to be) dropping Enginseer. A dropping TPD is a huge problem. Yes he gives rerolling 1s but what are CPs and Canticles for? He will die rather quicky depenidng on the enemy.
3. Graia as a screen is better against first turn charges and psychic, very true. The 1 CP is a great thing to have and might be more valuable in this list. Sad that we cant have two Arcanas
4. Brigade sounds nice but its way too expensive points wise and plus there goes the flexibility.
5. As stated, no 2 Arcana Mechanicum. But it kept me thinking if the dropping mask is worth it for "just" 10 infiltrators and 2 dragoons in range. there are canticles as well.
6. So few heavies? Since we need rerolls on our heavies and Cawl is only 115 points more than a TPD I dont see anys reason to change that. But yeah, wrath of mars for Kastelans and Infiltrators (so potentially 4 CP gone), 1 CP for Dakkastelans to change protocol, depending on the situation maybe paying 1 CP for not getting -1 cause they moved, stygies
drops 2, +1 or +2 for skitarii in melee and/or shooting which are another 1-3 CP, deny the witch,...there are so many ways to burn through CPs^^