Excessive HQ requirements in 8th ed Force Org charts

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**Dakka Wolf**

Three army players talking inside my head on this topic.

The Space Mutts player - Fine by me, my army already uses that many HQs.

The Deathwatch player - 75 point Libby tax to take more specialised units? Last edition I had to take nearly 300 points to pull a stunt like that.

The Nids player - My troops don't suck anymore!!!!!

**Formerly Wu**

Trickstick wrote:
Formerly Wu wrote:
Which just leads to armies where multiple captains are running the show while their lieutenants are nowhere to be found. Or, for patrol detachments, captains leading a single squad of Guard around.

Platoon Commanders should absolutely have been HQs.

Well there is a wide range of ranks that can fill the two options. Platoon commanders can be Lieutenants or 2nd Lieutenants. For the Company Command, you could have Captains, Majors, Colonels or even Generals if you want. There is even the freedom to use any ranks from history or make up your own. You could have a Shield-Centurion leading your 100 man platoons. Glancing at the 5th Edition codex, they give some examples of different company commander titles: Major, Byzarr, Hetman, Spear-Chief, Prime-Warden or High Preator. The cultural variance across the Imperium is extreme, far greater than the amount of cultures currently found on Earth. Just because Cadian equipment is common in games, doesn't mean that the meat wielding it is the same at all.

I think that if I ever field multiple commanders, I will probably give one a piece of wargear the elevates him above the rest. That model would be the Colonel, with any other models being Majors or Captains.

I get that. And I do have additional Colonel models that I could use. But for every of those senior officers there's going to be ten times as many officers junior to them. When those junior officers share slots with their command squads, their senior officer's command squads, the (very necessary) commissars, plus any advisors or support, you're obviously not going to see many of them. So you get situations where the officer ranks that should be closest to the fight are nowhere to be found, while their superiors are risking their lives. That's what I have a problem with.

**NenkotaMoon**

Dakka Wolf wrote:
Three army players talking inside my head on this topic.

The Space Mutts player - Fine by me, my army already uses that many HQs.

The Deathwatch player - 75 point Libby tax to take more specialised units? Last edition I had to take nearly 300 points to pull a stunt like that.

The Nids player - My troops don't suck anymore!!!!!

Guard Player- Marines can have larger squads than I can?

**Jaxler**

Marmatag wrote:
Luciferian wrote:
Meh, I'm ready to model up as many Librarians as it takes...

Considering you can only attempt to cast smite more than once - every other spell is one attempt per turn - you might consider techmarines.

One Libby is grey Knights, the other is blood angels

**fe40k**

NenkotaMoon wrote:
Dakka Wolf wrote:
Three army players talking inside my head on this topic.

The Space Mutts player - Fine by me, my army already uses that many HQs.

The Deathwatch player - 75 point Libby tax to take more specialised units? Last edition I had to take nearly 300 points to pull a stunt like that.

The Nids player - My troops don't suck anymore!!!!!

Guard Player- Marines can have larger squads than I can?

This actually works out as a benefit; more detachments - more command points. Plus, weapons that shoot 10+ shots are wasted if they shoot at a squad of only 10 models.also, you can more easily rank and screen for your other units, minimizing losses depending on placement. Keep a commander nearby, and even if you get consolidated into with cc, you can Fix Bayonets order, or fall back and Get Back In There.

Platoons have been exchanged with detachments as a whole. Sure, it feels weird, and will cause you to go second most of the time - but you can field far larger total troop counts, at higher command point values to boot. Plus, small, cheap infantry squads means more elites/heavies/etc along side all these detachments.

I think IG came out massively ahead this edition.

**GodDamUser**

fe40k wrote:

This actually works out as a benefit; more detachments - more command points. Plus, weapons that shoot 10+ shots are wasted if they shoot at a squad of only 10 models.also, you can more easily rank and screen for your other units, minimizing losses depending on placement. Keep a commander nearby, and even if you get consolidated into with cc, you can Fix Bayonets order, or fall back and Get Back In There.

Platoons have been exchanged with detachments as a whole. Sure, it feels weird, and will cause you to go second most of the time - but you can field far larger total troop counts, at higher command point values to boot. Plus, small, cheap infantry squads means more elites/heavies/etc along side all these detachments.

I think IG came out massively ahead this edition.

The downside is that they are always going 2nd, unless they can seize

**NivlacSupreme**

Nazrak wrote:
Anyone else feeling a bit unsettled by the necessity of so many HQ units if you want to use a bunch of Troops and/or gain a decent amount of command points? The least restricted army for this seems to be Space Marines, and they only get 3 different guys before they start having to double up. It's even worse for armies like admech, who not only have just a single non-named-character choice, but only have one model that can represent it. Seems to me like we're going to see a lot of armies with multiples of the same model, which is kinda goofy both from a modelling and fluff perspective. What self-respecting Ork Warboss is going to share leadership of a Warband with another Warboss, instead of kicking his head in to prove who's REALLY in charge, before leading the boyz into battle?

I wonder if it might have been a better idea to have made a lot of the now-Elites models that were previously part of units move into some sort of sub-HQ role, which you can fill additional HQ slots with once you've already got your warlord?

Couldn't Orks take Painboyz or something?

**vipoid**

Formerly Wu wrote:
Which just leads to armies where multiple captains are running the show while their lieutenants are nowhere to be found. Or, for patrol detachments, captains leading a single squad of Guard around.

Platoon Commanders should absolutely have been HQs.

It wouldn't matter. They'd still cost 2/3 of what a Company Commander costs, whilst being half as good.

**tneva82**

vipoid wrote:
Formerly Wu wrote:
Which just leads to armies where multiple captains are running the show while their lieutenants are nowhere to be found. Or, for patrol detachments, captains leading a single squad of Guard around.

Platoon Commanders should absolutely have been HQs.

It wouldn't matter. They'd still cost 2/3 of what a Company Commander costs, whilst being half as good.

But being in 2 bodies rather than one thus being harder to remove.

Generally if you have 2 guys that are equal to 1 in ability when combined 2 needs to be more expensive.

**Trickstick**

tneva82 wrote:
vipoid wrote:
Formerly Wu wrote:
Which just leads to armies where multiple captains are running the show while their lieutenants are nowhere to be found. Or, for patrol detachments, captains leading a single squad of Guard around.

Platoon Commanders should absolutely have been HQs.

It wouldn't matter. They'd still cost 2/3 of what a Company Commander costs, whilst being half as good.

But being in 2 bodies rather than one thus being harder to remove.

Generally if you have 2 guys that are equal to 1 in ability when combined 2 needs to be more expensive.

Also, sometimes you don't need two orders. For instance, if you just need someone to order a conscript squad or jump out of a Valkyrie with some veterans, then you don't need the extra order. I'm not saying that Company Commanders are not a better choice most of the time, but there are times when they are a waste of points.

**pigasuspig**

NivlacSupreme wrote:
Nazrak wrote:
Anyone else feeling a bit unsettled by the necessity of so many HQ units if you want to use a bunch of Troops and/or gain a decent amount of command points? The least restricted army for this seems to be Space Marines, and they only get 3 different guys before they start having to double up. It's even worse for armies like admech, who not only have just a single non-named-character choice, but only have one model that can represent it. Seems to me like we're going to see a lot of armies with multiples of the same model, which is kinda goofy both from a modelling and fluff perspective. What self-respecting Ork Warboss is going to share leadership of a Warband with another Warboss, instead of kicking his head in to prove who's REALLY in charge, before leading the boyz into battle?

I wonder if it might have been a better idea to have made a lot of the now-Elites models that were previously part of units move into some sort of sub-HQ role, which you can fill additional HQ slots with once you've already got your warlord?

Couldn't Orks take Painboyz or something?

Minor characters like Painboyz are Elites now.

**Karoline Dianne**

Since the Imperium and Chaos factions have so much overlap between their respective forces, and can now be mixed and matched freely (Guardsmen with Space Marines and a little Admech sprinkled in, in a single legal detachment), I don't see this as a problem in most cases.

For the more solo factions like Tau and Necrons, I can see things getting a little tight, but for the rest of the armies? Does it really hurt to take a second Captain, or a barebones Chaos Lord who just sits behind your gunners and glares at them when they roll 1's? If it REALLY is a dealbreaker, just bring an Inquisitor, a Herald, or whatever.

Try something silly or fun. Bring a force of Guardsmen lead by a space marine chapter master, or put a Chaos Lord on a Juggernaut at the helm of a bunch of bloodletters. Things are a bit more freeform now with how allies work, so borrow HQ's from anything you share Faction Keywords with.

**SilverAlien**

The Admech are a little bit hurt, the dominus is good, but he costs a fair amount and you don't relaly need more than 1-2. Thankfully, Inquisitors are nice and cheap, give some solid buffs, and can be psykers. Considering our army otherwise lacks any psychic abilities, including denial, this is a good idea. Primaris psykers are also dirt cheap psychic HQ choices, albeit less useful imo.

**Nazrak**

Karoline Dianne wrote:
Since the Imperium and Chaos factions have so much overlap between their respective forces, and can now be mixed and matched freely (Guardsmen with Space Marines and a little Admech sprinkled in, in a single legal detachment), I don't see this as a problem in most cases.

For the more solo factions like Tau and Necrons, I can see things getting a little tight, but for the rest of the armies? Does it really hurt to take a second Captain, or a barebones Chaos Lord who just sits behind your gunners and glares at them when they roll 1's? If it REALLY is a dealbreaker, just bring an Inquisitor, a Herald, or whatever.

Try something silly or fun. Bring a force of Guardsmen lead by a space marine chapter master, or put a Chaos Lord on a Juggernaut at the helm of a bunch of bloodletters. Things are a bit more freeform now with how allies work, so borrow HQ's from anything you share Faction Keywords with.

This is kind of what I was taking issue with though; it seems we're being encouraged to take a lot of HQs, and it does any seem like there are many ways to do this without flying in the face of the fluff. "Does it really hurt to take another captain?" Well not necessarily, but it's kind of goofy from a narrative perspective in most circumstances unless you're fielding well over 100 marines.

**Galas**

If you are concerned about fluff and narrative, you should play narrative, where those restrictions doesn't matter...

And I'm saying this in no aggresive way. People should assume that matched is where the fluff goes to die and to be grinded into the hamburgers of "balance"

**captain bloody fists**

mmzero252 wrote:
If you plan to run Sisters, be prepared to have Celestine, maybe Uriah, and then infinite canonesses. That's all they got for HQs.

Amen to that.

**Formerly Wu**

Galas wrote:
If you are concerned about fluff and narrative, you should play narrative, where those restrictions doesn't matter...

And I'm saying this in no aggresive way. People should assume that matched is where the fluff goes to die and to be grinded into the hamburgers of "balance"

Battle-forged armies, Command Points, and Stratagems still exist in Narrative.

**SilverAlien**

Asmodai wrote:
I find it kinda of annoying since my 7e Talons of the Emperor army of Custodes and Sisters of Silence doesn't really work without taking HQs from outside those factions - cheap Inquisitors, Primaris Psykers or maybe something choppy on their own like a Gravis Captain or Celestine.

I might "count-as" my Tribune as a Space Marine Captain to meet the HQ tax, even if it doesn't synergize with the rest of the army.

Go with a deathwatch captain as they still get the spear, or a inquisitor with the anti psyker boltgun for a sister of silence HQ stand in.

**tneva82**

Galas wrote:
And I'm saying this in no aggresive way. People should assume that matched is where the fluff goes to die and to be grinded into the hamburgers of "balance"

As if those were mutually exclusive. Except by GW designers.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

captain bloody fists wrote:
mmzero252 wrote:
If you plan to run Sisters, be prepared to have Celestine, maybe Uriah, and then infinite canonesses. That's all they got for HQs.

Amen to that.

Howabout infinite celestines? Unlike say Ghazkhull she's not limited to max 1...

Of course is 2 worth it in 2k game is another thing.

**Purifier**

I don't mind that my ad mech has only a single HQ choice (and Cawl)... I mind that it only has one model. Ideas how to kitbash more different tech priests welcome! I think I'll start by getting the plastic Enginseer for one. He fits into the army flawlessly.

**Arachnofiend**

SilverAlien wrote:
The Admech are a little bit hurt, the dominus is good, but he costs a fair amount and you don't relaly need more than 1-2. Thankfully, Inquisitors are nice and cheap, give some solid buffs, and can be psykers. Considering our army otherwise lacks any psychic abilities, including denial, this is a good idea. Primaris psykers are also dirt cheap psychic HQ choices, albeit less useful imo.

Be warned, even a single non-AdMech unit in a detachment and every AdMech unit in that detachment loses Canticles.

**DarkStarSabre**

Arachnofiend wrote:
SilverAlien wrote:
The Admech are a little bit hurt, the dominus is good, but he costs a fair amount and you don't relaly need more than 1-2. Thankfully, Inquisitors are nice and cheap, give some solid buffs, and can be psykers. Considering our army otherwise lacks any psychic abilities, including denial, this is a good idea. Primaris psykers are also dirt cheap psychic HQ choices, albeit less useful imo.

Be warned, even a single non-AdMech unit in a detachment and every AdMech unit in that detachment loses Canticles.

And people are wondering why some of us Death Guard players are flipping tables about the random exclusion of Terminators, Chosen, Havocs and Daemon Engines apart from the Defiler.

This. This is why. This is almost a preview of how the Codex benefits will work - detachment must be 'All X' or you lose it.

That aside, at least it specifies Detachment - which means AdMech armies will probably end up with less CP having to take a variety of detachments.

**Purifier**

Well I just threw together a kitbash yesterday to give me a Gizmo Duck priest for my ad mech

Here we goooo

**vipoid**

Purifier wrote:
Well I just threw together a kitbash yesterday to give me a Gizmo Duck priest for my ad mech

Now that's a reference I didn't expect to hear in the context of 40k.

Seriously though, that looks great.

**Breng77**

DarkStarSabre wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
SilverAlien wrote:
The Admech are a little bit hurt, the dominus is good, but he costs a fair amount and you don't relaly need more than 1-2. Thankfully, Inquisitors are nice and cheap, give some solid buffs, and can be psykers. Considering our army otherwise lacks any psychic abilities, including denial, this is a good idea. Primaris psykers are also dirt cheap psychic HQ choices, albeit less useful imo.

Be warned, even a single non-AdMech unit in a detachment and every AdMech unit in that detachment loses Canticles.

And people are wondering why some of us Death Guard players are flipping tables about the random exclusion of Terminators, Chosen, Havocs and Daemon Engines apart from the Defiler.

This. This is why. This is almost a preview of how the Codex benefits will work - detachment must be 'All X' or you lose it.

That aside, at least it specifies Detachment - which means AdMech armies will probably end up with less CP having to take a variety of detachments.

We still don't see it because as you state it mentions detachment. So you take a death guard detachment, and a non-death guard detachment, problem solved. If at some point there are benefits for your entire army being from one faction, then you have a valid complaint. I don't think AD Mech will be particularly poor considering most armies will likely be in the 5-8 range for command points at 2k.

**DarkStarSabre**

Breng77 wrote:

We still don't see it because as you state it mentions detachment. So you take a death guard detachment, and a non-death guard detachment, problem solved. If at some point there are benefits for your entire army being from one faction, then you have a valid complaint.

The AoS benefits for specific armies rely on the entire army being that one Faction - so there is a precedent. But awfully nice of you to consider what is and isn't a valid complaint.

And should your determination of what is and is not a valid complaint be confirmed as 'valid' then you will have a valid opinion.

Two can play this game.

**carldooley**

with the necessity of so many HQs, is this a herohammer edition?

**Purifier**

carldooley wrote:
with the necessity of so many HQs, is this a herohammer edition?

That would necessitate one hero. It's that you have to take an HQ tax with every detachment, and you want a couple of detachments to get some command points if nothing else. Furthermore, HQs buffing infantry is big this edition, so those HQ taxes aren't horrible. They're gonna run around with units, making them better. But that doesn't make it herohammer.

**Daedalus81**

DarkStarSabre wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
SilverAlien wrote:
The Admech are a little bit hurt, the dominus is good, but he costs a fair amount and you don't relaly need more than 1-2. Thankfully, Inquisitors are nice and cheap, give some solid buffs, and can be psykers. Considering our army otherwise lacks any psychic abilities, including denial, this is a good idea. Primaris psykers are also dirt cheap psychic HQ choices, albeit less useful imo.

Be warned, even a single non-AdMech unit in a detachment and every AdMech unit in that detachment loses Canticles.

And people are wondering why some of us Death Guard players are flipping tables about the random exclusion of Terminators, Chosen, Havocs and Daemon Engines apart from the Defiler.

This. This is why. This is almost a preview of how the Codex benefits will work - detachment must be 'All X' or you lose it.

That aside, at least it specifies Detachment - which means AdMech armies will probably end up with less CP having to take a variety of detachments.

Maybe those admech players should be taking one of these detachments? As has been stated a MILLION times DG can take a second detachment. Sorry that you don't have T5 havocs, but you're just going to have to wait - until then you have cheaper havocs.

Spoiler:

**jade_angel**

carldooley wrote:
pigasuspig wrote:
Tau have gotten a HARD push towards Fire Warriors: the humble Shas'la is cheaper, and the cheap foot commanders are necessary to get command points, while suits have all nearly doubled in point cost.

And my Kroot, who I only managed to use once in 7e, have exchanged Stealth and Infiltrate for a rule called "Stealthy Infiltrators" which does neither of these things. Oh well, good thing I love my Kroot models

prefacing with the fact that I haven't had a chance to read the rulebook (or leaks yet), (though I did get access to the Tau Index) I was smitten with the idea that I could take Longstrike as a HQ. (Even if my stormsurges may ultimately be cheaper to field than riptides). And if I may just say. . . wtf happened to seeker and destroyer missiles?!? one shots that only hit on a six (regardless of buffs)?

Markerlights are the secret. If you have 2 or more marker tokens on a target, you can fire seeker/destroyer missiles at full BS. This is quite nice on a Hammerhead or Skyray, say, especially if you can get 5 tokens. (BS 3+, +1 to hit, re-roll 1s = 2+ rerolling, mortal wounds if you hit. Very reliable damage indeed.)