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I definarly think they should have given us tables of 6 not of 3.

I think some of the powers manage to be useful and interesting enough. The movement ones like twilight path and warp time and teleports like gate of infinity and da jump let you reposition in interesting and useful ways.

The ynarri spell that lets you soulburst is also really versatile.

Dominate and treason of tzeentch can also have nasty effects. Treason in particular can really mess up your opponent's plans.

The spells are useful, but limited in scope. I'm fine with it. It reigns in the crazyness of 7th ed. Powers open up interesting new tactical situations when you can get +1 to hit, or move a second time, etc, but don't dominate the game.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
8th Edition - The Bland and Flavorless

Some people like vanilla, even more after years of ultra tutti-fruty recharged with chocolate syrup and caramel sprinkles. After all, you can always add more flavour after

I would describe 7th as more turd flavored than anything else.

As fun as dozens of complicated powers and convoluted warp charge nonsense was, this is certainly a lot better.

Smite is good. It's simple, it's effective, it's scary. And several units modify it on a sliding scale of power (Like Aspiring Sorcerers or Zoanthropes), making it an effective 'baseline' to modify into any 'generic psychic shooting attack'.

The buffs are good. They're simple, they're effective, they're potent. Tagging an entire unit to have +1 to hit or wound, count as being in cover, or get 5+ FnP can be devastating. Psykers being reliable as buff-bots is certainly more favorable than rolling on a big random chart and hoping you get something useful.

The other stuff is good. Teleporting or moving units around the battlefield, debuffing enemies, making extra psychic shooting attacks other than Smite (2-spell Chaos Sorcerers potentially dealing 9 Mortal Wounds in one phase by casting Smite and Infernal Gaze? Ouch!). All of it's pretty nasty.

Sure it may not be this big fancy ordeal anymore, and sure there's not paragraphs of descriptive text and tons of little details and complex rules for every single spell, but those aren't necessary. Honestly, this is going to make things much less of a headache. And what's more, we're probably getting more in the proper codices later on anyway.

Is there a specific reason you are against toning down the current psychic phase? They will flesh out the psychic powers in time, have patience.

 supreme overlord wrote:
I've now seen 4 different people complain about invisibility... so wouldnt we have been better off if they would have kept the tables and just taken that power out? I built a seer council for my eldar that are now utterly pointless as max I can even bring is 3 without becoming redundant.

Yes there were some powers that needed to go, invis being one of them, but they didnt need to gut the tables down to 1 spell plus half tables per army.

They should have made 5 tables: melee, ranged, durability, movement, and damage. 3 powers each. Keep the limit of 1 power attempt per phase but make it so casters can sacrafice a cast to repeat a spell. IE I cast Prescience with Ahriman I can still cast it with my other Sorcerers that are too far away from the enemy so cant cast smite. But lose a cast in the process.

Yeah these are incredibly boring. Even AoS, which replaced FB's extremely diverse and tactical magic phase with the barely interactive system we see here, was at least willing to put individually interesting spells with slightly more complex effects in. Hardly any of that here.

 Karoline Dianne wrote:

Smite is good. It's simple, it's effective, it's scary. And several units modify it on a sliding scale of power (Like Aspiring Sorcerers or Zoanthropes), making it an effective 'baseline' to modify into any 'generic psychic shooting attack'.

Smite is gak. The range is too short to be effective for anything and you cant target so im going to have to burn it on trash before i can ever use it against the thing i would actually want to use it on.

 Karoline Dianne wrote:
The other stuff is good. Teleporting or moving units around the battlefield, debuffing enemies, making extra psychic shooting attacks other than Smite (2-spell Chaos Sorcerers potentially dealing 9 Mortal Wounds in one phase by casting Smite and Infernal Gaze? Ouch!). All of it's pretty nasty.

You realize all those spells are limited to single casts right? If you dont get it off you dont get the spell. Smite is the only spell that cna be cast multiple times your not going ro be moving units your going to move a unit per turn if you dont fail the cast. As for the 9 wounds per turn that will almost never happen.

 Karoline Dianne wrote:
Sure it may not be this big fancy ordeal anymore, and sure there's not paragraphs of descriptive text and tons of little details and complex rules for every single spell, but those aren't necessary. Honestly, this is going to make things much less of a headache. And what's more, we're probably getting more in the proper codices later on anyway.

Its not about being big and fancy, its about having the versatility that was the benefit of having a Sorcerer. Now there more expensive less reliable and have almost no versatility. What upgrades.

I play Thousand Sons and there is literally no reason to bring anyone other then Ahriman. Magnus is a giant target now that will die in 2 turns maybe 3 turns, Exalted Sorcerers do the exact same thing as Ahriman except 1 less spell. The only other useful charcters that im ALLOWED to take to be a thousand sons army are 150 points. The only way i will ha e a chance at winng any game is if i bring 3 cultists/Tzzangors for every non Cultist/Tzzangor model.




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Lavy wrote:
They will flesh out the psychic powers in time, have patience.

I heard this same thing 5 years years ago when the CSM codex came out. No ive had enough patience.

 Marmatag wrote:
Actually the biggest blow to Psykers in general is Psychic Focus, which comes into play for Matched Play games.

It reads that you cannot ATTEMPT to cast a power more than once, regardless of how many psykers know this power.

This means, you have 3 librarius Psykers, you can only attempt to manifest null zone ONCE per turn. Not once per psyker - once OVERALL. So if Psyker A, B, and C know the same power, and A attempts and fails, B & C cannot cast that power this turn.

The only power you can attempt more than once is Smite.

Cheers, enjoy

I just dug through the leaks to find that. I was really hoping you'd misread it. Nope.

WTF, GW??? My brand new Thousand Sons get one go at each spell, then a million smites. Gee, thanks! At least any Chaos Character can summon demons now... I need more demons.

I'm starting to suspect that Narrative play with points may become a thing.

1. So you see no value in multiple Smites? You will do an average of 2 mortal wounds 5/6 attempts. That will decimate most non-horde units. You do lose control of what you get to target, granted, because it happens before movement, which means opponent will always get to choose which are the closest units 90% of the time. For any CC that the opponent starts with a Psyker you will get two "free" mortal wounds on the offenders before even having to make a "fall back or fight" choice. Properly used Smites will be making the difference in morale checks. 18" range is average for a weapon, except you only have to make one roll, and may be countered.

2. Unless you know some way for a single unit to be in multiple places at once, having the option of using psychic abilities in the most needed spots seems better than just having all your eggs in one basket, one that is quite easily countered.

3. Being Thousand Sons, you will most likely have more Psykers on the board than your opponent, meaning they have to 1) maneuver their Psykers to either stay out of denial range or to stay within denial range of as many of yours as possible, and 2) choose which power to counter. So if they know you have Big Bad Power X , you will most likely get off all Smites until they get to the 1 deny attempt per Psyker limit. They have to choose to deny or not BEFORE you roll the result.

You can choose to take the advantages your army gives you, or not. But complaining about you not choosing to take advantage of an army's strengths or uniqueness is quite silly, simply choose differently...

By itself, the fact that you can't control who you target with Smite makes it pretty much substandard imo. Add to it a short ranged and you're not really getting anything amazing out of the deal.

Yeah you can cast it 83,3% of the time and 8,3% of the time you'll score the D6 wounds but also remember that the more you spam a psychic power the higher your chances of getting Perils are.

But there are not big bad power X at all Hahahaha.
Use more than one sorcerer on chaos is a bad idea.
Also broke most tsons lists since them carry multiple sorcerers or exalted ones. Easily you could find 3 or 4 on an army beside the aspirants.

Now is terrible idea. The funny is that chaos sorcerers are expensive haha.

And smile has a very low range. Don't will allow harm enemies if you left the psyker on a shooty unit.

So beside very specific psyker of certain armies.... Why not put any other hq? They will do more kills and be more flexible.
Also you can put 2 or 3 melee or shooty hq and no problem. Imagine that if a tau commander shoot a weapon, other tau commander can't use the same weapon on this turn.....

Also we can't forget the warp perils xD


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Now psyker phase is a joke. No real reason beside do a thematic army that take psykers

 docdoom77 wrote:
I love it like this. I'm going to enjoy this much simpler, less broken format for as long as it lasts.

Rule wise psychics actually got boost on small point levels with more powers off more reliably. If psychic got nerf that's because of spells but that's not dependant on psychic rules themselves...

Big issue is crappy scalability. The bigger the game, less effect psykers have.

tneva82 wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:
I love it like this. I'm going to enjoy this much simpler, less broken format for as long as it lasts.

Rule wise psychics actually got boost on small point levels with more powers off more reliably. If psychic got nerf that's because of spells but that's not dependant on psychic rules themselves...

Big issue is crappy scalability. The bigger the game, less effect psykers have.

That's what happened in my 3k 8TH Game I played yesterday...no freaking scalability!

KurtAngle2 wrote:
That's what happened in my 3k 8TH Game I played yesterday...no freaking scalability!

Yeah. It's like 2 psykers and after that all others are smite spammers. Okay TECHNICALLY it's scalable in that every psyker can do something but effect diminishes a lot.

I hate unskalable rules. Even 7th ed wasn't truly scalable suffering from same effect though to lesser degree. And that's the major bugbear I have about 2nd ed psychic rules as well as that too was non-scalable.

GW has yet to do good scalable psychic rules that I know off.

 supreme overlord wrote:
I've now seen 4 different people complain about invisibility... so wouldnt we have been better off if they would have kept the tables and just taken that power out? I built a seer council for my eldar that are now utterly pointless as max I can even bring is 3 without becoming redundant.

W already have been there. The 7th edition system was unbalanced, clunky and full of stinkers. The sad thing is that to appeal to psi-spankers, in the codices new powers will come back and we will have broken psionics all over again.
Psi-stuff should give you an edge, not something you base your strategy on. Actually strategy is a big word - is just a deathstar building tool.

You are essentially saying: "I miss deathstars".

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 supreme overlord wrote:
I've now seen 4 different people complain about invisibility... so wouldnt we have been better off if they would have kept the tables and just taken that power out? I built a seer council for my eldar that are now utterly pointless as max I can even bring is 3 without becoming redundant.

W already have been there. The 7th edition system was unbalanced, clunky and full of stinkers. The sad thing is that to appeal to psi-spankers, in the codices new powers will come back and we will have broken psionics all over again.
Psi-stuff should give you an edge, not something you base your strategy on. Actually strategy is a big word - is just a deathstar building tool.

You are essentially saying: "I miss deathstars".

Of course if you were to give 7th ed powers to 8th ed psychic rules in smaller games they would be even MORE broken. 8th ed archieves "balance" mostly by being unscalable and works thus only at bigger point level.

8th is mostly built out of a bunch of little rules that more or less amount to options. Yes. In matched play only you can only cast each power once per turn. Or you could just ignore that limitation among your group. I suggest you do so.


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I know I will be using bits and pieces of different advanced rules. Like the flyers being able to leave the table and other stuff.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 supreme overlord wrote:
I've now seen 4 different people complain about invisibility... so wouldnt we have been better off if they would have kept the tables and just taken that power out? I built a seer council for my eldar that are now utterly pointless as max I can even bring is 3 without becoming redundant.

W already have been there. The 7th edition system was unbalanced, clunky and full of stinkers. The sad thing is that to appeal to psi-spankers, in the codices new powers will come back and we will have broken psionics all over again.
Psi-stuff should give you an edge, not something you base your strategy on. Actually strategy is a big word - is just a deathstar building tool.

You are essentially saying: "I miss deathstars".

umm...no. I am not essentially saying "I miss deathstars" I'm saying a seer council is a completely fluffy way to build an eldar list and now it's pointless. I'm saying I spent money on models that I cannot use now because they dumbed the psychic phase down too much. Don't just assume that because I want to bring psykers and they be useful that I'm WAAC

That's essentially saying that all thousand sons and tzeench players dont care about their armies they were just WAAC.

Grey Knights too. They pay a big premium for being Psykers, and have three powers to cast amongst them.

Pedroig wrote:
1. So you see no value in multiple Smites? You will do an average of 2 mortal wounds 5/6 attempts. That will decimate most non-horde units. You do lose control of what you get to target, granted, because it happens before movement, which means opponent will always get to choose which are the closest units 90% of the time. For any CC that the opponent starts with a Psyker you will get two "free" mortal wounds on the offenders before even having to make a "fall back or fight" choice. Properly used Smites will be making the difference in morale checks. 18" range is average for a weapon, except you only have to make one roll, and may be countered.

First off half of my sorcerers will be embedded in units and will only do 1 mortal wound per turn with them. It would decimate non horde units but your almost never going to use it on non horde units. Smite is borderline useless, here let me put it this way. Imagine you have a unit with a Lascannon but you can only shoot the closest enemy and it has an 18" range. You wont get two "Free" mortal wounds you have to cast it still and you can perils or be denied. The only way to properly use smite is to put a 3 wound Character in CC with an enemy that will most likely kill him in 1 round.

Pedroig wrote:
2. Unless you know some way for a single unit to be in multiple places at once, having the option of using psychic abilities in the most needed spots seems better than just having all your eggs in one basket, one that is quite easily countered.

so buy 3 Sorcerers and never benefit from more then 1 a turn. Sounds like a super strategy. Why not bring 3 units of Terminators and only ever shoot 1 a turn?

Pedroig wrote:
3. Being Thousand Sons, you will most likely have more Psykers on the board than your opponent, meaning they have to 1) maneuver their Psykers to either stay out of denial range or to stay within denial range of as many of yours as possible, and 2) choose which power to counter. So if they know you have Big Bad Power X , you will most likely get off all Smites until they get to the 1 deny attempt per Psyker limit. They have to choose to deny or not BEFORE you roll the result.

Well I'm supposed to have more Psykers, but I wont. They wont have to maneuver gak all they will have to do is keep 1 or 2 large units in front of everything. Choose which power to counter? LMAO TS have a total of 4 options, smite can be countered by 5 PPM units, 2 sorcerers can counter the rest...AMAZING...Big bad power X um you mean Smite, or Smite, or maybe Smite, oh possibly Smite? Yeah and they will let the Smites through and prevent things Like Prescience. If I bring 3 Sorcerers 3 Units of Rubrics and 3 Units of SOT that is a total of 12 Mortal wounds, If there all in range rolling that many Psy Tests is going to result in a much higher chance of Perils.

Pedroig wrote:
You can choose to take the advantages your army gives you, or not. But complaining about you not choosing to take advantage of an army's strengths or uniqueness is quite silly, simply choose differently...

My army has to give me advantages for me to take advantage of first.

Compared to the Infinite wounds BS harlequins were capable Im glad to see these bland rules. Yous should have expected a power drop once they could be chosen instead of rolled randomly.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Grey Knights too. They pay a big premium for being Psykers, and have three powers to cast amongst them.

I know.... as a GK player I'm just praying they fix this with an impending codex

I mean I cannot see taking 12 psykers in 8th, but for your armies.

Eldar -
Guide is good, as good as it always has been. It isn't exciting but re-rolls to hit are always nice, especially on units with lots of shooting like warwalkers.

Doom is good, always has been. But not new or exciting.

Fortune, was a bit nerfed but 5+ FNP is good in this edition so far. SO it isn't bad.

Ynnari-
Gaze - is good, not great, but 1-6 mortal wounds is not terrible.

Ancestors Gaze - is ok. If you have a unit that hits on a 2+ it is a guarantee to hit.

Word of Pheonix looks very good as it gives you extra soulburst, somove twice, shoot twice, fight twice in a turn. No need for a unit to have died. So if you are in combat, fight, trigger a charge into another unit to fight in your own combat phase, seems super good.


Harlequins
-Twilight Pathways - good, double move in a turn is good. An average use of this would have a troupe moving 23" and still be able to charge
-Fog of Dreams - good in an all harlequin list, can add a bit more durability to your harlequins. Not amazing, but not bad
-Mirror of minds - very swingy can be great, can be garbage.


I would say these powers are more interesting than most of what we see get played in 7e.

Invis, re-roll powers.

not super exciting but I think most are pretty cool.

You just won't need 12 psykers maybe 2.




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Pedroig wrote:
[
1. So you see no value in multiple Smites? You will do an average of 2 mortal wounds 5/6 attempts. That will decimate most non-horde units. You do lose control of what you get to target, granted, because it happens before movement, which means opponent will always get to choose which are the closest units 90% of the time. For any CC that the opponent starts with a Psyker you will get two "free" mortal wounds on the offenders before even having to make a "fall back or fight" choice. Properly used Smites will be making the difference in morale checks. 18" range is average for a weapon, except you only have to make one roll, and may be countered.

Ummm...Movement is the first phase followed by Psychic. So 100% of the time you will decide the closest unit, from amongst the options your opponent has given you.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Grey Knights too. They pay a big premium for being Psykers, and have three powers to cast amongst them.

Exactly this.

Also Grey Knights don't get anything special to protect themselves from psychic powers. Shouldn't they have a +1 at least to Deny, or no perils on double 6s?

Basically, the psyker army of space marines is actually weaker at the psychic phase than other space marine armies.

I don't even.

I want Grey Knights to be good, because "KNIGHTS - IN - SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE" is too cool for school. But i'm pretty disappointed :( They could have at least given them ChaosBane, instead of DaemonBane.

I'm generally ok with it, except:

Powers seem limited, with 3 per faction.

For psychic heavy armies, only being able to cast (or, rather, attempt to cast) 3 unique spells besides smite seems pretty limiting.

But........I suppose you want to pick your powers, said powers can't be overly broken (i.e. invisibility).

I think if they had more powers, or brought back generalist disciplines, It would be just fine. But just having 3 to pick from doesn't seem like enough. (for some).

For orks, I'm ok with what I got. Except 'eadbanger, which was, is, and probably forever shall be, garbage.

psychic OPness was a large part of what was wrong with 7th. if they can't figure out a way to balance them i would rather they just be boring and predictable. it was also sort of a way to list tailor as powers were not set so facing a horde lie orks or tyranids... take shriek, and template powers. facin guard aim for all the invisibility. i prefer boring stable and on the list before you know what you are facing.

They went a step too far. Especially since they KNEW what the big offenders were. They could've easily kept the tables, nerfing or removing the big offenders.

There's nothing wrong with the majority of physic powers-it's only a select few that are broken.