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Well that's highly situational as well as there are plenty of transports coming at you and I'm sure some will make it to you. And the table should have a lot of LoS blocking terrain for a good 8th game.
Also this assumes no Cawl, so the other guy can just ignore them as they don't do nearly as much without Cawl

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Either way, seems like a bad gimmick that a good player would exploit through charge/pile in shananigans. Like hiding behind the transport/terrain and charging so you don't have the LoS

Yep. Really isn't worth deviating from the good Forge Worlds just to get a boosted Overwatch. That is too much like planning to fail and let the opponent get close. I'd rather go Mars and Stygies and take the fight to the opponent.

And yea, charging from behind a tank is rude stuff. You also can just charge in with a tank and hope it survives and locks those Kastelans up, so the melee unit can get in there and do work.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Either way, seems like a bad gimmick that a good player would exploit through charge/pile in shananigans. Like hiding behind the transport/terrain and charging so you don't have the LoS

Yep. Really isn't worth deviating from the good Forge Worlds just to get a boosted Overwatch. That is too much like planning to fail and let the opponent get close. I'd rather go Mars and Stygies and take the fight to the opponent.

And yea, charging from behind a tank is rude stuff. You also can just charge in with a tank and hope it survives and locks those Kastelans up, so the melee unit can get in there and do work.

Wait, why is that rude xD
I'd say that's really smart :p
I try to do the no LoS charges whenever I can, they're great.
"Oh no, necron Immortal overwatch. Oh how convenient, I have this Slaanesh Herald that can just stand in this corner and charge in with no overwatch"

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Either way, seems like a bad gimmick that a good player would exploit through charge/pile in shananigans. Like hiding behind the transport/terrain and charging so you don't have the LoS

Yep. Really isn't worth deviating from the good Forge Worlds just to get a boosted Overwatch. That is too much like planning to fail and let the opponent get close. I'd rather go Mars and Stygies and take the fight to the opponent.

And yea, charging from behind a tank is rude stuff. You also can just charge in with a tank and hope it survives and locks those Kastelans up, so the melee unit can get in there and do work.

Wait, why is that rude xD
I'd say that's really smart :p
I try to do the no LoS charges whenever I can, they're great.
"Oh no, necron Immortal overwatch. Oh how convenient, I have this Slaanesh Herald that can just stand in this corner and charge in with no overwatch"

The idea that you need LoS on someone who will be running at you seems like a rules oversight. It is a smart tactic, but to me feels not in the spirit of the game.

Also, InControl pretty much said Mars + Stygie + Lucius for the bomb auxilary
So yeah, pretty much:
Cawl, 3x5 vanilla rangers (better than vanguard for screen), 6 dakkastelan and datasmith(huh) - MARS
2 enginseers, 3x5 rangers (2 snipers), 2 neutron Onagers - Stygie
20 Priests Auxilary


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I disagree. It has been confirmed multiple times that no LoS charges are a thing and a tactical decision. It goes hand in hand with charging out of flamer range to avoid the flamers.

gendoikari87 wrote:
Certain other silly people think tactical marines are gak. That's silly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The tactical marine is gws bread and butter they will never be gak. They may not. E amazing but they will never be gak. Tac squads start struggling marines get a new codex that's how gw works

Quit saying Tactical Marines are worth anything. Any Marine player worth their stuff could tell you how bad they are. They're garbage. They could be 12 points and I'd still take Scouts over them. They could be the same price and I'd still take Scouts solely for deployment and equipment options.

You didn't even know about Paladins > Grey Knight Terminators. Why would we listen to you on Tactical Marines, when we got Marine players here (myself included) that can tell you every single thing wrong with them?

You can charge from behind the transport but charging the the transport itself is risky until the character charges in because even hitting on 5 and wounding on 5 that's still 9.33 unsaved wounds average so something like a rhino would likely not make it if it has a wound or two on it.

If you really wanted to make this work go a marine faction with re rolls to charge on the warlord and stick them behind a rhino or two that isn't charging or charges after the commander. Then stick a hammer on him


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
Certain other silly people think tactical marines are gak. That's silly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The tactical marine is gws bread and butter they will never be gak. They may not. E amazing but they will never be gak. Tac squads start struggling marines get a new codex that's how gw works

Quit saying Tactical Marines are worth anything. Any Marine player worth their stuff could tell you how bad they are. They're garbage. They could be 12 points and I'd still take Scouts over them. They could be the same price and I'd still take Scouts solely for deployment and equipment options.

You didn't even know about Paladins > Grey Knight Terminators. Why would we listen to you on Tactical Marines, when we got Marine players here (myself included) that can tell you every single thing wrong with them?

dude gw bases the game around the basic marine. It will never be gak or amazing. It will always be the bog standard unit by which everything is measured because they have to be good enough to always take while not being so good you won't take other things. That's how gw operates.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Also, InControl pretty much said Mars + Stygie + Lucius for the bomb auxilary
So yeah, pretty much:
Cawl, 3x5 vanilla rangers (better than vanguard for screen), 6 dakkastelan and datasmith(huh) - MARS
2 enginseers, 3x5 rangers (2 snipers), 2 neutron Onagers - Stygie
20 Priests Auxilary


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I disagree. It has been confirmed multiple times that no LoS charges are a thing and a tactical decision. It goes hand in hand with charging out of flamer range to avoid the flamers.

Feel free to disagree, but it is clearly a mechanics oversight. The range of flamers was not an oversight - it was meant to make the charge more risk/reward, plus flamers have short range and always have. But are you telling me that a guy running at you from behind a tank can't be shot because he started out behind a tank? That is dumb and is 100% because of the timing when Overwatch triggers, not because it makes any sense.

Also, as for the InControl thing - why? Why bring two Battalions? No Dragoons? Priests Auxiliary!? Wtf is this?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
Certain other silly people think tactical marines are gak. That's silly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The tactical marine is gws bread and butter they will never be gak. They may not. E amazing but they will never be gak. Tac squads start struggling marines get a new codex that's how gw works

Quit saying Tactical Marines are worth anything. Any Marine player worth their stuff could tell you how bad they are. They're garbage. They could be 12 points and I'd still take Scouts over them. They could be the same price and I'd still take Scouts solely for deployment and equipment options.

You didn't even know about Paladins > Grey Knight Terminators. Why would we listen to you on Tactical Marines, when we got Marine players here (myself included) that can tell you every single thing wrong with them?

Ignore him. He pretty much always gives awful advice.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Also, InControl pretty much said Mars + Stygie + Lucius for the bomb auxilary
So yeah, pretty much:
Cawl, 3x5 vanilla rangers (better than vanguard for screen), 6 dakkastelan and datasmith(huh) - MARS
2 enginseers, 3x5 rangers (2 snipers), 2 neutron Onagers - Stygie
20 Priests Auxilary


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I disagree. It has been confirmed multiple times that no LoS charges are a thing and a tactical decision. It goes hand in hand with charging out of flamer range to avoid the flamers.

makes a pretty visual. Character leaping out from behind a transport into a unit

/shrug
It is the first list he made on the fly I think

Either way, would you actually complain about the no LoS charge? It is RAW and RAI as confirmed by GW and FLG multiple times

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
/shrug
It is the first list he made on the fly I think

Either way, would you actually complain about the no LoS charge? It is RAW and RAI as confirmed by GW and FLG multiple times

I wouldn't in game. It is just my personal opinion that it isn't in the spirit of the game. It is clearly RAW and I am not sure it is RAI, but it doesn't mean I won't honor it. Just part of the abstract nature of a game.

And my first go-to list was more put-together than that! Has some weird choices, for sure.

I imagine that charge as a dude coming out of nowhere and you not reacting in time.

Also it was not the full list as it is 1876 pts only. I think it was off the top of his head so he maybe forgot some dragoons and stuff

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Also, InControl pretty much said Mars + Stygie + Lucius for the bomb auxilary
So yeah, pretty much:
Cawl, 3x5 vanilla rangers (better than vanguard for screen), 6 dakkastelan and datasmith(huh) - MARS
2 enginseers, 3x5 rangers (2 snipers), 2 neutron Onagers - Stygie
20 Priests Auxilary.

Hmm while I do like that build, it's a 4 cp build. The first is a patrol detachment, one HQ, the second is battalion, third is aux. that's a net gain of two, minus one to deepstrike the priests. I think I'll need more cp than that in my armies, and the list doesn't have room for another HQ. Could drop the data smith for a tech priest, he may have thought datasmiths were HQ.

Also, no dragoons? Surprised tbh.

How's he getting 2 battalion with only 3 total HQ?

And you lose a CP for the auxiliary just to spend more CP for the priests drop to have it be lucius vs stygie?

First one is supposed to have an enginseer I think.

SilverAlien wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Also, InControl pretty much said Mars + Stygie + Lucius for the bomb auxilary
So yeah, pretty much:
Cawl, 3x5 vanilla rangers (better than vanguard for screen), 6 dakkastelan and datasmith(huh) - MARS
2 enginseers, 3x5 rangers (2 snipers), 2 neutron Onagers - Stygie
20 Priests Auxilary.

Hmm while I do like that build, it's a 4 cp build. The first is a patrol detachment, one HQ, the second is battalion, third is aux. that's a net gain of two, minus one to deepstrike the priests. I think I'll need more cp than that in my armies, and the list doesn't have room for another HQ. Could drop the data smith for a tech priest, he may have thought datasmiths were HQ.

Also, no dragoons? Surprised tbh.

That explains my thought as well. So base 3+0 Patrol +3 Battalion, -1 auxiliary. Thats 5 CP -1 to deepstrike using the lucius stratagem?

Edit: Ah add another enginseer
2 battalions + base = 9 starting cp -1 auxiliary -1 deepstrike leaving you with 7

March up the board with Cawl and Robots to use wrath of mars to take out a bunch of stuff? Onagers focus on their big stuff. would be annoying trying to keep track of which rangers are in which groups unless painted differently

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
I imagine that charge as a dude coming out of nowhere and you not reacting in time.

Also it was not the full list as it is 1876 pts only. I think it was off the top of his head so he maybe forgot some dragoons and stuff

I think your math may be wrong, that's a roughly 2000 point build. If he meant 2 arquebus total rather than 2 per unit, that's closer to your total though.

SilverAlien wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
I imagine that charge as a dude coming out of nowhere and you not reacting in time.

Also it was not the full list as it is 1876 pts only. I think it was off the top of his head so he maybe forgot some dragoons and stuff

I think your math may be wrong, that's a roughly 2000 point build. If he meant 2 arquebus total rather than 2 per unit, that's closer to your total though.

Thats a lot of sniper rifles and points if hes putting 2 arquebues in each of those 6 ranger squads

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
I imagine that charge as a dude coming out of nowhere and you not reacting in time.

Also it was not the full list as it is 1876 pts only. I think it was off the top of his head so he maybe forgot some dragoons and stuff

For reference, here is my latest list that I am looking to test post-Codex, pre-FAQ. Just need to built/paint 2 more Fulgurites, a Dragoon, and an Enginseer. By then, the FAQ will probably be out and mess me all sorts of up (I hope), in that I will need to build and paint some Destroyers! ...wishful thinking, I know.

Mars & Stygies - Competitive Build


Simple, straight-forward and not spread too thin across three detachments. Focused on just the two best. If I don't get first turn, I just deploy the Fulgurites conservatively or as near as I can behind LoS-blocking terrain.

Whatever, it doesn't seem like the correct list anyway. Here's my corrected list

Cawl, 3x5 snipers, 6 dakkastelans, datasmith, enginseer
Dominus, enginseer, 3x5 rangers, 2 neutrons
20 priests

So, I was thinking, we keep focusing on the new priests as our anti infantry, but all the strong horde armies rely on characters, be in changling, the cheap IG HQs, assassins, or even orks with their buffing units.

A unit of rangers with two arquebus went down 10 points, and with Stygies is quite a bit tougher to shoot down. Can even hold one back to infiltrate to make sure you can get LoS.

I'm going to go back to a sniper heavier build like I used for a bit and see what happens. I think three units with 6 rifles total might be a much better investment overall.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
I imagine that charge as a dude coming out of nowhere and you not reacting in time.

Also it was not the full list as it is 1876 pts only. I think it was off the top of his head so he maybe forgot some dragoons and stuff

For reference, here is my latest list that I am looking to test post-Codex, pre-FAQ. Just need to built/paint 2 more Fulgurites, a Dragoon, and an Enginseer. By then, the FAQ will probably be out and mess me all sorts of up (I hope), in that I will need to build and paint some Destroyers! ...wishful thinking, I know.

Mars & Stygies - Competitive Build

Spoiler:

Mars Spearhead Detachment +1 CP

HQ:
Belisarius Cawl
[250]

Heavy:
(6) Kastelan Robots
Triple Phosphor
[660]

Onager Dunecrawler
Neutron Laser & CHS
[140]

Onager Dunecrawler
Neutron Laser & CHS
[140]

Onager Dunecrawler
Icarus Array
[130]

[1320]

Stygies Battalion +3 CP

HQ:
Enginseer
Autocaduceus or Raiment
[52]

Elites:
(12) Fulgurite Priests
[204]

Troops:
(5) Vanguard
2x Arc Rifles
[52]

(5) Vanguard
2x Arc Rifles
[52]

(5) Rangers
2x Arc Rifles
[48]

Fast Attack:
(2) Sydonian Dragoon
[136]

(2) Sydonian Dragoon
[136]

[680]

[2000]

7 CP Total
- 1 for Binharic
- 2 for Wrath
- 1 for Infiltrate
- 3 to tinker with!

Simple, straight-forward and not spread too thin across three detachments. Focused on just the two best. If I don't get first turn, I just deploy the Fulgurites conservatively or as near as I can behind LoS-blocking terrain.

''
You are missing your second HQ in your batallion


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SilverAlien wrote:
So, I was thinking, we keep focusing on the new priests as our anti infantry, but all the strong horde armies rely on characters, be in changling, the cheap IG HQs, assassins, or even orks with their buffing units.

A unit of rangers with two arquebus went down 10 points, and with Stygies is quite a bit tougher to shoot down. Can even hold one back to infiltrate to make sure you can get LoS.

I'm going to go back to a sniper heavier build like I used for a bit and see what happens. I think three units with 6 rifles total might be a much better investment overall.

My snipers fail to wound a lot in my experience, volume of fire seems to be king when it comes to getting wounds through

SilverAlien wrote:
So, I was thinking, we keep focusing on the new priests as our anti infantry, but all the strong horde armies rely on characters, be in changling, the cheap IG HQs, assassins, or even orks with their buffing units.

A unit of rangers with two arquebus went down 10 points, and with Stygies is quite a bit tougher to shoot down. Can even hold one back to infiltrate to make sure you can get LoS.

I'm going to go back to a sniper heavier build like I used for a bit and see what happens. I think three units with 6 rifles total might be a much better investment overall.

Have you used them? They seem so great in theory, but I have never had them work out. We have such a great Sniper rifle too! The high strength and AP -2 is fantastic and d3 damage with a possible mortal wound is great. Usually I just laugh as they miss and/or fail to wound all game, though. Such a disappointment.

Though that is all anecdotal. Maybe they will work for you! Bring enough and park a TPD nearby and you might see results. Knocking out Weirdboyz, Commissars, and the Changeling would be major boons to our strategy.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Whatever, it doesn't seem like the correct list anyway. Here's my corrected list

Cawl, 3x5 snipers, 6 dakkastelans, datasmith, enginseer
Dominus, enginseer, 3x5 rangers, 2 neutrons
20 priests

I keep getting about 100 points over for this build.

Detachment one is 1284 points
Detachment two is 577 plus whatever the cognis heavy stubbers cost now
Detachment three is 240

That's 2101 points

Jaynen wrote:

You are missing your second HQ in your batallion

I was wondering how I suddenly had points for four Dragoons when my list had three originally!

Revised.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SilverAlien wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Whatever, it doesn't seem like the correct list anyway. Here's my corrected list

Cawl, 3x5 snipers, 6 dakkastelans, datasmith, enginseer
Dominus, enginseer, 3x5 rangers, 2 neutrons
20 priests

I keep getting about 100 points over for this build.

Detachment one is 1284 points
Detachment two is 577 plus whatever the cognis heavy stubbers cost now
Detachment three is 240

That's 2101 points

The Priests are either 280 or 340. Either way, it is way over.

I mean, I didn't check the list. I just wrote what he wrote :p

Vanilla Rangers being more popular, I think they need a catchy name. Sadly, I can't think of anything as good as "Dakkastelan" or "Blandguard".

Relevant to thread - I have acquired Mechanicus and will start writing lists when my Codex arrived. With 8th, is blandguard still a reasonable troops choice?

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Have you used them? They seem so great in theory, but I have never had them work out. We have such a great Sniper rifle too! The high strength and AP -2 is fantastic and d3 damage with a possible mortal wound is great. Usually I just laugh as they miss and/or fail to wound all game, though. Such a disappointment.

Though that is all anecdotal. Maybe they will work for you! Bring enough and park a TPD nearby and you might see results. Knocking out Weirdboyz, Commissars, and the Changeling would be major boons to our strategy.

They were how I managed to win a couple games vs conscript spam until my opponent begin targeting them early and avoiding LoS more. But the point drop makes them a less pricey investment, Stygies makes it much harder for guard in particular to shoot them down (also orks if they bring guns), and the infiltration stratagem can be used if I want to make sure I can get LoS on the enemy. Not to mention our HQ situation has been improved, so multiple cheapish (90 isn't bad for a troops choice) troops are more useful for filling out battalions.

Actually... dragoons might be the better choice for this now? With the BS boosting stratagem they can move and hit on a 2+ with their rifles, two shots each, 63 points per model. Plus, with Stygies, they are absurdly resistant to return fire. Gonna have to experiment and see.

 Verviedi wrote:
Vanilla Rangers being more popular, I think they need a catchy name. Sadly, I can't think of anything as good as "Dakkastelan" or "Blandguard".

Relevant to thread - I have acquired Mechanicus and will start writing lists when my Codex arrived. With 8th, is blandguard still a reasonable troops choice?

Barebones vanguard are perfectly fine, though currently barebones rangers are better. Basic Vanguard don't really have much offensive potential atm compared to last edition. They are basically just bodies on the field, and rangers do that better right now. Vanguard are a little better at actually hurting anything that charges them, between better overwatch and better CC, but to such a marginal degree that they aren't really worth it.

If anything, we need something for 5 Rangers with 2 Snipers. Fivesonic RangerBus or something

 Verviedi wrote:
Vanilla Rangers being more popular, I think they need a catchy name. Sadly, I can't think of anything as good as "Dakkastelan" or "Blandguard".

Relevant to thread - I have acquired Mechanicus and will start writing lists when my Codex arrived. With 8th, is blandguard still a reasonable troops choice?

Isn't it maddening? I can't think of anything catchy for it!

And yea, Blandguard are still viable. Given the price drop, I am even thinking of tossing Arc Rifles on them, just because. If you are pressed for points though, it is a good place to start cutting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
If anything, we need something for 5 Rangers with 2 Snipers. Fivesonic RangerBus or something

Snipetarii?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SilverAlien wrote:

They were how I managed to win a couple games vs conscript spam until my opponent begin targeting them early and avoiding LoS more. But the point drop makes them a less pricey investment, Stygies makes it much harder for guard in particular to shoot them down (also orks if they bring guns), and the infiltration stratagem can be used if I want to make sure I can get LoS on the enemy. Not to mention our HQ situation has been improved, so multiple cheapish (90 isn't bad for a troops choice) troops are more useful for filling out battalions.

Actually... dragoons might be the better choice for this now? With the BS boosting stratagem they can move and hit on a 2+ with their rifles, two shots each, 63 points per model. Plus, with Stygies, they are absurdly resistant to return fire. Gonna have to experiment and see.

The Jezzail is still garbage. So yea, go for the Arquebus if you want to go Snipers.