Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Peregrine wrote:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
I'd sure like to know how people are building lists, and being able to play when the dang game or indexes aren't even in stores.

The entire game, index books included, has been leaked.

Because everything is homogenized so much. Consider heavy weapons, for example. In previous editions you couldn't move and shoot (effectively), and couldn't charge after shooting. So a unit with, say, lascannons played very differently from a unit with plasma guns. The lascannon unit had massive range but poor mobility, and giving up shooting for a turn to reposition was a tough call. The plasma unit had much better mobility, especially with the transports they often got, but paid for it with much shorter range. Now in 8th the two units are effectively identical. The penalty for moving and shooting with the lascannons is a mere -1 to hit, and you can even charge after shooting. So now it's just a question of which weapon's stat line is better.

Or consider flyers. In 7th they're hard to hit without specialized AA units, but they have some serious drawbacks in their limited firing arcs and inability to start the game on the table. So there's a clear difference between a player who can find a good strategy for handling these problems, and one who can't. But in 8th those differences are effectively gone. The accuracy penalty against flyers is a mere -1 to hit, so you can just shoot whatever random weapons you like at them and not worry about bringing AA specialists. But at the same time the flyer restrictions are effectively gone, so you can just orbit your flyer around the edge of the table without ever worrying about losing shots. There's barely any remaining difference between a flyer and a normal tank, or even a flyer and an infantry squad.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Well just cause it's leaked doesn't mean it's really 'available' to read right now.

Well, ok, if you don't want to read the books before they're officially released that's fine. But we have the entire contents of 8th edition, literal scans of every page of rules from every book. It's available if you want it.

Well I've been preaching that flyers should just be large skimmers from day one on a 40K table. There is no logical way flyers could even appear on the table in a fight of this scale. They are much better represented by things like the old Ork fighta bommer 'strafe' you could buy, not even SEE a model, cause it'd be. Whoosh, Explosion, and fighter gone at supersonic speeds. (this also applies to the lance strike mechanics Inquisition used to have, but still it's how flyers SHOULD be represented. No model, just an attack. ) The flyers like Valks, though could see the table because they are SLOWING down to the point they can be picked off. They are really more akin to helicopters in modern day, then an F-22 or B-2 bomber appearing going supersonic.

Sure, that's a fair point, but GW has gone past the point of no return by making 28mm flyer models and putting them into the game. The question now is how to represent them rules-wise, and the absurd homogenization of the unit type in 8th is a disappointing failure. They went from being an interesting strategic element, if not very realistic from a fluff point of view, to a much shallower concept that is barely different from conventional tanks and somehow manages to be even less realistic.

Oh I want to read them, but I also don't want the popo knocking my door down.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Oh I want to read them, but I also don't want the popo knocking my door down.

That's about as likely as the police coming for you because you were on the forum talking about the leaks. IOW, not happening. Read them if you want.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:

Well I've been preaching that flyers should just be large skimmers from day one on a 40K table. There is no logical way flyers could even appear on the table in a fight of this scale. They are much better represented by things like the old Ork fighta bommer 'strafe' you could buy, not even SEE a model, cause it'd be. Whoosh, Explosion, and fighter gone at supersonic speeds. (this also applies to the lance strike mechanics Inquisition used to have, but still it's how flyers SHOULD be represented. No model, just an attack. ) The flyers like Valks, though could see the table because they are SLOWING down to the point they can be picked off. They are really more akin to helicopters in modern day, then an F-22 or B-2 bomber appearing going supersonic.

I also agree that heavy weapons should be static to fire. That's the whole freakin' point of them being heavy. Man sized things can't just pick up these weapons and run towards the enemy firing unless they are super strong or one off crazy people...like Sgt. Harker.

Or consider my poor Tau. I play(ed FSE) suit heavy lists, and there was a reason to do so but not anymore. Do you people think that I gave this thing a 3 for no reason? Now my army plays JUST LIKE EVERONE ELSE'S! Why bother with this game? I mean, I'll hold onto my stuff until I see what the Tau codex is like, but if it is more of this crap, I'll join the rest of my local community in dropping this ruin of a game. I started playing this game for a reason. My army had a distinct flavor when I chose an army that (I believed) would age well. Don't get me wrong - the flavor is still there but in a cherry pepsi\coke kind of way. As I said, JSJ is gone, accurate firepower is out, weight of firepower is in. Tau are NOT supposed to be decent in melee, Tau are supposed to be mobile, they are supposed to die to a breeze in melee.

Every time I have heard or seen criticisms about my chosen army it was that they don't play like any other army in the game. They are not supposed to, else I would have chosen another army in this game!

And stop confusing Strategic and Tactical gameplay. Strategic is meta, where you choose what to deploy on the field. Tactical is what you do on the field of battle.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Which is, and forgive the Godwin, somewhat like saying Hitler wasn't so bad if you ignored the genocide and warmongering.

Plus, for the record, all 7th was was 2nd Lite, and 2nd was much better at doing what it did than 7th ever was.

No, I don't forgive the Godwin.
Majority of FLGS didn't involve the most broken lists at the top.

The vast majority of 7th involved a ton of options that gave people interesting options on what to do during their turn and how to build their armies.
There were vastly more Formations than the few that were broken.

Going instantly to Hitler is weak.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 jeff white wrote:

That seems to be a problem, jamming up vehicles.

I'm surprised, actually. I was expecting less of it, since it seems difficult to take advantage of and a list built to take advantage of it strikes me as having a lot of weaknesses.

Falling back can't shoot.
Good thing is this can be fixed with keyword "vehicle".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Oh I want to read them, but I also don't want the popo knocking my door down.

If this is your fear then sleep easy and wait friend.

I like the new rules and how they implemented them. I stopped playing when 7e came out because the power creep was too real. I'm definitely going to have fun in 8e because they redid all the rules. I'm very happy with points 2 and 3. Its point 1 I dislike. Why?

Well I like how Papa Smurf came back and this massive new warp storm. GM finally cashed in on a bunch of their possible plot points (Cadia falling, Papa Smurf coming back) and I like that direction. However, I don't like the how they handled Primaris Marines.

The Primaris Marines are a bit of a put off for me. I actually like them a lot, in HH they were hinted at. The Raven Guard were gonna make some - but then Alpha Legion trickery. So there existed a reason to have them, and a very strong one in my opinion.

However they kinda glossed over all of that and had Cawl become the deus ex machina and made a bunch of stuff up. It turns out they've existed for 10K years and are here to save the day. Bunch of crap to me.

 Talamare wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Which is, and forgive the Godwin, somewhat like saying Hitler wasn't so bad if you ignored the genocide and warmongering.

Plus, for the record, all 7th was was 2nd Lite, and 2nd was much better at doing what it did than 7th ever was.

No, I don't forgive the Godwin.
Majority of FLGS didn't involve the most broken lists at the top.

The vast majority of 7th involved a ton of options that gave people interesting options on what to do during their turn and how to build their armies.
There were vastly more Formations than the few that were broken.

Going instantly to Hitler is weak.

Fine, use another more creative analogy then, I just went for low hanging fruit because this isn't really a discussion that warrants great investment of intellectual resources.

15 in total.

I'm ok with the rules and I gave a 7 for both 2 and 3 categories, but I hate nurgle and can't stand ultramarines. Gigantic marines are also awful, not to mention the tank and even guilliman, I can't stand that model too. Not to mention their backgrond, a joke. I gave 1 to the first category.

 Talamare wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Which is, and forgive the Godwin, somewhat like saying Hitler wasn't so bad if you ignored the genocide and warmongering.

Plus, for the record, all 7th was was 2nd Lite, and 2nd was much better at doing what it did than 7th ever was.

No, I don't forgive the Godwin.
Majority of FLGS didn't involve the most broken lists at the top.

The vast majority of 7th involved a ton of options that gave people interesting options on what to do during their turn and how to build their armies.
There were vastly more Formations than the few that were broken.

Going instantly to Hitler is weak.

Don't give me that rose colored glasses crap. Even if you didn't play hyper competitive there was such a ridiculous power gap between good and bad that it was basically impossible to accidentally have a good game.

Got a friend who's played saim hain since 4th? Hope you don't play one of the 10 factipns in the game who can't do anything about eldar jetbikes. New player really loves the riptide model and only has 1500 points even with 2 of them? Hope you brought grav. Daemon of Tzeentch player? No way you're having a fun game.

Seventh was a minefield to try and get a good game in. Bring 1 too many psychic dice, one too many rerolls, or the wrong formation and you'd decimate someone (or get decimated) turn one and have nowhere to go from there.

Feth 7th, may it rot in pieces.

I don't get the logic behind aggressively defending 8th because 7th was bad. I didn't play 7th. Because it was bad. Telling me it was bad won't help me like 8th.

 Blackie wrote:
15 in total.

I'm ok with the rules and I gave a 7 for both 2 and 3 categories, but I hate nurgle and can't stand ultramarines. Gigantic marines are also awful, not to mention the tank and even guilliman, I can't stand that model too. Not to mention their backgrond, a joke. I gave 1 to the first category.

This is a common feeling it turns out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Novelist47 wrote:
I like the new rules and how they implemented them. I stopped playing when 7e came out because the power creep was too real. I'm definitely going to have fun in 8e because they redid all the rules. I'm very happy with points 2 and 3. Its point 1 I dislike. Why?

Well I like how Papa Smurf came back and this massive new warp storm. GM finally cashed in on a bunch of their possible plot points (Cadia falling, Papa Smurf coming back) and I like that direction. However, I don't like the how they handled Primaris Marines.

The Primaris Marines are a bit of a put off for me. I actually like them a lot, in HH they were hinted at. The Raven Guard were gonna make some - but then Alpha Legion trickery. So there existed a reason to have them, and a very strong one in my opinion.

However they kinda glossed over all of that and had Cawl become the deus ex machina and made a bunch of stuff up. It turns out they've existed for 10K years and are here to save the day. Bunch of crap to me.

This is very much a common feeling.

Not easy to imagine how they would introduce two wound marine nobs any better however...
Eldar deal making?
Cherub from the emperor's mind sent as a message?
Some sister of battle having nightmares from the warp, so Tzeentch's plan to split the Imperium?