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 koooaei wrote:
I'm currently not sure how to deal with 6 basilisks and plasma comsquads in 1k pts. Other than spam myself.

twin assault cannons on razorbacks if you can monitarily afford them. Spam those they are as goo against armor for the points and wreck infantry face

I think the biggest change is ap 5 weapons now being -1 to saves that is a huge thing and probably why terminators are 2 wounds now


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Basically for marines from previously high ap weapons you still get a save and previously low ap weapons you don't get as much of one.

gendoikari87 wrote:
Missiles frag is d3 that's an average of two shots t4 will take average of 1 wound per hit and save a minimum of 1/6 giving average 5/6 wounds

Krak will wound wound 5/6 which is the same as with the krak only the krak has ap-2..

It's not hard math


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Trust me I am heavily biased toward missile launchers as that's what I have and I think they look wicked awesome but they're really really bad


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I'm not a statistician but I am a physicist and have done the math made a calculator and analyzed each option against both orks marines and vehicles. Point for point you can't beat the heavy bolter and lascannon. Plasma cannon are not far behind and all are inferior to the freaking grav cannon seriously the grav cannon is a beast except against vehicles where the d6 damage comes into play


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However that said the grav cannon is a better anti vehicle weapon than the missile launchers by a hair and the heavy bolter is no slouch against vehicles

ML Frag: d6 4 0 1
ML Krak: 1 8 -2 d6
vs T4 3+
Frag 3.5*.67*.5*.33*1 comes to .39 points of damage allocated
Krak 1*.67*.84*.67*3.5 comes to 1.31 points of damage allocated

koooaei wrote:Another thing with 'specialised' weapon platforms is that they're easier to deal with. For example, you have got 2 dev squads. And the opponent is running a trukk of boyz at you. If you have a squad of havy bolters and a squad of lazcannons, it can be good IF you have the first turn. Laz cannons deal with a trukk and heavy bolters kill boyz. But if orks have 1-st turn and you're not lucky enough to down a trukk - that's basically what happened to me in a game vs devastators and termies - you just disembark boyz and kill heavy bolter marines. Than lazcannons can't deal with the boyz. On the other hand, if you have 2 squads of missile launchers, they are both decent vs a trukk and vs boyz. So that if i disembark boyz and kill one ml squad, the other one will still be enough to kill the boyz.

Sure, specialised stuff is good for a reason. But you can't always use it against it's intended targets - be it smaller games or los blocking terrain or whatever.

I wish to note, in passing, that this very conversation is strong evidence that GW did an excellent job at balancing the weapons. The fact that I or Koooaei can look at MLs and think that they are the best weapon in the armory, and the fact that other people can look at it and think it's trash, just shows how balanced these weapons actually are.

So, if anyone from GW is reading this:

For the love of 8th edition, don't change SM weapons. Not even a little bit. They are just right as is.

At any rate, back to the defense of the ML:

1. Again, we cannot make assumptions in advance about what the opponent is going to bring to the table or about what the map terrain is going to look like. We also cannot make assumptions about deployment. The opponent could bring literally anything from grot spam to Leman Russ tank spam. We simply can't make assumptions about opponent army composition in advance. Yes, it's true, a heavy bolter can wound the Leman Russ, but the krak missile will be much more effective at doing that.

So, yes, by taking the ML, you are sacrificing damage output in "ideal" circumstances, but you are also ensuring that you have a bare minimum effectiveness regardless of the situation.

2. Also, Kooaei is entirely correct. Even if you bring the "right" tools for the job, you have to take into account in-game contingencies. Yes, specialization is desirable, but so is redundancy.

And note, specialization and redundancy are mutually exclusive in this case. In my view, the benefits you receive from redundancy outweigh the benefits you get from specialization.

3. I also want to point out that the frag missile is strictly better than plasma cannons and heavy bolters when we are talking about enemy targets further than 42 inches away.

If the opponent has some cultists camping an objective 43+ inches away, the frag missile will be the best possible option.

4. Also, again, harlequins.

If your opponent has t3 models with a 4+ invuln save, there is absolutely no difference between S4, AP 0 and S5, AP -1. But there is a difference between 3 shots and 1d6 shots. There's also a huge difference between 36 inches and 48 inches.

The 4 HB Dev squad, Assault cannon Razor Back COMBO ...is the most points efficient way to load up with S5/6 -1ap weapons. The combo strips wounds from basically anything ... even Titans, that get within range.

oh so the frag is D6. that's not that much better(average 2 vs average 3.5). Also when did missile launchers go to 48" range?


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So here we go with mathhammer with fixed frag options. Make of this what you will and decide for your self

Marine with weapon VS Marines (1 wound models killed)

Heavy bolter 0.66
Missile launcher 0.46
Missile Launcher blast 0.388
Lascannon 0.46
Plasma cannon 0.7

Marine with weapon VS marine (per point effectiveness)

Heavy bolter 0.028695652
Missile launcher 0.012105263
Missile Launcher blast 0.010210526
Lascannon 0.012105263
Plasma cannon 0.020588235



Marine with weapon VS Orks

Heavy bolter 1.33
Missile launcher 0.55
Missile Launcher blast 0.97
Lascannon 0.55
Plasma cannon 0.88


Marine VS 3+ save with multiple wounds

Heavy bolter 0.33
Missile launcher 0.92
Missile Launcher blast 0.3888
Lascannon 1.6
Plasma cannon 0.55

Marine Vs Ork (per point effectiveness)

Heavy bolter 0.057826087
Missile launcher 0.014473684
Missile Launcher blast 0.025526316
Lascannon 0.014473684
Plasma cannon 0.025882353



all point costs include cost of devestator


Edit: will fix tomorrow but these are done using -3 for the AP on the ML

Edit 2: not the per point effectiveness of HB's

Take missile launchers if you want. I probably won't be.

gendoikari87 wrote:

You also need to calculate the efectiveness vs rhinos, trukks and knights.

And keep in mind that command points benefit low amount of shot-high damage weapons way more than weapons with a lot of average shots. You can spend a command point to re-roll that 1 on d6 number of shots or damage when you need it the most.

gendoikari87 wrote:
oh so the frag is D6. that's not that much better(average 2 vs average 3.5). Also when did missile launchers go to 48" range?

3rd edition, possibly even earlier. I never played 2nd.

So thanks to origins game fair and a bits place that popped up I now have three dev squads and three razorbacks