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hi there,

so i had my first game of orks vs eldar (in 8th edition) yesterday, about 1500 points.
this is not a battlereport! these are just my first impression of orks and the key features of 8th edition in general.

i've played orks since 3rd edition and in the few tournament i participated i always ended up in the top 3. i love orks and have a ton of experience with them, across multiple editions of 40k. but all of this is still my personal opinion.

i only played one game so far with 8th edition rules. i surley got multiple rulings wrong... but anyway here are my two cents:

lists:

it was a friendly game... we both just wanted to try out some things and get a general impression of 8th.

LIST BUILDING:
first off, the list building, trying to maximize the CP's was fun. checking the points for each unit was not... going back and fourth between unit sheets and wargear list was a pain in the arse but could be easily fixed.
orks can really spam CP's with MSU tactics. big blobs of guys are reallitivly cheap, elite units are not. bustaz, nobz etc really went up in points.
also i am used to take a assload of rokkits in my army... its not so easy anymore, a buggy wRokkits costs about 70-80 points as are all the rokkits you would normally put here and there (in boysquads, on vehicles etc).
so getting shooty antivehicle stuff into an ork army is costly as hell. i wanted to take some deffkoptaz and try em out... the pointcosts made me puke :(
on the other hand, every seasoned ork player knows the HQ's are the backbone of your army (not those green stinky runts!). be it in older editions or now, they mold our greentide into what we want them to be. painboyz. warbosses and meks shape the orientation of your army and with the new system you can reaaaaaally spam em. this also allows you to take multiple FoC's resulting in an tactical advantage of having alot of CP's. and damn those are useful! rerolling an essential dice or attacking out of order to save a CC unit is damn good.

DEPLOYMENT / DEEPSTRIKE / FIRST TURN CHARGE:
deploying multiple units at once inside a transport is really handy to guarrantee to get the first turn. big bonus for battlewagons!
i got the first turn, so i could try out the sneaky stuff. everything moved foward, the bigblob teleported in front of the enemy. and here is the crux... you advance in the movementphase. BEFORE you do the psychic stuff. i advanced the blob to keep up with the rest of the army (in case i didnt pull off the psychic power), so when i teleported them, they couldnt charge. this is a big deal to consider when jumping big blobs.
the kommandoz deepstriked in the flanks and could pull off their charges (command reroll FTW). THEY ARE AMAZING! 54points for each unit is nearly nothing compared to what they can do. i charged the rangers with one unit and the reapers and a guardian unit with the other mob. annhilating both in turn one. my hopes went up^^
i gotta say i was lucky to pull off the charges, but with MSU you can reliable pull this off.

COVER SYSTEM:
the new cover system sucks!
and i'm not talking about that heavy troops get more survivabilty than lighty armoured troops... its the mechanic that bothers me. i am used to getting a cover save when someone shoots THROUGH terrain. this is not the case anymore! a unit shooting through a ruin into a unit, doesnt give a coversave bonus. you have to BE in cover to claim it. this is really bad. its impossible for big blobs of infantry to claim a save. and nearly impossible for medium units. also the +1 bonus isnt that great to begin with. in my opponents turn he pulverized my big blob in one turn. they either didnt get a save or when there were only a couple of boyz left, the -ap took the bonus away anyhow.
its hard to admit but, orks dont like cover anymore... its slows their charges and doesnt provide that much protection. small shooty elite units profit way more from it.

SHOOTING / REMOVING CASULTIES AS U LIKE:
not much to say here... beeing able to shoot at whatever you like is great. maybe it favors other amries more but its a blast to play that way. you still have to consider to shoot if you wanna charge... since your opponent is likly to pull casulties from the front lines. although that means he has to be careful not to position his special weapons or charaxters in the front lines same goes for the orks... dont put your nobs in front. leave em in the 2nd rank.
overall its funny, fast, easy and challanging at the same time.

CLOSE COMBAT / RETREAT FROM COMBAT / WAAAAGH!:
orks hit hard now, or do they? ok granted i fought against squishy eldar but beeing able to strike first when you charge is a big deal. but on the other hand losing 1 attack per model is also a BIIIIGG hit. more for us orks than for other armies i guess. basic strentgh 4 is nice, especially against squishiy troops... but with AV 10 gone from the game and the new to wound mechanic, its not as big as it sounds. retreating from combat wasnt that big of a deal, but time will tell if it is or not. there are two sides of a coin here. first you CANT tarpit enemies anymore because they can simply retreat, secondly you CAN tarpit enemies by drawning unengaged units into CC by consolidating into them. its really funny how things work out sometimes^^
i guess in bigger games this will be an issue for orks, especially against heavy shooting armies... but well we will see...
one thing to consider however is the WAAAGH!
like i said i had 10 sluggaz 3 manz, grotsnik and a warboss in my BW. they all jumped out and i needed to be very careful on how they deployed. all needed to be in 6" of the warboss and i needed room for the BW so it could drive on and charge too. its all fickily but rewarding if pulled of right. just beware if you dont pull off the charge... it can leave you very vulnerable.
oh and shooting pistols into CC is meh, at least for orks.

POSITIONING:
lets make this one quick. jesus i love it... with templates gone and the abilty to remove casulties as you like, it speeds up the game enormously and gives you alot less headache. nonetheless with synergies in mind, you cant just blob mobs up however you like. positioning is still a straticic mini game. but its far more forgiving. congolining is back, as is wrapping around stuff. still a great new mechanic with lots of stratigic depth to dwell into.
same goes for teleporting troops with the weidboy. dont leave him out in the open! after he teleports something he stays were he was

TRANSPORT / VEHICLES:
yes trukks and BW's can take alot more punishment than before. but they are not invincible. two brightlances took 11 wounds out of the BW in one turn. but then the trukk ate the wrath of 9 scatbikes and only lost a couple of wounds.
beeing able to embark multiple units into a transport is great for orks. like i said its an advantage during deployment but also is way more versaitle than before. just take a look at the passenger of my battlewagon.
whats not so great is the CC effectivness of ork vehicles. the trukk has only 3 attacks and hits on 5's. same goes for the BW, even with a deffrolla its not as punchy as in 5th or 6th when a deathrolla would dish out d6 s10 autohits ikein 5th. its still a great way to eat up overwatch, to tie up nasty troops in CC and to make em even more faster (if you make the charge, of course). ork vehicles are still overprized in my opinion, but it may not be so bad as i initially thought. but maybe its even worse... idk, time will tell

OVERALL IMPRESSION OF 8TH:
its great... i had my resentments... i have nearly 20 years of mixed experience with GW... but overall i'm impressed. the game is way more faster, plays more easily and still got the same amount of tactical and stratigic depth (it just shifted around abit). the only thing i hated was the new coversystem. its clunky, not clear and in general not as good as previous editions. a simple: a unit gets a cover bonus if 50% of its models are obscured by terrain or inside a terrain feature, would be a far more elegant and effective method.

ORKS IN 8TH:
...to be continued

Thank you for your insights. Let us know in the future what first impressions stayed true or what changed for you over time.

Great read. Thanks for taking the time to do that for us. I appreciate what you saying in every regard.
As for cover why not roll to hit and wound against all models in a unit not in or behind cover with los partially blocked first, then those that can benefit from cover next? I see no reason not to... Sure part of a unit will have a save mod that others in the same unit will not but why not?

Nice review - a couple of notes

1.) Your list is illegal Grotsnik (and pain boyz) are elite choices not HQ, as are Runtherds. Our only HQ choices are Warboss, Weirdboy, Big mek, snikrot, Badrukk, Ghaz, Zagstruk. All other characters are elite choices.

2.) Agree on cover orks want LOS blocking terrain, and ruins, everything else is bad for most units.

3.) You don't need to charge what you shoot anymore, so when shooting prior to combat, just don't shoot what you want to charge, if other units are in range.

4.) The loss of a charge attack is more than made up for by hitting on a 3+ and +1 S as you used to hit on a 4+ against most things. In the previous edition, charge round meant 4 attacks hitting 2 on average, now we have 3 attacks hitting 2 on average. So there is no change unless you roll super hot.

5.) S4 is a really big deal, if they were still S3 they would wound T6 on 6s. So it is better than S3 against T3,4,6,7 Which are all of the most common toughness values, except T5.

6.) Tarpitting is still a bit of a thing unless the enemy has a rule allowing them to do anything other than just move away from combat. If they move away, and you move and charge again they are stuck. The issue is that we cannot hide in combat.

Curious to know if you won

 jeff white wrote:
Great read. Thanks for taking the time to do that for us. I appreciate what you saying in every regard.
As for cover why not roll to hit and wound against all models in a unit not in or behind cover with los partially blocked first, then those that can benefit from cover next? I see no reason not to... Sure part of a unit will have a save mod that others in the same unit will not but why not?

Because the receiving player gets to decide who dies? Your method would mean having to start allocating casualties during the to-hit part of the process and the game doesn't work like that anymore.

This approach keeps it pretty simple - want a cover bonus? Keep all of your guys in cover! yes, this benefits shooting units more than assaulting units on most tables but i suspect that's intended.

 Blacksteel wrote:

 jeff white wrote:
Great read. Thanks for taking the time to do that for us. I appreciate what you saying in every regard.
As for cover why not roll to hit and wound against all models in a unit not in or behind cover with los partially blocked first, then those that can benefit from cover next? I see no reason not to... Sure part of a unit will have a save mod that others in the same unit will not but why not?

Because the receiving player gets to decide who dies? Your method would mean having to start allocating casualties during the to-hit part of the process and the game doesn't work like that anymore.

This approach keeps it pretty simple - want a cover bonus? Keep all of your guys in cover! yes, this benefits shooting units more than assaulting units on most tables but i suspect that's intended.

Cover also hurts shooting units more than assaulting units as assault ignores cover. So it ups their durability, while at the same time reducing their firepower against other units in cover.

Cover rules favor shooty defending units. You can almost never get cover if you're an attacker. And never if you're a horde attacker. My impression after the first game is that orks actually went down in durability point for point.

Breng77 wrote:
Nice review - a couple of notes

Spoiler:

1.) Your list is illegal Grotsnik (and pain boyz) are elite choices not HQ, as are Runtherds. Our only HQ choices are Warboss, Weirdboy, Big mek, snikrot, Badrukk, Ghaz, Zagstruk. All other characters are elite choices.

2.) Agree on cover orks want LOS blocking terrain, and ruins, everything else is bad for most units.

3.) You don't need to charge what you shoot anymore, so when shooting prior to combat, just don't shoot what you want to charge, if other units are in range.

4.) The loss of a charge attack is more than made up for by hitting on a 3+ and +1 S as you used to hit on a 4+ against most things. In the previous edition, charge round meant 4 attacks hitting 2 on average, now we have 3 attacks hitting 2 on average. So there is no change unless you roll super hot.

5.) S4 is a really big deal, if they were still S3 they would wound T6 on 6s. So it is better than S3 against T3,4,6,7 Which are all of the most common toughness values, except T5.

6.) Tarpitting is still a bit of a thing unless the enemy has a rule allowing them to do anything other than just move away from combat. If they move away, and you move and charge again they are stuck. The issue is that we cannot hide in combat.

1. yes i know! i thought orks had plenty of good options in the HQ section... but that isnt the case. we can still spam some cheap HQ's mainly the big mek and the weirdboy.
2. totally. cover sucks. biggest issue for me is: LOS blocking doesnt provide cover.
3. yes. problem is though... orks wanna charge alot of units. some boyz really pissed of my MANz unit after they shot em out of charge distance but well itwas the same problem in 7th^^

4. no i cant agree there. yes everyone doesnt get the +1 attack for 2CCW across all armies... but it hurts especially the sluggaboyz. this extra attack was essential since we could spam it.

5. cant totally agree here... yes s4 is amazing! BUT and this is a big BUTT... orks are screwed if they dont charge. our units usually can dish out more damage than they can tank. so if you are charged you'll usually get your ass kicked. so going from FC to +1 s flat isnt that huge of a deal. better yes, but not as it would have been in 7th.

6. yes and not beeing able to hide in combat hurts alot

 davou wrote:
Curious to know if you won

i did... a close victory though... but well, lots of errors were made so... meh^^

Deepstrike happens at the end of movement, so unless stated otherwise you cannot DS then advance

orks win! yaya!

RedNoak wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Nice review - a couple of notes

Spoiler:

1.) Your list is illegal Grotsnik (and pain boyz) are elite choices not HQ, as are Runtherds. Our only HQ choices are Warboss, Weirdboy, Big mek, snikrot, Badrukk, Ghaz, Zagstruk. All other characters are elite choices.

2.) Agree on cover orks want LOS blocking terrain, and ruins, everything else is bad for most units.

3.) You don't need to charge what you shoot anymore, so when shooting prior to combat, just don't shoot what you want to charge, if other units are in range.

4.) The loss of a charge attack is more than made up for by hitting on a 3+ and +1 S as you used to hit on a 4+ against most things. In the previous edition, charge round meant 4 attacks hitting 2 on average, now we have 3 attacks hitting 2 on average. So there is no change unless you roll super hot.

5.) S4 is a really big deal, if they were still S3 they would wound T6 on 6s. So it is better than S3 against T3,4,6,7 Which are all of the most common toughness values, except T5.

6.) Tarpitting is still a bit of a thing unless the enemy has a rule allowing them to do anything other than just move away from combat. If they move away, and you move and charge again they are stuck. The issue is that we cannot hide in combat.

1. yes i know! i thought orks had plenty of good options in the HQ section... but that isnt the case. we can still spam some cheap HQ's mainly the big mek and the weirdboy.
2. totally. cover sucks. biggest issue for me is: LOS blocking doesnt provide cover.
3. yes. problem is though... orks wanna charge alot of units. some boyz really pissed of my MANz unit after they shot em out of charge distance but well itwas the same problem in 7th^^

4. no i cant agree there. yes everyone doesnt get the +1 attack for 2CCW across all armies... but it hurts especially the sluggaboyz. this extra attack was essential since we could spam it.

5. cant totally agree here... yes s4 is amazing! BUT and this is a big BUTT... orks are screwed if they dont charge. our units usually can dish out more damage than they can tank. so if you are charged you'll usually get your ass kicked. so going from FC to +1 s flat isnt that huge of a deal. better yes, but not as it would have been in 7th.

6. yes and not beeing able to hide in combat hurts alot

 davou wrote:
Curious to know if you won

i did... a close victory though... but well, lots of errors were made so... meh^^

2.) I mean't full LOS blockers, if you cannot be seen you cannot be shot. Doesn't help huge squads, but Trukks etc benefit.

3.) True, but if you can shoot things that you don't think you will be charging, or those with especially short charges you can mitigate a lot more than 7th where you had to charge what you shot.

4.) Math doesn't back you up at all. 3 attacks hitting on 3s is identical to 4 attacks hitting on 4s on average. And every round past round 1 it is better to have 3 attacks hitting on 3s than 3 attacks hitting on 4s. The +1 of two weapons is off set by the +1 for a choppa so only the +1 for charge has been lost, and only if you have less than 20 models. The loss of +1 attack for charging I think actually helps orks because it improves our ability to be charged by units. Say a tactical squad, previously could have 20 attacks on the charge, now they will only have 10. Losing the +1 charge bonus hurts low attack units much more than things like Boyz with 3 attacks (Marines have 50% less attacks, Orks, at worst, are -25%.)

5.) Depends on a lot of things, what is charging?, how many models do you have? did your opponent charge with multiple units, or charge more than one of yours? If so you can interrupt with command points and still be S4. Are you locked in with a durable, but not very killy unit? S4 matters a lot in that case. Say a dreadnaught charged your 20 man squad to tie you up. It kills 2 models per round so not wiping you out. If we were S3 we might do 2 wounds because needing 6s to wound, this doubles with S4, meaning realistically in 2 rounds of combat we can be out with only minimal losses vs needing 4+ rounds of combat. At S3 it would be pretty likely that Rhinos could tie up our squads all game, just by repeatedly charging. It is also important to note that this buff of +1 s also applies to nobz and Warbosses which means they have much higher S with powerklaws, which means that a warboss is wounding T6 models on a 2+, which he would not otherwise.