Space Marines - Upcoming Releases [News: FAQ August 10th]

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**casvalremdeikun**

At least we know that Space Marines have to give something up to do their fun new things (opportunity cost is still a cost).

**frozenwastes**

I get that their goal was to make "fluffy" armies better by rewarding things rather than just doing hard limits.

Every approach to game design has trade offs and how much a given "that makes no sense" item bothers you or not is going to be very individualistic. I just happen to think this is one area where post hoc explanations don't cover it. Nor do I think it really accomplishes much in terms of real limitations.

But I'm actually an advocate for gamers policing themselves. So if someone splits their detachments up so one has the assault stuff and gets a reroll on charges because they are black templar successors while the other detachment full of stuff that wants to sit back and shoot gets -1 to be hit or gets rerolls or whatever and another chunk gets a third chapter tactic and the army still has 8 command points, I think it's the local group's job to say no to that person. Even if I am disappointed that the rules meant to prevent this don't really work. That's where we step in as humans that can make decisions and tell the people such gaming of the system should be kept to tournaments.

**Galas**

People is gonna complaint if Factions have all of their cool faction rules like Legion Traits or Chapter Tactics and they can take allies of whatever they like without any restrictions.

Other people is gonna complaint if they can't do that.

So, maybe is because different people want different things of their games? And... maybe ... hm... maybe GW has tought about that? And... has done a separation between both styles of play... like one more... rescrictive and balanced game, like for... matched games and other where you don't have restrictions based in pure balance and you can have everything you want that is... narrative driven?
If only...

**frozenwastes**

Absolutely. Don't disagree with any of that. I just disagree with the post hoc fictional justifications and don't quite think the rule meets GW's own stated goal of rewarding fluffy armies with benefits.

To be honest though, I never expected them to actually get it right. Too many variables and possible combinations. And tons of armies in the fiction have worked side by side with others (without losing their abilities or the unique way they fight-- often these movements in the fiction are when the differences and capabilities are at their most pronounced). To the point that "right" or "fluffy" is hard to define and only truly extreme examples of wrong stand out.

I think the responsibility for army composition is on the player and just see this detachment based bonuses as another opportunity for the bark-bark-star crowd to do what they do. I hope they enjoy themselves even if it's not something I'm into.

**Elbows**

I agree - I don't think a few extra CP's is going to sway someone from putting various Chapter detachments together to create a type of Chapter Death Star.

**Ghaz**

Haven't seen this pic of the Redemptor posted here yet. From War of Sigmar:

Hello everyone !!

Sculptor's talk about the new dread:

- 8 months work
- Lots of tests with helmet/human looking/ sarcophagus ...
- Wanted a BIG and Heavy Dread.
- They even animated it to see articulation moving
- Arms can be locked without glue

- Rocket on top (turn + elevation, quite mobile and quick reacting gun, maybe anti air?)
- Chest plate opens up to show off painted sarcophagus+cables ^^
- Center weapon (Rocket or bolter + future upgrade could be stuff like a flamer for Salamanders)
- All armor plates are separate like the Imperial Knight (so you can build the exoskeleton and then add the plates)
- Anti infantry/tank option on hardpoints.

Lots of design talk

I love that model - I need an army of them!

/cheers.
bob.

**Desubot**

Oh neat it opens up.
it actually looks better with the sarcophagus open like that maybe its all that armor that i dont like about it.

**changemod**

Desubot wrote:
Oh neat it opens up.
it actually looks better with the sarcophagus open like that maybe its all that armor that i dont like about it.

The biggest problem with the design is a mismatch between the limbs and the body: The body is boxy and square, even moreso than the Castaferrum (standard dread), but the arms are comparatively much more lanky and rounded. Either element looks fine in isolation, but the overall effect is dubious- I've seen a few complementary angles, but it doesn't look cohesive. It's a genuine shame they didn't follow through harder on the subtle rogue trader dreadnought design elements, a bit more and it'd have been more rounded overall.

All that said, the exposed sarcophagus gives it a lot more character.

**Crimson**

I still don't like the dread, but it is cool that it opens. It will probably look better just without the sarcophagus covering armour. Too bad that there's no easy way to fix the legs.

**Desubot**

changemod wrote:
Desubot wrote:
Oh neat it opens up.
it actually looks better with the sarcophagus open like that maybe its all that armor that i dont like about it.

The biggest problem with the design is a mismatch between the limbs and the body: The body is boxy and square, even moreso than the Castaferrum (standard dread), but the arms are comparatively much more lanky and rounded. Either element looks fine in isolation, but the overall effect is dubious- I've seen a few complementary angles, but it doesn't look cohesive. It's a genuine shame they didn't follow through harder on the subtle rogue trader dreadnought design elements, a bit more and it'd have been more rounded overall.

All that said, the exposed sarcophagus gives it a lot more character.

Dunno looking at the normal dreads, they all do that.

Boxy center

rounded leg and arm armor.

maybe its that the extra front armor makes it look more pointy

i dont know. its ether that or it might just be that it doesnt have that iconic dread shape with the front armor on

**Grot 6**

Not to get off topic just a little bit, but the new standee in the stores with the package deals, added 3, 5, and 6 packs, the different sized starters, and the whole introduction experience is making it very hard to get my daily dose of GW hate on.

In the flesh, the Reavers look like Cobra troops from G.I.Joe. I'm going to get a box, and add them to the deathwatch kill team. My current ones need someone to look up to.

Do you all like the new paint sets for the base armies from that new boxed set, and as a second question- How is the new paint texture working for you in covering the models?

**casvalremdeikun**

I still like the new dread. The question for me is do I want to do cheat missiles or boltguns? Obviously I am going with the giant Plasma Incinerator for the main weapon. I like Gatling Good on my dreads normally, but that plasma gun looks better.

**NinthMusketeer**

For every person criticising CTs only working in a mono-marine detachment there's one that would be criticising them if they didn't. For every person criticising that Space Marines get a CT upgrade for little to no price there's one who would be if they did come with a notable drawback. For every person upset with the release date of the codex there's one who would be upset if it were later.

GW can't win.

**BrianDavion**

NinthMusketeer wrote:
For every person criticising CTs only working in a mono-marine detachment there's one that would be criticising them if they didn't. For every person criticising that Space Marines get a CT upgrade for little to no price there's one who would be if they did come with a notable drawback. For every person upset with the release date of the codex there's one who would be upset if it were later.

GW can't win.

I think a vast majority of players are happy with CTs. the fact is prior to this announcement the one over whelming complaint was the lack of sub faction flavor to armies. I SUSPECT the people complaining about it are a vocal minority.

**Galas**

People is more willing to write and make noise about something they don't like that about something they like. Thats why normally the biggest mayority of threads about anything on the internet are of negative nature.

First one need to realize that the people that uses forums is really a minority in relation with the "mass". And of that people, the ones that actually just don't read but also write in, are even a smaller group. And then you find those "I have read in 5 forums about how people dislike this, so his a fact that everybody dislike it and they should change that!" type of guys.

**BrianDavion**

Galas wrote:
People is more willing to write and make noise about something they don't like that about something they like. Thats why normally the biggest mayority of threads about anything on the internet are of negative nature.

First one need to realize that the people that uses forums is really a minority in relation with the "mass". And of that people, the ones that actually just don't read but also write in, are even a smaller group. And then you find those "I have read in 5 forums about how people dislike this, so his a fact that everybody dislike it and they should change that!" type of guys.

yup, fact is that b ack in 6th and 7th the biggest complaint about CTs wasn't that they existed. etc. it was "... I want that too!" thats not what you hear if people dislike an idea. it's what you hear when people like an idea and want it expanded on

**Galas**

I find legitimate the criticism about how Codex armies with Faction special rules are gonna be, in general, better than Index armies without them, unless the case of some Index armies that are very good and don't need extra rules to compete.

But the GW release schedule is what it is. They wan't to release Codex, and I find cumberstome giving CT a point cost to then erase it after every army has a Codex.
I play Tau so at this point winning or losing for them isn't about having a special layer of rules

**NinthMusketeer**

It seems to me like vanilla marines were a bit sub-par overall anyway. But then I'm playing nids...

**BrianDavion**

NinthMusketeer wrote:
It seems to me like vanilla marines were a bit sub-par overall anyway. But then I'm playing nids...

and the evidance seems to support your opinion, right now Marines are in the ITC rankings on the lower rung, assuming chapter tactics gives them a ~20% buff, they'd be in a good balanced position

**MajorWesJanson**

Eyeballing it, it looks like the sarcophagus faceplate is taller than the standard dreadnought version :(

**evancich**

Does anybody have details on the different editions of the codex?

**H.B.M.C.**

evancich wrote:
Does anybody have details on the different editions of the codex?

1. Expensive.
2. Really expensive.
2. Super fething expensive.

**Warhams-77**

Nogle - War of Sigmar comments / Disqus

Sculptor let slip that this is the first in a series of primaris dreads

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Does someone have reliable information on the EUR prices for tomorrow's products?

**Yodhrin**

str00dles1 wrote:
But, who cares?

Its a way to try to kinda maybe balance it for tourney play. Its literally impossible to make rules fit real life in every case. (Or real life of how fluff "would" "should" be)

This is why they made open play. Play however you want in open play cause it doesent matter. If it bothers people that much, there's your option.

BrianDavion wrote:
I have no issue with this limiter it's certainly wonky fluff wise but sometimes you gotta sacrifice fluff for fairness.

Unless anyone seriously thinks Marines should be as awesome as they're depicted in some of the bolter porn out there

You guys are kinda missing his point - there is no sacrifice, or at least not one of any significance, and so it's not actually fairer at all.

Not half a dozen pages ago people were denouncing the old Chapter Tactics system from back in the day because its "disadvantages" were really nothing of the kind, as you just chose a "disadvantage" that didn't affect the way your army worked. Frozenwastes is pointing out that the exact same criticism applies here, because you can just juggle which units are in which detachment a little in a pretty "gamey" way and you're golden.

All they've done is add a wee layer of gamey obfuscation you have to get your head around and "Imperial soup" will continue to function just as it does now, because keywords is what keeps the subfactions distinct not detachments. It's needless complication that will only serve to trap the unwary and inexperienced.

If the limitation was that your whole army across any and all detachments had to be from the same faction, that would be a sacrifice, but using detachments just means inflicting a few minutes of extra pointless paperwork on people at the listbuilding phase for no substantial benefit to the "fairness" of the game.

In the end, while I support making the rules as tight as they can in context, we do have to remember that context - GW's business model simply isn't compatible with making their two main games properly balanced, no matter how many gamey little tricks they put in, so why bother with the gamey little tricks at all?

**JohnnyHell**

The 'no mixing if you want buffs' is a simple and efficient way of not giving Assassins Marine tactics, for example.

And to take one line Assassin you'd have to lose a CP when list building, unless you add two more Imperial Elites and an HQ. So there are balances. Not huge ones, but little impediments.

**Yodhrin**

JohnnyHell wrote:
The 'no mixing if you want buffs' is a simple and efficient way of not giving Assassins Marine tactics, for example.

And to take one line Assassin you'd have to lose a CP when list building, unless you add two more Imperial Elites and an HQ. So there are balances. Not huge ones, but little impediments.

Again though, neither of those statements really work.

In the first case, Assassins wouldn't get Marine tactics anyway because they don't have Marine keywords. Limiting Chapter Tactics to their appropriate <Chapter> keyword already prevents sharing them, even with other Marines from a different <Chapter>, even if they were all in the same detachment.

In the second case, you simply separate out any of your Space Marine units that won't benefit from Chapter Tactics or which would be a bigger benefit with such units and you'll be able to find one of the several variant detachments that will fit those and your Assassin in. There will be edge cases where there's a small disadvantage, sure, but in most cases there's no impediment at all once you realise detachments only matter for maximising CP and keyword overlap and otherwise it doesn't matter what specific detachment the different bits of your army end up in.

In fact, the more you move your army towards "Imperial soup", ie the thing that people are asserting this "restriction" will discourage, the easier it is to sidestep the restriction.

For my money, stuff like CT and Canticles should be inherent to the appropriate keywords and should function regardless of army composition because they're meant to represent how units with said keywords inherently operate, while the army-specific Stratagems should be the incentive to and reward for monobuilds, requiring your whole army across all detachments to be from one source and share the same keyword. If the Strats are balanced appropriately, that would make army construction both balanced and make more sense from both background and logic perspectives.

But, things are the way they are - people just need to understand that this way of doing things isn't actually going to do much to stop soup builds.

**JohnnyHell**

It's not designed to. And 'soup builds' as a perjorative is meaningless, as it's appealing to others as they can field a varied army. There's a lot of "stop liking what I don't like" in your post. ;-)

**casdark**

I need a recap. Can we play an army and mix them with another? Do they still mantain their faction bonus?
Thanks!

**Yodhrin**

JohnnyHell wrote:
It's not designed to. And 'soup builds' as a perjorative is meaningless, as it's appealing to others as they can field a varied army. There's a lot of "stop liking what I don't like" in your post. ;-)

Eh? First, that's one of the exact things people were talking about as being the reason for it working this way. Addressing the fact it won't is literally the reason this chain of posts started. Second - pejorative? Whit? It's just the phrase that I've seen used for Imperial armies using units from multiple different factions, there's no inherent value judgement in the term and none was even implied in my post. You're jumping to conclusions like bloody Spiderman chief, try taking what people write as face value rather than loading them with your own assumptions(which are particularly hilarious given that the only legal army I could field would be Imperial Soup and I've argued previously that one of the best things about 6/7th was Allies).

casdark wrote:
I need a recap. Can we play an army and mix them with another? Do they still mantain their faction bonus?
Thanks!

1. You can take all the units you like from any faction in a single detachment providing they share one keyword(eg, "Imperium"), but you won't gain any of the upcoming army-specific bonuses(Canticles/CT/etc and special Statagems).

2. You can take your entire army from a single Codex source with a single faction or sub-faction keyword(eg "Adeptus Astartes" or "Imperial Fists") and gain additional bonuses accordingly.

3. You can "fudge" a middle way between those two by carefully assigning units from multiple armies to various detachments to maintain most and sometimes all of the benefits of 2 while retaining most of the flexibility of 1 - for example Chapter Tactics apply to Infantry, Characters, and Dreadnoughts with the appropriate <Chapter> keyword that are in the same detachment, but vehicles and a few other units don't gain any benefit from CT, so if you wanted to take other <Imperial> units you could put them in a second detachment and use your Space Marine vehicles to fill out some of the requirements on that.

**aracersss**

Last Chapter Focus ...

...BT DtW like a champ!!!!

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/21/chapter-focus-the-imperial-fists-crimson-fists-and-black-templars-july21gw-homepage-post-3/

Chapter Focus: The Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists and Black Templars

The Imperial Fists and their successors are renowned and feared across the Imperium, and while they may differ in tactics they are all stubborn, indomitable warriors, infused with bitter pride and martial prowess. The Imperial Fists are masters of the close-ranged firefight, making maximum use of bolt weaponry, while the Black Templars are zealous crusaders famed for their fighting spirit and expertise in melee combat. The Crimson Fists, too, are renowned warriors, having escaped destruction at the hands of the Orks through sheer tenacity and recently been given a new lease on life thanks to reinforcements from the Ultima Founding.

The Imperial Fists Chapter Tactic allows them to ignore cover with their shooting attacks; this is an incredibly powerful bonus that’ll be punishing for enemy tanks and infantry alike. There’s no hiding from the masters of siegecraft! This Chapter Tactic benefits infantry, bikers and Dreadnoughts, and you’ll be free to build your own Imperial Fists however you choose, whether you’re using massed Tactical Marines or taking advantage of your Devastators. Naturally, the Imperial Fists are a great Chapter if you want to focus on using bolt weapons – their unique Stratagem, Bolter Drill, allows for you to drown enemies in devastatingly accurate fusillades of bolter fire, while even their unique relic, The Spartean, is a bolt pistol.

Finally, your Imperial Fists will be indomitable in defense thanks to their unique Warlord Trait:

Crimson Fists armies use the bolter-based and cover-ignoring tactics of their brethren, but have a few distinguishing features that make them worthy of a closer look. Firstly, Pedro Kantor is back, and is a superb force multiplier, offering his brethren additional attacks and rerolls to hit – Emperor protect anyone who tries to charge a gunline with him in it.

Perhaps one of the most exciting additions to the Crimson Fists is a literal Crimson Fist to equip your characters with. Combined with their Warlord Trait, which allows an outnumbered general to increase his number of attacks, this is going to be a fun and thematic addition to your army.

In stark contrast to their brethren, the Black Templars are an assault army first and foremost. Every unit with the Black Templars Chapter Tactics can re-roll failed charges; this is an enormous bonus, and one that will make the Black Templars one of the most powerful assault armies not just for the Space Marines but in the entire game. Deep-strikers like Assault Terminators and Inceptors, in particular, are going to be very dangerous in the Black Templars army. As well as the new units, Black Templars retain access to old favourites like the Crusader Squad and the Emperor’s Champion, and there are some great combinations to be unlocked by combining characters like High Marshal Helbrecht with new assault units like the Reivers.

While the Black Templars have no Psykers of their own, their unique Stratagem, Abhor the Witch, allows Black Templars units to negate psychic powers through sheer force of will – this doesn’t just apply to the shooting powers but to auras and support powers too. The Black Templars are a distinctive and powerful force, and one that’ll be able to make great use of the new codex.

The Imperial Fists and their Successors are the Chapters you’ll want to pick if you like facing your enemy head on, whether you’re cutting them down at range with hails of fire or charging to meet them in brutal melee. You’ll be able to bring powerful Chapter Tactics to your games very, very soon – Codex: Space Marines is available to pre-order tomorrow, alongside the Redemptor Dreadnought and some other new units we can’t wait to show you.