Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)

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**em_en_oh_pee**

casvalremdeikun wrote:
Am I the only one that is positively giddy with anticipation for what my Chapter's Tactics will be? Will Crimson Fists get their own Chapter Tactics (adapted from their altered battle tactics used by Pedro Kantor), or will they have reverted to using standard Imperial Fists Tactics since they have been bolstered by Primaris Marines? Heck, I am excited to see what others get. Will Black Templars be able to maximize their Ripping and Tearing? They can't take Psykers, maybe they will still get to deny the witch like bosses? Will Raven Guard get to Infiltrate their Tactical Marines? Will White Scars get some variation of Hit and Run (though Ultramarines kinda stole their thunder there). Maximum Burnination for Salamanders? Vehicles with healing ability for Iron Hands?

I am excited for the new codex. I still think Chapter Tactics should be -1 CP in order to have them in effect, though.

I am excited also to see if FW does any of the "use such and such tactics" for the FW Chapters that have characters but didn't get fully fleshed out CTs.

Looking at you, Lias Issodon.

**GAdvance**

I'd be surprised if the FW chapters don't get chapter tactics similar to how they did before, even if a lot of them will get ultras tactics from being successors.

My biggest fear is that it will just take ages, or be in an expensive book, my biggest hope is that they come with unique relics and strategems though, either way can't wait to get my Carcharadons properly tearing into the enemy

**CrimsonApostle**

Hey y'all, if I may interject.
What units are most effective for melee? Trying to wrap my head around melee space marines but I'm not above using support units like conscript/priest or death cult assassins. What seems to be working for y'all?

**GAdvance**

CrimsonApostle wrote:
Hey y'all, if I may interject.
What units are most effective for melee? Trying to wrap my head around melee space marines but I'm not above using support units like conscript/priest or death cult assassins. What seems to be working for y'all?

Vanguard Veterans, Terminators of all stripes, Reivers are set to be decent, honour guard, bikers, company veterans on bikes and dreadnoughts of all types.

Truth be told though marines aren't really a melee army and their best units for melee are all the independent characters, mix a librarians powers with a dread for instance and it's a force multiplier.

The best Marines assault units are also generally in the non-codex armies, death company, black knights, crusader squads and bloodclaws are all effective.

Really depends what sort of unit you want honestly, crusaders are he cheapest and become good when mixed with HQ's whereas VV or terminators can be he best but cost a bomb

**wtwlf123**

The vanilla Marines don't make for a compelling close combat army. You can field 1-2 effective units in an otherwise traditional marine list and do okay, but I wouldn't focus an army on the strategy. TH/SS Terminators coming out of a LRC supported by a Terminator Chaplain and/or a Null Zone Terminator Librarian work well. Darnath Lysander is still a close combat beast, and some ways to kit Vanguard Veterans can make them pretty killy in close combat.

But if you want a whole army of power armor and close combat, you should probably be playing Blood Angels or Khorne Berserkers.

**CaptainValtos**

and some ways to kit Vanguard Veterans can make them pretty killy in close combat.

What do you reckon are good ways to kit out vanguard vets? I'm picking up two squads of them and have been torn as to how to equip them. Leaning towards having a squad of all lightning claws, though I'm not sure about the other ones. Thunderhammers are always great fun, but they get expensive quickly and that -1 to hit could hurt a bit. Storm shields seem like a must, but plasma pistols also seem pretty fantastic, especially if I can keep a captain nearby.

**MinscS2**

casvalremdeikun wrote:
Am I the only one that is positively giddy with anticipation for what my Chapter's Tactics will be?

I'm slightly curious, but given GWs trackrecord of giving my Salamanders one of the worst chapter tactics out of all the chapters in every codex, I'm not exactly wetting my pants with glee.

With that said, any chapter tactic is better than none at all (which is the case currently), even if it becomes something lame like "A <Salamander> gain one additional hit when shooting with flamers and heavy flamers."

**jcd386**

CaptainValtos wrote:
and some ways to kit Vanguard Veterans can make them pretty killy in close combat.

What do you reckon are good ways to kit out vanguard vets? I'm picking up two squads of them and have been torn as to how to equip them. Leaning towards having a squad of all lightning claws, though I'm not sure about the other ones. Thunderhammers are always great fun, but they get expensive quickly and that -1 to hit could hurt a bit. Storm shields seem like a must, but plasma pistols also seem pretty fantastic, especially if I can keep a captain nearby.

I think the prevailing opinion is plasma pistols and chainswords are the most effective loadout

Automatically Appended Next Post:

MinscS2 wrote:
casvalremdeikun wrote:
Am I the only one that is positively giddy with anticipation for what my Chapter's Tactics will be?

I'm slightly curious, but given GWs trackrecord of giving my Salamanders one of the worst chapter tactics out of all the chapters in every codex, I'm not exactly wetting my pants with glee.

With that said, any chapter tactic is better than none at all (which is the case currently), even if it becomes something lame like "A <Salamander> gain one additional hit when shooting with flamers and heavy flamers."

I imagine it will be more like can reroll wounds of 1 for all flamer and melta weapons, have an invul save against those weapons, or can reroll the d6 hits or d6 damage rolls.

**stratigo**

CaptainValtos wrote:
and some ways to kit Vanguard Veterans can make them pretty killy in close combat.

What do you reckon are good ways to kit out vanguard vets? I'm picking up two squads of them and have been torn as to how to equip them. Leaning towards having a squad of all lightning claws, though I'm not sure about the other ones. Thunderhammers are always great fun, but they get expensive quickly and that -1 to hit could hurt a bit. Storm shields seem like a must, but plasma pistols also seem pretty fantastic, especially if I can keep a captain nearby.

The best vanguards are probly dual plasma pistol

But for melee it depends on their target. If you are hitting vehicles or monsters or multi wound heavy infantry thunder hammers remain the best. For hordes I am tempted to consider lightning claws with a couple of storm shields added in

**Mandragola**

I think Lightning claw cataphractii might be a decent option. They are quite solid and tanky. I could run a squad with Lysander for my fists, either teleporting in or in a storm eagle.

The "accept no substitute" imperial melee unit may be Custodes. I'm aware that they aren't marines. Somehow though, they manage to cost the same as assault terminators, or less. Hitting on 2s instead of 4s (with TH or PF) means they do comparable damage against even hard targets, while blending soft things (anything t4 or less) almost instantly. And they even have guns.

**stratigo**

Mandragola wrote:
I think Lightning claw cataphractii might be a decent option. They are quite solid and tanky. I could run a squad with Lysander for my fists, either teleporting in or in a storm eagle.

The "accept no substitute" imperial melee unit may be Custodes. I'm aware that they aren't marines. Somehow though, they manage to cost the same as assault terminators, or less. Hitting on 2s instead of 4s (with TH or PF) means they do comparable damage against even hard targets, while blending soft things (anything t4 or less) almost instantly. And they even have guns.

Custodes are fun, but, eh. They don't teleport any more. They walk or take a 350 point land raider. That land raider is EXPENSIVE. And they don't get the chapter character synergies.

I wouldn't take a land raider for thundernators if I took thundernators. Just too many points, and that's a cheaper land raider

**wtwlf123**

CaptainValtos wrote:
and some ways to kit Vanguard Veterans can make them pretty killy in close combat.

What do you reckon are good ways to kit out vanguard vets? I'm picking up two squads of them and have been torn as to how to equip them. Leaning towards having a squad of all lightning claws, though I'm not sure about the other ones. Thunderhammers are always great fun, but they get expensive quickly and that -1 to hit could hurt a bit. Storm shields seem like a must, but plasma pistols also seem pretty fantastic, especially if I can keep a captain nearby.

I like Chainsword + Plasma Pistol if they're accompanied by a Jump Pack Captain to mitigate potential self-destructive rolls. And/or kitting them with affordable power weapons and having a Jump Pack Chaplain near the squad to re-roll failed close combat to-hit rolls.

**GAdvance**

If you're going to use double plasma pistols why not instead just use veteran bikers (or normal bikers) with cheaper and better plasma guns that are just as mobile and hardier

Nah if you're using VV then imho plasma pistols are for a little extra flavour and you should either go for some storm shields and fancy weapons with a chaplain or double chainswords for cheap mass killing

**jcd386**

GAdvance wrote:
If you're going to use double plasma pistols why not instead just use veteran bikers (or normal bikers) with cheaper and better plasma guns that are just as mobile and hardier

Nah if you're using VV then imho plasma pistols are for a little extra flavour and you should either go for some storm shields and fancy weapons with a chaplain or double chainswords for cheap mass killing

Unless you have Shrike or a librarian in range, i disagree with that many melee points in VV.

**GAdvance**

You're that worries about failing charges i guess?

also i run an almost all melee marine army with my Carcharadons so i guess it's kind of a unique situation where if one unit fails a charge 2 others have made it

**Crusaderobr**

Death Company with just standard bolt pistol/chainswords and Lemartes are great against Horde. Take a 15 man unit and charge 2 different squads that way they stay tied up. Only 20 points each for 4 attacks on the charge in cc. 6+ ignore wounds, not Death Guard tough but a little tougher than your average space marine.

**ultimentra**

If you want to do the double chainsword option on Vanguard Veterans for infantry churn and burn, and you play BT, Helbrecht is a good option. Wound T4 infantry on a 3+ with those chainsword attacks. I tried out Vanguard Vets on foot with BP/CS with Helbrecht a couple times and it didn't work out that great, but I'd be willing to try it again.

If point costs don't change, I'm definitely putting together some plasma pistol gunslingers.

**casvalremdeikun**

I swear, if those new Inceptors are wielding short range plasma cannons, I will die a happy man.

Also, confirmation that there will be 7 Chapter Tactics(same as the 7E C:SM) in the new Codex and 8 Chapter-Specific Warlord Traits (Crimson Fists being the eighth in addition to the other seven). Each Warlord trait chapter gets a unique Relic. No real word on if there will be more relics beyond that.

**stratigo**

GAdvance wrote:
If you're going to use double plasma pistols why not instead just use veteran bikers (or normal bikers) with cheaper and better plasma guns that are just as mobile and hardier

Nah if you're using VV then imho plasma pistols are for a little extra flavour and you should either go for some storm shields and fancy weapons with a chaplain or double chainswords for cheap mass killing

Because bikers are not, themselves, cheaper. You are trying to minimize cost for effect. Also your bikers might be shot to death before they do anything

**Traceoftoxin**

One of the best melee options is Company Veteran spam. Minimum squads are 2 bodies, 1 of which is a 3A sgt. Easy to get elite slots.

**CrimsonApostle**

Traceoftoxin wrote:
One of the best melee options is Company Veteran spam. Minimum squads are 2 bodies, 1 of which is a 3A sgt. Easy to get elite slots.

Wouldn't honor guard fill this role better? 1 extra wound, 2+ save, relic blades, though I guess a lot of weapons invalidate the usefulness of 2 wounds

**Traceoftoxin**

CrimsonApostle wrote:
Traceoftoxin wrote:
One of the best melee options is Company Veteran spam. Minimum squads are 2 bodies, 1 of which is a 3A sgt. Easy to get elite slots.

Wouldn't honor guard fill this role better? 1 extra wound, 2+ save, relic blades, though I guess a lot of weapons invalidate the usefulness of 2 wounds

Honor Guard are way better defensively, only 12.5 pts a wound with a 2+ is great. But only 2A each hurts. Definitely a strong choice, and better against armored targets, but, weight of attacks is a very real thing.

If you are playing with 2xchainswords = +2 attacks, you can have 9 attacks for 32 pts per pair. It's not orks, but, it's some of the most chop per point we can get.

Alternatively, you can take chainsword+stormbolter, and get 8 shots and 7 attacks per pair for only a smidgen more. 40 shots and 35 attacks on the charge is pretty solid for less than 200 pts.

**Malifice**

casvalremdeikun wrote:
I swear, if those new Inceptors are wielding short range plasma cannons, I will die a happy man.

Also, confirmation that there will be 7 Chapter Tactics(same as the 7E C:SM) in the new Codex and 8 Chapter-Specific Warlord Traits (Crimson Fists being the eighth in addition to the other seven). Each Warlord trait chapter gets a unique Relic. No real word on if there will be more relics beyond that.

As a fellow Fist player, hail brother!

I'm hoping for some kind of special overwatch (hit on a 5+ with overwatch... or maybe shoot Bolters at normal BS when shooting overwatch?) for the fists, plus something to reflect their tenancity.

Make them an absolute PITA to charge when you blob them up.

We already get re-rolls to hit and damage with a Lt and Captain/ Kantor.

It better be something tasty to make up for the lack of special characters the Ultramarines and other favored Chapters get (including the return of all the Primarchs).

**Sonminiser**

Has most cost efficient heavy weapons been discussed? So far I am really liking lascannons for vehicle hunting and missile launchers for their adaptability. Has anyone had any success with Grav-cannons? I found I haven't liked regular grav guns.

**Tibs Ironblood**

Malifice wrote:
casvalremdeikun wrote:
I swear, if those new Inceptors are wielding short range plasma cannons, I will die a happy man.

Also, confirmation that there will be 7 Chapter Tactics(same as the 7E C:SM) in the new Codex and 8 Chapter-Specific Warlord Traits (Crimson Fists being the eighth in addition to the other seven). Each Warlord trait chapter gets a unique Relic. No real word on if there will be more relics beyond that.

As a fellow Fist player, hail brother!

I'm hoping for some kind of special overwatch (hit on a 5+ with overwatch... or maybe shoot Bolters at normal BS when shooting overwatch?) for the fists, plus something to reflect their tenancity.

Make them an absolute PITA to charge when you blob them up.

We already get re-rolls to hit and damage with a Lt and Captain/ Kantor.

It better be something tasty to make up for the lack of special characters the Ultramarines and other favored Chapters get (including the return of all the Primarchs).

I would be very disappointing if Fists got bolter re-rolls because so many things give them re-rolls now that it would just be stupid to give them fairly pointless re-rolls. What I would LOVE to see if their bolters get +1 strength across the board. Now that would be very scary to face and maybe too scary. Perhaps another shot on each bolter? A bonus to rending feels more like a marksmen thing, but more firepower would make sense. I could then see there being devastator related traits like re-rolling to wound against vehicles/monsters as well something related to dueling enemy characters as that is something that is featured prominently in their lore, but perhaps that part would be better used on the Black Templars.

**Malifice**

Tibs Ironblood wrote:
I would be very disappointing if Fists got bolter re-rolls because so many things give them re-rolls now that it would just be stupid to give them fairly pointless re-rolls.

Exactly - already getting re-rolls from Captains etc. Its a waste.

I like the better overwatch with Bolters (Bolters hit on a normal BS on overwatch instead of a 6?) because it fits the fluff of the Imperal and Crimson Fists being a 'defensive' chapter.

We can blob up and be a real PITA to charge through a hail of bolter rounds.

What I would LOVE to see if their bolters get +1 strength across the board.

Gong from Str 4 to 5 isnt that huge a deal, and would rarely come into play. Strength 4, 6 and 8 (and 9) is where the real money is.

JJ

Malifice wrote:

Gong from Str 4 to 5 isnt that huge a deal, and would rarely come into play. Strength 4, 6 and 8 (and 9) is where the real money is.

Seems like a reasonably big deal to me. Wounding T4 (very common) on 3+ instead of 4s, wounding T8 on 5s instead of 6s (also very common).

**MinscS2**

JJ wrote:
Malifice wrote:

Gong from Str 4 to 5 isnt that huge a deal, and would rarely come into play. Strength 4, 6 and 8 (and 9) is where the real money is.

Seems like a reasonably big deal to me. Wounding T4 (very common) on 3+ instead of 4s, wounding T8 on 5s instead of 6s (also very common).

This^.

Going from S4 to S5 is pretty damn huge.
You wouldn't even need anti-tank, since massed IF bolterfire @S5 would punch trough heavy armour (T8) simply by weight of attacks.

**Mandragola**

MinscS2 wrote:
JJ wrote:
Malifice wrote:

Gong from Str 4 to 5 isnt that huge a deal, and would rarely come into play. Strength 4, 6 and 8 (and 9) is where the real money is.

Seems like a reasonably big deal to me. Wounding T4 (very common) on 3+ instead of 4s, wounding T8 on 5s instead of 6s (also very common).

This^.

Going from S4 to S5 is pretty damn huge.
You wouldn't even need anti-tank, since massed IF bolterfire @S5 would punch trough heavy armour (T8) simply by weight of attacks.

Nope.

Imagine taking 12 wounds off a Leman Russ. T8 and 3+ save. 1/9 hits is a wound (1/6 for intercessors). Hitting on a 3+ you'd need 162 bolter shots to achieve that, or 108 from intercessors. Imagine trying to take down a storm raven or a land raider.

You might do the occasional wound, but it's not enough on its own - for the same reason people don't just use assault cannons now. Guns that do multiple wounds, and wound easily with significant AP, are required.

**Leth**

Honestly if they do something for salamanders with flamers and meltas again...holy crap that is scary.

Also has anyone been running lieutenants? I think their aura is one of the best since re-roll hits is pretty easy to come by but re-roll wounds....that is where the money is at.