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col_impact wrote:
The name of the weapon is "massive scything talons"

"This weapon" refers to "massive scything talons" in the plural.

We are dealing with the case of a singular weapon profile representing however many scything talons on the model.

You can't split your attacks with this weapon since its only one weapon RAW no matter how many pairs are represented on the model.

The rule for the weapon checks how many physical pairs you have and grants an extra attack to the massive scything talons weapons if the models is equipped with more than one pair.

This is dumb. You should feel bad.

 Lance845 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
The name of the weapon is "massive scything talons"

"This weapon" refers to "massive scything talons" in the plural.

We are dealing with the case of a singular weapon profile representing however many scything talons on the model.

You can't split your attacks with this weapon since its only one weapon RAW no matter how many pairs are represented on the model.

The rule for the weapon checks how many physical pairs you have and grants an extra attack to the massive scything talons weapons if the models is equipped with more than one pair.

This is dumb. You should feel bad.

Yeah, I have no idea what he is trying to say.

 Lance845 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
The name of the weapon is "massive scything talons"

"This weapon" refers to "massive scything talons" in the plural.

We are dealing with the case of a singular weapon profile representing however many scything talons on the model.

You can't split your attacks with this weapon since its only one weapon RAW no matter how many pairs are represented on the model.

The rule for the weapon checks how many physical pairs you have and grants an extra attack to the massive scything talons weapons if the models is equipped with more than one pair.

This is dumb. You should feel bad.

Dumb or not, it's the RAW.

Instead of calling it dumb, why don't you disprove my argument?

The profile is for massive scything talons (plural). Just look at the index.

All of the talons are represented by one weapon profile.

Attacking with any number of massive scything talons is attacking with a single weapon profile so you can't split the attacks.

The rule checks how many pairs are on the model and grants +1A if there is more than one pair.

col_impact wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
The name of the weapon is "massive scything talons"

"This weapon" refers to "massive scything talons" in the plural.

We are dealing with the case of a singular weapon profile representing however many scything talons on the model.

You can't split your attacks with this weapon since its only one weapon RAW no matter how many pairs are represented on the model.

The rule for the weapon checks how many physical pairs you have and grants an extra attack to the massive scything talons weapons if the models is equipped with more than one pair.

This is dumb. You should feel bad.

Dumb or not, it's the RAW.

Instead of calling it dumb, why don't you disprove my argument?

The profile is for massive scything talons (plural).

All of the talons are represented by one weapon profile.

Attacking with any number of massive scything talons is attacking with a single weapon profile so you can't split the attacks.

The rule checks how many pairs are on the model and grants +1A for each pair on the model.

Because the model comes equiped with 2 or 3 pairs of massive scything talons. there fore, 2 or 3 profiles. "Massive Scything Talons" (plural) is refrenceing the fact that it is a pair. If there was only on proile you would not have multiple and the bonus for having multiple would be impossible.

I.E. It's dumb and you should feel bad.

 Lance845 wrote:
[

Because the model comes equiped with 2 or 3 pairs of massive scything talons. there fore, 2 or 3 profiles. "Massive Scything Talons" (plural) is refrenceing the fact that it is a pair. If there was only on proile you would not have multiple and the bonus for having multiple would be impossible.

I.E. It's dumb and you should feel bad.

The profile does not say 'pair of massive scything talons'. The profile says 'massive scything talons'.

THAT part is true. But then RAW a trygon doesn't have 3 massive scything talons. It has 6. That the road you want to go down?

Basically it is semantics on the translation of the English Language.. which is one of the worlds least defined languages

 Lance845 wrote:
THAT part is true. But then RAW a trygon doesn't have 3 massive scything talons. It has 6. That the road you want to go down?

6 Massive Scything talons is still using the same one weapon profile.

However many massive scything talons you have its all a single weapon profile.

The rule checks for how many pairs there are and grants +1A if there is more than one pair.

The max that a model can receive in bonus attacks is +1.

It's super straightforward.

It's not the road I want to go down, it's the road the rules are telling me to do down.

col_impact wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
THAT part is true. But then RAW a trygon doesn't have 3 massive scything talons. It has 6. That the road you want to go down?

6 Massive Scything talons is still using the same one weapon profile.

The rule checks for how many pairs there are and grants +1A if there is more than one pair.

The max that a model can receive in bonus attacks is +1.

It's super straightforward.

In no world would that combine the profiles into a single profile. Since not only is there zero precedence for doing so and no rule that allows it to happen. A sporescyst is equiped with 5 deathspitters. 5 individual profiles for deathspitters. A trygon is equiped with 3 pairs of massive scything talons. 6 individual profiles for massive scything talons.

 Lance845 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
THAT part is true. But then RAW a trygon doesn't have 3 massive scything talons. It has 6. That the road you want to go down?

6 Massive Scything talons is still using the same one weapon profile.

The rule checks for how many pairs there are and grants +1A if there is more than one pair.

The max that a model can receive in bonus attacks is +1.

It's super straightforward.

In no world would that combine the profiles into a single profile. Since not only is there zero precedence for doing so and no rule that allows it to happen. A sporescyst is equiped with 5 deathspitters. 5 individual profiles for deathspitters. A trygon is equiped with 3 pairs of massive scything talons. 6 individual profiles for massive scything talons.

In this world the profile says 'massive scything talons'. It does not say 'massive scything talon' or 'a pair of massive scything talons'.

You use the one profile and adjust the number of attacks per the rules associated with the weapon profile if there is more than one pair.

col_impact wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
THAT part is true. But then RAW a trygon doesn't have 3 massive scything talons. It has 6. That the road you want to go down?

6 Massive Scything talons is still using the same one weapon profile.

The rule checks for how many pairs there are and grants +1A if there is more than one pair.

The max that a model can receive in bonus attacks is +1.

It's super straightforward.

In no world would that combine the profiles into a single profile. Since not only is there zero precedence for doing so and no rule that allows it to happen. A sporescyst is equiped with 5 deathspitters. 5 individual profiles for deathspitters. A trygon is equiped with 3 pairs of massive scything talons. 6 individual profiles for massive scything talons.

In this world the profile says 'massive scything talons'. It does not say 'massive scything talon' or 'a pair of massive scything talons'.

You use the one profile and adjust the number of attacks per the rules associated with the weapon profile if there is more than one pair.

It is a permission based rule set. Please provide a reference to a rule that allows you to merge multiple weapons into a single profile.

Massive Scything Talons is the name of one weapon. A pair of massive scything talons is 2 weapon profiles. 3 pairs of massive scything talons is 6 weapon profiles.

So a Leman Russ with 2 Las Cannons only gets to shoot them as if they had one of them?
They are listed as plural because each weapon is a pair, much like gauntlets. Having multiple weapons with the same name and rules stack as per RAW, unless your telling me a tank with a set of two heavy flamers only gets 1d6 shots.

 Lance845 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
THAT part is true. But then RAW a trygon doesn't have 3 massive scything talons. It has 6. That the road you want to go down?

6 Massive Scything talons is still using the same one weapon profile.

The rule checks for how many pairs there are and grants +1A if there is more than one pair.

The max that a model can receive in bonus attacks is +1.

It's super straightforward.

In no world would that combine the profiles into a single profile. Since not only is there zero precedence for doing so and no rule that allows it to happen. A sporescyst is equiped with 5 deathspitters. 5 individual profiles for deathspitters. A trygon is equiped with 3 pairs of massive scything talons. 6 individual profiles for massive scything talons.

In this world the profile says 'massive scything talons'. It does not say 'massive scything talon' or 'a pair of massive scything talons'.

You use the one profile and adjust the number of attacks per the rules associated with the weapon profile if there is more than one pair.

It is a permission based rule set. Please provide a reference to a rule that allows you to merge multiple weapons into a single profile.

Massive Scything Talons is the name of one weapon. A pair of massive scything talons is 2 weapon profiles. 3 pairs of massive scything talons is 6 weapon profiles.

I am not merging any profiles. The profile is for 'monstrous scything talons' which is plural.

When you attack with 'monstrous scything talons' you attack with that one weapon profile. You follow the rule on the weapon profile to determine the number of bonus attacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
So a Leman Russ with 2 Las Cannons only gets to shoot them as if they had one of them?
They are listed as plural because each weapon is a pair, much like gauntlets. Having multiple weapons with the same name and rules stack as per RAW, unless your telling me a tank with a set of two heavy flamers only gets 1d6 shots.

The profile says 'lascannon' so if you have two lascannons you indeed have 2 separate weapons each with their own profile.

Again. MST is a single profile for a single weapon. having a pair means 2 profiles. 3 pairs is 6. You could name a profile anything. it doesn't matter what it is called.

 Lance845 wrote:
Again. MST is a single profile for a single weapon. having a pair means 2 profiles. 3 pairs is 6. You could name a profile anything. it doesn't matter what it is called.

However many talons you have it's all using the same single weapon profile and attacks as a single weapon.

col_impact wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Again. MST is a single profile for a single weapon. having a pair means 2 profiles. 3 pairs is 6. You could name a profile anything. it doesn't matter what it is called.

However many talons you have it's all using the same single weapon profile and attacks as a single weapon.

Again, provide rules reference or precedent. That never happens. Which is why what you are saying is dumb.

Coming from the outside, without reading much of the thread, here is my takeaway:

The Trygon states that it has three pairs of Massive Scything Talons. The weapon profile is a singular object, no matter what case (singular or plural) the title is. That is why the profile says "you can reroll hits of 1 when attacking with this weapon." Although it is a plural, it is considered a single weapon.

You choose the "Massive Scything Talons" weapon to fight with, just like you choose the "Chainsword" or "Staff of Light" to fight with. It then goes on to say, "If this model has more than one pair of massive scything talons" (which it does), it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon. Meaning, after you've chosen the "Massive Scything Talons" weapon to fight with, you check to see how many pairs you have. Do you have more than 1 pair? Okay, you get +1 attack.


This is also the reason that the weapon on the points cost sheet is 60 points, no matter how many pairs you have. If you received more or less bonuses for having more or less pairs, wouldn't they cost more or less?

Since you are fighting with a singular weapon (even though it is spelled in the plural case), you're still attacking with a "weapon" and, as such, only get the benefits from the "weapon" once.

The point that needs to be made clear is that the Massive Scything Talons rule says that it gets +1 Attack each time it fights. Not each time it attacks. When chosen to Fight in the Fight phase, you check to see if the creature has more than 1 pair of Massive Scything Talons. If it does, it gets +1 attack this fight. So, instead of having 6 attacks with the "Massive Scything Talons" weapon, you have 7.

Finally, you can split those 7 attacks anyway you like. There is no restriction on splitting attacks, no matter how many weapons you have.

col_impact wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
The name of the weapon is "massive scything talons"

"This weapon" refers to "massive scything talons" in the plural.

We are dealing with the case of a singular weapon profile representing however many scything talons on the model.

You can't split your attacks with this weapon since its only one weapon RAW no matter how many pairs are represented on the model.

The rule for the weapon checks how many physical pairs you have and grants an extra attack to the massive scything talons weapons if the models is equipped with more than one pair.

This is dumb. You should feel bad.

Dumb or not, it's the RAW.

Instead of calling it dumb, why don't you disprove my argument?

The profile is for massive scything talons (plural). Just look at the index.

All of the talons are represented by one weapon profile.

Attacking with any number of massive scything talons is attacking with a single weapon profile so you can't split the attacks.

The rule checks how many pairs are on the model and grants +1A if there is more than one pair.

That is not what the rule says. But your going to repeat yourself ad nauseum until the thread is locked.

 puma713 wrote:
Coming from the outside, without reading much of the thread, here is my takeaway:

The Trygon states that it has three pairs of Massive Scything Talons. The weapon profile is a singular object, no matter what case (singular or plural) the title is. That is why the profile says "you can reroll hits of 1 when attacking with this weapon." Although it is a plural, it is considered a single weapon.

You choose the "Massive Scything Talons" weapon to fight with, just like you choose the "Chainsword" or "Staff of Light" to fight with. It then goes on to say, "If this model has more than one pair of massive scything talons" (which it does), it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon. Meaning, after you've chosen the "Massive Scything Talons" weapon to fight with, you check to see how many pairs you have. Do you have more than 1 pair? Okay, you get +1 attack.


This is also the reason that the weapon on the points cost sheet is 60 points, no matter how many pairs you have. If you received more or less bonuses for having more or less pairs, wouldn't they cost more or less?

Since you are fighting with a singular weapon (even though it is spelled in the plural case), you're still attacking with a "weapon" and, as such, only get the benefits from the "weapon" once.

The point that needs to be made clear is that the Massive Scything Talons rule says that it gets +1 Attack each time it fights. Not each time it attacks. When chosen to Fight in the Fight phase, you check to see if the creature has more than 1 pair of Massive Scything Talons. If it does, it gets +1 attack this fight. So, instead of having 6 attacks with the "Massive Scything Talons" weapon, you have 7.

Finally, you can split those 7 attacks anyway you like. There is no restriction on splitting attacks, no matter how many weapons you have.

You are correct except for the bit on splitting attacks. There are restrictions on splitting attacks. You need to have more than one melee weapon in order to split attacks. 'Massive Scything Talons' is one weapon.

Col has joined the thread time to lock it =D

col_impact wrote:


You are correct except for the bit on splitting attacks. There are restrictions on splitting attacks. You need to have more than one melee weapon in order to split attacks. 'Massive Scything Talons' is one weapon.

Wrong. You're conflating splitting attacks and splitting attacks between multiple weapons. The rule on page 182 says "If a model can make more than one close combat attack (see right), it can split them between eligible targets as you like."

The "see right" part, is referencing Number of Attacks, where it outlines what it means to have more than one attack.

The next part is where you're getting confused. It is saying that if you have more than one weapon, you can split attacks between the weapons as you wish. The first line above on page 182 gives you permission to split your attacks no matter how many weapons you have.

 puma713 wrote:
Coming from the outside, without reading much of the thread, here is my takeaway:

The Trygon states that it has three pairs of Massive Scything Talons. The weapon profile is a singular object, no matter what case (singular or plural) the title is. That is why the profile says "you can reroll hits of 1 when attacking with this weapon." Although it is a plural, it is considered a single weapon.

You choose the "Massive Scything Talons" weapon to fight with, just like you choose the "Chainsword" or "Staff of Light" to fight with. It then goes on to say, "If this model has more than one pair of massive scything talons" (which it does), it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon. Meaning, after you've chosen the "Massive Scything Talons" weapon to fight with, you check to see how many pairs you have. Do you have more than 1 pair? Okay, you get +1 attack.


This is also the reason that the weapon on the points cost sheet is 60 points, no matter how many pairs you have. If you received more or less bonuses for having more or less pairs, wouldn't they cost more or less?

Since you are fighting with a singular weapon (even though it is spelled in the plural case), you're still attacking with a "weapon" and, as such, only get the benefits from the "weapon" once.

The point that needs to be made clear is that the Massive Scything Talons rule says that it gets +1 Attack each time it fights. Not each time it attacks. When chosen to Fight in the Fight phase, you check to see if the creature has more than 1 pair of Massive Scything Talons. If it does, it gets +1 attack this fight. So, instead of having 6 attacks with the "Massive Scything Talons" weapon, you have 7.

Finally, you can split those 7 attacks anyway you like. There is no restriction on splitting attacks, no matter how many weapons you have.

Th rule does not say you need o fight WITH the ScyTal to get the +1 attack. It says you get +1 attack with this weapon each time it fights. Not each time it fights with this weapon.

You could use a tail or anything else for all of your basic profile attacks. You are now fighting. Because you are fighting you get +1 attack that has to be made WITH THAT WEAPON. If you have 3 weapons with the same rule than each weapon gives you an extra attack.

 Lance845 wrote:


Th rule does not say you need o fight WITH the ScyTal to get the +1 attack. It says you get +1 attack with this weapon each time it fights. Not each time it fights with this weapon.

That is just blatantly wrong. The profile says "If the bearer has more than one pair of Massive Scything Talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon each time it fights." Weapons don't fight. Models do.

 Lance845 wrote:
You could use a tail or anything else for all of your basic profile attacks.

Again wrong. You can only use the tail for one of your attacks. It says so plainly in the tail weapons' profiles. There are no other "basic profile attacks". If you have a melee weapon, that is what you fight with.

 Lance845 wrote:
You are now fighting. Because you are fighting you get +1 attack that has to be made WITH THAT WEAPON. If you have 3 weapons with the same rule than each weapon gives you an extra attack.

This is just not true. I know you'd like it to work that way, but it does not. What gives you permission to get +1 attack? It is a rule that tells you to check to see if you have multiple pairs. That is the only qualifying statement to get +1 attack. You don't check 3 times for the same qualifier. I understand where you're coming from. You're saying, since I have 3 pairs of talons, I get to check 3 times for an extra attack. But that's simply not the case. col_impact is right in this case. "Massive Scything Talons" is a single weapon with a special rule that says if you have more than 1 pair, you get +1 attack. That is RAW. It is why every passage that references "Massive Scything Talons" does so in the singular case, "weapon".

I am a Tyranids player too, if it matters.

 puma713 wrote:

col_impact wrote:


You are correct except for the bit on splitting attacks. There are restrictions on splitting attacks. You need to have more than one melee weapon in order to split attacks. 'Massive Scything Talons' is one weapon.

Wrong. You're conflating splitting attacks and splitting attacks between multiple weapons. The rule on page 182 says "If a model can make more than one close combat attack (see right), it can split them between eligible targets as you like."

The "see right" part, is referencing Number of Attacks, where it outlines what it means to have more than one attack.

The next part is where you're getting confused. It is saying that if you have more than one weapon, you can split attacks between the weapons as you wish. The first line above on page 182 gives you permission to split your attacks no matter how many weapons you have.

No. You are getting confused which we can you see because you misquoted the rule (see the red highlight below).

Here is the quote.

"If a model can make more than one close combat attack (see right), it can split them between eligible target units as you wish."

Here is the other quote.

"If a model has more than one melee weapon, choose which it will use before rolling the dice. If a model has more than one melee weapon and can make several close combat attacks, it can split its attacks between these weapons however you wish – declare how you will divide the attacks before any dice are rolled."

The first quote is referring to splitting attacks between different target units. The second quote is splitting attacks between weapons. If you are attacking a single unit with 'massive scything talons' you will not be able to split the attacks because 'massive scything talons' is a single weapon.

This is just a minor correction.

Massive Scything Talons is a single weapon. A Trygon Prime has three of them. The fact they are purchased in one step is a red herring with no bearing on their function.

The model has no other melee options to swap them out for and they could (and should have it seems) been included in their base cost.

col_impact wrote:

The first quote is referring to splitting attacks between different target units. The second quote is splitting attacks between weapons. If you are attacking a single unit with 'massive scything talons' you will not be able to split the attacks because 'massive scything talons' is a single weapon.

This is just a minor correction.

Yeah, I was referring to splitting attacks between two different units. That's the only option to split attacks. Of course I wasn't referring splitting attacks to a single unit. That makes no sense. You don't split single weapon's attacks. We are in agreement here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eldarain wrote:
Massive Scything Talons is a single weapon. A Trygon Prime has three of them. The fact they are purchased in one step is a red herring with no bearing on their function.

I disagree. If I get +2 attacks from wargear or I get +3 attacks (or more) from wargear, I would expect the wargear to cost a bit different from one version to the next, wouldn't you? A cannon that fires 3 shots is worth more than one that fires 2, no? The language of the wargear is what is important. They make no distinction between two pairs, or more because having more than two pair doesn't matter. To the rules, it doesn't matter if the Trygon has 2 pair or 50 pairs. It still gets +1 attack because you only check for the multiple pairs once. And you only choose Massive Scything Talons to fight with. You don't choose 50 Massive Scything Talons to fight with. You choose the weapon, "Massive Scything Talons", and then you check to see how many pairs you have to activate the weapon's special rules.

 Eldarain wrote:
The model has no other melee options to swap them out for and they could (and should have it seems) been included in their base cost.

Why? No other model outside of special characters have their weapons included in their base costs.

 puma713 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:


Th rule does not say you need o fight WITH the ScyTal to get the +1 attack. It says you get +1 attack with this weapon each time it fights. Not each time it fights with this weapon.

That is just blatantly wrong. The profile says "If the bearer has more than one pair of Massive Scything Talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon each time it fights." Weapons don't fight. Models do.

 Lance845 wrote:
You could use a tail or anything else for all of your basic profile attacks.

Again wrong. You can only use the tail for one of your attacks. It says so plainly in the tail weapons' profiles. There are no other "basic profile attacks". If you have a melee weapon, that is what you fight with.

 Lance845 wrote:
You are now fighting. Because you are fighting you get +1 attack that has to be made WITH THAT WEAPON. If you have 3 weapons with the same rule than each weapon gives you an extra attack.

This is just not true. I know you'd like it to work that way, but it does not. What gives you permission to get +1 attack? It is a rule that tells you to check to see if you have multiple pairs. That is the only qualifying statement to get +1 attack. You don't check 3 times for the same qualifier. I understand where you're coming from. You're saying, since I have 3 pairs of talons, I get to check 3 times for an extra attack. But that's simply not the case. col_impact is right in this case. "Massive Scything Talons" is a single weapon with a special rule that says if you have more than 1 pair, you get +1 attack. That is RAW. It is why every passage that references "Massive Scything Talons" does so in the singular case, "weapon".

I am a Tyranids player too, if it matters.

First. not all tail weapons use one and only 1 attack.

Second, you get 1 extra attack WITH THIS WEAPON -1 EXTRA ATTACK THAT MUST BE MADE WITH THIS WEAPON- each time it fights. As you say, models fight not weapons. Each time the model fights it gets 1 extra attack that must be made with that weapon. Not a +1 to the a characteristic that can be used any way it sees fit. +1 attack that has to use the Scy Tal.

3rd, there is a rule that has 2 qualifiers and 1 efffect

Qualifier 1 have more than 1 pair of scy tal. Qualifier 2, the model has to fight.Effect +1 attack that must be made with that weapon.

If you have 2 weapons and they both have the same rule they meet requirements 1 and 2 when the model fights and each weapon profile triggers the effect.

A repeat of an earlier post.

Look at each weapon I.e. each pair. Lets call them pair a b and c

First pair a: qualifier - if you have more than one pair... Has 3, see b and c. Check. Effect: than +1a with this weapon. I.e. +1a that must be made with pair a.

Next pair b: qualifier - if you have more than one pair... Has 3, see a and c. Check. Effect: than +1a with this weapon. I.e. +1a that must be made with pair b.

Last pair c: qualifier - if you have more than one pair... Has 3, see b and a. Check. Effect: than +1a with this weapon. I.e. +1a that must be made with pair c.

 Lance845 wrote:
*snip*

I am not going to go around and around with you like col_impact will. I do not agree with you and that's okay. It's clear that neither camp is going to change their minds. This is the point that we agree to disagree and wait on a FAQ, which will be coming out soon enough. Until then, I will be playing my Trygon Primes with +1 attack, for a total of 7 attacks.

col_impact wrote:
The first quote is referring to splitting attacks between different target units. The second quote is splitting attacks between weapons. If you are attacking a single unit with 'massive scything talons' you will not be able to split the attacks because 'massive scything talons' is a single weapon.

Except the Trygon has 3 pairs of them.

I do believe that is the other thing with Trygons and this question.. if it is +3 that is a stupid amount of attacks