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mhalko1 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

mhalko1 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

mhalko1 wrote:

 axisofentropy wrote:
GW said on its twitch stream you cannot re-roll your opponent's dice, for what that's worth. yes that's not "official" but hopefully that will make it into an imminent FAQ.

Also, that's pretty official in my book

You can feel it's as official as you want, but some guy on a forum saying that in a live video they saw one time GW said thus is not something every player has access to. GW needs to make a real statement or it's not official.

But it's the official Live Stream of GW as advertised on THEIR Community Website AND promoted on their official Facebook Page, As it's played by THEIR official game-testers. It was said in the official GW TWITCH as well, by more people who officially play-tested the game. How much more official do you need it to be? NO You cannot re-roll your opponents dice roll. There isn't a discussion here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not everything needs an FAQ use common sense and be decent humans versus WAAC players, that's the whole reason we have 8th Edition to begin with

It needs to be posted, in writing, as a document that is easily accessible for all players. That document needs to be posted in a place that is clearly labeled as a place for FAQs and Errata.

Keep in mind that 12 months from now the book will still be written the same way and some new player who is not looking through every twitch recording for the last year needs to be able to get that clarification. Until GW posts is in a way that every person who plays can reasonably see the ruling there is no ruling.

1. It's the businesses discretion how they make their rules official including putting it in a video you have to find .

2. But yes they should make it easier for people who get into the game late and don't know to look for that.

3. It doesn't change the fact that they said it, so NO to re-rolling opponents dice, This wouldn't have flown anyway because of the image from the core rulebook. every mention of reroll says you reroll not your opponent rerolls.

When I spend MY Command Point I can pick up YOUR dice and attempt to change the end result with MY reroll. Of course I would be happy to let you roll it as it's polite to not touch your stuff. But RAW there is nothing that specifies it cannot happen and the permission I have is to reroll any 1 dice. "Any 1 dice" is very broad and actually includes all the dice.

mhalko1 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Lance845 wrote:

mhalko1 wrote:

 axisofentropy wrote:
GW said on its twitch stream you cannot re-roll your opponent's dice, for what that's worth. yes that's not "official" but hopefully that will make it into an imminent FAQ.

Also, that's pretty official in my book

You can feel it's as official as you want, but some guy on a forum saying that in a live video they saw one time GW said thus is not something every player has access to. GW needs to make a real statement or it's not official.

But it's the official Live Stream of GW as advertised on THEIR Community Website AND promoted on their official Facebook Page, As it's played by THEIR official game-testers. It was said in the official GW TWITCH as well, by more people who officially play-tested the game. How much more official do you need it to be? NO You cannot re-roll your opponents dice roll. There isn't a discussion here.

And GW has had clear errors in battle reports posted in White Dwarf. It needs a FAQ, not just a Twitch video as the FAQs are GW's only official source of rules clarifications.

I am not even saying your interpretation is wrong. I am saying right now there is a good argument that RAW you can reroll ANY dice including the opponents. RAI it could be otherwise. But the core rules right now are full of holes like this (and some WAY WAY worse).

Right now there are BatReps where people are using it to force rerolls on opponents dice. So it's not as cut and dry as you assume. And when I am at the table if my opponent approached me with the interpretation of the rule that he could force rerolls on my dice I would be some kind of lunatic to tell him to go look for a twitch recording and watch the whole video to learn that one time GW said something that might contradict his understanding of the rule. I wouldn't stop the game for him to try to do that. I wouldn't suggest that he do that. And anyone who would is more of a WAAC player than the guy who just read the poorly written language in the rule book.

 Lance845 wrote:

mhalko1 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

mhalko1 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

mhalko1 wrote:

 axisofentropy wrote:
GW said on its twitch stream you cannot re-roll your opponent's dice, for what that's worth. yes that's not "official" but hopefully that will make it into an imminent FAQ.

Also, that's pretty official in my book

You can feel it's as official as you want, but some guy on a forum saying that in a live video they saw one time GW said thus is not something every player has access to. GW needs to make a real statement or it's not official.

But it's the official Live Stream of GW as advertised on THEIR Community Website AND promoted on their official Facebook Page, As it's played by THEIR official game-testers. It was said in the official GW TWITCH as well, by more people who officially play-tested the game. How much more official do you need it to be? NO You cannot re-roll your opponents dice roll. There isn't a discussion here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not everything needs an FAQ use common sense and be decent humans versus WAAC players, that's the whole reason we have 8th Edition to begin with

It needs to be posted, in writing, as a document that is easily accessible for all players. That document needs to be posted in a place that is clearly labeled as a place for FAQs and Errata.

Keep in mind that 12 months from now the book will still be written the same way and some new player who is not looking through every twitch recording for the last year needs to be able to get that clarification. Until GW posts is in a way that every person who plays can reasonably see the ruling there is no ruling.

1. It's the businesses discretion how they make their rules official including putting it in a video you have to find .

2. But yes they should make it easier for people who get into the game late and don't know to look for that.

3. It doesn't change the fact that they said it, so NO to re-rolling opponents dice, This wouldn't have flown anyway because of the image from the core rulebook. every mention of reroll says you reroll not your opponent rerolls.

When I spend MY Command Point I can pick up YOUR dice and attempt to change the end result with MY reroll. Of course I would be happy to let you roll it as it's polite to not touch your stuff. But RAW there is nothing that specifies it cannot happen and the permission I have is to reroll any 1 dice. "Any 1 dice" is very broad and actually includes all the dice.

"
NO YOU AREN'T! you are definitely not going to pick up MY die with the "reroll" you aren't allowed to make. You do not ever get to make the roll for someone else why would this be any different certain abilities say they force your opponent to reroll but you do not get to reroll anything of mine.

 davou wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:


Keep in mind that 12 months from now the book will still be written the same way and some new player who is not looking through every twitch recording for the last year needs to be able to get that clarification. Until GW posts is in a way that every person who plays can reasonably see the ruling there is no ruling.

no.... This is such a stretch of RAW that EVERYONE realizes that any hint that you could do this is an oversight and an attempt at semantic surgery on the rules text to an extreme level. No new players are going assume you can do this, and if they do, ANY other players will address it quickly.

It's like if I was playing a game of magic, and when it was my turn to play a land, I went and picked up a land that my opponent had put down and played it on my field.

It's not like that at all. The rules for Magic don't give you permission to pick up a land that your opponent had put down.

The rules for 8th Edition just tell you that you can re-roll a die. There is no specification that you can only re-roll your dice. Plenty of games allow you to re-roll an opponent's die. Also, as has been mentioned, it's common English usage (in America at least) that you can re-something without having been the one to something in the first place. You can rebuild a wall that someone else built and knocked down, etc, etc. While I do believe it was the author's intent to only allow re-rolls for a player's own dice, the author never actually wrote that you can only re-roll your own dice. There should never be implied rules. Instead of being told we can re-roll "a die", we should have been told we can re-roll "one of your dice". That would have been far less ambiguous.

 Kriswall wrote:

 davou wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:


Keep in mind that 12 months from now the book will still be written the same way and some new player who is not looking through every twitch recording for the last year needs to be able to get that clarification. Until GW posts is in a way that every person who plays can reasonably see the ruling there is no ruling.

no.... This is such a stretch of RAW that EVERYONE realizes that any hint that you could do this is an oversight and an attempt at semantic surgery on the rules text to an extreme level. No new players are going assume you can do this, and if they do, ANY other players will address it quickly.

It's like if I was playing a game of magic, and when it was my turn to play a land, I went and picked up a land that my opponent had put down and played it on my field.

It's not like that at all. The rules for Magic don't give you permission to pick up a land that your opponent had put down.

The rules for 8th Edition just tell you that you can re-roll a die. There is no specification that you can only re-roll your dice. Plenty of games allow you to re-roll an opponent's die. Also, as has been mentioned, it's common English usage (in America at least) that you can re-something without having been the one to something in the first place. You can rebuild a wall that someone else built and knocked down, etc, etc. While I do believe it was the author's intent to only allow re-rolls for a player's own dice, the author never actually wrote that you can only re-roll your own dice. There should never be implied rules. Instead of being told we can re-roll "a die", we should have been told we can re-roll "one of your dice". That would have been far less ambiguous.

Or it should have been spelled out in the rerolls side bar. "Each dice can only be rerolled once. A player may never force a reroll on an opponents rolls." That one sentence would have clarified it all.

mhalko1 wrote:
NO YOU AREN'T! you are definitely not going to pick up MY die with the "reroll" you aren't allowed to make. You do not ever get to make the roll for someone else why would this be any different certain abilities say they force your opponent to reroll but you do not get to reroll anything of mine.

Citation needed. Can you quote the page and paragraph telling us that we can't re-roll another player's die result? I realize the rules are new, but I have yet to see that restriction. I see only a general permission to re-roll a die. That's a pretty broad permission.

 Kriswall wrote:

mhalko1 wrote:
NO YOU AREN'T! you are definitely not going to pick up MY die with the "reroll" you aren't allowed to make. You do not ever get to make the roll for someone else why would this be any different certain abilities say they force your opponent to reroll but you do not get to reroll anything of mine.

Citation needed. Can you quote the page and paragraph telling us that we can't re-roll another player's die result? I realize the rules are new, but I have yet to see that restriction. I see only a general permission to re-roll a die. That's a pretty broad permission.

[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]

amhoward wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

mhalko1 wrote:
NO YOU AREN'T! you are definitely not going to pick up MY die with the "reroll" you aren't allowed to make. You do not ever get to make the roll for someone else why would this be any different certain abilities say they force your opponent to reroll but you do not get to reroll anything of mine.

Citation needed. Can you quote the page and paragraph telling us that we can't re-roll another player's die result? I realize the rules are new, but I have yet to see that restriction. I see only a general permission to re-roll a die. That's a pretty broad permission.

[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]

You're just full of personal attacks. Given that your only contribution is a personal attack, can I safely assume that you don't actually have any rules text to back up your position?

Kriswall brings up a very good point, as the voice of reason this thread needs.

Hate to derail the thread, but can the command re-roll be used in a situation where a neutral die is cast. Obviously you cannot use it before the game, but say there is a roll of some sort that doesn't 'belong' to any plater, say to see if the game continues, can I re-roll that?

Lets say we as players are drawing from the same dice pool, or you borrow one of my dice for something, can I THEN use my re-roll on a die that I own? It's my dice, sure you rolled it but it is still mine.

Please keep in mind that Rule Number One is Be Polite. Thanks!

 Kriswall wrote:


You're just full of personal attacks. Given that your only contribution is a personal attack, can I safely assume that you don't actually have any rules text to back up your position?

Sure

I believe the intent of the rule is that you can only reroll your own rolls, and that is how I plan to play, if nothing else than to avoid arguments.

That being said, looking at it by sheer raw, I can't find anything stopping you from rerolling an opponent's roll, and their die certainly fits under the category "any die."

Maybe it's because I've played a lot of games that involve messing with your opponent's strategy, but I just assumed because it said reroll any die that it could be an opponent's roll. It's not like I thought to myself, "How am I going to win at all costs and also get to touch my opponent's stuff, hahahah". No one is going to reach across the table and grab your die and reroll it. I don't think it's game-changing, every time that stratagem is used it's going to be for an important die roll, regardless of who is making it, and with a detachment that gives you +9 CP you're going to be using them during your opponent's turn. Anyways, if we're going to apply it to only rolls that you make can be rerolled, it does get into some funky areas with the missions when rolls are made, for example:



So now the game roll can be rerolled and possibly extended or cut short by only one player on turn 6, and only by the other player on turn 7? Strange.

Edit: As I've been thinking about this much of the day while following this thread, I'm beginning to feel defeated about presenting the idea that it could be a valid opinion for someone to think any die being rerolled can be applied to a roll made by either player. I might as well present the idea that since a die can never be rerolled more than once, and this isn't per turn or per game, then after rolling each die you own twice you have to throw it away and open up a new box of dice. Like a condom, you only get two attempts per die before you can't use it any more, as it has now been rolled and rerolled once.

 gummyofallbears wrote:
Kriswall brings up a very good point, as the voice of reason this thread needs.

Hate to derail the thread, but can the command re-roll be used in a situation where a neutral die is cast. Obviously you cannot use it before the game, but say there is a roll of some sort that doesn't 'belong' to any plater, say to see if the game continues, can I re-roll that?

Lets say we as players are drawing from the same dice pool, or you borrow one of my dice for something, can I THEN use my re-roll on a die that I own? It's my dice, sure you rolled it but it is still mine.

Arguments about re-rolling other people's dice aside, the rolls to see if the game continues past turn 5 don't appear to be "neutral". The rules are clear about who makes them. This player can presumably use a CP to re-roll. It seems to be uncontroversial that you can use CP to re-roll the pre-game dice, and this doesn't seem much different.

Dionysodorus wrote:

 gummyofallbears wrote:
Kriswall brings up a very good point, as the voice of reason this thread needs.

Hate to derail the thread, but can the command re-roll be used in a situation where a neutral die is cast. Obviously you cannot use it before the game, but say there is a roll of some sort that doesn't 'belong' to any plater, say to see if the game continues, can I re-roll that?

Lets say we as players are drawing from the same dice pool, or you borrow one of my dice for something, can I THEN use my re-roll on a die that I own? It's my dice, sure you rolled it but it is still mine.

Arguments about re-rolling other people's dice aside, the rolls to see if the game continues past turn 5 don't appear to be "neutral". The rules are clear about who makes them. This player can presumably use a CP to re-roll. It seems to be uncontroversial that you can use CP to re-roll the pre-game dice, and this doesn't seem much different.

You can? I just assumed that because it has to be on your turn you cannot.

 Oaka wrote:

Edit: As I've been thinking about this much of the day while following this thread, I'm beginning to feel defeated about presenting the idea that it could be a valid opinion for someone to think any die being rerolled can be applied to a roll made by either player. I might as well present the idea that since a die can never be rerolled more than once, and this isn't per turn or per game, then after rolling each die you own twice you have to throw it away and open up a new box of dice. Like a condom, you only get two attempts per die before you can't use it any more, as it has now been rolled and rerolled once.

I think it's perfectly understandable that someone who plays games broadly and not just past editions of 40k would conclude that you're allowed to re-roll your opponent's dice. I suspect that if you just took people who had never heard of 40k and dumped them on a desert island with the rulebook and a bunch of models, when you came back they'd actually have a consensus position that re-rolling other people's dice is allowed. It's not a crazy idea to design a game to work that way. It's just that I think it strikes people who have played past editions as such a break from tradition that surely the break would have been stated explicitly if it were intended.

But yes, you could also take this so literally that you think it's telling you to throw out your dice after using them twice. There's a case that this is RAW, in some sense. But of course nobody's going to do that. That'd be a dumb rule, and it doesn't even confer an advantage on anybody so nobody has an incentive to pretend they think it's intended. Edit: For a less crazy example - the RAW don't actually seem to allow you to roll saves for a bunch of identical 1W models all at once, but in almost no situation is anyone going to object to you doing this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gummyofallbears wrote:

You can? I just assumed that because it has to be on your turn you cannot.

The "Command Points" section of the main rules is explicit on this. Page 242: "You can spend Command Points to use a Strategem before or during a battle." I've seen people taking it for granted you could use this to try to seize the initiative in other threads.

This debate reminds me of my trip back to china where I noticed that a 3rd story floor with children playing on it had no railings. I asked why there were no railings, because wouldn't it be a safety hazard? Surely the kids would be falling off the side.

My uncle told me "The kids here are not that stupid. They know not to go near the edge or rough-house up there".

Meanwhile I go grocery shopping here and the peanut butter is labeled "may contain peanuts".

Awesome, that really makes command points useful, thanks!

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

Meanwhile I go grocery shopping here and the peanut butter is labeled "may contain peanuts".

On the bright side, playing 8th edition will prepare us for when food products must be prepared more than 9' from any enemy peanuts and peanuts may never be allowed within 1' of our opponents (other humans).

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
This debate reminds me of my trip back to china where I noticed that a 3rd story floor with children playing on it had no railings. I asked why there were no railings, because wouldn't it be a safety hazard? Surely the kids would be falling off the side.

My uncle told me "The kids here are not that stupid. They know not to go near the edge or rough-house up there".

Meanwhile I go grocery shopping here and the peanut butter is labeled "may contain peanuts".

That has nothing to do with stupidity. Americans sue at the drop of a hat. Sometimes a company will label their peanut butter as "may contain peanuts" to stave off any lawsuits where a parent claims they weren't warned about peanut content ...or, maybe there are rules that any food product that contains peanuts must be labelled as such to protect people with allergies. You know, like the Food Allergen Labeling and Consumer Protection Act of 2006.

But please, be condescending and assume everyone is too stupid to realize peanut butter has peanuts in it.

There are tons of games where you routinely re-roll an opponent's dice. I'm unclear as to why not re-rolling an opponent's die is some sort of sacred, written in stone 40k thing. It's definitely not a general gaming convention.

 Kriswall wrote:
There are tons of games where you routinely re-roll an opponent's dice. I'm unclear as to why not re-rolling an opponent's die is some sort of sacred, written in stone 40k thing. It's definitely not a general gaming convention.

The reason is because at least in 40K, whenever you've been able to make an opponent re-roll dice it says as much: that your opponent has to re-roll their hits or that you can force your opponent to re-roll a die, etc. There's never been anything that would allow you to pick up your opponent's die and re-roll it for them.

So while I agree this should be FAQ'd, as it is currently written I'd place a pretty big wager on the answer ending up being that you're only able to re-roll your own dice. Plus, if you take a step back and think of what the command points aare supposed to represent and the bonuses they offer the player, they're all about representing how you, as the commander, are able to influence your own troops. So using that to re-roll an opponent's roll just doesn't fit that concept.

 Kriswall wrote:

mhalko1 wrote:
NO YOU AREN'T! you are definitely not going to pick up MY die with the "reroll" you aren't allowed to make. You do not ever get to make the roll for someone else why would this be any different certain abilities say they force your opponent to reroll but you do not get to reroll anything of mine.

Citation needed. Can you quote the page and paragraph telling us that we can't re-roll another player's die result? I realize the rules are new, but I have yet to see that restriction. I see only a general permission to re-roll a die. That's a pretty broad permission.

Its cited in the picture on page 1. Until you can find a rule that says You = Your Opponent, then the rule is clear.

 yakface wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
There are tons of games where you routinely re-roll an opponent's dice. I'm unclear as to why not re-rolling an opponent's die is some sort of sacred, written in stone 40k thing. It's definitely not a general gaming convention.

The reason is because at least in 40K, whenever you've been able to make an opponent re-roll dice it says as much: that your opponent has to re-roll their hits or that you can force your opponent to re-roll a die, etc. There's never been anything that would allow you to pick up your opponent's die and re-roll it for them.

So while I agree this should be FAQ'd, as it is currently written I'd place a pretty big wager on the answer ending up being that you're only able to re-roll your own dice. Plus, if you take a step back and think of what the command points aare supposed to represent and the bonuses they offer the player, they're all about representing how you, as the commander, are able to influence your own troops. So using that to re-roll an opponent's roll just doesn't fit that concept.

I understand. I also tend to agree that the outcome will be that you can only re-roll your own dice. I just don't think "because that's how older versions of the game worked" is a good enough reason. This edition is basically a full rewrite and allows lots of things that never would have been allowed before.

I do disagree that forcing an opponent to re-roll can't represent a 'command point decision'. My opponent shoots a lascannon at my hero guy. He rolls a 6 to hit. I, as army commander, yell at my dude to 'duck and cover', burning a command point and asking my opponent to re-roll that hit (because I'm polite and some people are weird about you touching their dice). He re-rolls and gets a 2, missing. My command decision to try to be harder to hit worked! The issue with abstractions is that anyone creative enough can 'forge the narrative' to be whatever they want. Only the author knows what the command point re-roll is supposed to represent. Maybe I can't tell my guys to be harder to hit, but I can tell them to make better use of their armor (not re-roll the opponent to hit, but yes on re-rolling my armor). Hence, we need an FAQ. Shockingly, GW wrote ambiguous rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

mhalko1 wrote:
NO YOU AREN'T! you are definitely not going to pick up MY die with the "reroll" you aren't allowed to make. You do not ever get to make the roll for someone else why would this be any different certain abilities say they force your opponent to reroll but you do not get to reroll anything of mine.

Citation needed. Can you quote the page and paragraph telling us that we can't re-roll another player's die result? I realize the rules are new, but I have yet to see that restriction. I see only a general permission to re-roll a die. That's a pretty broad permission.

Its cited in the picture on page 1. Until you can find a rule that says You = Your Opponent, then the rule is clear.

As has been mentioned many times, it's common English usage to redo something where you weren't the one who did it in the first place. As such, it's perfectly acceptable to re-roll a die you didn't roll in the first place.

"I was walking down the street and a guy threw a die at me. It landed on the street, rolling several times before landing on the one facing. I picked it up, re-rolled it and got a six. Happy to have improved the result, I kept walking." Nonsense story, but the use of re-rolled isn't inappropriate.

 Kriswall wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
This debate reminds me of my trip back to china where I noticed that a 3rd story floor with children playing on it had no railings. I asked why there were no railings, because wouldn't it be a safety hazard? Surely the kids would be falling off the side.

My uncle told me "The kids here are not that stupid. They know not to go near the edge or rough-house up there".

Meanwhile I go grocery shopping here and the peanut butter is labeled "may contain peanuts".

That has nothing to do with stupidity. Americans sue at the drop of a hat. Sometimes a company will label their peanut butter as "may contain peanuts" to stave off any lawsuits where a parent claims they weren't warned about peanut content ...or, maybe there are rules that any food product that contains peanuts must be labelled as such to protect people with allergies. You know, like the Food Allergen Labeling and Consumer Protection Act of 2006.

But please, be condescending and assume everyone is too stupid to realize peanut butter has peanuts in it.

There are tons of games where you routinely re-roll an opponent's dice. I'm unclear as to why not re-rolling an opponent's die is some sort of sacred, written in stone 40k thing. It's definitely not a general gaming convention.

I'm just saying that there's something wrong when you have to spell out the obvious to that degree. It frequently makes me think we failed as a society when we have many, many laws in existence specifically to stave off people intentionally doing something against the contrary simply because someone will do it without it spelt out, and another person would be blamed for it.

I'm just surprised this hasn't come up before, since prior edition rulebooks didn't specify dice ownership either. I'd say that before the rolls were always specific to a particular dice (like, say, specifying an enemy's armor save) but Kairos existed back then too and no one seemed to have a problem with him.

Also just for the record, while I believe RAI the writers intended for it to only be your own dice, I do like the idea that you can screw your opponent's rolls. It adds another layer of tactical depth, and it's not that far of a stretch either (if your commander can order a trooper to fire more accurately on the To Hit dice, why can't he order a reroll of an armor save and have that represent the trooper being ordered specifically to aim for the soft bits in between armor plates?)

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
This debate reminds me of my trip back to china where I noticed that a 3rd story floor with children playing on it had no railings. I asked why there were no railings, because wouldn't it be a safety hazard? Surely the kids would be falling off the side.

My uncle told me "The kids here are not that stupid. They know not to go near the edge or rough-house up there".

Meanwhile I go grocery shopping here and the peanut butter is labeled "may contain peanuts".

That has nothing to do with stupidity. Americans sue at the drop of a hat. Sometimes a company will label their peanut butter as "may contain peanuts" to stave off any lawsuits where a parent claims they weren't warned about peanut content ...or, maybe there are rules that any food product that contains peanuts must be labelled as such to protect people with allergies. You know, like the Food Allergen Labeling and Consumer Protection Act of 2006.

But please, be condescending and assume everyone is too stupid to realize peanut butter has peanuts in it.

There are tons of games where you routinely re-roll an opponent's dice. I'm unclear as to why not re-rolling an opponent's die is some sort of sacred, written in stone 40k thing. It's definitely not a general gaming convention.

I'm just saying that there's something wrong when you have to spell out the obvious to that degree. It frequently makes me think we failed as a society when we have many, many laws in existence specifically to stave off people intentionally doing something against the contrary simply because someone will do it without it spelt out, and another person would be blamed for it.

I'm just surprised this hasn't come up before, since prior edition rulebooks didn't specify dice ownership either. I'd say that before the rolls were always specific to a particular dice (like, say, specifying an enemy's armor save) but Kairos existed back then too and no one seemed to have a problem with him.

Also just for the record, while I believe RAI the writers intended for it to only be your own dice, I do like the idea that you can screw your opponent's rolls. It adds another layer of tactical depth, and it's not that far of a stretch either (if your commander can order a trooper to fire more accurately on the To Hit dice, why can't he order a reroll of an armor save and have that represent the trooper being ordered specifically to aim for the soft bits in between armor plates?)

Plus, TONS of other games allow you to reroll an opponent's dice. It's on of the core concepts of Star Wars Destiny. People who didn't grow up playing games where you can't re-roll an opponent's dice won't necessarily assume it to be true. In that sense, it's not even remotely obvious to many people. It really needs to be spelled out. As a rules writer you can't rely on "things that people really ought to know".

Eh depends on which games you've played. Admittedly most of the ones I played are more "pedestrian" than others, but generally they only let you reroll your own rolls. It's very rare for me to encounter a game where they would let you reroll an opponent's dice without explicitly stating so (and in those cases you're only allowed to touch an opponent's dice, not your own).

Granted, all of those explicitly state which dice you can roll. This is the first case where I've seen where the rules never explicitly stated that you can't touch the opponent's dice while also giving a blank "reroll" ability.

Note that this is also the first case I can think of where there is no restriction on using your opponent's stuff, but it wasn't explicitly spelled out so. In other examples, usually they would include an example where you took something from your opponent to explicitly show that was the intent. This isn't the first time I've seen something like this though. Once playing yugioh I had an opponent equip a trample-giving card to one of my monsters. It wasn't until it came to my battlephase that I realized my monster was forced to attack and, due to the wording on the trample card, it ended up inflicting damage to ME (the wording on the card says "inflict the difference as battle damage to your opponent". However the card granting the effect wasn't under my control, hence I was the "opponent" even though the monster belonged to me).

Heh. Another case of fail from gw rulewriters of inability to write clear rules. 12 pages and still rules full of ones that make raw vs rai arquments.

Only real change gw has had is they hired fb guy

tneva82 wrote:
Heh. Another case of fail from gw rulewriters of inability to write clear rules. 12 pages and still rules full of ones that make raw vs rai arquments.

Only real change gw has had is they hired fb guy

It doesn't matter if they make mistakes (we are humans after all) what matter is that they fix them and they have shown in the recent past that they are actively working on answering question and fixing mistakes

Honestly since the rules haven't even officially dropped yet, i would be surprised if there was as day one FAQ if not within the very first week (which they have done for their recent rule releases)

On the same note, the rules states that you cannot reroll any dice more than once (pag 178, upper left). It also does not specifies "during the current game", so i should assume that i cannon EVER-FOREVER reroll an individual dice more than once.

Let's say i have 3 dice: X red, X white and X black.

As per RAW i can only re-roll my X white dice once, my X black dice once and my X red dice once.

After that i'd better buy another 3, called Y white, Y black and Y red. Because X dices cannot be rerolled ANYMORE in any given game until i die.

Do you guys think we need a faq for this too, or maybe, just maybe, warhammer has become the standard hobby for lawyers?

The answer to OP is "No". And i totally get that in other games a "Yes" would be perfectly logical. In warhammer it is not.