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Honestly, very few armies can pull off a brigade at 2000 points without resorting to slot filler units which means your basically sacrificing the strength of units in order to get CP's. generally I would say it just isn't worth it, better off building a strong list with 80% of your points then seeing which formations it fits in best and filling in the rest. So far nearly everyone I have played that tries to focus their list on gaining CP's has regretted it.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I posted an Alpha Legion brigade in here before but got no responses.
My primary issue with yours is that it doesn't have a real...focus to it.
It has plenty of focus, a list doesn't need to spam the same 1 or 2 ideas or principles ad nauseum in order to be good. I have found in 8th that having a variety of units throws my opponents off way more. If I spam oblits or berserkers or X unit then they know exactly how to deal with my army as soon as they figure out how to tackle one of those units. Not saying spam is bad, it's just easy mode as a player. Instead of having to make all my units work and not worrying about losing one you just learn to use a different tool. It's way more entertaining for both parties as well unless your only idea of fun is getting a win. Not bashing that btw just making the point that for some players the destination is all they care about while for others its the hourny and yet for others it is both. I am in the both category, used to spam non stop in 5th and 6th then realized I got bored of my armies incredibly fast.
IOW: Throwing random stuff in a list is totally focused
No it isn't. Spam doesn't always equate focus. What you're thinking about is redundancy, which is handy but not always necessary.
However, the list doesn't HAVE a game plan.
There is nothing randomly thrown in there. He filled out the required slots for a battalion and chose strong units each built with a purpose.
Spam IS a type of focus or I should say a way to achieve focus. Theres spamming units for a specific roll which is redundancy or macro focus. Then you can also focus solely on a task, like shooting or assault. Then there is micro focus which is making a unit loadout toward a specific purpose. This is what I am referring to. None of his units are loaded in a way to suggest they lack focus. For example a unit of havocs with a sergeant equipped with a power fist and half the unit carrying las canons and the other half with flamers, thats a unit lacking focus. An amry doesn't have to be all in on assault or all in on shooting to be good.
Lists don't have game plans, players do. I just punked every opponent at a tournament with a guard list that had seemingly random units on my list. My opponents laughed and didn't take my army as seriously as the other guard armies that just spammed cheapo infantry and basilisks. I had combat commanders and all my relics were weapons, they were shocked when I rook rolled through their lines. I had a specific strategy and idea on how to handle everything I faced. My army had strong shooting and strong assault coming from nearly ZERO spamed units aside from infantry squads fulfilling my troops.
His list has screeners, which I'd say is about the only real requirement of every list in 8th. Beyond that there are several ways to skin a cat. His list can definitely be made more lethal, for example the autocanons are not great and I'd rather take 3 lascanons then 4 auto canons, small things like that, but none of his unit choices are bad even mixed together. You also need to put his list into the context that it isn't meant to bash teeth in and table someone turn 1. So in that regard the only real nit pick, which is efficiency of loadouts, is made less omportant because of that.
Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are trying to suggest, but your not explaining yourself here, your being vague. I am interested in what you think specifically makes his list unfocused*.
*optimal choices, spam, best loadout? etc etc...
It's actually a combination of everything. Let's take a look.
1. The first part you'll notice is that he took Iron Warriors as his Legion. That means he would either want to focus on the shooty aspect they got and use MoS appropriately, and/or make use of large screens of Infantry using their Warlord Trait and make NOTHING run away.
2. So we then have small amounts of Cultists ready to do that. However, there are 7 Troops being ran, rather than JUST getting the tax out of the way.
The Chaos Marines with the MoK are just bad Berserker Marines. So we then have the lone Marine squad rocking a Lascannon to go with said Cultists.
3. With those Cultists, they're not screening a lot of important stuff. More importantly, which HQ is gonna make them be brave? The Sorcerer is to deep Strike and use powers when advantageous, the Apostle is clearly going with either melee squad of either Berserker Marines or Regular Marines, and the Prince is too expensive to just sit and camp. So who's gonna do it?
4. There's not enough saturation of melee threats. Nobody is scared of melee Marines, so you only have to worry about the Berserker Marines, the Prince, and the Maulerfiend. This is easy to defend against. Like, super easy.
5. THEN there's not a lot of shooting. 3 Lascannons, an ML, and 8 Autocannons with the Noise Marines shooting isn't a whole lot to make use of the Chapter Tactic, not to mention there's no horde shooting outside those Noise Marines.
6. Then we only have two Rhinos for the three squads that want to go anywhere: the MoK Marines, the Berserker Marines, and the Noise Marines.
The list doesn't HAVE focus, it wasn't built WITH focus, and there won't BE focus against even a mediocre list from any index or codex. I could probably make a Necron list that cam beat it, and that says a lot.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Brigade MSU might be viable in a strictly objectives game (and I’m not certain about that - seems like you’ll struggle to screen your firebase, AND fill no man’s land with bodies, AND mount an effective invasion), but in purge and Maelstrom you’ve presented a lot of fairly easy kills that aren’t especially efficient glass cannons. Chaos isn’t AM, we don’t get to airdrop a bucket of disposable melta. Far better to take two battalions, one of them Nurgle Daemons, a spearhead of Oblits and havocs, and either a vanguard or outriders. Or even a flyer wing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/08 13:30:59
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I posted an Alpha Legion brigade in here before but got no responses.
My primary issue with yours is that it doesn't have a real...focus to it.
It has plenty of focus, a list doesn't need to spam the same 1 or 2 ideas or principles ad nauseum in order to be good. I have found in 8th that having a variety of units throws my opponents off way more. If I spam oblits or berserkers or X unit then they know exactly how to deal with my army as soon as they figure out how to tackle one of those units. Not saying spam is bad, it's just easy mode as a player. Instead of having to make all my units work and not worrying about losing one you just learn to use a different tool. It's way more entertaining for both parties as well unless your only idea of fun is getting a win. Not bashing that btw just making the point that for some players the destination is all they care about while for others its the hourny and yet for others it is both. I am in the both category, used to spam non stop in 5th and 6th then realized I got bored of my armies incredibly fast.
IOW: Throwing random stuff in a list is totally focused
No it isn't. Spam doesn't always equate focus. What you're thinking about is redundancy, which is handy but not always necessary.
However, the list doesn't HAVE a game plan.
There is nothing randomly thrown in there. He filled out the required slots for a battalion and chose strong units each built with a purpose.
Spam IS a type of focus or I should say a way to achieve focus. Theres spamming units for a specific roll which is redundancy or macro focus. Then you can also focus solely on a task, like shooting or assault. Then there is micro focus which is making a unit loadout toward a specific purpose. This is what I am referring to. None of his units are loaded in a way to suggest they lack focus. For example a unit of havocs with a sergeant equipped with a power fist and half the unit carrying las canons and the other half with flamers, thats a unit lacking focus. An amry doesn't have to be all in on assault or all in on shooting to be good.
Lists don't have game plans, players do. I just punked every opponent at a tournament with a guard list that had seemingly random units on my list. My opponents laughed and didn't take my army as seriously as the other guard armies that just spammed cheapo infantry and basilisks. I had combat commanders and all my relics were weapons, they were shocked when I rook rolled through their lines. I had a specific strategy and idea on how to handle everything I faced. My army had strong shooting and strong assault coming from nearly ZERO spamed units aside from infantry squads fulfilling my troops.
His list has screeners, which I'd say is about the only real requirement of every list in 8th. Beyond that there are several ways to skin a cat. His list can definitely be made more lethal, for example the autocanons are not great and I'd rather take 3 lascanons then 4 auto canons, small things like that, but none of his unit choices are bad even mixed together. You also need to put his list into the context that it isn't meant to bash teeth in and table someone turn 1. So in that regard the only real nit pick, which is efficiency of loadouts, is made less omportant because of that.
Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are trying to suggest, but your not explaining yourself here, your being vague. I am interested in what you think specifically makes his list unfocused*.
*optimal choices, spam, best loadout? etc etc...
It's actually a combination of everything. Let's take a look.
1. The first part you'll notice is that he took Iron Warriors as his Legion. That means he would either want to focus on the shooty aspect they got and use MoS appropriately, and/or make use of large screens of Infantry using their Warlord Trait and make NOTHING run away.
2. So we then have small amounts of Cultists ready to do that. However, there are 7 Troops being ran, rather than JUST getting the tax out of the way.
The Chaos Marines with the MoK are just bad Berserker Marines. So we then have the lone Marine squad rocking a Lascannon to go with said Cultists.
3. With those Cultists, they're not screening a lot of important stuff. More importantly, which HQ is gonna make them be brave? The Sorcerer is to deep Strike and use powers when advantageous, the Apostle is clearly going with either melee squad of either Berserker Marines or Regular Marines, and the Prince is too expensive to just sit and camp. So who's gonna do it?
4. There's not enough saturation of melee threats. Nobody is scared of melee Marines, so you only have to worry about the Berserker Marines, the Prince, and the Maulerfiend. This is easy to defend against. Like, super easy.
5. THEN there's not a lot of shooting. 3 Lascannons, an ML, and 8 Autocannons with the Noise Marines shooting isn't a whole lot to make use of the Chapter Tactic, not to mention there's no horde shooting outside those Noise Marines.
6. Then we only have two Rhinos for the three squads that want to go anywhere: the MoK Marines, the Berserker Marines, and the Noise Marines.
The list doesn't HAVE focus, it wasn't built WITH focus, and there won't BE focus against even a mediocre list from any index or codex. I could probably make a Necron list that cam beat it, and that says a lot.
OK thanks, a lot of that is fair and I am in agreement on. Like I thought, I was misunderstanding your meaning of focus I guess.
1. To me the legion trait isn't something I like to tell people to change, because I assume they play like myself and don't tell people that my IW are Alpha legion etc etc. Thats not a judgement, just a recognition that some folks want to play their legion, and that they obviously want to take that legion when I see certain builds.
2. He only has 6 troops, unless I missed something. 5 cultist units and a min marine squad. He can always use the DA in concert with the cultists and the larger 17 man unit can easily be recycled up the table later. I can see why you might dislike the marine unit, but really they are not that bad, its a las canon in his backfield. he would be better off adding 3 more cultists top the 17 man unit, splitting it then dropping the 5 man marine unit and adding bodies to the havocs or the elite marines. But ultimately that isn't much of a focus issue and more of an efiiciency issue. I can play a focused army and have no cultists.
3. This is probably my super weird play style comming up. When I see his list I see my opponent bitching as he cannot place any models in my deployment and if I get first turn he would need to drop them into HIS deployment. You only need a daisy chain to screen but his army has enough to block out his whole zone and rush out turn one with a pair of units, the rhinos and the spawn and eat the rest of the table space. I usually win 40k in the movement phase, I kill stuff, but I have won games where I don't kill a lot and just eat the board and block my opponent. I see no need to DS the sorceror btw, I mean he can if he doesn't have a plan immediately for him so he can drop him wherever in his lines, but this kind of list isn't about getting stuck in turn 1. He's better off advancing out, taking real estate, etablishing new screens further up with his rhinos or spawn and terrain. Then waiting and counter assaulting. If he goes all in on one threat first turn then yea he is giving away a unit. No point in using 2-3 units to get stuck in and then lose all of it. Oh and it's interesting you thought the apostle was clearly going up with the berserkers because I thought he was clearly for the back line and cultists, You answered it yourself, the demon prince is clearly going forward so why waste two aura buffs up front. Make the Apostle the warlord and suddenly the DP is expendable as well. I hate DP warlords personally, if you use them the right way they usually die, this is true for all vanguard HQs really.
4. He doesn't need to win through melee though, if he parks a rhino with qa team of berserkers mid field (behind terrain ideally) then they create a giant no go zone. Same goes for the DP, the mauler fiend is harder to hide, but in my experience players waste way too many shots trying to kill mine. Basically add him to that front line road block and expect him to die, but hopefully he buys you another turn of board control at the middle.
5. This I agree with, but thats why I am looking at his list the way I am. His army isn't killing much, so he is gonna win on board control and being annoying with his expendable units like rhinos and spawn and that fiend. He has enough shooting to hang in there though, but target priority is going to be very important. In regard to horde, again he doesn't need to kill all of that horde (whatever it is) just take as much of the table as he can first turn. I mean, if the DP, zerkers, fiend and both spawn hit the same area they will drive it back pretty far, I know those things aren't guaranteed to all make it obviously, but again remember how easy it is to block units in 8th. Hordes generally don't fly or hit very hard.
6. The rhinos are a weak spot, it's better to lose a pair of zerkers for more noise marines so all three can fit into the two or to drop the marines in the first place.
I'll add that in general I think brigades are a bad idea at 2k. Why force the issue? CP's are only good when they boost your list, if your list is taking a hit for more CP's then they aren't really doing you any favors. At that point you need to use them in order to make your units decent. Just take the other formations.
Thanks for your input again, that gives me a much better perspective on your thought process. I fully acknowledge I take strange lists and win in strange ways sometimes. So it it easier to hash things out when we can both figure out how the other is looking the puzzle.
1. I won't ask someone to change their Legion Trait. HOWEVER, if you won't build around it, I'll point it out.
2. There's 7. There's 4 minimum Cultists, the strange one at 17, a minimum Marine Lascannon, and then the MoK Marines.
With a Brigade, troops are mostly a tax. With Marines, any troop not a Cultist is really a tax.
3. The Cultists aren't in large enough numbers to deny that space without deployment shenanigans, so with Iron Warriors the best way to do it is to use them as your wall, so to speak. With this list, once a couple of squads are killed, Deep Strikes will have their way.
That's another point with the Sorcerer. Either you're going to make use of the Jump Pack or not. You can't purchase upgrades you MIGHT use. You purchase upgrades you WILL use. Either you're running the Sorcerer up or Deep Strike, or you can just lose the Jump Pack and save some points.
The Apostle is also too expensive to do just have sitting back. A Lord with the correct Warlord Trait will do that for exponentially cheaper and let the shooting units do better work if nearby. The Dark Apostle doesn't offer anything in that scenario.
4. He doesn't need to win through melee, but lone melee threats are bad if not used in saturation. There's not a lot, therefore you kill the them in order based on danger factor. That Daemon Prince won't live T1 because of it, as you're correct that the Maulerfiend takes a decent amount of firepower to kill. That means that it's ignored typically.
5. Elaborate on "enough shooting". I listed the dangerous shooting. That's not enough focus.
6. Berserker Marines are fine in Rhinos if you have enough of them. Just one squad ensures the opponent will kill the Rhino and then they gotta run all the way.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Is Macharius Vulcan worth its points at all? I am using it to run a super heavy detachment and it is the only model I do not currently own in my planned list. Coming in around 150+ USD after shipping, taxes etc. from forgeworld I want to get a sense if it is worthwhile at all.
30 shots sounds exciting but hitting on a 4+ and as it is a R+H unit essentially 0 possibility for rerolls makes this effectively 15 shots from the vulcan (assuming it doesn't move) and the stubbers/heavy bolters add effectively maybe 5 extra hits. So about 20 hits for a 360+ point unit to me is worrisome.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 1. I won't ask someone to change their Legion Trait. HOWEVER, if you won't build around it, I'll point it out.
2. There's 7. There's 4 minimum Cultists, the strange one at 17, a minimum Marine Lascannon, and then the MoK Marines.
With a Brigade, troops are mostly a tax. With Marines, any troop not a Cultist is really a tax.
3. The Cultists aren't in large enough numbers to deny that space without deployment shenanigans, so with Iron Warriors the best way to do it is to use them as your wall, so to speak. With this list, once a couple of squads are killed, Deep Strikes will have their way.
That's another point with the Sorcerer. Either you're going to make use of the Jump Pack or not. You can't purchase upgrades you MIGHT use. You purchase upgrades you WILL use. Either you're running the Sorcerer up or Deep Strike, or you can just lose the Jump Pack and save some points.
The Apostle is also too expensive to do just have sitting back. A Lord with the correct Warlord Trait will do that for exponentially cheaper and let the shooting units do better work if nearby. The Dark Apostle doesn't offer anything in that scenario.
4. He doesn't need to win through melee, but lone melee threats are bad if not used in saturation. There's not a lot, therefore you kill the them in order based on danger factor. That Daemon Prince won't live T1 because of it, as you're correct that the Maulerfiend takes a decent amount of firepower to kill. That means that it's ignored typically.
5. Elaborate on "enough shooting". I listed the dangerous shooting. That's not enough focus.
6. Berserker Marines are fine in Rhinos if you have enough of them. Just one squad ensures the opponent will kill the Rhino and then they gotta run all the way.
1. I get that, thats fair but most of the traits are worth building around anyway. That doesn't mean they can't be, besides his havocs and brute are where most of his fire support is coming from anyway and they still benefit.
2. Hmm I missed the MoK squad so thats a fair assessment. I still think marines are useful, but so far as to take redundant slots.
3. Sure they are, My guard list runs 4 infantry squads, 3 command squads and a bullgryn unit. I just played a game a few nights ago where I successfully denied 6 deepstriking units from ~65% of the table including my backfield after my turn 1 advances. If you make a chevron shape with two units starting 9" away from your deployment corners and coming together at the midpoint atop of your zone and then use the other units as a picket line across the top you can block your zone and 9" away from your zone, and with first turn advances easily push that zone out beyond half field. As I said I have done it with less infantry, his fire base will fill the middle of his deployment. I mean the two spawn alone will eat a 20" circle when you factor their base. Thats massive. If the enemy is shooting cultists and single spawn to make a gap, which BTW is very hard to do considering a single 25mm model needs a 19.5" diameter circle to land, now add a squad, then I would count that as a winning game plan already. If they don't focus fire a cultist unit entirely he can spend 2 CP and run them right back in place.
In regard to the jump pack, I diasagree. Just because he can deploy anywhere doesn't mean you need to drop him in front of the enemy, you can use him to make your opponent screen up, then drop him in your line where hes the most use. Having a 12" fly move is not bad either, with demon shell and smite i have assassinated more then a few characters later on, give him infernal gaze and it's just about a lock.
As for the apostle, I agree with you here, they suck and need to be dropped to less then a lord. But I was working with what he listed. Your right there though, he could easily imporve the army with a lord. An apostle with cultists is just so cool though, I didn't fault him. This is a tactics thread though so I'll concede that for sure.
4. See I have had much different experiences, I ran a keeper of secrets, demonettes and a mauler fiend as a fluffy auxillery against an opponent and between empty rhinos and them charging up I managed to occupy most of his army all game. I know thats anecdotal, but it's the one of many situations where I have used a small contingent to advance, then assault in turns 2-3 and they generally occupy my opponents backfield for far longer then they would have wished. The DP will live well passed turn 1 since they can't shoot it, so if it's sanwiched between a rhino full of berzerkers and a maulerfiend what do you shoot? maulerfiend takes a lot of shots to kill, and the rhino is expendable, I'd say turn 1 he's better off forming a 2 whino wall with the berserkers behind them in case he goes second, whichever rhino lives they hop into and take off in, DP in between the MF.
5. This is subjective obviously, I mean more shooting is always not enough. But with strategems he can double tap a havoc unit and the helbrute so he has some gun.
6. See my above point. He can start the NM and havocs potentially or the marine units in the rhinos with the KB hidden behind them. Hop them into which ever has room first turn. Again, the enemy has a mighty task if they are dropping the mauler fiend, two rhinos and killing enough cultists to form a gap for their deepstrikers, which apparently will drop NEXT turn without him compensating for the gap. I mean, if their army is capable of all that then he's facing some cheese lol. This will never beat a min maxed bobby G list. At that point I'll repeat myself again, don't waste time on a brigade, just take a killy battalion+X formations.
andysonic1 wrote: Spawn won't push anything off an objective, but they'll hold up anything there long enough for your other units to get there. Bolters also aren't that great at the moment, you'd want to give your bikes special weapons to make them worth it. Remember that you can move 20 inches and then fire flamers with them.
I think even basic bikes now days are worth while for objective taking and they dish out a bunch of bolter shots which is good at clearing chaff for minimal investment. Finding the points for them is difficult though.
I did not want to start a new thread, but has anyone tried a squad of five raptors with 2 x plasma gun and an combi-plasma? It is just under 130, and I use Black Legion (that is what I have been using for years other than Thousand Sons) and with the Stratagem "Let The Galaxy Burn" you can re-roll those ones on the plasma. Anyone try this? Also anyone try 3 bikes with 2 x flamers and combi-flamer? Just advance and hit stuff turn one?
xeen wrote: I did not want to start a new thread, but has anyone tried a squad of five raptors with 2 x plasma gun and an combi-plasma? It is just under 130, and I use Black Legion (that is what I have been using for years other than Thousand Sons) and with the Stratagem "Let The Galaxy Burn" you can re-roll those ones on the plasma. Anyone try this? Also anyone try 3 bikes with 2 x flamers and combi-flamer? Just advance and hit stuff turn one?
The Plasma Raptors aren’t too shabby, I like to have mine rendezvous with a flying Prince or Lord. Usually Icon of Despair, I have a Butcher Cannon and it can easily force opponent to burn 2CP to stop a squad getting wiped.
Flame bikes are looking decent, especially for Black Legion. That is a lot of OW you can dare a horde to brave.
Expect Necromunda to make Sector Mechanicus games more frequent - both units will take on a new element with the goodies on offer there.
You'd probably want to save Let the Galaxy Burn for a bigger unit than a 5 man squad but it can be useful in a pinch. I think a jump lord or DP would be the way to go for their auras but also they are great units.
Okay, I promised to post a more optimized brigade list for CSM at 2000 points, so here it is:
Spoiler:
Alpha Legion Brigade
HQ:
Chaos Lord: Jump Pack, Blade of the Hydra
Daemon Prince with Wings: 2x Malefic Talons, Daemon of Slaanesh, Intoxicating Elixir (for 1 CP)
Sorcerer: Jump Pack, Force Stave, Mark of Slaanesh
Troops:
13 Chaos Cultists: Autoguns, Mark of Slaanesh
10 Chaos Cultists: Autoguns, Mark of Slaanesh
10 Chaos Cultists: Autoguns, Mark of Slaanesh
10 Chaos Cultists: Autoguns, Mark of Slaanesh
5 Chaos Space Marines: Lascannon, Mark of Slaanesh
5 Chaos Space Marines: Lascannon, Mark of Slaanesh
Elites:
8 Khorne Berzerkers: Chainsword/Chainaxe, Icon of Wrath
8 Khorne Berzerkers: Chainsword/Chainaxe, Icon of Wrath
10 Noise Marines: 8x Sonic Blaster, 2x Blastmaster
Fast Attack:
Hellforged Dreadclaw Drop Pod
Hellforged Dreadclaw Drop Pod
1 Chaos Spawn
1 Chaos Spawn
Heavy Support:
5 Havocs: 4 Autocannons, Mark of Slaanesh
5 Havocs: 4 Autocannons, Mark of Slaanesh
5 Havocs: 4 Lascannons, Mark of Slaanesh
Honestly, even this could be tightened up further, but it's already beyond what I have model-wise (I only have 1 Chaos guy with a Lascannon, and I haven't converted my Drop Pod kits into Dreadclaws yet). I would infiltrate at least one unit of Cultists, probably 2, in order to screen out deepstrikers. The Berzerkers would drop in the Dreadclaws, possibly waiting until turn 2 to do so in order to give the AC Havocs and Noise Boys a chance to thin out the opposing screen units. The jump characters would probably drop with them, although the Sorcerer could drop further back to give Prescience to one of the shooty units if desired. I decided not to include a Helbrute as that would be my only real armor threat and would die very quickly, -1 to hit be damned. I still feel like I don't have enough heavy guns, but with all the mayhem my forward infiltrators and dropping units could cause, it might not matter.
I'd have to agree with whoever it was that said a Brigade is not optimal at 2000 points for CSM. There are just too many corners to cut. This whole thing for me has been kind of a thought exercise to see just how good a Brigade can get. It does allow lots of use of stratagems with all those CP, even making taking a second Relic a good option.
Side note: On my earlier list, there are 6 troops: the big cultist blob, 3 10-man units, the choppy CSM, and the Lascannon CSM unit. If I put 7 units in my post, it was a mistake. I think I put the right number in this one!
My armies (re-counted and updated on 11/1/23, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~15000 Astra Militarum: ~1200 | Adeptus Custodes: ~1900 | Imperial Knights: ~2000 | Sisters of Battle: ~3500 | Leagues of Votann: ~1200 | Tyranids: ~2600 | Stormcast Eternals: ~5000
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Board Games blog | Total models painted in 2023: 40 | Total models painted in 2024: 12 | Current main painting project: Dark Angels
Mr_Rose wrote: Who doesn’t love crazy mutant squawk-puppies? Eh? Nobody, that’s who.
It was me that said brigades are bad at 2k. I stand by it, it's not worth cutting corners on units just for CP's. CP's should elevate your units, so starting off with sub optimal units seems like one step forward and 2 back.
orkswubwub wrote: Are cultists at more than 10 per troop worth it without the ability to negate morale check?
In my opinion you either run minimum squads or a max squad. The 40-man squad can be really good because you can infiltrate it as Alpha Legion and cover the entire board with cultists, and then if they survive turn 1 you can pop Tide of Traitors and get all those points back.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 1. I won't ask someone to change their Legion Trait. HOWEVER, if you won't build around it, I'll point it out.
2. There's 7. There's 4 minimum Cultists, the strange one at 17, a minimum Marine Lascannon, and then the MoK Marines.
With a Brigade, troops are mostly a tax. With Marines, any troop not a Cultist is really a tax.
3. The Cultists aren't in large enough numbers to deny that space without deployment shenanigans, so with Iron Warriors the best way to do it is to use them as your wall, so to speak. With this list, once a couple of squads are killed, Deep Strikes will have their way.
That's another point with the Sorcerer. Either you're going to make use of the Jump Pack or not. You can't purchase upgrades you MIGHT use. You purchase upgrades you WILL use. Either you're running the Sorcerer up or Deep Strike, or you can just lose the Jump Pack and save some points.
The Apostle is also too expensive to do just have sitting back. A Lord with the correct Warlord Trait will do that for exponentially cheaper and let the shooting units do better work if nearby. The Dark Apostle doesn't offer anything in that scenario.
4. He doesn't need to win through melee, but lone melee threats are bad if not used in saturation. There's not a lot, therefore you kill the them in order based on danger factor. That Daemon Prince won't live T1 because of it, as you're correct that the Maulerfiend takes a decent amount of firepower to kill. That means that it's ignored typically.
5. Elaborate on "enough shooting". I listed the dangerous shooting. That's not enough focus.
6. Berserker Marines are fine in Rhinos if you have enough of them. Just one squad ensures the opponent will kill the Rhino and then they gotta run all the way.
1. I get that, thats fair but most of the traits are worth building around anyway. That doesn't mean they can't be, besides his havocs and brute are where most of his fire support is coming from anyway and they still benefit.
2. Hmm I missed the MoK squad so thats a fair assessment. I still think marines are useful, but so far as to take redundant slots.
3. Sure they are, My guard list runs 4 infantry squads, 3 command squads and a bullgryn unit. I just played a game a few nights ago where I successfully denied 6 deepstriking units from ~65% of the table including my backfield after my turn 1 advances. If you make a chevron shape with two units starting 9" away from your deployment corners and coming together at the midpoint atop of your zone and then use the other units as a picket line across the top you can block your zone and 9" away from your zone, and with first turn advances easily push that zone out beyond half field. As I said I have done it with less infantry, his fire base will fill the middle of his deployment. I mean the two spawn alone will eat a 20" circle when you factor their base. Thats massive. If the enemy is shooting cultists and single spawn to make a gap, which BTW is very hard to do considering a single 25mm model needs a 19.5" diameter circle to land, now add a squad, then I would count that as a winning game plan already. If they don't focus fire a cultist unit entirely he can spend 2 CP and run them right back in place.
In regard to the jump pack, I diasagree. Just because he can deploy anywhere doesn't mean you need to drop him in front of the enemy, you can use him to make your opponent screen up, then drop him in your line where hes the most use. Having a 12" fly move is not bad either, with demon shell and smite i have assassinated more then a few characters later on, give him infernal gaze and it's just about a lock.
As for the apostle, I agree with you here, they suck and need to be dropped to less then a lord. But I was working with what he listed. Your right there though, he could easily imporve the army with a lord. An apostle with cultists is just so cool though, I didn't fault him. This is a tactics thread though so I'll concede that for sure.
4. See I have had much different experiences, I ran a keeper of secrets, demonettes and a mauler fiend as a fluffy auxillery against an opponent and between empty rhinos and them charging up I managed to occupy most of his army all game. I know thats anecdotal, but it's the one of many situations where I have used a small contingent to advance, then assault in turns 2-3 and they generally occupy my opponents backfield for far longer then they would have wished. The DP will live well passed turn 1 since they can't shoot it, so if it's sanwiched between a rhino full of berzerkers and a maulerfiend what do you shoot? maulerfiend takes a lot of shots to kill, and the rhino is expendable, I'd say turn 1 he's better off forming a 2 whino wall with the berserkers behind them in case he goes second, whichever rhino lives they hop into and take off in, DP in between the MF.
5. This is subjective obviously, I mean more shooting is always not enough. But with strategems he can double tap a havoc unit and the helbrute so he has some gun.
6. See my above point. He can start the NM and havocs potentially or the marine units in the rhinos with the KB hidden behind them. Hop them into which ever has room first turn. Again, the enemy has a mighty task if they are dropping the mauler fiend, two rhinos and killing enough cultists to form a gap for their deepstrikers, which apparently will drop NEXT turn without him compensating for the gap. I mean, if their army is capable of all that then he's facing some cheese lol. This will never beat a min maxed bobby G list. At that point I'll repeat myself again, don't waste time on a brigade, just take a killy battalion+X formations.
1. More the point that, if you choose a Legion, you need to capitalize on what's unique to them. This doesn't outside the Prince taking the Fleshmetal.
2. And MoK Marines are super bad compared to other options. In fact, regular Marines are bad overall because Chosen, Havocs, and Cult Marines are options that exist.
3. Infantry Squads are supposed to just hang back with their heavy weapon and take orders. Cultists are used as the minimal tax, objective holders, and screening if possible. Nothing of value is being screened here, and they're not capitalizing on the screening potential that Iron Warriors bring, so we should assume holding objectives. The 17 strong one really just throws a curve into the whole thing, as they're not being treated as that tax and to just sit on objectives. The whole troop section is just a mess and has no cohesion or synergy with the rest of the list, which is pretty impressive in of itself with that list not coming to together anyway.
I'm also not talking about blindly throwing the Sorcerer in the front of the enemy. I'm talking about how the Jump Pack Sorcerer doesn't work with the list as it's lacking focus. A Jump Pack Sorcerer should either pop up and Smite/something else, or creep behind your walls of Rhinos as they advance. There's not a lot of stuff to take the attention away from the Sorcerer. There needs to be more mobile stuff with him.
An Apostle with Cultists is neat. However, they clearly meant for the Apostle to go with the melee stuff in this list, and otherwise you can do better using the Iron Warriors Warlord Trait on a Sorcerer (look at that. If I'm gonna make them camp, why ever buy a Jump Pack?) or Lord.
4. You shoot the Maulerfiend as the Rhino turns into Berserker Marines you gotta shoot too. Now if there were multiple Maulerfiends or Rhinos with Berserker Marines that's different. But there isn't. It's a one-of-everything list. Shoot what'll maybe die quicker.
5. Look at how little there is to make double tap! If the Autocannon Havocs die and the Noise Marines (neither of which will be hard to kill), you got the lone Helbrute. Not a solid strategy.
6. Except the Berserker Marines will need the protection the most because if anything looks that direction that can ignore LoS, they're dead. Then that's one less melee threat to worry about.
I'm not even talking about trying to beat Rowboat's parking garage. The list doesn't HAVE synergy or cohesiveness for even a friendly game. It's one of those awful one-of-everything that looks and performs terribly. Like I said, I could make a Necron list that's mediocre and wreck this.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
ArtyomTrityak wrote: What about Chaos Land Raider? It costs 350pts and has who lascanons. Is he good for delivering Rubric flamers?
Actually, I quite like this.
I’ve struggled to find a use for my Land Raider. Everything I’ve put in it seems quite suboptimal.
With DS not having mishaps, anchoring Terminators to a LR seems like a waste.
Berzerkers want delivery, but at their price am niche it’s better to send two squads in Rhinos. Or send a full squad in KAC or Spartan.
PMs and NMs arent shock troops that want a tough transport to take them into a bloodbath.
Chosen probably want my Dreadclaw to carry them to their idea target, especially with the price cut.
I’ve planned to add a Rhino full of Rubric Fire, as a counter to deep strikers. But it seemed like an expensive scarecrow/fire engine.
Putting them in the Raider, deleting the Termagant brood that keeps reinforcing itself, and daring the Genestealers to declare a charge? Popping a CP to give the Sorcerer a useful power? I’m sold.
Perhaps not tournament material, but it looks like an entirely viable option in my meta.
xeen wrote: I did not want to start a new thread, but has anyone tried a squad of five raptors with 2 x plasma gun and an combi-plasma? It is just under 130, and I use Black Legion (that is what I have been using for years other than Thousand Sons) and with the Stratagem "Let The Galaxy Burn" you can re-roll those ones on the plasma. Anyone try this? Also anyone try 3 bikes with 2 x flamers and combi-flamer? Just advance and hit stuff turn one?
They are solid. They are somewhat underused as people prefer to send a big mess of combo plasma equipped terminators with the mark of slaanesh and use the stratagem for twice as much shooting in a single turn. That's 20-40 shots for 500 ish points and the cp, versus 125 for 3-6.
I use the latter when I don't plan to abuse the former, but alpha strikes are nice right now.
Latro_ wrote: just hit on this idea for obilts guys, to speed the whole firing process up
I need to find some dices to do that
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I think in general they do really good podcasts on 40k, I’m not really competitive, but I take things from the casts.
Speaking of which, I remember when Iron warriors rules were leaked people were saying they go shafted. I agreed up until recently, but I’m playing on tables with lots of ruins generally speaking, so ignore cover sounds alright. The Iron warriors relic is solid. Stretegem is fine considering chaos can stack FNP’s on big units and the warlord trait is very good. Seems like a very solid 8th ed package.
So, I think the last time I checked this thread was several months ago. To save me from reading hundreds of posts, has any really interesting tactics been thrown around in this thread? Some new fun stuff, some new meta stuff?
On another note, happy about my Fire Raptor getting the 60pt tax cut but I'm struggling to decide on what to spend those new points: upgrade my sorcerers to Termies for an invul? Fully kit out my havocs with Lascannons? More cultists (ewww)? Anything I haven't thought of?
Also, good to be getting back into slaughtering some loyalists.
Ghorros wrote: The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote: All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
Bryan01 wrote: On the topic of brigades, Command points vs efficiency and chaos, Allies of convenience did podcasts recently on both topics which I think were good:
I think in general they do really good podcasts on 40k, I’m not really competitive, but I take things from the casts.
Speaking of which, I remember when Iron warriors rules were leaked people were saying they go shafted. I agreed up until recently, but I’m playing on tables with lots of ruins generally speaking, so ignore cover sounds alright. The Iron warriors relic is solid. Stretegem is fine considering chaos can stack FNP’s on big units and the warlord trait is very good. Seems like a very solid 8th ed package.
I use Iron Warriors to supplement my Death Guard army. For one, the Tactical Objectives are much better than the DG ones. Cultists are our only real viable Troops tax, and with Objective Secured I try to make the most of them. Our gaming group plays mostly Maelstrom so ObSec comes in very handy. Intend to take small units just to feed into pox walker farms but if need be, I can take a big blob with the Fearless aura warlord trait.
My last game had a Slaanesh Prince with Relic armor, Delightful Agonies, and the +1 wound and 6++++ fnp, on top of the 5+ from the power. This frees up the Nurgle Prince to act as distraction carnifex and bully bodyguard for the warlord Prince. I moved them up with a Bloat drone, spawn and Heldrake on a flank. The warlord never dropped below 8 wounds, and would just gain it back the beginning of the turn. Priceless.
An Abbadon cultist blob might work better, but IW can get it for a discount. And while their trait doesent come up often for vehicles, it has come in handy for dug in infantry.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/11 19:23:25
What is the best artifact for a chaos lord with jump pack to take if running alpha legion and <any> Mark of Chaos?
The puscleaver seems to get very little love but hitting on 2's rerolling 1's and wounding on a 2+ no matter the toughness with AP -2 and D3 damage looks good to me (of course 4 attacks on the chaos lord). Unless it is a vehicle which is relevant but then roll as normal (str 4)
I know the murder sword gets a lot of hype but I don't see the benefit of 1 mortal wound (the puscleaver on average does 1 extra damage per hit) on a -4AP weapon only hitting on str 5 and it has to be a very specific character nominated at the beginning of the game.
I actually think the brass collar is viable, if it is anticipated that the chaos lord deepstrikes in with obliterators the goal is to maximize his save (3+) and the obliterators save (2+ 5++) so using the brass collar to deny smite (and invoke perils) is sneaky nice in my opinion.
Blade of the hydra only seems better than cleaver to me against T4 enemies and below. I didn't math hammer it but I would guess on 1 attack - slightly worse than puscleaver. On a 3 extra attacks better than puscleaver. On a 2 attacks slightly better than puscleaver (against T4). Against anything with higher toughness that is not a vehicle it is dramatically worse almost on all rolls. In general it would seem the puscleaver provides more general benefit - assuming the lord is being used with oblits to maybe charge or sitting behind the oblits waiting to heroically intervene.
I have used the brass collar to great effect before on a lord. It doesn't seem all that at first but the first time my opponent tried to smite me and it ended up putting wounds on her broodlord, and then her hive tyrant perils, suddenly she was wanting to basically skip the psychic phase, she got scared of killing her own guys. Psychological effect can not be ignored.
@orkswubwub - I’m a big fan of the Murder Sword and I think you’re quite right to leave it off your jump lord - I put it on a Steed lord, who together with his extra attack becomes a terrifying scarecrow for a key deep insertion character, or a sheepdog keeping a key aura character away from the front line. Nobody wants to be within a deleter with a 13+3D6” threat radius.
Black Mace is interesting. Good range of uses, capable of finishing off a walker.
You seem to be considering Brass Collar, which I agree is a useful piece of kit, but your Alpha Legion lord can’t take it?
Totally right had to double check codex. No brass collar for me
I guess I just don't see the damage coming from sword being that high and the use is quite narrow as it essentially is best used against one character. You could tie something up in melee and pluck for 1 guaranteed damage (if you can hit on str 5).
Also doesn't the mace fall slightly flat against most vehicles with T8? I guess there are a handful of Vehcs at T7 but the +3 str doesn't seem to do it.