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 Kap'n Krump wrote:

I wholeheartedly disagree, it's stronger than ever before. You are correct that MANZ have an effective invlun now (which is pretty great), however, the rending system can easily take anyone's 2+ save down to a 3 or a 4 or a 5 or worse. Missile launchers, for example, knock saves from a 2+ to a 4+. But with a storm shield, it is never, ever, worse than a 3+. Take it from someone who doesn't have invluns in his entire army, having a set point below which your save can't be reduced, and having that point be as good as a 3+, is AMAZING.

It always comes at a cost of shooting.

In any case before lascannon would eat the terminator armor and leave the SS. A missile launcher would do nothing. Now a missile launcher 'activates' the SS as well as autocannons, battle cannons, and any other previous AP3 weapon out there.

Think of it this way - they're paying 5 points to maintain a worse save against weapons that they traditionally ignored - at the cost of shooting.

 Hollow wrote:
8th is all but here and I've been scrolling through the various leaks (although I'm looking forward to getting my grubby mitts on the real book ASAP) as well as watching many battle reports on YouTube. It's really looking as though 8th is the most balanced edition ever made. What seems to be transpiring (and I'm liking) is that there doesn't seem to be any 'point-n-click' options when it comes to list building. All factions have the good, bad and ugly and the idea of a particular unit being 'OP' doesn't seem to hold much water as all factions are able to counter each other. Things tend to be a lot more situational. As a Tau player (mainly) everything seems to have it's use, or can find itself being quite useless if used in the wrong way. My view is that the days of auto-pick, point and click powerful TAC lists are over.

Be Catachans.
Bring Sgt. Harker
Bring 4 Company Commanders
Bring 8 Command Squad w/ Plasma

586 points BS 3+ re-rolling 1s on everything re-rolling 1s to wound

64 plasma shots. Averages 46 wounds on T4 and below.

They kill close to their points in MEQ per turn.

Its not hard just have to look in the right places.

Remember that mortal wounds are a thing. Those don't care about your pretty storm shields

As pointed out: give it time.
People need to play with the various units and wrap their brain around the points vs. capability.
It will start being "game-on" when the bunch of us have our books and start digging into it.
Or those of us who start populating Excel spreadsheets....

MaxT wrote:
Remember that mortal wounds are a thing. Those don't care about your pretty storm shields

Yeah very true, and there's stuff like the ironclad with launchers doing d3 mortal wounds right off the bat just for charging.

MaxT wrote:
Remember that mortal wounds are a thing. Those don't care about your pretty storm shields

Fair enough; but Orkz don't have access to mortal wounds in any sort of real capacity (no snipers or anything). They've got;

Big Gun Zapp Gun - on Str rolls of 11-12 (2d6), it does 3 mortal wounds
Tankbusta Tankhammer - one use, d3 mortal wounds, kills the bearer afterwards
Deffkopta Big Bomm - one use, 1d6 per unit flown over (max 5d6), deals 1 mortal wound per 5+ rolled
Burna-Bommer Burna Bomb - one use, 1d6 per unit flown over (max 10d6), deals 1 mortal wound per 5+ rolled (4+ vs infantry)
Blitza-Bommer Boom Bomb - one use, 1d6 per unit flown over (3d6 per Vehicle/Monster flown over, max 10d6), deals 1 mortal wound per 4+ rolled

I know Mortal Wounds are rare for other factions; but I'm not sure how rare (looking at Ratlings/other snipers) - for Orks, they're all one shot attacks on models that cost 50-200+ points that also have to move over the unit to affect it. To kill a single terminator in a 5 man squad, you need to roll three 4+ rolls on 5d6, not particularly reliable.

So, in essence, Storm Shields will always get the 3+ vs Orks.

Again, I know mortal wounds are rarer for everone, as armor is a big deal this edition - but; they shouldn't be 5 points, lol.

Sorry but any game will be optimized and min/maxed. 8th edition will be no different than the seven previous editions. I'm just hoping the powergaming isn't dialed to 11 like it was in 7th edition but by year's end after the min/max crowd has gotten their hands on a few tournaments you will see the new OP lists dominating tables and people scrambling to netlist them same as the past twenty odd years.

I've already begun spreadsheeting the statistics to find the underpointed units and just having gone through about 50% of the armies now there are a few that stick out pretty well.

 auticus wrote:
Sorry but any game will be optimized and min/maxed. 8th edition will be no different than the seven previous editions. I'm just hoping the powergaming isn't dialed to 11 like it was in 7th edition but by year's end after the min/max crowd has gotten their hands on a few tournaments you will see the new OP lists dominating tables and people scrambling to netlist them same as the past twenty odd years.

I've already begun spreadsheeting the statistics to find the underpointed units and just having gone through about 50% of the armies now there are a few that stick out pretty well.

Exactly and exalted.

Add to the fact that, with 3 detachments even at 1001pts you can pretty much field whatever you want.

Competitive gamers going to tournamets are going to use the most OP and broken combos. Thats a reality. Even if that gives them only a 10% of advantage.

Some other compettitive players will addapt to the meta and use a list that is a hard counter to the 90% of the OP lists of the actual metagame.

But I find that many people is talking about powergamers and OP builds/lists as something that only happens in 40k... it happens everywhere!

But is a honest criticism to do, about how W40K is just bad balanced in every aspect of his ruleset, not only because it has 1-2 lists that are more powerfull.

Given that this edition has a lot of buffs going around outside of psychic powers and they require the characters to stay alive, as well as more in-game actions happening, min-maxing your list like before will probably have less of an effect against people who have better tactics. Having a superior list will be an advantage, but having good tactics would probably help out a lot more than simply having good units.

fe40k wrote:

MaxT wrote:
Remember that mortal wounds are a thing. Those don't care about your pretty storm shields

Fair enough; but Orkz don't have access to mortal wounds in any sort of real capacity (no snipers or anything). They've got;

Big Gun Zapp Gun - on Str rolls of 11-12 (2d6), it does 3 mortal wounds
Tankbusta Tankhammer - one use, d3 mortal wounds, kills the bearer afterwards
Deffkopta Big Bomm - one use, 1d6 per unit flown over (max 5d6), deals 1 mortal wound per 5+ rolled
Burna-Bommer Burna Bomb - one use, 1d6 per unit flown over (max 10d6), deals 1 mortal wound per 5+ rolled (4+ vs infantry)
Blitza-Bommer Boom Bomb - one use, 1d6 per unit flown over (3d6 per Vehicle/Monster flown over, max 10d6), deals 1 mortal wound per 4+ rolled

I know Mortal Wounds are rare for other factions; but I'm not sure how rare (looking at Ratlings/other snipers) - for Orks, they're all one shot attacks on models that cost 50-200+ points that also have to move over the unit to affect it. To kill a single terminator in a 5 man squad, you need to roll three 4+ rolls on 5d6, not particularly reliable.

So, in essence, Storm Shields will always get the 3+ vs Orks.

Again, I know mortal wounds are rarer for everone, as armor is a big deal this edition - but; they shouldn't be 5 points, lol.

How's ork access to psykers? I don't know much of anything about orks so I don't know how valuable weird boys or their other(if they have any?) psyker options are but my experiences have already shown smite to be a fantastic, consistent method of doling out mortal wounds.

Not that spectacular if I recall. Weirdboyz are HQ choices or something like that so it makes them rather rare when you could use the slot and points to get actual buffers. And the ones you will take will probably be used mainly for Da Jump or backups for when they start biting it hard.

 Galas wrote:

But I find that many people is talking about powergamers and OP builds/lists as something that only happens in 40k... it happens everywhere!

Show me an obviously overpowered list in Infinity. I do not believe that such thing exists so it does not happen everywhere.

Anyone thinking that GW will suddenly start caring about balance and gameplay is deluding themselves.
The style of most new GW games and rules is that of a Transformers movie: it is loud, flashy and goes "boom", but in the end it is shallow and stupid.

Whenever a miniature game introduces the "buff and debuff" rule some amount of balance goes out the window.
Any rule that augments other models within radius is BAD for any wargame with fixed point values per model.
That kind of rules are almost impossible to correctly price because of all possible variations.
It should be fairly obvious from game design point of view that buffs should be avoided if your aim is to have balanced rules.
When I realized that so many characters or models confer some kind of buff on surrounding units I have lost all confidence in the future of 8th edition.

Arachnofiend wrote:

fe40k wrote:

MaxT wrote:
Remember that mortal wounds are a thing. Those don't care about your pretty storm shields

Fair enough; but Orkz don't have access to mortal wounds in any sort of real capacity (no snipers or anything). They've got;

Big Gun Zapp Gun - on Str rolls of 11-12 (2d6), it does 3 mortal wounds
Tankbusta Tankhammer - one use, d3 mortal wounds, kills the bearer afterwards
Deffkopta Big Bomm - one use, 1d6 per unit flown over (max 5d6), deals 1 mortal wound per 5+ rolled
Burna-Bommer Burna Bomb - one use, 1d6 per unit flown over (max 10d6), deals 1 mortal wound per 5+ rolled (4+ vs infantry)
Blitza-Bommer Boom Bomb - one use, 1d6 per unit flown over (3d6 per Vehicle/Monster flown over, max 10d6), deals 1 mortal wound per 4+ rolled

I know Mortal Wounds are rare for other factions; but I'm not sure how rare (looking at Ratlings/other snipers) - for Orks, they're all one shot attacks on models that cost 50-200+ points that also have to move over the unit to affect it. To kill a single terminator in a 5 man squad, you need to roll three 4+ rolls on 5d6, not particularly reliable.

So, in essence, Storm Shields will always get the 3+ vs Orks.

Again, I know mortal wounds are rarer for everone, as armor is a big deal this edition - but; they shouldn't be 5 points, lol.

How's ork access to psykers? I don't know much of anything about orks so I don't know how valuable weird boys or their other(if they have any?) psyker options are but my experiences have already shown smite to be a fantastic, consistent method of doling out mortal wounds.

Good question - Orks have 1 Psyker; the Weirdboy.

His ability's are Smite, plus one of the following below:

'Eadbanger - Charge value: 6 - Roll a d6 and compare it to the closest visible model within 9"; if the die roll exceeds the toughness characteristic of the model, it is slain.
Warpath - Charge value: 7 - Choose a friendly Ork unit within 6", increase that unit's Attack Characteristic by 1 until your next Psychic phase.
Da Jump - Charge value: 7 - Select a friendly Ork Infantry unit within 6", and set it up anywhere on the battlefield more than 9" away from enemy models. They count as having moved in the movement phase.

Weirdboyz also have a special rule - they get +1 to Psychic tests per 10 friendly Ork models within 10"; however, if their total is 12+, they immediately Perils of the Warp.

So, they only have one Psyker, an HQ unit - but he's not bad at all. He'll get at least one super charged spell off on average (since he has 4 wounds, he can survive the first d3 mortal wounds Peril without issue); but then after that, it gets real dicey.

I haven't considered a Smite spam list via Weirdboyz; it might be ok if you have enough boyz around; but at some point, they're likely to blow up and splat all over everyone. They do have some really nice spells though (If you can position JUST PERFECTLY, and get real lucky with your dice rolls - 'Eadbanger MIGHT be good - instant kills are always something interesting; but if that doesn't work, he's spamming Smite).

It could work just make sure you dont have more then 30 boys around and you get +4 making your D6 mortal wounds chances like 60% and you can use CP for rerolls. 6 weird boys could average 18 mortal wounds a turn.

There is definitely some way out of whack stuff. Super heavies are better in melee than bloodthirsters, Guilliman is undercosted, and the game overall favors numbers. There will be no more balance here than in 7th. Game plays well however, and now you can play both 8th and optimized 7th with Age of Darkness.