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IDK, she was made this powerful at the end of 7th, and kept this powerful with 8th. I think they want her to be this strong.

Certainly she's kind of a crutch for our army right now.

 Melissia wrote:
IDK, she was made this powerful at the end of 7th, and kept this powerful with 8th. I think they want her to be this strong.

No. That's a trick. Remember, GW comes from the same country that gave us George R.R. Martin. And just like the Fat Man in a Hat, they aren't happy unless all their fans are miserable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:
And that's why people like SBs on battle sister squads now. Because you can usually get two rounds of shooting off with them while only getting one off with flamers. Meltas are what you stick on dominions, where their numbers results in a lot more wounds than otherwise on hard to kill targets. I mean you can put flamers on them. And it'll work. But it's kinda expensive pointswise.

Giving the Doms Meltas, while AWESOME, in my mind doesn't seem to take best advantage of their Vanguard move. My thought is to give the Doms and their Sister Superior all Stormbolters, and let the BSS, and their Sister Superior, all take Meltas/Combi-Meltas. The Rets, of course, get Heavy Bolters.

Keep in mind that my Sisters are a foot slogging army. As always, Sisters are a short range firepower army. And if we keep in mind the insightful comment from MacPhail on Page 12 of this Tactica, they are a Beta Strike army.

With our infantry units so cheap even after being well upgraded, a Sisters army is going to have a LOT of drops. That means we will be going second. And we WANT to go second. We want out opponent to advance towards us, into range of our Domino's Stormbolters and our Ret's Heavy Bolters. And yes, our Rets will be moving & shooting, accepting the -1 for the glorious opportunity of hip-firing four Heavy Bolters every turn. Sometimes even TWICE a turn!

With the Doms & Rets killing enemy infantry like flies, and the Doms eventually, inevitably, dying because that's what the Vanguard does, that will leave the BSSs to mop up with their Melta.

This all makes perfect sense in my head. I just need to buy $600 worth of Sisters models to test it out.

phydaux wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

phydaux wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

phydaux wrote:
He didn't have anything inside the Landraiders or the Razorbacks?

No. Nothing inside.

That's mystifying. Was he playtesting some kind of proof of concept army list?

No. I am lead to believe he had been winning games with that list, because the saturation of armor was just too great for other armies to deal with, and the Land Raiders offer a lot of firepower.

So way is that your girls & vehicles just had too much Melta for him? No one does Melta like the Sisters.

That, and Big C seemed to do really well. I see a HUGE nerf coming to her, and that RIGHT quick.

No, I have about a similar, maybe marginally higher, level of antitank than the average list. Two melta squads and their melta-armed transports, plus a Penitent Engine. More importantly, I was fast.

Most other armies wouldn't be able to engage him in close quarters until their second turn, at best, and because he has 6 drops he's almost always going first, so he gets two salvos against most other players, realistically three-and-a-half because he can sack the Razorbacks to protect the Land Raiders from those charges, and get to fire a seriously brutal overwatch with his tanks when they do get charged.

Three razorbacks can keep the enemy deepstrikers, which Tyranid and Ork T1 Assault lists rely on, well away from the serious tanks, and on T2 Assault lists, the Razorbacks can intervene as well to protect the Land Raiders for a turn. Since the League, for some unknown reason, is using Power Levels, he's also got 6 H-K Missiles to dump into enemy armor T1 and crack open some Rhinos, and storm bolters across the board to further bolters his overwatch.


There are two key elements of the Sisters that gave me the decisive advantage: I can cross the 24" no-man's land in 1 turn from an on-board start, therefore ignoring the deep-strike perimeter the Razorbacks create, and my units make their move before the start of the game.

Because my Immolators were already halfway there when they took his opening salvo, they's already done their primary job. It's impossible for him to stop my troops from moving up. It doesn't matter if they blow up, it's too late for him, my troops are already there.



I have to disagree with your assessment that we are a beta-strike army. Doubled-up Dominions in Repressors makes for an absolutely fantastic alpha strike, the likes of which none can truly match. Combine this with Seraphim and Celestine and their absolutely insane movement speed, we can access almost the entire enemy deployment zone for Melee, Melta, and Storm Bolter Rapid Fire in the first turn, and there's not a single thing the enemy can do to prevent it, because unlike, say, Berzerker Boxes, our tanks have already done their job regardless of whether we go first or second. And doubling-up Dominions in Repressors does make for a fairly good chance of first go.

Thanks for the reply, Katherine

phydaux wrote:
Thanks for the reply, Katherine

Hold on, I re-read my post, and I don't in any way intend to imply that you are playing the wrong way by disagreeing with your assessment.

I'm sure we're more than capable of a second-strike, but our sheer first-strike potential should not be discounted, I think, when building lists.


There are advantages and disadvantages to both.

Inherently, a Repressor or Immolator has less firepower than a squad of Dominions. So a second-strike list would achieve a higher theoretical density of fire. However, a second strike list also has to suffer the enemy's full firepower on its first turn, yields the strategic initiative to the enemy, and is likely unable to bring its full firepower to bear in its first round of shooting, meaning it has to suffer a theoretical 2 turns of firing before it reaches range to achieve it's hypothetical maximum fire density.

The way I see it is, that a first strike list, especially considering our short range, has initiative. I get to chose where I go, and I get to chose where the enemy goes. I get to chose which targets I shoot at and I get to chose which targets the enemy shoots at. A second strike list, however, is reactive. The enemy chooses where their forces go, and I have to move in response, and the enemy chooses what his forces will be in range and line of fire of, and I react as I can.

Of course, that's not to say that defense-and-counterattack is always inferior to premptive attack. After all, information is also an important part of any strategy game, and a reactive play is inherently a better-informed play than a proactive play. Situations may warrant different approaches as the need arises, so most importantly, a list must be flexible enough to alter its strategy as the actual, not theoretical, situation requires.

Neither way is strictly correct, as it's only a wrong way to play if it doesn't win.

phydaux wrote:

That, and Big C seemed to do really well. I see a HUGE nerf coming to her, and that RIGHT quick.

If they end up nerfing Celestine, they'd have to seriously rebalance the rest of the faction. Celestine is a massive crutch that fills a huge amount of gaps in the army.

I'm just coming back to the game after... so many years... It's Celestine who brought me back, to be honest. Sisters of Battle in 2nd edition were my first real army, and it's interesting to see how much the army has changed (and kind of super disappointing to see how it's in a lot of ways still the same).

I never actually picked up any Repentia because I didn't care for the models, and in 3rd edition at least they were considered a pretty bad unit. Has that changed at all? Is it worth my time to hunt down some good looking proxy models, or are they not really very viable. Because they don't look viable, but I feel like I may be missing something since it's been so long since i've played.

phydaux wrote:
No. That's a trick. Remember, GW comes from the same country that gave us George R.R. Martin. And just like the Fat Man in a Hat, they aren't happy unless all their fans are miserable.

GRRM was born in NJ.

Giving the Doms Meltas, while AWESOME, in my mind doesn't seem to take best advantage of their Vanguard move. My thought is to give the Doms and their Sister Superior all Stormbolters, and let the BSS, and their Sister Superior, all take Meltas/Combi-Meltas. The Rets, of course, get Heavy Bolters.

SB don't need the Vanguard to be useful, Melta do.

Keep in mind that my Sisters are a foot slogging army. As always, Sisters are a short range firepower army. And if we keep in mind the insightful comment from MacPhail on Page 12 of this Tactica, they are a Beta Strike army.

Okay, a couple things here. Sisters CAN be a foot slogging army. For most of their history, however, they have played best as a mech or mixed mech army and not a foot slogging one. This includes now. Additionally, although they do beta strike excellently, they can also be an alpha strike army.

With our infantry units so cheap even after being well upgraded, a Sisters army is going to have a LOT of drops. That means we will be going second. And we WANT to go second. We want out opponent to advance towards us, into range of our Domino's Stormbolters and our Ret's Heavy Bolters. And yes, our Rets will be moving & shooting, accepting the -1 for the glorious opportunity of hip-firing four Heavy Bolters every turn. Sometimes even TWICE a turn!

And if you're playing against an army that doesn't advance and just shoots you off the board? Sometimes you need to take out the superheavy, giant battlesuit, etc. first before it blows up half your army.

 Melissia wrote:
They buff the priest himself, since he is an Adeptus Ministorum unit within 6" of himself. I don't think they stack.

You're right. The wording on War Hymns says you get the additional attack if you meet the proper keywords and you're within 6" of any friendly Ministorum Priest. There can be 100 priests within 6", you still only get +1A because of any.

 jake wrote:
I'm just coming back to the game after... so many years... It's Celestine who brought me back, to be honest.

In what way, if you don't mind me asking?

Auras of the same name don't stack. FAQ.

I gave up Sisters and the game after the Witch Hunters codex. It felt like a slap in the face after waiting so long, especially in 3rd edition where everything was suddenly moving to plastic and getting new units and expanded rules. For a long time I said the only thing that would bring me back to 40k was a good Sisters codex and good new models. I ended up coming back to play some Tyranids a few years ago, but otherwise I stayed away. But I have a few friends who are starting over with this edition and they were excited to tell me that there were new plastic Sisters. It turns out it was only Celestine, but it is a beautiful model and once I bought it I realized how much I had missed playing Sisters and how much I liked the character of the army, if not always it's execution. So I've decided to give them a try again and hope to go that GW decides to give them a real update sometime soon. But I've been waiting 20 years, so I know I shouldn't get my hopes up.

 jake wrote:
I gave up Sisters and the game after the Witch Hunters codex. It felt like a slap in the face after waiting so long, especially in 3rd edition where everything was suddenly moving to plastic and getting new units and expanded rules. For a long time I said the only thing that would bring me back to 40k was a good Sisters codex and good new models. I ended up coming back to play some Tyranids a few years ago, but otherwise I stayed away. But I have a few friends who are starting over with this edition and they were excited to tell me that there were new plastic Sisters. It turns out it was only Celestine, but it is a beautiful model and once I bought it I realized how much I had missed playing Sisters and how much I liked the character of the army, if not always it's execution. So I've decided to give them a try again and hope to go that GW decides to give them a real update sometime soon. But I've been waiting 20 years, so I know I shouldn't get my hopes up.

Ah, fair enough.

phydaux wrote:
That, and Big C seemed to do really well. I see a HUGE nerf coming to her, and that RIGHT quick.

If they wanted to nerf her, I wonder what they'd do.

- They could just raise her cost, but with her 2 guards she's already exceeding Land Raider costs. I think that would just lead people to take one guard instead of both.

- They could remove her aura, but it isn't exactly strong at the moment for anything other than Seraphim.

- They could stop her from handing out a free Act of Faith, but it would be a bit weird if a Living Saint was somehow incapable of inspiring faith (or no better at it than an Imagnifier).

- They could reduce her strength or attacks, but I imagine that will be something of a fine line. Her guards have very little offensive ability, so if you weaken her own offence too much it could cripple her entirely.

- They could reduce her durability and/or the durability of her guards. However, I don't think they can really knock more than 1 wound off her (having the same as a Canoness doesn't really seem right). And, given the aforementioned lack of offence on her guards you're really only bringing them for their durability - so if that gets reduced they'll probably have to reduce their points as well (otherwise I doubt people will bother taking them).

- They could stop her from bringing back a guard for free each turn (forcing her her use an Act of Faith for that). This could work, though again I don't know if you'd have to knock some points off the guard to keep them viable.

To be honest, I find myself wondering if it was a mistake to give her super-bodyguards in the first place. Especially ones that she can freely revive each turn. If I was going to nerf her, I'd definitely look at those and/or at her ability to resurrect one each turn without using an Act of Faith.

On a personal note, I find myself missing her 5th edition counterpart. I liked it best when she was cheap, could revive indefinitely but wasn't a power-house.


That said, I think they also need to look at the Canoness. Part of the reason Celestine is so valuable is that virtually all her abilities are unique to her. She:
- Can move 12".
- Has 7 wounds and a 2+ save.
- Can generate a free AoF each turn.
- Can revive once per game on full wounds.
- Buffs nearby SoB and IG units with an Aura.
- Has 6 attacks with a S7 sword.
- Has a Heavy Flamer.
- Brings revivable bodyguards which match her 2+/4+ save.

Now, obviously the Canoness won't (and shouldn't) bring all of those - especially with Miraculous Intervention being unique to Living Saints. However, is a Jump Pack for 12" movement really too much to ask? Likewise, can one of the most faithful units in the army really do nothing to help out Acts of Faith?

My point is, nerfing Celestine (if it happens at all) is only half the solution - the Canoness also needs to bring more to the table.

I know everybody wants it, but I just don't see them giving her the jump pack back. Or any other upgrade that requires physical representation on the model that isn't present on the metal canoness or any of the sister superior-ish models that can be fielded as the canoness in a pinch. 'Invisible' stuff like bionics and digital weapons are far more likely.

And I don't think the canoness needs to be Celestine Light. In fact I explicitly don't want that for her. Let the space marines have the tanky fighty HQs, and let the canoness- the nominal leader of your convent, be a bigger force multiplier with auras representing word and reputation driving your girls to greatness. Celestine is the Emperor's will made manifest and a miracle, the canoness should be great within the limits of what a human being can be.

Funny you should say that; at the moment, she's a space marine captain-lite, the only reason people usually get her is the same reason people get a barebones captain, the rerolling of 1s on to-hits.

Do you really think it's more likely GW will make her drastically different from this?

 Captain Joystick wrote:
I know everybody wants it, but I just don't see them giving her the jump pack back. Or any other upgrade that requires physical representation on the model that isn't present on the metal canoness or any of the sister superior-ish models that can be fielded as the canoness in a pinch. 'Invisible' stuff like bionics and digital weapons are far more likely.

If only GW had the capacity to make new models.

 Captain Joystick wrote:
Let the space marines have the tanky fighty HQs, and let the canoness- the nominal leader of your convent, be a bigger force multiplier with auras representing word and reputation driving your girls to greatness.

If this is in response to my post I really don't understand where you're coming from. Would giving the Cannoness the option of a Jump Pack make her Celestine lite? Would allowing her to hand out an extra Act of Faith on a 4+ (or even just use a free one on herself each turn) make her Celestine Lite?

 vipoid wrote:

Now, obviously the Canoness won't (and shouldn't) bring all of those - especially with Miraculous Intervention being unique to Living Saints. However, is a Jump Pack for 12" movement really too much to ask? Likewise, can one of the most faithful units in the army really do nothing to help out Acts of Faith?

My point is, nerfing Celestine (if it happens at all) is only half the solution - the Canoness also needs to bring more to the table.

Forgive me if this is a really dumb question (I haven't been around the hobby for over a decade), but is there any precedence for giving a unit wargear that isn't actually part of their physical model? To me, any major changes to how these units work (like adding a jetpack) would have to come with a corresponding model, right? Might that be largely why Sisters have been mostly ignored for so long? Can't really do one without the other, so to speak.

There had been since the beginning of 40k. But over the last few years, GW's been moving to remove any options not represented on an existing model. For ranges that have not been updated in decades, like Sisters and the Inquisition, it's served as a massive culling.

It still shows in the sisters range. The canoness only comes with a power sword, eviscerator, plasma pistol and inferno pistol. A fraction of her available wargear.

Also a big scroll and book that don't directly represent anything anymore.

Melissia wrote:Funny you should say that; at the moment, she's a space marine captain-lite, the only reason people usually get her is the same reason people get a barebones captain, the rerolling of 1s on to-hits.

Do you really think it's more likely GW will make her drastically different from this?

I don't know how likely it is, but it's what I would prefer; something that emphasizes the differences between the factions and helps assert the Sororitas' distinct identity.

vipoid wrote:
If only GW had the capacity to make new models.

Speaking strictly in terms of 'new book/errata/two-part white dwarf codex' incorporating the existing model range, of course.

If new models are in the cards then it's a whole different ball game.

...

...

Checkmate.

vipoid wrote:If this is in response to my post I really don't understand where you're coming from. Would giving the Cannoness the option of a Jump Pack make her Celestine lite? Would allowing her to hand out an extra Act of Faith on a 4+ (or even just use a free one on herself each turn) make her Celestine Lite?

Yes, by virtue of them being less effective iterations of Celestine's existing abilities.

Whereas if you gave her options that let her confer bonuses like the ones the priest gives, or an order-like mechanic you can have her be a more distinct but still effective HQ.

Lemondish wrote:

Forgive me if this is a really dumb question (I haven't been around the hobby for over a decade), but is there any precedence for giving a unit wargear that isn't actually part of their physical model? To me, any major changes to how these units work (like adding a jetpack) would have to come with a corresponding model, right? Might that be largely why Sisters have been mostly ignored for so long? Can't really do one without the other, so to speak.

It depends on the faction. Space Marines have units without models and wargear that isn't represented, yet those have yet to be removed as a result.

 Captain Joystick wrote:

Yes, by virtue of them being less effective iterations of Celestine's existing abilities.

Sorry but moving 12" is not Celestine's defining feature. And Acts of Faith are a core element of the entire army - not just her.

 Captain Joystick wrote:

Whereas if you gave her options that let her confer bonuses like the ones the priest gives, or an order-like mechanic you can have her be a more distinct but still effective HQ.

So why not let her provide an extra Act of Faith (maybe on a 3+)?

I disagree; if anything, I think it would incentivize using a canoness and give us reason to NOT take Celestine. Though at that point the Imagifier would be even more overcosted than it probably already is and would have to come down in points.

Also, given the leaks on the Marine Codex I could see the following Stratagem for us:

1CP: After one of your models with the Martyrdom trait is removed as a casualty, choose a friendly <Order> unit. It immediately performs an Act of Faith, even if it has already done so this turn.

It would need some type of wording so that it doesn't interrupt whatever the current activation is and, instead, is performed after that activation is completed. Then you'd give all of our Sororitas Characters except the Geminae with Celestine the Martyrdom trait.

Two things WRT Canoness Jump Packs:

1: Just adding a jump pack option [20 pts. sounds appropriate] would make her desirable. It means she can actually use that re-roll 1's aura buff. Otherwise, she just sort of serves to add 6" to an Exorcist/Retributor Squad's Deep Strike Perimeter.
2: Eleanor and Genevieve are Canonesses with Jump Packs.


WRT her distributing Acts of Faith:
Allowing her to distribute Acts of Faith and a jump pack [increase to 65-75 points, 85-95 w/ Jump Pack], would mean the Saint Celestine would be less of an auto-take, and would facilitate greater diversity in our army builds.



And I'd rather have Celestine-lite than a distinct HQ. I've always been of the mindset that a unit of which you can only have one should never be entirely unique, and should be an upgraded version of an existing unit. Otherwise, army strategies built around a concept the unique unit facilitates have no scaling for small or large games. Allowing a Canoness to co-opt Celetine's most important feature, namely being fast enough to actually stay with the army, would be ideal. In addition, allowing a Canoness to distribute Acts of Faith would facilitate foot armies, since if Celestine isn't moving and fighting in melee, she's not nearly worth 150 points, and if Celestine in on her own in melee out in front, she's not providing her faith buff and will die.

Also, we need our damn Blessed Weapons back.

Goddamn marines stealing them and calling them Relic Blades back in fifth, mutter mutter.

I'm more than fine with the Canoness not having a jump pack and being more of the leader type with aura's and re-rolls.

Seraphim Superia as an HQ with a rosarius and costing somewhere near the Imagifer would be fun as well. Give her an aura buff of a different flavor than the Canoness and I would be more than happy.

Double Doms in Repressors is bordering on not even playing nice. Might cost me a few friends, but who needs the Heretics anyways?

Its nice to see Celestine survived the faq without a nerf, but its better to see that some think she needs it. Jealous much?

 dracpanzer wrote:
Seraphim Superia as an HQ with a rosarius and costing somewhere near the Imagifer

... so as much as a canoness?

I mean I don't get why she can't be both a support character AND have a jump pack.

 dracpanzer wrote:
Its nice to see Celestine survived the faq without a nerf, but its better to see that some think she needs it. Jealous much?

Technically she got a massive nerf, with the clarification that she is a unique character, and can't give Acts of Faith to vehicles. But yes, I agree.

"And if you're playing against an army that doesn't advance and just shoots you off the board? Sometimes you need to take out the superheavy, giant battlesuit, etc. first before it blows up half your army. "

That's what Celestine and two units of Seraphim are for.

 Melissia wrote:

 dracpanzer wrote:
Seraphim Superia as an HQ with a rosarius and costing somewhere near the Imagifer

... so as much as a canoness?

I mean I don't get why she can't be both a support character AND have a jump pack.

35 or 40 points isn't bad assuming that as a Seraphim Superia she would already have the jump pack.

I don't see clarifying Celestine as unique like a nerf. It was clearly an error, and yes taking many of her would have been better than just one. It just wasn't ever supposed to happen. Acts of Faith working on vehicles was the same thing. GW rule writing and bad editing before a release requiring a FAQ immediately after a release isn't a nerf.

The thing is, with the Canoness, she always IS a support character. She'd just be a more useful one with a jump pack.

It'd take relics or blessed weapons to make her in to a beatstick.

 Melissia wrote:
The thing is, with the Canoness, she always IS a support character. She'd just be a more useful one with a jump pack.

It'd take relics or blessed weapons to make her in to a beatstick.

Mechanically, sure. I just don't see it as a need when I can throw all my Seraphim in an outrider detachment with Saint auto include. It might be nicer to our opponents, but if it wasn't cheap to field the Canoness with it, I would never bother anyways. A Palatine or Seraphim Superior might help cut the HQ cost down for fielding multiple detachments, which would be good. But when forced to take a Canoness I generally just give her a stormbolter and chainsword. Sometimes with stormbolter Celestians to make her a bit tankier and a way to keep my opponent off my Retributors.

Fluff wise, Seraphim being the pretty girl club pretty much excludes them from descending to the ranks of the less beautiful and taking up the duties of higher command doesn't it........