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So a friend shared this in our local gaming group, and it's something I have not noticed at all from the new rules. I haven't seen any batreps online doing this either, so I wanted to check with you guys as well.

See this picture:


Rerolls now happen BEFORE any modifiers. This is a pretty huge change to re-rolls, and nerfs them quite a bit actually.

Example:
A Marine shoots at a Venomthrope, which makes a -1 modifier to the Marines to-hit roll. Let's say the Marine gets to reroll all his misses due to some ability that is in effect.

The Marine shoots and gets a 3 on his die roll. According to the Marines BS, this is a hit, and he does not re-roll since re-rolls are now before any modifiers. Now the modifier kicks in, which downgrades the Marines result to 4, which is a miss. Since the re-roll "window" has already happened, he will not get to re-roll this die.

Thoughts on this? Is this an intentional nerf to re-rolls? Should all re-rolls be "may" and not "must" now? Should you be able to re-roll that 3, even though it has not missed "yet" in the rule sequence?

I think this may be intentional, and I don't think GW realises how powerful it can make modifiers. Means if your target gives you a -1 on your to hit roll, you roll a 2, you can't then use your "reroll on ones" it goes down to a 1 and your plasma rifle is now exploding, and your insurance policy of a reroll on 1s is now not valid.

Pretty wild.

So if Cato Sicarius rolls a two on his supercharged plasma pistol when he's suffering -1 to hit, he can't re-roll it cause its not a natural 1 before modifiers, but its then modified to a 1 killing him?

This procedure (Rerolls Before Modifiers; RRBM) makes it far easier, and less imbalancing, to hand out, "Reroll 1's and Reroll Failed X" buffs. Negative modifiers are rare, and we haven't seen any be automatically army-wide. Those that are available to buff an army are removable (kill the Venomthropes). If the procedure was the other way around, negative modifiers would be near pointless, and rerolls would be very powerful (and RIP Stealthsuits, etc., which are actually worth consideration).

Taffy17 wrote:
So if Cato Sicarius rolls a two on his supercharged plasma pistol when he's suffering -1 to hit, he can't re-roll it cause its not a natural 1 before modifiers, but its then modified to a 1 killing him?

Yep, seems like it. Don't supercharge plasma when firing with a negative modifier!

DCannon4Life wrote:
This procedure (Rerolls Before Modifiers; RRBM) makes it far easier, and less imbalancing, to hand out, "Reroll 1's and Reroll Failed X" buffs. Negative modifiers are rare, and we haven't seen any be automatically army-wide. Those that are available to buff an army are removable (kill the Venomthropes). If the procedure was the other way around, negative modifiers would be near pointless, and rerolls would be very powerful (and RIP Stealthsuits, etc., which are actually worth consideration).

Don't forget that negative modifiers come from shooting with different types of weapons and other actions (moving and shooting with a heavy weapon for example). It is not just enemy models that can give negative modifiers. I am not saying this system is automatically bad, but it will take quite a bit of getting used to, and I am not a fan of them changing a thing that has been the same for so long, and will cause a lot confusion when playing, atleast now in the beginning.

But if you rolled a one you could re-roll it but technically it would count as 0 and not get hot?

Pay attention to the wording of rules. If the rule says "on rolls of 'x' ", the number on the die is the only thing that matters regardless of modifiers. If the rule says "on 'x's to hit/wound/etc.", the result after modifiers is what matters. Does the Gets Hot rule trigger "on rolls of 1" or on "1's to hit"?

I don't know why but this revelation makes me giggle like a schoolgirl.

 EnTyme wrote:
Pay attention to the wording of rules. If the rule says "on rolls of 'x' ", the number on the die is the only thing that matters regardless of modifiers. If the rule says "on 'x's to hit/wound/etc.", the result after modifiers is what matters. Does the Gets Hot rule trigger "on rolls of 1" or on "1's to hit"?

"On rolls of 1", as far as I can see.

 alleus wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
Pay attention to the wording of rules. If the rule says "on rolls of 'x' ", the number on the die is the only thing that matters regardless of modifiers. If the rule says "on 'x's to hit/wound/etc.", the result after modifiers is what matters. Does the Gets Hot rule trigger "on rolls of 1" or on "1's to hit"?

"On rolls of 1", as far as I can see.

If that's the case, modifiers don't matter. Only a die roll of "1" causes Gets Hot.

A modifier of rolling a 1 on plasma is your model is slain. Therefore, the reroll happens before modifiers?

No.

That's going to take some getting used to.

 EnTyme wrote:

 alleus wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
Pay attention to the wording of rules. If the rule says "on rolls of 'x' ", the number on the die is the only thing that matters regardless of modifiers. If the rule says "on 'x's to hit/wound/etc.", the result after modifiers is what matters. Does the Gets Hot rule trigger "on rolls of 1" or on "1's to hit"?

"On rolls of 1", as far as I can see.

If that's the case, modifiers don't matter. Only a die roll of "1" causes Gets Hot.

Sounds like a reasonable reading, still something I'd like an official ruling on, just to make it 100% clear to everyone, no matter what kind of rules lawyering is attempted.

Right. I feel like GW has really been playing up the "This is the most balanced and tested version ever!" thing a bit. Things like this and the strange situation of firing arcs for vehicles should not have gone through as unclear as they are if they have been testing it as much as they say they have.

 alleus wrote:
Right. I feel like GW has really been playing up the "This is the most balanced and tested version ever!" thing a bit. Things like this and the strange situation of firing arcs for vehicles should not have gone through as unclear as they are if they have been testing it as much as they say they have.

firing arcs on vehicles is perfectly clear, they don't exist

Well this is bizarre.

BrianDavion wrote:

 alleus wrote:
Right. I feel like GW has really been playing up the "This is the most balanced and tested version ever!" thing a bit. Things like this and the strange situation of firing arcs for vehicles should not have gone through as unclear as they are if they have been testing it as much as they say they have.

firing arcs on vehicles is perfectly clear, they don't exist

Yes, well, clear is one thing. Dumb is another

Joking aside, I do understand the firing arcs situation (with the whole absraction thing), but I still think it's quite silly. Same thing with the re-rolls, the rule is also pretty clear, but stupid.

Don't really agree at all with that. I think firing arcs were unnecessary for the game, and I play Ad Mech. I was effectively already basically not using firing arcs because of how easy they were to play around for my vehicles, so it's everyone else that gained from it. Still think they are completely unnecessary and I think it's a fine change.

With the clarifications made in this thread, I also find the reroll situation fine. By what has been said, rerolls to ones is still an insurance against gets hot, and everything about it is quite logical once you get used to it. I just think it needs a faq clarification, because it's something that can be understandably misunderstood.

Happy to see Fire Arcs go, so much easier.

I am glad GW have said how re-rolls work, we're all on the same page now.

Yeah, I think the re-roll situation could work, but I also want a clarification from GW, just so everyone is on the same page.

I don't want this thread to evolve into a firing arcs once, but I just find it strange that you don't measure LoS from a weapon on a tank anymore. Right now a tank can hide behind a wall, with an inch of their tracks showing, and from there you can fire all the weapons.

Like I said though, that's just my five cents, we don't need to discuss that here. If people are fine with the re-rolls I guess we can close this thread, if nothing else comes to mind that needs to be discussed.

So, just to clarify. If said marine rolls a 1 or 2 to hit, missing the target, he can reroll that shot due to whatever reroll special rule applies. But if he rolls a 3 and hits, the venomthrope then applies its - 1 and the marine misses. He can't reroll the 3 because technically it's a hit and once the modifier is applied it can't be rerolled? Is that right? It's been doing my head in all morning. :(

Marleymoo wrote:
So, just to clarify. If said marine rolls a 1 or 2 to hit, missing the target, he can reroll that shot due to whatever reroll special rule applies. But if he rolls a 3 and hits, the venomthrope then applies its - 1 and the marine misses. He can't reroll the 3 because technically it's a hit and once the modifier is applied it can't be rerolled? Is that right? It's been doing my head in all morning. :(

That is correct. Rerolls come before the modifiers, and it seems so do most other effects, such as Gets Hot.

The re-rolls before modifiers was at first weird but after consideration it makes sense. Were it not the case then modifiers to hit would be very weak advantages/disadvantages whilst re-rolls would be very strong. This way around those modifiers get a lot more leverage and things rely on them to operate like stealth suits, madrakes, venoms etc get a lot more bang for their buck doing it this way around. Anything that can cause blindness (Swooping Hawks etc) will get much more value out of that ability now.

Essentially if you have a negative modifier to hit, as well as suffering a 16% reduction in accuracy you have a 16% less chance to use a re-roll. If your unit is in a position to get a re-roll then the effectiveness of the unit is reduced by 33%. A DE army spamming venoms and fliers is going to reduce the effective shooting capability of opponents by a third, just from having those -1's to hit. That's huge.

A marine getting a re-roll to hit with a -1 penalty, applied before the re-roll is declared hits with a 75% accuracy chance. Forcing the re-roll before modifiers hits with a 66% accuracy chance. It's a noticeable difference and makes -1 to hit more powerful. I like it.

On a roll of x stuff means the physical roll not the modified one.
Reroll failed x means the physical roll not the modified one.

If I roll a 3 to hit with a marine, and nurgle/nids modify that down to a 2, I do not get to reroll.

This works with armor saves too if you ever get a reroll, which effectively ends the era of stupid rerollable unkillable units. The AP modifiers come after any rerolls. (Which would have DRASTICALLY changed how people percieved 6th and 7th ed.

Same with heavy weapons, I have rerolls on a 3+, if I move I'm still only rerolling 1's and 2's. This is countering a ton of the marine reroll nonsense a bit.

Overall this is a fantastic change, only "older" players will be confused by this as they have been playing another way for so long. (Thanks GW)

are there really not that many negative modifiers now? this seems like it could get confusing fast

 Twoshoes23 wrote:
are there really not that many negative modifiers now? this seems like it could get confusing fast

There are. Any heavy weapon that moves has a modifier. But they all work the same as far as we can tell at the moment, so it doesn't get confusing.

They have confirmed it:

https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Warhammer_40000_Designers_Commentary-ENG.pdf

Q: If a rule or ability grants a re-roll on, for example,
‘hit rolls of 1’ (such as a Space Marine Captain’s ‘Rites
of Battle’ ability) does that effect trigger before or
after applying modifiers to the hit rolls?
A: Re-rolls always happen before modifiers, so the re-roll
ability is triggered before applying modifiers.
For example, let’s imagine a Space Marine (Ballistic Skill 3+)
moves and fires a heavy bolter (a Heavy 3 weapon) whilst
within range of a Space Marine Captain’s ‘Rites of Battle’
ability (allowing you to re-roll hit rolls of 1).
The hit dice are rolled and result in a 1, 2 and 5.
Re-rolls are applied before modifiers. In this example a single
dice is re-rolled because of the Captain’s ability, this time
resulting in a 3.
Modifiers are applied after re-rolls. In this example there is
a -1 modifier to the hit rolls for moving and firing a Heavy
weapon. That means that the post-re-roll scores of 2, 3 and 5 are modified to 1, 2 and 4. Comparing the final results to the
model’s Ballistic Skill, only one shot hits the target

But ironically, Plasma Guns ignore this, so they only count if they have a 1 after all modifiers and rerrols.

So this opens up funny situations where you "hit" and no longer get a reroll (on things that get rerolls on every missed hit), only to have the modifier go "yoink" and deduct it far enough to count as a miss.

I like that. It makes modifiers more powerfull, and rerolls less reliables.