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 Marmatag wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Grey Knights too. They pay a big premium for being Psykers, and have three powers to cast amongst them.

Exactly this.

Also Grey Knights don't get anything special to protect themselves from psychic powers. Shouldn't they have a +1 at least to Deny, or no perils on double 6s?

Basically, the psyker army of space marines is actually weaker at the psychic phase than other space marine armies.

I don't even.

I want Grey Knights to be good, because "KNIGHTS - IN - SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE" is too cool for school. But i'm pretty disappointed :( They could have at least given them ChaosBane, instead of DaemonBane.

Cannot agree more.

I wouldn't think units like Ahriman or Scarab Occult were problems in 7th. And they had access to 11 psychic tables (72 powers). Likewise Grey Knights who had multiple psykers but a lot of fixed powers.

Invis deathstars and summoning circus were ITC faves and notorious, however the issues with less common psychic builds were moreso the prolonged bookkeeping and awkward WC mechanics. Also lack of interaction and psychic defense but this hasn't been fixed for armies that can't take psykers.

So far this is the only part of 8th I'm not really impressed by. Seems like something is missing.

also remember psychic defense is completely gone for some armies and limited for many others so it had to be turned down

 JNAProductions wrote:
They went a step too far. Especially since they KNEW what the big offenders were. They could've easily kept the tables, nerfing or removing the big offenders.

There's nothing wrong with the majority of physic powers-it's only a select few that are broken.

Yeah, they definitely went too far. But, this is the base ruleset. Maybe they'll expand in the future.

I'm fine with starting bland at reboot and getting more interesting later.

It would just have been nice to see my factions keep some of their flavor.

Thousand Sons

1) Yes, I forgot majoirty of your Psykers are mini-Psykers, Smite not as powerful, true, but still, you will get off any Smite attempts you make unless the model is the only Psyker within denial range.

2. Denial is not 5+ it has to be higher than whatever you roll, so 6+ at a minimum, and if you take the 12 hit, at least it can't be countered by any "base" Psyker.

3) If you don't want the mortal wounds you are paying for, I'm sure your opponent will take them instead...

8+ cost powers are just way too unreliable to be any good. So you mostly resort to smite only, after your first psyker.

For example: Mirror of minds (8+, Harlequin) has a 24% to do 1 mortal wound. That's a 86% chance to fail! Yes you can continue casting if successful, but then 8% chance for 3 mortal wounds is not what I call reliable or fun in any way.
Compare to smite that has a 66% chance to do d3 mortal wounds and 16% to do d6 mortal wounds. 17% chance to fail.

psychic powers in 7th made some lists broken, i m fine with psyonic being tuned down a lot, and im sure when specific codex will get out, some more powers will be described there.
Maybe now player become more important than the list agaon

 Lance845 wrote:
8th is mostly built out of a bunch of little rules that more or less amount to options. Yes. In matched play only you can only cast each power once per turn. Or you could just ignore that limitation among your group. I suggest you do so.
.

Of course that means psychic powers would be cast even more than in 7th ed so only thing keeping them check would be spell powers. If 7th ed spells were transported here it would be totally broken. Which points to 7th ed psychic issue being with spells rather than core psychic rules


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:
8th is mostly built out of a bunch of little rules that more or less amount to options. Yes. In matched play only you can only cast each power once per turn. Or you could just ignore that limitation among your group. I suggest you do so.
.

Of course that means psychic powers would be cast even more than in 7th ed so only thing keeping them check would be spell powers. If 7th ed spells were transported here it would be totally broken. Which points to 7th ed psychic issue being with spells rather than core psychic rules

I just started building a thousand sons army and must admit that i am disappointed to see the changes to psychic powers. It feels like their idea of balancing is to just take away the flavor that made factions unique. I mean, the thousand sons don't have their own table, but the death guard do? I get they're one of the new armies but come on; many factions got a unique list in the indices, but the legion of sorcerers is left out. For an army that is supposed to be full of psykers, you won't see many sorcerers in a thousand sons list, not one that has a hope of doing well anyway. This new system is excellent for armies that rely on the occassional single psyker for support. But the armies that are reliant on the psychic phase feel so meh now. I've definitely lost some excitement for the thousand sons.

Why are y'all expecting Games Workshop to come up with good and interesting choices for anything tbh?

If the 7th ed psychic power choices were anything to go by (ex: the power difference between telepathy/biomancy and pyromancy), why would this edition have been any better? It's clear the people writing up the psychic powers haven't gotten any (edit: spelling) more of a clue.

7e Psykers were non-scalable due to the amount of Warp Charge needed for each Psyker outpacing the WC you took by taking more psykers. The main offenders were BRB Invisibility (ITC Invisibility was more bearable) and 2++ rerollables (a general recommendation is Invulnerable Saves cannot be improved to greater than 3++). Other than that I felt the WC system was good because it's a risk versus reward system (more power = better chance to succeed but a higher chance to fail). Of course you also had outliers like Magnus being a Cannon for all your Daemons to pour their WC into (note I said Daemons and not Thousand Sons).

My general thought was: 2 Warp Charge per ML, but Psykers can only use their own WC. Psychic powers should not be all-or-nothing. Rather, you have degrees of success, and denial subtracts successes, rather than "I put all my dice in Invisibility and roll 5 successes. Hope you can roll 5 6s to deny."

Really there's a lot they could have done besides doing the AOS simplification route.

See, i dont even mind the AOS way because while there is still the limit of one of each power per turn, warscrolls have unique spells for that model to cast. So its ok to have many spellcasters, since they can all cast their own stuff and aren't sharing a spell pool besides mystic shield and arcane bolt. why can't we have that for 40k? Just seems lazy.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Compared to the Infinite wounds BS harlequins were capable Im glad to see these bland rules. Yous should have expected a power drop once they could be chosen instead of rolled randomly.

They cant be chosen they have to be rolled.

Edit: NM they can be chosen I don't why but whatever.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pedroig wrote:
1) Yes, I forgot majoirty of your Psykers are mini-Psykers, Smite not as powerful, true, but still, you will get off any Smite attempts you make unless the model is the only Psyker within denial range.

That's fine but when I blow up my unit because I periled and lose 3 models on average in rubrics / 2 models in SOT that hurts a lot, and with 12 casts I have a 66% chance of it happening every psychic phase

Pedroig wrote:
2. Denial is not 5+ it has to be higher than whatever you roll, so 6+ at a minimum, and if you take the 12 hit, at least it can't be countered by any "base" Psyker.

They don't have to deny the wounds they can just bring 2 or 3 cheap units to absorb the wounds.

Pedroig wrote:
3) If you don't want the mortal wounds you are paying for, I'm sure your opponent will take them instead...

They will take the wounds on models that are 5 PPM and lose 60 points of models while I lose 100ish per perils.

tneva82 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
8th is mostly built out of a bunch of little rules that more or less amount to options. Yes. In matched play only you can only cast each power once per turn. Or you could just ignore that limitation among your group. I suggest you do so.
.

Of course that means psychic powers would be cast even more than in 7th ed so only thing keeping them check would be spell powers. If 7th ed spells were transported here it would be totally broken. Which points to 7th ed psychic issue being with spells rather than core psychic rules


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:
8th is mostly built out of a bunch of little rules that more or less amount to options. Yes. In matched play only you can only cast each power once per turn. Or you could just ignore that limitation among your group. I suggest you do so.
.

Of course that means psychic powers would be cast even more than in 7th ed so only thing keeping them check would be spell powers. If 7th ed spells were transported here it would be totally broken. Which points to 7th ed psychic issue being with spells rather than core psychic rules

how? how would it be broken? please explain. Just saying something would be "broken" and giving no evidence as to why doesn't justify any argument.

Perils chance is 1/18, so it's pretty low.

I rather enjoyed the idea behind 7th where the more dice you committed, the more likely your success but also your perils.

It created some balance.

 Marmatag wrote:
Perils chance is 1/18, so it's pretty low.

I rather enjoyed the idea behind 7th where the more dice you committed, the more likely your success but also your perils.

It created some balance.

Perils chance is low if you only roll a few times. When you get up to 12 casts per turn your looking at 66% chance. Which is high enough to make me hesitant to field more then 3 Sorcerers total per game.

Thousand Sons get to dish out tons of mortal wounds and have an antimagic screen throughout their entire army to deny enemy psykers. I dunno about you but that seems pretty spiffy to me. None of your Aspiring Sorcerers know anything but Smite, so they aren't bumping elbows with your other spells anyway, and you generally aren't taking more than 2 HQ units in a single list to begin with. So what, your two HQ sorcerers have one spell in common they know (other than smite) and one other unique to them. I don't see a problem here.

Y'all are overreacting.

You aren't comparing to 7th.

TS Sorcerers could drop tough AV with Heretech powers, remove MCs with Shriek and Devolution, turn laughable shooting imbalances on their head with Treason, pick apart deathstars with Beams and Debuffs, and wreck entire squads with Force weapons and Biomancy. Even Pyromancy was useful at times because Horde control is sometimes an issue!

This made their army ultra-elite, brittle, and demanding. Casualties were not to be taken lightly. Which was very flavourful considering how their Legion has suffered historically.

Now they are just spamming Smite. It's not just a power level thing -- there was a ton of decision making and flavour in the psychic phase. Not only that, but the army revolved around effective use of the psychic phase. Shooting was widely held as overpowered in 7th -- having an army expanding what's viable is a good thing IMO.

So that's more of the issue. If Smite spam is effective, it'll still be bland and flavourless. It smacks of tokenism rather than putting thought into designing a fun phase.

 Karoline Dianne wrote:
Thousand Sons get to dish out tons of mortal wounds and have an antimagic screen throughout their entire army to deny enemy psykers. I dunno about you but that seems pretty spiffy to me. None of your Aspiring Sorcerers know anything but Smite, so they aren't bumping elbows with your other spells anyway, and you generally aren't taking more than 2 HQ units in a single list to begin with. So what, your two HQ sorcerers have one spell in common they know (other than smite) and one other unique to them. I don't see a problem here.

Y'all are overreacting.

10 mortal wounds is not tons espically when they will be spread out over 9-12 units IF they can even cast the 18" spell. There shooting is crap due to low model count, and thier CC is crap because thier crap at CC. The only thing they do well is psychic powers. And that is the most underwelming part of thier performance.

Smite is bad. Like really bad, almost exclusivly becuase you cant target units. Perils on a Rubric or SOT Sorc will cost me 90 points on average.

This is how out of the know you are. No one is going to bring more then 1 Sorcerer and its going to be Ahriman since he gets all 3 spells and can cast all three spells. Why would I spend 160 points when i can spend 130 and get the same capabilities?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So an article on thousand sons specifically came out.


https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/06/02/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-thousand-sons/

No mention of Sorcerers rending the sky. But they can put out mortal wounds.

 Karoline Dianne wrote:
Thousand Sons get to dish out tons of mortal wounds and have an antimagic screen throughout their entire army to deny enemy psykers. I dunno about you but that seems pretty spiffy to me. None of your Aspiring Sorcerers know anything but Smite, so they aren't bumping elbows with your other spells anyway, and you generally aren't taking more than 2 HQ units in a single list to begin with. So what, your two HQ sorcerers have one spell in common they know (other than smite) and one other unique to them. I don't see a problem here.

Y'all are overreacting.

Yeah... i was planning on ahriman, an exalted sorcerer, and 2/3 basic sorcerers. So yes, they will be stepping on each others' toes a bit. Because i liked the idea of ahriman and a cabal of sorcerers striding the battlefield with their terminator bodyguards. Low model count and a heavy focus on a myriad of different powers sounds like thousand sons to me. Now it just looks like im playing a regular chaos marine army painted blue.

 docdoom77 wrote:
I love it like this. I'm going to enjoy this much simpler, less broken format for as long as it lasts.

I think that psykers should pay for their abilities as other's pay for guns and they should be resolved similarly and simply. Psykers are a condiment not the main dish. I am happy that we can choose the powers as this opens up specific conversion potential. Also allows a psykers to have a specific role reliably on the field. And I am especially happy if psykers stay no more powerful than say an assassin or other special op.

 jeff white wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:
I love it like this. I'm going to enjoy this much simpler, less broken format for as long as it lasts.

I think that psykers should pay for their abilities as other's pay for guns and they should be resolved similarly and simply. Psykers are a condiment not the main dish. I am happy that we can choose the powers as this opens up specific conversion potential. Also allows a psykers to have a specific role reliably on the field. And I am especially happy if psykers stay no more powerful than say an assassin or other special op.

Except they pay for their powers, regardless of if they can use it.

 supreme overlord wrote:
Being a player with multiple armies (5+) and most of them haveing psychic powers... after looking at the rules leaks yesterday I'm not sure why I'd ever bring a psyker in this new edition. You get to choose between 3 powers, most are just the same thing re-written for every army. none are great, most are meh, leaving me with an overall bland feeling. Also take into account the cost of Psykers and I have no idea why anyone would bring them now. Can anyone shed some light on to some of the more exciting powers or convince me to take the 12+ psykers I have?

for purposes of this thread the psychic armies I have are: Eldar, Harlequins, Ynnari, and GSC.

Good, pyskers were ridiculous in 7th and heavily contributed to some of the awful shenanigans we saw that destroyed game balance.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Except they pay for their powers, regardless of if they can use it.

Yeah thats one of the big issues with TS the embeded psykers have such short range that all the enemy has to do is sit back and shoot at you and you will lose 3 turns worth of casting. The only way to counter this is bring Rhinos but then your increasing you cost per unit by 35 at least. And thats if you dont take any any additional models, which means you lose out on special weapons.

Rhinos are around 70 points.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Rhinos are around 70 points.

Yeah but multiple units can jump in. So 2 5 man Rubric Squads could hop in and save you 35 points.

"This army of powerful, heretical Sorcerers use the baleful power of the Warp and a finely honed tactical cunning to win their battles" (From the faction focus article)

For the Thousand Sons sorcerers ARE the army. Everything else is just support.

I hope they get something like Ahriman's Exiles updated to make them a legion of sorcerers again. Right now, they seem gimped by Psychic Focus in matched play.

Paying full price for handicapped Exalted Sorcerers? No thanks, !

I like the Harlequin powers, but I'll really miss Veil of Tears.

You were lucky if you got 2 usable powers/discipline in 7th. As far as I've seen all the new powers are pretty good.

Don't care about the discussion, just have a question that has already probably been touched on, how many powers were really used from most of those tables that were in 7th. So many powers were just useless in that edition.