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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/12 13:43:35
Subject: How to run devestators? Need help
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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So going to run a devastator army with 8th. Debating how to kit them
1. 3x heavy bolters 1x lascannon in razorback with twin assault cannon
2. 4x heavy bolters in razorback with twin lascannon
3. 4x heavy bolters in razorback with twin assault cannon
Opinions? Obviously going to run enough commanders so that everyone is rerolling 1s to hit.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/12 13:47:24
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/12 13:57:06
Subject: How to run devestators? Need help
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Option 2 would seem most versatlie...
Only rule I follow for Devs is everyone has same range... Razorback is its own entity
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si vis pacem, para bellum |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/12 18:10:01
Subject: Re:How to run devestators? Need help
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Can you still split fire on dev squads? If so the assault cannons have amazing fire output problem is they don't actually come with the razorback because gw hates us. That said if you can't split fire you don't want to waste bolter shots at vehicles
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/12 18:10:38
Subject: Re:How to run devestators? Need help
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Mighty Vampire Count
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gendoikari87 wrote:Can you still split fire on dev squads? If so the assault cannons have amazing fire output problem is they don't actually come with the razorback because gw hates us. That said if you can't split fire you don't want to waste bolter shots at vehicles
Everything can split fire
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I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page
A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/12 18:35:54
Subject: Re:How to run devestators? Need help
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Grim Rune Priest in the Eye of the Storm
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I have always used the same 4 Weapons with my Devastators (Long Fangs are a different story though). I have two squads with 4x Plasma-Cannons and one with 4x Heavy Bolters. I find the now 4d3 S7 AP-3 Attacks worth it.
Disclaimer: I do play in a causal environment.
I normally take full 10 Model Squads and give my Sargent a Combi-Plasma and a Chainsword (A Fluff thing). Now that is not a bad combination. The extra 5 Models can be used as extra wounds or you can Combat Squad them, put them in a Razorback and use them to take/hold objectives or just key locations on the board.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/12 18:42:39
Subject: How to run devestators? Need help
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Legendary Master of the Chapter
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Depends on the rest of the list.
that is a lot of anti infantry firepower if you go HB and ASS backs.
having a split with LAS would give you more fire options.
Gravs are not bad ether.
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Unit1126PLL wrote: Scott-S6 wrote:And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.
Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/12 19:54:30
Subject: How to run devestators? Need help
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Ship's Officer
London
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I think it's going to be best to run 10 man squads with lascannons, or possibly plasma cannons if you've got a commander nearby.
Sticking captains near to anything other than plasma cannons is a huge waste. Just buy another devastator squad instead!
It might be worth putting a 5 man squad with lascannons into a bastion. You get increased survivability, which is nice, and also much better lines of sight. But maybe you should just buy a predator instead.
I don't see a lot of point in heavy bolters. I'd rather have 2 tactical marines than 1 devastator with a hvy bolter I think.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/12 19:55:35
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/12 23:48:59
Subject: How to run devestators? Need help
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Mandragola wrote:
I don't see a lot of point in heavy bolters. I'd rather have 2 tactical marines than 1 devastator with a hvy bolter I think.
and if this were 5th or 6th edition you'd be right. however. new development Heavy bolters are ap -1. not a big shock as i know before they were ap 4 or 5 and that negated guard and tau's armor pretty well...... BUT with the new rules it takes marines down to a 4+ save and that makes a huge difference.
Also of note is most everything that was ap 3 or ap 2 before is now AP -3 which means marines will still get a 6+ save. The changes to armor are not to be scoffed at.
and i just checked yes lascannons are ap-3 so anything wiht a 3+ save will still get a 6+ save
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/12 23:51:29
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/12 23:55:56
Subject: How to run devestators? Need help
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Ship's Officer
London
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Of course, heavy bolters have better strength than bolters and ap-1. But two tactical marines have 2 wounds, 2 attacks etc.
It's not an exact comparison. The 2 tacticals cost a bit more. I just don't think heavy bolter devastators are a good use of points and heavy support slots. To be fair, maybe I ought to change my opinion on the slots, given how easy it is to get those.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/13 00:49:39
Subject: Re:How to run devestators? Need help
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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another idea. I could run a Razorback with twin lascannons. a landraider of some sort and one half strength dev squad in the razorback and a full squad OR two half squads in the landraider. thoughts?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/13 04:27:04
Subject: How to run devestators? Need help
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!!Goffik Rocker!!
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Captain + plazma cannon devs are extremely good. With the new cover rules they get to 2+ easilly while the attacking enemy usually doesn't get cover.
Devastators are so good there's no much reason to take tacticals instead of them unless you want a couple more command points.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/13 04:37:40
Subject: How to run devestators? Need help
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Dakka Veteran
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Missile Launcher are so good this edition - frag to deal with the hordes, krak to deal with the armored targets.
A squad or two of 4xMissile Launcher Devastators will mulch anything they look at...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/13 09:04:50
Subject: How to run devestators? Need help
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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fe40k wrote:Missile Launcher are so good this edition - frag to deal with the hordes, krak to deal with the armored targets.
A squad or two of 4xMissile Launcher Devastators will mulch anything they look at...
by mathhammer missile launchers are the worst option available.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/13 09:19:37
Subject: How to run devestators? Need help
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Terminator with Assault Cannon
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gendoikari87 wrote:by mathhammer missile launchers are the worst option available.
That's true if you compare the situationally ideal weapon vs. missile launchers. In practice, missile launchers are the best option available.
Let me explain:
Against a landraider, which is better: a lascannon or a missile launcher?
Obviously, the lascannon.
Fine.
What about against blobs of imperial guardsmen: a heavy bolter or a missile launcher?
Obviously, the heavy bolter.
Against terminators, would you prefer a plasma cannon or a missile launcher?
Obviously, the plasma cannon.
But the fact is that we can't make assumptions about what the opponent is going to bring. There's even a word for doing that: "list tailoring." It's frowned on in 40k circles.
So suppose you show up with your lascannons and plasma cannons, but your opponent has guardsmen.
Or your opponent has a landraider and terminators, and you have heavy bolters.
I bet, in those cases, you would wish that you had a missile launcher, wouldn't you?
A missile launcher meaningfully threatens everything in the game.
You have a terminator? I have a krak missile. You get a 4+ armor save, and if you fail to roll a 4 or higher, then you'd better hope that I roll a 1.
You have a landraider? I have a krak missile. You get a 4+ armor save, and then I get 1d6 damage if you fail to roll a 4 or higher.
You have guardsmen? That's fine too. I have frag missiles.
And you're also not taking range into account. A missile launcher can threaten pretty much anything on the board, and you don't even have to move.
Did you mathhammer the 24 inch range difference between a krak missile and a multimelta? What about the 12 inch difference between a krak missile and a plasma cannon? How about the 12 inch difference between a heavy bolter and a frag missile?
And did you take into account the number of things that have invulns?
The missile launcher is better than every other heavy weapons option if your opponent is running harlequins.
No, a missile launcher will almost never be ideal. But it will always be good enough.
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This message was edited 10 times. Last update was at 2017/06/13 09:44:19
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/13 09:47:38
Subject: How to run devestators? Need help
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!!Goffik Rocker!!
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Kinda like it should be.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/13 09:52:16
Subject: How to run devestators? Need help
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Terminator with Assault Cannon
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I completely agree. I think that GW basically hit the nail on the head when it comes to how MLs should work.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also want to point out that missile launchers have a psychological advantage.
If your opponent gets a 5+ armor save, he's going to feel more confident wasting a command point to reroll a failed save than had he failed a 6+ armor save because you shot his tank with a lascannon.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/13 10:00:53
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/13 10:19:01
Subject: How to run devestators? Need help
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Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard
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You have to take an entire opponents army into account. There will almost never be something a Lascannon, or a Grav Cannon, or a Plasma Cannon will be 'wasted' shooting at. 2000 point armies are almost never entirely Guardsmen, or Ork boyz, or Hormagaunts.
The Missile Launcher has traditionally (and still does) suffer from being a mediocre versatile weapon in a game where you want every unit to be specialized. Weapons like the Grav Cannon can get away with it due to the higher Rate of Fire and ability to threaten everything.
Especially since the Missile Launcher is as expensive as a Lascannon, and the only portable heavy weapon that is more expensive is the Grav Cannon.
Not to mention, your 2000 point list should have more in it then your Devastator Squads. Kitting Devastators out with Lascannons makes sense when you have Razorbacks toting around Assault Cannons, as you will want the dedicated anti-tank to shoot the big things while the Assault Cannons blow away the chaff. Heck, even blowing away a character after you take out his cover with the Assault Cannons would be a good use of Lascannons!
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warboss wrote:Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/13 12:08:00
Subject: Re:How to run devestators? Need help
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Here's the main problem with the missile launched by mathhammer. Refused less of if you are shooting at orks or space marines the frag and Krak options deal the same wounds on average assuming t4 that's unsaved wounds too. And when you look at it like that the lascannon which is strictly better at anti vehicle is far better and purely by mathhammer heavy bolters don't lag very far behind in the anti vehicle role. Now either. Again this is all mathhammer and when I get home I can show the math but suffice it to say you should never be taking missiles on anything that can take something else Automatically Appended Next Post: Stupid phone and fat fingers
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/13 12:08:46
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/13 12:23:31
Subject: Re:How to run devestators? Need help
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Indiana
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gendoikari87 wrote:Here's the main problem with the missile launched by mathhammer. Refused less of if you are shooting at orks or space marines the frag and Krak options deal the same wounds on average assuming t4 that's unsaved wounds too. And when you look at it like that the lascannon which is strictly better at anti vehicle is far better and purely by mathhammer heavy bolters don't lag very far behind in the anti vehicle role. Now either. Again this is all mathhammer and when I get home I can show the math but suffice it to say you should never be taking missiles on anything that can take something else
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Stupid phone and fat fingers
The point is that a model cant take both a heavy bolter AND a lascannon. But they can take a missile launcher which is a solid middle ground for both of them. Now if you want to argue that two heavy bolters and a lascannon is better than two missile launchers that is an entirely different argument.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/13 12:30:21
Subject: How to run devestators? Need help
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I have always had a soft spot for plasma cannons. Put a Captain nearby to reroll those pesky 1s and you can overcharge to your heart's content.
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I stand between the darkness and the light. Between the candle and the star. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/13 12:33:06
Subject: How to run devestators? Need help
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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I don't trust -2 armor save AP on a single shot. Yes, D6 damage is nice, but now that moving isn't a death sentence for heavy weapons, I like the midfield control weapons better. Also, the strongest units have T8, so the krak missile is not clearing many wounds at all against those targets.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/13 12:33:51
Subject: Re:How to run devestators? Need help
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Leth wrote:gendoikari87 wrote:Here's the main problem with the missile launched by mathhammer. Refused less of if you are shooting at orks or space marines the frag and Krak options deal the same wounds on average assuming t4 that's unsaved wounds too. And when you look at it like that the lascannon which is strictly better at anti vehicle is far better and purely by mathhammer heavy bolters don't lag very far behind in the anti vehicle role. Now either. Again this is all mathhammer and when I get home I can show the math but suffice it to say you should never be taking missiles on anything that can take something else
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Stupid phone and fat fingers
The point is that a model cant take both a heavy bolter AND a lascannon. But they can take a missile launcher which is a solid middle ground for both of them. Now if you want to argue that two heavy bolters and a lascannon is better than two missile launchers that is an entirely different argument.
doesnt matter if a model can't take a heavy bolter and lascannon the frag option is literally worthless in all scenarios. The krak option is better than the drag option in ALL SCENARIOS and the lascannon is strictly better than the krak in all scenarios for the same cost. Missile launchers are point traps
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Long story short the frag option does not exist or shouldn't.
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The only scenario where the frag option is better is t3 with no save under all other circumstances the krak will kill more than the frag and this is all before you even consider the higher damage charactistic
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/06/13 12:42:39
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/13 12:43:11
Subject: Re:How to run devestators? Need help
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Indiana
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gendoikari87 wrote: Leth wrote:gendoikari87 wrote:Here's the main problem with the missile launched by mathhammer. Refused less of if you are shooting at orks or space marines the frag and Krak options deal the same wounds on average assuming t4 that's unsaved wounds too. And when you look at it like that the lascannon which is strictly better at anti vehicle is far better and purely by mathhammer heavy bolters don't lag very far behind in the anti vehicle role. Now either. Again this is all mathhammer and when I get home I can show the math but suffice it to say you should never be taking missiles on anything that can take something else
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Stupid phone and fat fingers
The point is that a model cant take both a heavy bolter AND a lascannon. But they can take a missile launcher which is a solid middle ground for both of them. Now if you want to argue that two heavy bolters and a lascannon is better than two missile launchers that is an entirely different argument.
doesnt matter if a model can't take a heavy bolter and lascannon the frag option is literally worthless in all scenarios. The krak option is better than the drag option in ALL SCENARIOS and the lascannon is strictly better than the krak in all scenarios for the same cost. Missile launchers are point traps
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Long story short the frag option does not exist or shouldn't.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
The only scenario where the frag option is better is t3 with no save under all other circumstances the krak will kill more than the frag
Gonna need to see the math on that one chief.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/13 12:48:28
Subject: Re:How to run devestators? Need help
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Missiles frag is d3 that's an average of two shots t4 will take average of 1 wound per hit and save a minimum of 1/6 giving average 5/6 wounds
Krak will wound wound 5/6 which is the same as with the krak only the krak has ap-2..
It's not hard math
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Trust me I am heavily biased toward missile launchers as that's what I have and I think they look wicked awesome but they're really really bad
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I'm not a statistician but I am a physicist and have done the math made a calculator and analyzed each option against both orks marines and vehicles. Point for point you can't beat the heavy bolter and lascannon. Plasma cannon are not far behind and all are inferior to the freaking grav cannon seriously the grav cannon is a beast except against vehicles where the d6 damage comes into play Automatically Appended Next Post: However that said the grav cannon is a better anti vehicle weapon than the missile launchers by a hair and the heavy bolter is no slouch against vehicles
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/06/13 13:06:15
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/13 13:32:11
Subject: How to run devestators? Need help
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Indiana
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Frag is d6 dude......
Cyclone is 2d3.....
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/13 13:33:30
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/13 13:35:13
Subject: How to run devestators? Need help
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!!Goffik Rocker!!
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I don't know, man. My first game was vs 6 squads of devastators + cap + termies. My second game was against 4 plasma scions comsquads and 6 basilisks. This same guy also ran a list composed entirely of ig heavy weapon teams and drop plasma scion comsquads (yeah, he likes broken combos).
Lists can get really spammy. Even more so than before. I'm even considering to run ork lists composed 90% of footslogging boyz, stormboyz and characters that buff them. Just cause elite stuff seems pretty underwhelming for orks.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/13 13:38:32
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/13 13:35:59
Subject: How to run devestators? Need help
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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nope frag is d3 cyclone is 2d3 because it's two missile launchers. They are d6 damage.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/13 13:36:41
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/13 13:36:32
Subject: How to run devestators? Need help
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Indiana
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koooaei wrote:
I don't know, man. My first game was vs 6 squads of devastators + cap + termies. My second game was against 4 plasma scions comsquads and 6 basilisks.
Lists can get really spammy. Even more so than before. I'm even considering to run ork lists composed 90% of footslogging boyz, stormboyz and characters that buff them. Just cause elite stuff seems pretty underwhelming for orks.
I think a lot of the spammy is the pendulum that comes with a huge edition shift. People are like "OMG this is awesome" then they spam it, and then people adapt and suddenly you need to have something to counter what countered your spam. Eventually you get down to these hybrid lists that have solid elements to deal with everything.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/13 13:38:38
Subject: How to run devestators? Need help
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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That's d6 damage for the krak
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/13 13:39:44
Subject: How to run devestators? Need help
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!!Goffik Rocker!!
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I'm currently not sure how to deal with 6 basilisks and plasma comsquads in 1k pts. Other than spam myself.
Another thing with 'specialised' weapon platforms is that they're easier to deal with. For example, you have got 2 dev squads. And the opponent is running a trukk of boyz at you. If you have a squad of havy bolters and a squad of lazcannons, it can be good IF you have the first turn. Laz cannons deal with a trukk and heavy bolters kill boyz. But if orks have 1-st turn and you're not lucky enough to down a trukk - that's basically what happened to me in a game vs devastators and termies - you just disembark boyz and kill heavy bolter marines. Than lazcannons can't deal with the boyz. On the other hand, if you have 2 squads of missile launchers, they are both decent vs a trukk and vs boyz. So that if i disembark boyz and kill one ml squad, the other one will still be enough to kill the boyz.
Sure, specialised stuff is good for a reason. But you can't always use it against it's intended targets - be it smaller games or los blocking terrain or whatever.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/13 13:47:31
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