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Lol I love those. Especially the Michael Bay transformer defiler.

On a separate note, the whole flyers can't hold objectives thing, doesnt that stop assault marines with jump packs or deamon princes with wings from holding objectives? Doesn't that seem odd?

Azuza001 wrote:


On a separate note, the whole flyers can't hold objectives thing, doesnt that stop assault marines with jump packs or deamon princes with wings from holding objectives? Doesn't that seem odd?

Flyers, as in "Flyers", "Troops", "Heavy Support", etc.
Not units with the <Fly> keyword.

What are people's thoughts on mutalith vortex beasts,? I keep going back and forth on them..

Ecdain wrote:
What are people's thoughts on mutalith vortex beasts,? I keep going back and forth on them..

i'm going to buy 3 of them once they'll be back in stock

Ecdain wrote:
What are people's thoughts on mutalith vortex beasts,? I keep going back and forth on them..

They are good. They boost the tzaangors most of all, and since I will not be buying any tzaangors I will not bother with Mutaliths either.

Funny idea:
Step 1. Take two spearheads. Cheap HQ and 6 mutaliths each. You now have 12 mutalith beasts.
Step 2. Advance them up the field.
Step 3. Choose the MW aura power every turn for every one of them. When they start going down enjoy your 18" MW spam.
Step 4. Enjoy your army that kills stuff by just being around.

Got to try out a game against some sisters and a few of the new Custodes yesterday, went really well.

Played this list:

27x tzaangors
2 x 10 Rubrics with Soulreapers in Rhinos
Ahriman on disc
Termie sorc with familiar
Defiler twin las+flail

Changeling
Fateskimmer
10x pinks
2x 5 blues 5 brims
6x flamers
3x screamers
exalted flamer

so, more daemons than sons model-wise, more sons than daemons points-wise. Opponent had 3 biker shield-captains in a supreme command, celestine solo, several flamer immos full of sisters, one rhino with repentia+mistress, 2 canoness, 2 exorcists, 1 penitent engine.We played eternal war supply drop, regular terrain rules.

I got first turn with the +1, dropped tzaangors+sorc down on the far flank with one exorcist and one immolator full of sisters, charged and didn't make it to the exorcist but surrounded the immo. Everything else just tried to shoot pretty ineffectively. I should have taken second turn.

Then everything moved up from the sisters, celestine zipped forwards, engaged the defiler to try and tie it up, and got smushed. regular and hurricane bolters and super flamers basically nuke all the horrors out front.

My turn, I move up to attack the two shield captains who came forward (warlord captain had stayed back with the gunline). Psychic powers from one rubric sorceror and Ahriman take out one (4 sixes from Firestorm) and charging with Ahriman, 2 screamers, and the Fateskimmer takes the other down to 2 wounds. Defiler rolls well with daemonforge and kills an exorcist from 8 wounds left.

All the sisters melee units pile forward, and between two shield captains, celestine, a penitent engine and a bunch of repentia ahriman and the fateskimmer and the screamers are super dead. in the fight phase, my rhino with two wounds left who had charged into the fray to soak the shield captains overwatch did his warpflame gargoyle thing and rolled like a goddamn champion, finishing off the shield captain, taking out some sisters, some repentia, some pink horrors, a flamer, damaging the penitent engine, and then (because we interpreted "all units friend and foe" from the FAQ to include him) killed himself, leaving everything out of melee. And yes we did remember characters and vehicles only get hurt on sixes.

My turn, a rubric squad blows away celestine, defiler kills an immolator, the tzaangors finally finish off their immolator, and the other rubric squad kills the repentia. Game is called there.

I think my takeaway from the game was: 1, I like the defiler a lot, 2, custodes should not be played like commander spam tau, the head honchos just do not seem to have the punch to justify their points.

the_scotsman wrote:
Got to try out a game against some sisters and a few of the new Custodes yesterday, went really well.

Played this list:

27x tzaangors
2 x 10 Rubrics with Soulreapers in Rhinos
Ahriman on disc
Termie sorc with familiar
Defiler twin las+flail

Changeling
Fateskimmer
10x pinks
2x 5 blues 5 brims
6x flamers
3x screamers
exalted flamer

so, more daemons than sons model-wise, more sons than daemons points-wise. Opponent had 3 biker shield-captains in a supreme command, celestine solo, several flamer immos full of sisters, one rhino with repentia+mistress, 2 canoness, 2 exorcists, 1 penitent engine.We played eternal war supply drop, regular terrain rules.

I got first turn with the +1, dropped tzaangors+sorc down on the far flank with one exorcist and one immolator full of sisters, charged and didn't make it to the exorcist but surrounded the immo. Everything else just tried to shoot pretty ineffectively. I should have taken second turn.

Then everything moved up from the sisters, celestine zipped forwards, engaged the defiler to try and tie it up, and got smushed. regular and hurricane bolters and super flamers basically nuke all the horrors out front.

My turn, I move up to attack the two shield captains who came forward (warlord captain had stayed back with the gunline). Psychic powers from one rubric sorceror and Ahriman take out one (4 sixes from Firestorm) and charging with Ahriman, 2 screamers, and the Fateskimmer takes the other down to 2 wounds. Defiler rolls well with daemonforge and kills an exorcist from 8 wounds left.

All the sisters melee units pile forward, and between two shield captains, celestine, a penitent engine and a bunch of repentia ahriman and the fateskimmer and the screamers are super dead. in the fight phase, my rhino with two wounds left who had charged into the fray to soak the shield captains overwatch did his warpflame gargoyle thing and rolled like a goddamn champion, finishing off the shield captain, taking out some sisters, some repentia, some pink horrors, a flamer, damaging the penitent engine, and then (because we interpreted "all units friend and foe" from the FAQ to include him) killed himself, leaving everything out of melee. And yes we did remember characters and vehicles only get hurt on sixes.

My turn, a rubric squad blows away celestine, defiler kills an immolator, the tzaangors finally finish off their immolator, and the other rubric squad kills the repentia. Game is called there.

I think my takeaway from the game was: 1, I like the defiler a lot, 2, custodes should not be played like commander spam tau, the head honchos just do not seem to have the punch to justify their points.

Sounds like a good game but you interpretation of warp flame gargoyles was wrong. The cigarette says "all other units, friend or foe". That means the rhino does not set it self on fire.
Yeah, defilers are awesome.

@the_scotsman, I was curious to hear if you have tried summoning as opposed to the demon detachment. I remember you posted a week or so ago that you were thinking of it.

Also how do you find screamers to be?

Screamers look good on paper, haven't tried them on the tabletop though.

Also I have a strange problem. It seems like the consensus for the best way to run competitive Sons is run a Daemon battalion with a Tsons battalion, but my Meta usually doesn't allow duplicate detachments. So I can only usually take one battalion, and it's been throwing off my list building. Any help on what I should be doing with my lists/list ideas?

Change your meta?
Summon the daemons ?

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Change your meta?
Summon the daemons ?

That's a bold strategy Cotton, let's see how this plays out for me

 Swiftblade wrote:
Screamers look good on paper, haven't tried them on the tabletop though.

Also I have a strange problem. It seems like the consensus for the best way to run competitive Sons is run a Daemon battalion with a Tsons battalion, but my Meta usually doesn't allow duplicate detachments. So I can only usually take one battalion, and it's been throwing off my list building. Any help on what I should be doing with my lists/list ideas?

Single detachment? So only way to go above 6 CP is with a brigade? Or can you do multiple detachments as long as they are all TS?

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Swiftblade wrote:
Screamers look good on paper, haven't tried them on the tabletop though.

Also I have a strange problem. It seems like the consensus for the best way to run competitive Sons is run a Daemon battalion with a Tsons battalion, but my Meta usually doesn't allow duplicate detachments. So I can only usually take one battalion, and it's been throwing off my list building. Any help on what I should be doing with my lists/list ideas?

Single detachment? So only way to go above 6 CP is with a brigade? Or can you do multiple detachments as long as they are all TS?

I can use multiple detachments, but no "repeat" detachments. I.E I can have one battalion detachment, but not two battalions. So I could do like Battalion, Outrider, Vanguard, but not Battalion, Battalion, Vanguard.

Ecdain wrote:
What are people's thoughts on mutalith vortex beasts,? I keep going back and forth on them..

I don't run a ton of Tzaangors, but I find the mortal wound bubble to be quite handy. I even want it to be half wounded. 18" on the mortal wounds is just awesome.

 Swiftblade wrote:
Screamers look good on paper, haven't tried them on the tabletop though.

Also I have a strange problem. It seems like the consensus for the best way to run competitive Sons is run a Daemon battalion with a Tsons battalion, but my Meta usually doesn't allow duplicate detachments. So I can only usually take one battalion, and it's been throwing off my list building. Any help on what I should be doing with my lists/list ideas?

They worked well against the biker captains with the herald because they wounded on 3s rerolling 1s with daemonspark. They had a 3++ save so ap-1 was the only AP value that mattered against them, so the multi damage was helpful I making every wound that got through count.

I use them over enlightened because they cost half as much money to collect and synergize with units I already own rather than new units I'd have to buy and paint.

If you're detachment limited run a daemon vanguard. Regular and exalted flamers are both gold.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Ecdain wrote:
What are people's thoughts on mutalith vortex beasts,? I keep going back and forth on them..

I don't run a ton of Tzaangors, but I find the mortal wound bubble to be quite handy. I even want it to be half wounded. 18" on the mortal wounds is just awesome.

Yeah, the 18" range is sweet. I think that if you're taking just one Beast it's a Distraction Carnifex more than anything else. If you want to actually rely on the powers in some way, either the buffs or mortal wounds, I think you need to spam them at least moderately hard. At least three, maybe more, plus some alternate big models to maybe soak some AT fire.

How posable is the vortex beast model? I would hate to field two with the same playful-kitten-with-tentacles pose.

pismakron wrote:
How posable is the vortex beast model? I would hate to field two with the same playful-kitten-with-tentacles pose.

Not posable without cutting it.

pismakron wrote:
How posable is the vortex beast model? I would hate to field two with the same playful-kitten-with-tentacles pose.

Ha, Cant get the image of the MVB batting away at a cat toy out of my head now.

any custom mutaliths out there? I know how I want to customize mine, but if I ever change to adding another, i'd like some fresh ideas.

*EDIT: Also, any way to get one? I cannot find one for sale anywhere...

Just wait, eventually it will come back in stock in 40k repackaged box.

So, I know this was brought up earlier in the thread, without resolution. What do people think of the Chaos Decimator when running with TS? Benefits from the Vehicle and Daemon keywords, Doesn't have Helbrute as a keyword, so it can benefit from Warpflame Gargoyles. Can be tuned for combat, ranged or a mix. Also has access to mortal wound generation through it's Petard Soulburner weapons. All on a base the same size as a Helbrute (60mm).

Have anyone tried many Enligtened? Like 20 of them?

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:
Have anyone tried many Enligtened? Like 20 of them?

I have 12 currently, they are very point effective and output alot of damage. Ignoring Toughness is huge, and shamans make them extremely easy to buff without expending any additional resources.

Debating spears still, it sounds like in the right situation they are great, but bows are super useful as a whole so its a tough decision. (6 of mine are built with bows, the other 6 are just bodies on the discs as I really cant decide so I proxied a couple games with what is built) the bows are super useful, but the potential of the spears is huge.

Just finished my tournament. Lost all 3 games with the following list.

Deamon Prince
Sorcerer in term armor
Arhiman

Squad of 10 rubrics with inferno bolters, 1 with Soulreaper
3 X squad of 10 cultists
4 individual chaos spawn

Helldrake w/ bale flamer
forgefiend w/ hades autocannons and jaws
Defiler w/ scourge and twin laz


I lost all 3 games, however the first game came down to a single enemy model left with me charging but we got the rules wrong, I should have been able to pile in so it probably would have been a win.

2nd game we made a different mistake, I could have won but we misunderstood the Victory conditions so eh, no harm.

3rd game came down to a tie, but the to said no ties so if we would have played another round I would have lost easy so I gave the win to my opponent.


In the end things I found.

Positive : Rubrics are very effective when used well. 1st game they held 2 custodies hq's on bikes up for 2 turns. 2nd they wiped some tau guys with marker lights out and really helped my cause. 3rd game they deep strike in and really gave me the lead early on objective holding.

Positive : Defiler is a champion as always. Love him so much, was an incredible pain for my opponent on all 3 games. Killed so much and would not die.


Negative : Forgefiend didn't do much. Neither did helldrake.

Negative : taking 4 spawn as individuals was bad, same with cultists. It was just giving points to my opponents. However the spawn seem to draw an incredible amount of fire and fear so a squad of 4 or 5 would be awesome.

Still I had a blast so I count it all as a win!

^ Too bad on the losses, but my first reaction is "where is your army?" For a 1500 pts list (I assume?) it seems incredibly small.

The bulk of your army seems to be 30 cultists and 10 rubrics, supported by some characters, a heldrake (crap), a hades-fiend (crap) and a defiler (OK with buffs.)

Not sure what the point of the TA Sorcerer is either. You don't really have anything in Webway Infiltration/Deepstrike that needs Warptime.

I do recommend one big unit of Spawns over several lone Spawns as well.

Yeah I realized by the 2nd game I actually didn't have much going for me if I lost the Drake and the forgefiend.

Sorcerer was ment for getting death hex off if I needed to, with its 2+ thanks to familiar and high Magister, and the stratagem for another 2+ if a mortarion or magnus, or anything that used invulnerable as its main protection showed up drop him and rubrics down in double tap range, dark crystal they dp in to get the required psychers, then remove invulnerable and hit with thousand sons w/ vets stratagem. Turned out I was so focused trying to get protection and cover from this or that I didn't bring enough to do real damage lol.

I have been retooling my list since the tournament and I have already removed the helldrake from the list. I learned a lot today about the Tsons, and am hoping to work on a better one for next tournament.

 MinscS2 wrote:
^ Too bad on the losses, but my first reaction is "where is your army?" For a 1500 pts list (I assume?) it seems incredibly small.

The bulk of your army seems to be 30 cultists and 10 rubrics, supported by some characters, a heldrake (crap), a hades-fiend (crap) and a defiler (OK with buffs.)

Not sure what the point of the TA Sorcerer is either. You don't really have anything in Webway Infiltration/Deepstrike that needs Warptime.

I do recommend one big unit of Spawns over several lone Spawns as well.

Now I do think it's unfair to say the Heldrake is crap, it's done a bunch of work for me in some games. But I do agree it's not good in this particular list.

I'd drop the Heldrake and the Forgefiend and add some Helbrutes if you're worried about anti-armor and a Tzaangor bomb maybe? Fiend+drake will run closer to 400 points, a pair of Tankbuster brutes will run a bit closer to 300. Heck you could even just not run brutes at all and have that mob of Tzaangors be an anti-armor force, they'll poke a baneblade to death with the right buffs and stratagems.

I don't own any tzaangors so that side of the army is out for now.

I have 2 paths I could go down at this point. First option I am considering :

Tsons battalion

Hq -
Arhiman w/ prescience, Temporal manipulation, glamor of tzeench
Deamon prince w/ dark matter crystal, Wings, warp time, deamon strength, talons, warlord trait : otherworldly presence
Deamon prince w/ helm of 3rd eye, Wings, glamor of tzeench, infernal gaze, talons

Troops -
Cultist squad - 20 men w/ autoguns
Cultist Squad - 20 men w/ autoguns
Rubric Squad - 8 men w/ inferno bolters, 1 w/ Soulreaper, asp sorcerer w/ weaver of fate

Heavy -
Defiler w/ twin laz & scourge.


Deamons battalion

Hq -
Changeling w/ gaze of fate
Changecaster w/ Flickering flames & infernal gateway

Troops -
horrors - 20x pink horrors
Horrors - 10x pair of brimstone horrors
Horrors - 10x pair of brimstone horrors


This leaves me at 1451, so I still have some room to mess with stuff. Idea is defiler and Ahriman and changeling hang out in back being screened by brimstone horrors. Rubrics drop in, deamon prince either dark crystal forward or warp times to rubrics. Horrors drop in with changecaster, and between the horrors and rubrics they clear chaff so deamon prince can hit something hard. Second dp could move up on its own or act as counter assault unit. Cultists hold objectives.


Second option.

Hq -
Arhiman w/ prescience, Temporal manipulation, glamor of tzeench
Deamon prince w/ dark matter crystal, warp time, deamon strength, talons, warlord trait : otherworldly presence
Deamon prince w/ helm of 3rd eye, Wings, gaze of fate, Flickering flames, talons

Troops -
Cultist squad - 18 men w/ autoguns
Rubric Squad - 9 men w/ inferno bolters, asp sorcerer w/ weaver of fate
Rubric Squad - 9 men w/ inferno bolters, asp sorcerer w/ weaver of fate

Heavy -
Defiler w/ twin laz & scourge.
Forgefiend w/ 3 ectoplasam cannons.

Dedicated transport -
Rhino w/ 2 combi bolters
Rhino w/ 2 combi bolters

This list is 1500, it's more straight forward. Rubrics in rhinos to get them into a forward firing position. Deamon princes move up with them. Forgefiend also moves with them 1st Turn to get into fire position, defiler sits with Ahriman and hits enemy from distance with cultists working as screen.

I would appreciate any input on which you guys think would work better, or if I am simply barking up wrong tree.

I hate the ecto cannons on the forgefiend personally. And the forgefiend in general tbh. Defiler just seems to do his job a million times better, if i were running a fiend it'd be a mauler with tendrils.

Also, I think you're discounting the offensive powers. I've run Gift of Chaos on Ahriman whenever I've run up against a T3 army and it invariably explodes something. It's the perfect use for a Gaze reroll and can be used to nuke a squad or a character singlehandedly. The range increase up to 12 really helps it out. I'd take an offensive power over Temporal on ahriman every day.