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col_impact wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
That is not an answer to the question I asked. [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]

I answered the question. The 'massive scything talons' profile is a rule that looks for additional 'pairs of massive scything talons' beyond the first. The weapon profile will grant +1A if it finds additional pairs. That changes how the weapon profile functions in the game. That's the RAW.

I suggest you focus on finding rules support for your argument rather than simply making personal attacks.

My argument obviously has you rattled.

There is nothing in there that defines "pair" or "pairs" as a mechanical entitiy as opposed to a numerical value. That same sentence, much more reasonably says "the model gets +1 attacks if it is equipped with 4 or more profiles called massive scything talons". With no raw justification what-so-ever you are giving the word "pair" the ability to condense and modify a profile in a way nothing else in the game can do.

Where is the rule that grants "pair/s" this functionality?

orknado wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:


There is nothing in there that defines "pair" or "pairs" as a mechanical entitiy as opposed to a numerical value. That same sentence, much more reasonably says "the model gets +1 attacks if it is equipped with 4 or more profiles called massive scything talons". With no raw justification what-so-ever you are giving the word "pair" the ability to condense and modify a profile in a way nothing else in the game can do.

Where is the rule that grants "pair/s" this functionality?

Lance845, that is not correct. "Pairs" is an operative term in the 'massive scything talons' weapon profile.

If the datasheet did not identify the purchase as 'pairs of massive scything talons' explicitly then the rule would not work.

Keep in mind that 'pair' means far more than '2'.

The two things must be recognized as going together in a set.

The definition of pair: "a set of two things used together or regarded as a unit".

The fact that you purchase them together and they function together to grant +1A to the 'massive scything talons' weapon profile means they go together in a set and are indeed a 'pair'.


All in all I am not impressed with your argument.

You are asking people to ignore the use of the plural in the 'massive scything talons' weapon profile and you are asking people to translate 'pair' as just '2' when that is not how the weapon profile reads.

Can we stick with discussing the rules as they are actually written?

Your wrong. I'm not asking people to ignore that it is plural baselessly. Many profiles and dataslates in 40k are the same way. I have quoted presedence many times.

2. I agree, the scytal profile quantifies an effect triggered by the existance of more than one pair of scytal. Great. What col_impact suggests is that no matter how many pieces of wargear the dataslate tells you you have it is only represented as a single profile. There is no rule that says you do this. And the dataslate for nids do not tell you to do this. And the wargear does not tell you to do this. And the points tables are not themselves rules relevant to how a model behaves because they are not even used in the majority of the way the game can be played. And the dataslates we are all referencing are not written with points costs in mind. They are written for power levels.

When the Tryon dataslate tells you you have 3 pairs of scytal. At minimum you have 3 separate pieces of wargear. Since, as col pointed out, the weapon profile is not called "pair of", RAW, it has 6. Because that is how English works.

Nowhere does it say that a model equipped with the weapon profile for any version of scytal can gain some hidden feature for a quantity of pairs of them. And that they are represented as a single profile. That's nonsense.

So 10 pages later. Unclear. Needs a FAQ. Play it how your heart desires until then. I don't think we're saying anything new here, and obviously both sides have established their positions fully

Hi col_impact, any chance you could answer my question about your argument? I might agree with you, or might not, but I want to be clear what you are arguing. Did my summary capture it or am I misunderstanding your position?

col_impact wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
Obviously, at least 99% of the people disagree with you.

That isn't an argument. The popularity of the RAW has nothing to do with it's veracity.

You are right here that the above is a fallacy (Argumentum ad Populum) and is not an argument. I would take it more as an expression of frustration than an attempt to persuade.

col_impact wrote:
You have to prove my RAW argument wrong.

Whilst you pointed out one fallacy you have fallen prey to another yourself, sadly. This is the Argument from Ignorance fallacy. Your argument does not stand unless someone proves it wrong, it has to stand on its own merits, even if no one has proposed an alternative.

It is quite possible that people do not agree that your argument is correct, whether or not they have a better option. I'm still trying to assess it, personally and so don't have a position on whether it is correct or not.

col_impact wrote:

 Deathklaat wrote:
of course he avoids the obvious answer because it would prove that he is wrong and he is TFG. Trump logic at it's finest. The facts are CLEARLY laid in front of you but suddenly they don't exist or apply. FAKE RULES!

The rule book clearly talks about attacking with MULTIPLE weapons if something has then attacks for it. The datasheet tells us that the trygon has 3 pairs of talons. By REAL WORLD MATH that is 6. So now we look at the profile for those SIX weapons and we see the scything talon rule and we use that, but it is plural because there is NO OPTION to take anything LESS than a PAIR of scything talons.

The number of weapons a Wraith has is not related. The trygon profile clearly defines the number of weapons. If you cannot put together that 3 times 2 is 6 then maybe you should play a game that doesn't use words or numbers like Hide and Seek or Rock, Scissors, Paper.

col_impact wrote:

That isn't an argument. You have to prove my RAW argument wrong. The popularity of the RAW has nothing to do with it's veracity.

Flat Earth logic right there.

You have six objects referred to as 'shoe'. Which proves my argument.

So you can't have 6 shoes, or 3 pairs of shoes? You still have multiple shoes.

col_impact wrote:
There is no profile for 'massive scything talon' (ie 'shoe'). There is no profile for 'pair of massive scything talons' (ie 'pair of shoes'). There is only a profile for 'massive scything talons' (ie 'shoes'). So when you attack with 'this weapon' you are attacking with your 'massive scything talons' (ie you attack with your shoes - analogy breaks there, that's why we don't use real word example per the rules of the forum - please follow the rules of YMDC)

The weapon profile we have is 'massive scything talons' which is a single weapon profile for however many massive scything talons a model has.

Irrelevant. When purchasing scything you are told you can purchase 2 additional pairs of scything talons, indicating that you have multiple weapons here, for a total of 3 scything talons. You can by RAW split your attacks, and by RAW use a different weapon with different attacks. Therefore, you can split your attacks amongst the three pairs of weapons, each using the profile "massive scything talons". And, as you have more than one pair of scything talons, each different weapon generates +1 A for a total of +3 A for the attacks split between the different pairs. If you attacked with only one pair, you would get only +1 attack since that weapon's only generating +1 A. In either case it doesn't matter how many talons are in each attack (for the latter part with attacking with only one weapon, it could be with all 6 talons), what matters is that by RAW you can split the attacks and use a different pair of scything talons for each attack of the first three, to get the +1 A for attacking with each weapon. If you are not letting the model attack with the different pairs of weapons with different attacks you are not playing by RAW.

You have been unable to show a profile named 'pair of massive scything talons' or a profile named 'massive scything talon' so 'this weapon' that the Trygon attacks with is 'massive scything talons'.

Drager wrote:
Hi col_impact, any chance you could answer my question about your argument? I might agree with you, or might not, but I want to be clear what you are arguing. Did my summary capture it or am I misunderstanding your position?

col_impact wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
Obviously, at least 99% of the people disagree with you.

That isn't an argument. The popularity of the RAW has nothing to do with it's veracity.

You are right here that the above is a fallacy (Argumentum ad Populum) and is not an argument. I would take it more as an expression of frustration than an attempt to persuade.

col_impact wrote:
You have to prove my RAW argument wrong.

Whilst you pointed out one fallacy you have fallen prey to another yourself, sadly. This is the Argument from Ignorance fallacy. Your argument does not stand unless someone proves it wrong, it has to stand on its own merits, even if no one has proposed an alternative.

It is quite possible that people do not agree that your argument is correct, whether or not they have a better option. I'm still trying to assess it, personally and so don't have a position on whether it is correct or not.

Thank you for your interest in this thread.

My argument has been presented with full RAW support and stands on its own merits.

The heart of this debate is the answer to the question 'what counts as a weapon'?

My argument is that the rules literally tell us that answer. The weapon profile is for 'massive scything talons' and refers to itself as 'this weapon'. Therefore, the rules recognize that a plural number of 'massive scything talons' is a single weapon profile.

Lance845 has tried to argue that the use of the plural is a mistake, but that is obviously an argument against the rules as they are written on the page. The rule writers chose to identify a plural number of 'massive scything talons' as a single weapon and we must follow that rule. We must accept the rules as they are written.

Right off the bat we know that any argument that a single 'massive scything talon' is a weapon is false. If a single 'massive scything talon' were a weapon then the weapon profile would be for a 'massive scything talon'. It isn't. The rules tell us that a plural number of massive scything talons is a single weapon instead.

So the argument that a single massive scything talon is a weapon is directly disproven by the rules as they are written.

The other argument, that a 'pair of massive scything talons' is a weapon fails to support itself with rules. A 'pair of massive scything talons' is recognized by the rules as a purchasing entity and as an entity that affects the +1 A rule in the 'massive scything talons' profile, but the rules do not recognize a 'pair of massive scything talons as a weapon profile. If a 'pair of massive scything talons' were to be recognized as a single weapon then a weapon profile would be provided for 'pair of massive scything talons'. No such weapon profile is provided so I am unable to attack with a 'pair of massive scything talons' as a single weapon.

So the argument that a 'pair of massive scything talons' is a single weapon has no justification in the rules as they are written.

The rules only allow me to choose 'massive scything talons' in the plural as a weapon to attack with. The rules do not allow me to choose a single 'massive scything talon' as a weapon nor do they allow me to choose a 'pair of massive scything talons' as a weapon. Neither the single talon nor the pair of talons have weapon profiles.

I can only choose the profile that I am provided with by the rules. I am not allowed to make up profiles. A Trygon is only allowed to attack with a single weapon that represents all of the 'massive scything talons' he is equipped with. A Trygon has no other profiles for his 'massive scything talons' with which to attack. There is no profile for a single 'talon' nor for a 'pair of talons' so the trygon can only attack with his 'massive scything talons' as a single weapon.

As you can see, my argument is directly proven by the RAW.

Got to give you credit. Your obstinacy is amazing, if nothing else.

'A Trygon is a single model armed with... three pairs of massive scything talons.'

 IJW wrote:
'A Trygon is a single model armed with... three pairs of massive scything talons.'

Not at issue.

The issue is where do you see a weapon profile for 'pair of massive scything talons'? You cannot attack with a 'pair of massive scything talons' unless you have a profile for it.

I see a profile for 'massive scything talons'. The Trygon has permission to attack with 'massive scything talons' as a single weapon but has no other permission.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Phazael wrote:
Got to give you credit. Your obstinacy is amazing, if nothing else.

Truth is obstinate.

Back to the best to ignore policy for me. Il be giving my models +1 attack per piece of wargear. I believe that means 3 for Tryon. Raw its 6. But that's because gw can't write rules for gak. It seems clear that a Tryon is equipped with 3 pieces of wargear since 3 is the number on the dataslate.

 Lance845 wrote:
Back to the best to ignore policy for me. Il be giving my models +1 attack per piece of wargear. I believe that means 3 for Tryon. Raw its 6. But that's because gw can't write rules for gak. It seems clear that a Tryon is equipped with 3 pieces of wargear since 3 is the number on the dataslate.

RAW there is no profile for 'massive scything talon' nor is there a profile for 'pair of massive scything talons' so you have no justification for attacking with an individual scything talon or a pair of scything talons.

Instead of claiming that gw can't write rules why don't you instead simply follow the rules that are provided. They give the Trygon +1 A.

You putting me on ignore does not prove your argument. In fact, it makes your argument look indefensible. If I were you I would prove my argument. That's how it works in YMDC. But suit yourself.

col_impact wrote:

Drager wrote:
Hi col_impact, any chance you could answer my question about your argument? I might agree with you, or might not, but I want to be clear what you are arguing. Did my summary capture it or am I misunderstanding your position?

col_impact wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
Obviously, at least 99% of the people disagree with you.

That isn't an argument. The popularity of the RAW has nothing to do with it's veracity.

You are right here that the above is a fallacy (Argumentum ad Populum) and is not an argument. I would take it more as an expression of frustration than an attempt to persuade.

col_impact wrote:
You have to prove my RAW argument wrong.

Whilst you pointed out one fallacy you have fallen prey to another yourself, sadly. This is the Argument from Ignorance fallacy. Your argument does not stand unless someone proves it wrong, it has to stand on its own merits, even if no one has proposed an alternative.

It is quite possible that people do not agree that your argument is correct, whether or not they have a better option. I'm still trying to assess it, personally and so don't have a position on whether it is correct or not.

Thank you for your interest in this thread.

My argument has been presented with full RAW support and stands on its own merits.

My argument also has been presented with full RAW support and has explained why your argument is irrelevant.

col_impact wrote:
Right off the bat we know that any argument that a single 'massive scything talon' is a weapon is false. If a single 'massive scything talon' were a weapon then the weapon profile would be for a 'massive scything talon'. It isn't. The rules tell us that a plural number of massive scything talons is a single weapon instead.

So the argument that a single massive scything talon is a weapon is directly disproven by the rules as they are written.

The other argument, that a 'pair of massive scything talons' is a weapon fails to support itself with rules. A 'pair of massive scything talons' is recognized by the rules as a purchasing entity and as an entity that affects the +1 A rule in the 'massive scything talons' profile, but the rules do not recognize a 'pair of massive scything talons as a weapon profile. If a 'pair of massive scything talons' were to be recognized as a single weapon then a weapon profile would be provided for 'pair of massive scything talons'. No such weapon profile is provided so I am unable to attack with a 'pair of massive scything talons' as a single weapon.

So the argument that a 'pair of massive scything talons' is a single weapon has no justification in the rules as they are written.

A pair of massive scything talonss are massive scything talons (plural), are they not?

col_impact wrote:
The rules only allow me to choose 'massive scything talons' in the plural as a weapon to attack with. The rules do not allow me to choose a single 'massive scything talon' as a weapon nor do they allow me to choose a 'pair of massive scything talons' as a weapon. Neither the single talon nor the pair of talons have weapon profiles.

This statement of yours is incorrect. As IJW points out, "A Trygon is a single model armed with...three pairs of massive scything talons" So, that's three weapons, each being a pair of massive scything talons. We know that a pair of massive scything talons is more than one scything talon, so a profile stating "massive scything talons" would be able to be applied to a pair of massive scything talons. so we have a profile that does apply to a pair of massive scything talons. We also know from the Fight Phase rules ""If a model has more than one melee weapon and can make several close combat attacks, it can split these attacks between these weapons however you wish - declare how you will divide the attacks before any dice are rolled." Since we know that it has 3 pairs of massive scything talons as per the datasheet, we can split the attacks between these three weapons. Each attack with a weapon will use the Massive Scything Talons profile as that is the profile for fighting with a pair of scything talons (as a pair of scything talons are talons in plural, not talon singular). The profile says that if we have an additional pair of scything talons, we get +1 A when fighting with this weapon. That means when you fight with all three weapons, each one generates +1 A for a total of +3 A. This is all according to RAW and breaks no rules. Your assumptions force you to break the rules because you will not allow the model to fight with the different melee weapons that are clearly indicated on the datasheet. You go through mental gymnastics to refer to the additional pairs as equpment, not daring to acknowledge that they are weapons. When it's listed that it has 3 pairs of scything claws, either each pair is a weapon or none are - there is no getting to call 1 pair a weapon and the other non-weapon "equipment". You have no rules support for that. The RAW I outline here has taken into consideration your arguments and has shown why they are irrelevant. You are fighting with 3 weapons - each a pair of massive scything talons.

IJW wrote:'A Trygon is a single model armed with... three pairs of massive scything talons.'

col_impact wrote:

 IJW wrote:
'A Trygon is a single model armed with... three pairs of massive scything talons.'

Not at issue.

col_impact, I have read everything in the thread and have looked at both sides and I think you may be parsing the sentence incorrectly. Look at IJW's quote above. I think you're reading the sentence like this:

....(three) + (pairs of massive scything talons).

whereas most everyone else in the thread is parsing the sentence as:

...(three pairs) + (of) + (massive scything talons)

Unfortunately, for your argument, the second reading is correct as far as the rules of english go. I think this whole issue boils down to how two (or more) people are interpreting the same sentence. That said, I think I have to lean toward the second reading now. Simply because if you're told you have two of something, there is only ever one profile, such as "two lascannons", but there is no such weapon as "two lascannons". So, either you get to shoot with both (which is understood) with the lascannon profile, or you don't get to shoot with any because there is no profile for "two lascannons". They did not list lascannon twice because it is redundant. They did not list Massive Scything Talons three times because it is redundant.

 Lance845 wrote:
Back to the best to ignore policy for me. Il be giving my models +1 attack per piece of wargear. I believe that means 3 for Tryon. Raw its 6. But that's because gw can't write rules for gak. It seems clear that a Tryon is equipped with 3 pieces of wargear since 3 is the number on the dataslate.

Actually there's a RAW argument for it being 3 - Massive Scything Talons is plural, a pair of scything talons is plural. You have 3 sets of these, so 3 weapons that use the Massive Scything Talons profile (as you are using more than one talon in each weapon set).

 puma713 wrote:

IJW wrote:'A Trygon is a single model armed with... three pairs of massive scything talons.'

col_impact wrote:

 IJW wrote:
'A Trygon is a single model armed with... three pairs of massive scything talons.'

Not at issue.

col_impact, I have read everything in the thread and have looked at both sides and I think you may be parsing the sentence incorrectly. Look at IJW's quote above. I think you're reading the sentence like this:

....(three) + (pairs of massive scything talons).

whereas most everyone else in the thread is parsing the sentence as:

...(three pairs) + (of) + (massive scything talons)

Unfortunately, for your argument, the second reading is correct as far as the rules of english go. I think this whole issue boils down to how two (or more) people are interpreting the same sentence. That said, I think I have to lean toward the second reading now. Simply because if you're told you have two of something, there is only ever one profile, such as "two lascannons", but there is no such weapon as "two lascannons". So, either you get to shoot with both (which is understood) with the lascannon profile, or you don't get to shoot with any because there is no profile for "two lascannons". They did not list lascannon twice because it is redundant. They did not list Massive Scything Talons three times because it is redundant.

You aren't reading the rules.

You have no permission to attack with anything else except 'massive scything talons' so no permission to individuate anything as a single weapon except 'massive scything talons' as a single weapon.

You can't attack with some subset of 'massive scything talons' since no subset of 'massive scything talons' is recognized as a weapon profile. In order for you to attack with some subset there must be a profile for <<subset>>.

That's the RAW.

The RAW is clear that you can only attack with 'massive scything talons' as a weapon and no subset of 'massive scything talons' is recognized as a single weapon.

The burden of proof is on you to provide a weapon profile for something other than 'massive scything talons'.

col_impact wrote:


You have no permission to attack with anything else except 'massive scything talons' so no permission to individuate anything as a single weapon except 'massive scything talons' as a single weapon.

I completely agree with you. "Massive Scything Talons" is a single weapon,of which a Trygon is equipped with three of. Otherwise, there are a lot of weapons that do not work in the game. The Eldar Crimson Hunter Exarch is armed with "two bright lances". There's no such thing as "two bright lances". There's only "Bright Lance" on his profile. So, he cannot fire his weapons, according to your logic.

You and I both know that the sentence is parsed as (two) + (bright lance(s)). Similarly, the Trygon's sentence is parsed (three pairs) + (of) + (massive scything talons).

 puma713 wrote:

col_impact wrote:


You have no permission to attack with anything else except 'massive scything talons' so no permission to individuate anything as a single weapon except 'massive scything talons' as a single weapon.

I completely agree with you. "Massive Scything Talons" is a single weapon,of which a Trygon is equipped with three of. Otherwise, there are a lot of weapons that do not work in the game. The Eldar Crimson Hunter Exarch is armed with "two bright lances". There's no such thing as "two bright lances". There's only "Bright Lance" on his profile. So, he cannot fire his weapons, according to your logic.

You and I both know that the sentence is parsed as (two) + (bright lance(s)). Similarly, the Trygon's sentence is parsed (three pairs) + (of) + (massive scything talons).

Nope.

Don't strawman my argument.

So long as the weapon profile is named 'bright lance' then the rules unequivocally recognize that the Exarch has indeed 2 bright lances.

It's the weapon profile that decides what is or is not a weapon. And your example only serves to reinforce my argument.

What you are failing to recognize is that you need a profile to attack with.

The only profile you have is 'massive scything talons' so that is what the rules recognize as a single weapon.

You can't go to attack with a single massive scything talon as a weapon since the rules do not recognize that as a single weapon.

You can't go to attack with a 'pair of massive scything talons' since the rules do not recognize a pair as a single weapon.

You can't got to attack with any subset of 'massive scything talons' since the rules do not recognize any <subset> of 'massive scything talons' as a single weapon.

You can only have the Trygon attack with 'massive scything talons' as a single weapon. You have no choice but to follow the rules as written.

So I suggest you read the rules again and pay attention to what the profile is telling you as to what is a single weapon.

col_impact wrote:

 puma713 wrote:

col_impact wrote:


You have no permission to attack with anything else except 'massive scything talons' so no permission to individuate anything as a single weapon except 'massive scything talons' as a single weapon.

I completely agree with you. "Massive Scything Talons" is a single weapon,of which a Trygon is equipped with three of. Otherwise, there are a lot of weapons that do not work in the game. The Eldar Crimson Hunter Exarch is armed with "two bright lances". There's no such thing as "two bright lances". There's only "Bright Lance" on his profile. So, he cannot fire his weapons, according to your logic.

You and I both know that the sentence is parsed as (two) + (bright lance(s)). Similarly, the Trygon's sentence is parsed (three pairs) + (of) + (massive scything talons).

Nope.

Don't strawman my argument.

So long as the weapon profile is named 'bright lance' then the rules unequivocally recognize that the Exarch has indeed 2 bright lances.

I think the fact that so many words are plural in the sentence, that it is throwing you for a loop. "Bright Lance" is a single weapon, just like "Massive Scything Talons" is a single weapon. The Exarch has two of them. The Trygon has three.

col_impact wrote:

It's the weapon profile that decides what is or is not a weapon.

What you are failing to recognize is that you need a profile to attack with.

The only profile you have is 'massive scything talons' so that is what the rules recognize as a single weapon.

You can't go to attack with a single massive scything talon as a weapon since the rules do not recognize that as a weapon.

I never said you were attacking with a single massive scything talon. I said you were attacking with a single "Massive Scything Talons". He has three to attack with, just like the Exarch.

col_impact wrote:

You can't go to attack with a 'pair of massive scything talons' since the rules do not recognize a pair as a weapon.

Agreed. "pair of massive scything talons" is an incorrect parsing of the sentence.

col_impact wrote:

You can't got to attack with any subset of 'massive scything talons' since the rules do not recognize any <subset> as a weapon.

This is where your logic fails. The rules of english step in where the rules of the game do not bridge a gap.

"Pairs" is the subject of the prepositional phrase created by "of". "Pairs" indicates a plural set of something. The definition of a plurality indicates more than one. So, we know that pair(s) is more than one, simply by the definition of the word in the english language. So, we have to complete the prepositional phrase:

(Pairs) + (of) what?

(Massive Scything Talons).

How many?

Three.

Three pairs of massive scything talons.

You created your own <subset> of two bright lances. <Bright Lance>, as indicated on the profile. You do the same thing with Trygon. Three pairs of <Massive Scything Talons>, as indicated on the profile.

 doctortom wrote:


This statement of yours is incorrect. As IJW points out, "A Trygon is a single model armed with...three pairs of massive scything talons" So, that's three weapons, each being a pair of massive scything talons. We know that a pair of massive scything talons is more than one scything talon, so a profile stating "massive scything talons" would be able to be applied to a pair of massive scything talons. so we have a profile that does apply to a pair of massive scything talons. We also know from the Fight Phase rules ""If a model has more than one melee weapon and can make several close combat attacks, it can split these attacks between these weapons however you wish - declare how you will divide the attacks before any dice are rolled." Since we know that it has 3 pairs of massive scything talons as per the datasheet, we can split the attacks between these three weapons. Each attack with a weapon will use the Massive Scything Talons profile as that is the profile for fighting with a pair of scything talons (as a pair of scything talons are talons in plural, not talon singular). The profile says that if we have an additional pair of scything talons, we get +1 A when fighting with this weapon. That means when you fight with all three weapons, each one generates +1 A for a total of +3 A. This is all according to RAW and breaks no rules. Your assumptions force you to break the rules because you will not allow the model to fight with the different melee weapons that are clearly indicated on the datasheet. You go through mental gymnastics to refer to the additional pairs as equpment, not daring to acknowledge that they are weapons. When it's listed that it has 3 pairs of scything claws, either each pair is a weapon or none are - there is no getting to call 1 pair a weapon and the other non-weapon "equipment". You have no rules support for that. The RAW I outline here has taken into consideration your arguments and has shown why they are irrelevant. You are fighting with 3 weapons - each a pair of massive scything talons.

Your argument only works if you have a profile for 'pair of massive scything talons'. You don't. So your argument has no merit. You have no permission to attack with anything but 'massive scything talons' as a single weapon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 puma713 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 puma713 wrote:

col_impact wrote:


You have no permission to attack with anything else except 'massive scything talons' so no permission to individuate anything as a single weapon except 'massive scything talons' as a single weapon.

I completely agree with you. "Massive Scything Talons" is a single weapon,of which a Trygon is equipped with three of. Otherwise, there are a lot of weapons that do not work in the game. The Eldar Crimson Hunter Exarch is armed with "two bright lances". There's no such thing as "two bright lances". There's only "Bright Lance" on his profile. So, he cannot fire his weapons, according to your logic.

You and I both know that the sentence is parsed as (two) + (bright lance(s)). Similarly, the Trygon's sentence is parsed (three pairs) + (of) + (massive scything talons).

Nope.

Don't strawman my argument.

So long as the weapon profile is named 'bright lance' then the rules unequivocally recognize that the Exarch has indeed 2 bright lances.

I think the fact that so many words are plural in the sentence, that it is throwing you for a loop. "Bright Lance" is a single weapon, just like "Massive Scything Talons" is a single weapon. The Exarch has two of them. The Trygon has three.

col_impact wrote:

It's the weapon profile that decides what is or is not a weapon.

What you are failing to recognize is that you need a profile to attack with.

The only profile you have is 'massive scything talons' so that is what the rules recognize as a single weapon.

You can't go to attack with a single massive scything talon as a weapon since the rules do not recognize that as a weapon.

I never said you were attacking with a single massive scything talon. I said you were attacking with a single "Massive Scything Talons". He has three to attack with, just like the Exarch.

col_impact wrote:

You can't go to attack with a 'pair of massive scything talons' since the rules do not recognize a pair as a weapon.

Agreed. "pair of massive scything talons" is an incorrect parsing of the sentence.

col_impact wrote:

You can't got to attack with any subset of 'massive scything talons' since the rules do not recognize any <subset> as a weapon.

This is where your logic fails. The rules of english step in where the rules of the game do not bridge a gap.

"Pairs" is the subject of the prepositional phrase created by "of". "Pairs" indicates a plural set of something. The definition of a plurality indicates more than one. So, we know that pair(s) is more than one, simply by the definition of the word in the english language. So, we have to complete the prepositional phrase:

(Pairs) + (of) what?

Massive Scything Talons.

How many?

Three.

Three pairs of massive scything talons.

You created your own <subset> of two bright lances. <Bright Lance>, as indicated on the profile. You do the same thing with Trygon. Three pairs of <Massive Scything Talons>, as indicated on the profile.

You are the one being thrown for a loop.

You keep ignoring the weapon profile that tells you what is a weapon.

You can't attack with any subset of 'massive scything talons' unless you have a profile for that subset. You can't attack with a 'pair of massive scything talons' as a single weapon unless you have a profile for 'pair of massive scything talons'.

The rules offer no alternative for the Trygon except for him to attack with 'massive scything talons' as a single weapon.

Until someone can present some weapon profile for some subset other than 'massive scything talons' my argument is proved by the rules as written.

 doctortom wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Back to the best to ignore policy for me. Il be giving my models +1 attack per piece of wargear. I believe that means 3 for Tryon. Raw its 6. But that's because gw can't write rules for gak. It seems clear that a Tryon is equipped with 3 pieces of wargear since 3 is the number on the dataslate.

Actually there's a RAW argument for it being 3 - Massive Scything Talons is plural, a pair of scything talons is plural. You have 3 sets of these, so 3 weapons that use the Massive Scything Talons profile (as you are using more than one talon in each weapon set).

I don't disagree. They wrote it ambiguously. But I think that's the intent.

col_impact wrote:


You can't attack with any subset of 'massive scything talons' unless you have a profile for that subset.

Where is this written? I have a profile for my single weapon. It is called "Massive Scything Talons". The datasheet says I have three pairs of them. Just like the Exarch has a profile for his single weapon Bright Lance. The datasheet says he has two of them. You have specific rules in the rulebook to use any weapon you are equipped with on your datasheet. Where are the rules in the rulebook to define the fact that you cannot use your listed weapons? 40K is a permissive ruleset. You must be told that you can do something to do it. The rules for choosing your weapon say that the weapons are listed on the datasheet. Nothing about profiles. Simply that the weapons are on the datasheet.

col_impact wrote:

The rules offer no alternative for the Trygon except for him to attack with 'massive scything talons' as a single weapon.

Agreed. And he is equipped with three of them.

If you do not agree with the rules of the english language, nothing more can be said, I suppose.

col_impact wrote:

 doctortom wrote:


This statement of yours is incorrect. As IJW points out, "A Trygon is a single model armed with...three pairs of massive scything talons" So, that's three weapons, each being a pair of massive scything talons. We know that a pair of massive scything talons is more than one scything talon, so a profile stating "massive scything talons" would be able to be applied to a pair of massive scything talons. so we have a profile that does apply to a pair of massive scything talons. We also know from the Fight Phase rules ""If a model has more than one melee weapon and can make several close combat attacks, it can split these attacks between these weapons however you wish - declare how you will divide the attacks before any dice are rolled." Since we know that it has 3 pairs of massive scything talons as per the datasheet, we can split the attacks between these three weapons. Each attack with a weapon will use the Massive Scything Talons profile as that is the profile for fighting with a pair of scything talons (as a pair of scything talons are talons in plural, not talon singular). The profile says that if we have an additional pair of scything talons, we get +1 A when fighting with this weapon. That means when you fight with all three weapons, each one generates +1 A for a total of +3 A. This is all according to RAW and breaks no rules. Your assumptions force you to break the rules because you will not allow the model to fight with the different melee weapons that are clearly indicated on the datasheet. You go through mental gymnastics to refer to the additional pairs as equpment, not daring to acknowledge that they are weapons. When it's listed that it has 3 pairs of scything claws, either each pair is a weapon or none are - there is no getting to call 1 pair a weapon and the other non-weapon "equipment". You have no rules support for that. The RAW I outline here has taken into consideration your arguments and has shown why they are irrelevant. You are fighting with 3 weapons - each a pair of massive scything talons.

Your argument only works if you have a profile for 'pair of massive scything talons'. You don't. So your argument has no merit. You have no permission to attack with anything but 'massive scything talons' as a single weapon.

Incorrect. My argument works when the datasheet indicates that we have multiple weapons - 3 pairs of massive scything talons. It states that there are 3 weapons. Your argument refuses to acknowledge that, and is therefore in violation of the Fight Phase rules about selecting a weapon. Each set is a pair - a pair of what? Massive Scything Talons. So, we have a profile for Massive Scything Talons, and we get to use that. As the datasheet indicates that we have 3 weapons like this, we have 3 separate weapons with the Massive Scything Talons profile to split attacks between. The datasheet indicates that we have 3 sets, and the Choose Melee Weapon part of the Fight Phase rules gives us permission to fight with multiple weapons - in this case 3 pairs of "massive scything talons". Alll permissions granted by the datasheet and the core rules, all according to RAW. Your rejection of the arument has no merit.

 puma713 wrote:

col_impact wrote:


You can't attack with any subset of 'massive scything talons' unless you have a profile for that subset.

Where is this written? I have a profile for my single weapon. It is called "Massive Scything Talons". The datasheet says I have three pairs of them. Just like the Exarch has a profile for his single weapon Bright Lance. The datasheet says he has two of them. You have specific rules in the rulebook to use any weapon you are equipped with on your datasheet. Where are the rules in the rulebook to define the fact that you cannot use your listed weapons? 40K is a permissive ruleset. You must be told that you can do something to do it. The rules for choosing your weapon say that the weapons are listed on the datasheet. Nothing about profiles. Simply that the weapons are on the datasheet.

col_impact wrote:

The rules offer no alternative for the Trygon except for him to attack with 'massive scything talons' as a single weapon.

Agreed. And he is equipped with three of them.

If you do not agree with the rules of the english language, nothing more can be said, I suppose.

You aren't reading the rules.

No rule is recognizing a 'pair of massive scything talons' as a weapon so you cannot choose to attack with a pair. You can only choose to attack with 'massive scything talons' as a single weapon and not a subset of that amount. A single attack of 'massive scything talons' exhausts all 'massive scything talons' since you have no permission to attack with any subset of the full amount as a single attack.

The rules for 40k are a permissive dataset. Unless you can show permission to attack with some subset of 'massive scything talons' as a single weapon then you cannot. You need permission to individuate some amount other than the full amount as a single weapon and you lack that permission.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 doctortom wrote:


Incorrect. My argument works when the datasheet indicates that we have multiple weapons - 3 pairs of massive scything talons. It states that there are 3 weapons. Your argument refuses to acknowledge that, and is therefore in violation of the Fight Phase rules about selecting a weapon. Each set is a pair - a pair of what? Massive Scything Talons. So, we have a profile for Massive Scything Talons, and we get to use that. As the datasheet indicates that we have 3 weapons like this, we have 3 separate weapons with the Massive Scything Talons profile to split attacks between. The datasheet indicates that we have 3 sets, and the Choose Melee Weapon part of the Fight Phase rules gives us permission to fight with multiple weapons - in this case 3 pairs of "massive scything talons". Alll permissions granted by the datasheet and the core rules, all according to RAW. Your rejection of the arument has no merit.

The datasheet only recognizes 'massive scything talons' as a single weapon and does not recognize any subset of those as a single weapon. You cannot choose to attack with any subset of 'massive scything talons' since no subset is recognized as a single weapon. That's the RAW.

col_impact wrote:

 doctortom wrote:


Incorrect. My argument works when the datasheet indicates that we have multiple weapons - 3 pairs of massive scything talons. It states that there are 3 weapons. Your argument refuses to acknowledge that, and is therefore in violation of the Fight Phase rules about selecting a weapon. Each set is a pair - a pair of what? Massive Scything Talons. So, we have a profile for Massive Scything Talons, and we get to use that. As the datasheet indicates that we have 3 weapons like this, we have 3 separate weapons with the Massive Scything Talons profile to split attacks between. The datasheet indicates that we have 3 sets, and the Choose Melee Weapon part of the Fight Phase rules gives us permission to fight with multiple weapons - in this case 3 pairs of "massive scything talons". Alll permissions granted by the datasheet and the core rules, all according to RAW. Your rejection of the arument has no merit.

The datasheet only recognizes 'massive scything talons' as a single weapon and does not recognize any subset of those as a single weapon. You cannot choose to attack with any subset of 'massive scything talons' since no subset is recognized as a single weapon. That's the RAW.

You're conflating a weapon with a weapon's profile. When you attack, you are told that you can choose any number of weapons that you are armed with to attack. Where do you go to find the weapons that the model is armed with? It's not the profiles. Profiles are not weapons. If you looked at the profiles to decide what a model is armed with, Knight Titans would be armed with a whole host of weapons.

Profiles are simply rules for how the weapon interacts with the game. You do not go to the Profiles section to choose a weapon. So, you choose the three pairs of massive scything talons to fight with. Then, you check how your three pairs of massive scything talons interact with the assault and other models. You confirm that you're using three weapons before you even go to the profile to check how those three weapons interact with anything.

Logically, you can deduce that you use that profile three times, as you've chosen the (three pairs) of (massive scything talons) as your weapons. As with any other weapon in the game, it would make no logical sense to shoot all of your weapons twice when you're equipped with two, or use two different melee weapons when you're equipped with them and not do so with the Trygon.


Forget profiles for a second. Assume you're a Tyranid player. Before you even get to the profile, what weapons do you choose to fight with in assault?

 puma713 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 doctortom wrote:


Incorrect. My argument works when the datasheet indicates that we have multiple weapons - 3 pairs of massive scything talons. It states that there are 3 weapons. Your argument refuses to acknowledge that, and is therefore in violation of the Fight Phase rules about selecting a weapon. Each set is a pair - a pair of what? Massive Scything Talons. So, we have a profile for Massive Scything Talons, and we get to use that. As the datasheet indicates that we have 3 weapons like this, we have 3 separate weapons with the Massive Scything Talons profile to split attacks between. The datasheet indicates that we have 3 sets, and the Choose Melee Weapon part of the Fight Phase rules gives us permission to fight with multiple weapons - in this case 3 pairs of "massive scything talons". Alll permissions granted by the datasheet and the core rules, all according to RAW. Your rejection of the arument has no merit.

The datasheet only recognizes 'massive scything talons' as a single weapon and does not recognize any subset of those as a single weapon. You cannot choose to attack with any subset of 'massive scything talons' since no subset is recognized as a single weapon. That's the RAW.

You're conflating a weapon with a weapon's profile. When you attack, you are told that you can choose any number of weapons that you are armed with to attack. Where do you go to find the weapons that the model is armed with? It's not the profiles. Profiles are not weapons. If you looked at the profiles to decide what a model is armed with, Knight Titans would be armed with a whole host of weapons.

Profiles are simply rules for how the weapon interacts with the game. You do not go to the Profiles section to choose a weapon. So, you choose the three pairs of massive scything talons to fight with. Then, you check how your three pairs of massive scything talons interact with the assault and other models. You confirm that you're using three weapons before you even go to the profile to check how those three weapons interact with anything.

Logically, you can deduce that you use that profile three times, as you've chosen the (three pairs) of (massive scything talons) as your weapons. As with any other weapon in the game, it would make no logical sense to shoot all of your weapons twice when you're equipped with two, or use two different melee weapons when you're equipped with them and not do so with the Trygon.

The weapon profile indicates what is a single weapon. In this case 'massive scything talons' is a single weapon. There is no other profile except 'massive scything talons' provided. When you go to attack you are unable to attack with any subset of 'massive scything talons' as a single weapon since you have no profile giving you that permission. You need a profile that declares a 'pair of massive scything talons' to be a single weapon in order to attack with that pair as a single weapon. The profile you have is for 'massive scything talons' and no subset of 'massive scything talons' is recognized as a single weapon.

The rules give you no choice but to attack with all of the 'massive scything talons' as a single weapon. Any subset of that amount is not a valid choice per the RAW.

col_impact wrote:


The weapon profile indicates what is a single weapon. In this case 'massive scything talons' is a single weapon. There is no other profile except 'massive scything talons' provided. When you go to attack you are unable to attack with any subset of 'massive scything talons' as a single weapon since you have no profile giving you that permission. You need a profile that declares a 'pair of massive scything talons' to be a single weapon in order to attack with that pair as a single weapon. The profile you have is for 'massive scything talons' and no subset of 'massive scything talons' is recognized as a single weapon.

The rules give you no choice but to attack with all of the 'massive scything talons' as a single weapon. Any subset of that amount is not a valid choice per the RAW.

Again, you do not choose a "profile" to attack with. You choose a weapon. Where do you go to choose a model's weapon? Not its profile. You choose from what it is armed with. Then, after you've chosen your weapons, then you consult their profiles.

I wonder if orknado will be summoned to back up Col. Worth logging out and in again?

 puma713 wrote:

col_impact wrote:


The weapon profile indicates what is a single weapon. In this case 'massive scything talons' is a single weapon. There is no other profile except 'massive scything talons' provided. When you go to attack you are unable to attack with any subset of 'massive scything talons' as a single weapon since you have no profile giving you that permission. You need a profile that declares a 'pair of massive scything talons' to be a single weapon in order to attack with that pair as a single weapon. The profile you have is for 'massive scything talons' and no subset of 'massive scything talons' is recognized as a single weapon.

The rules give you no choice but to attack with all of the 'massive scything talons' as a single weapon. Any subset of that amount is not a valid choice per the RAW.

Again, you do not choose a "profile" to attack with. You choose a weapon. Where do you go to choose a model's weapon? Not its profile. You choose from what it is armed with. Then, after you've chosen your weapons, then you consult their profiles.

The weapon profile tells you what is a weapon. The weapon profile you have tells you that 'massive scything talons' is a weapon. You don't have a weapon profile for 'pair of massive scything talons' so you cannot choose to attack with a pair of 'massive scything talons' or any subset for that matter..


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eldarain wrote:
I wonder if orknado will be summoned to back up Col. Worth logging out and in again?

I am not sure what you are suggesting. Orknado is a relative of mine so he is welcome to his opinion on the matter.

col_impact wrote:

 puma713 wrote:

col_impact wrote:


The weapon profile indicates what is a single weapon. In this case 'massive scything talons' is a single weapon. There is no other profile except 'massive scything talons' provided. When you go to attack you are unable to attack with any subset of 'massive scything talons' as a single weapon since you have no profile giving you that permission. You need a profile that declares a 'pair of massive scything talons' to be a single weapon in order to attack with that pair as a single weapon. The profile you have is for 'massive scything talons' and no subset of 'massive scything talons' is recognized as a single weapon.

The rules give you no choice but to attack with all of the 'massive scything talons' as a single weapon. Any subset of that amount is not a valid choice per the RAW.

Again, you do not choose a "profile" to attack with. You choose a weapon. Where do you go to choose a model's weapon? Not its profile. You choose from what it is armed with. Then, after you've chosen your weapons, then you consult their profiles.

The weapon profile tells you what is a weapon. The weapon profile you have tells you that 'massive scything talons' is a weapon. You don't have a weapon profile for 'pair of massive scything talons' so you cannot choose to attack with a pair of 'massive scything talons' or any subset for that matter..

The profile is largely irrelevant on the actual choosing of the weapon. In fact, it is not factored into the RAW at all. The RAW makes no mention of the profile. The rules say to choose the weapons you'd like to assault with.. You choose weapons, not profiles. The trygon has three pairs of massive scything talons and a biostatic rattle to choose from. After you've chosen what combination of weapons you'd like to attack with, then consult the profile to see how each weapon interacts with the game.

Per the rules of the english language, "three pairs of massive scything talons" are three independent weapons that may be chosen, because of the structure of prepositional phrases. Once you've chosen your weapons, then consult the profile to see how each weapon interacts with the game.

 puma713 wrote:


The profile is largely irrelevant on the actual choosing of the weapon. In fact, it is not factored into the RAW at all. The RAW makes no mention of the profile. The rules say to choose the weapons you'd like to assault with.. You choose weapons, not profiles. The trygon has three pairs of massive scything talons and a biostatic rattle to choose from. After you've chosen what combination of weapons you'd like to attack with, then consult the profile to see how each weapon interacts with the game.

Per the rules of the english language, "three pairs of massive scything talons" are three independent weapons that may be chosen, because of the structure of prepositional phrases. Once you've chosen your weapons, then consult the profile to see how each weapon interacts with the game.

Not correct at all. Again, the profile defines what the weapon is. In this case 'massive scything talons' is the weapon. So you can only choose 'massive scything talons' as a weapon and no subset of that as a weapon. You only have permission to consider 'massive scything talons' as a weapon and you don't have permission to consider anything else as a weapon. I am sorry but the weapon profile says what it says. If you don't adhere to the weapon profile then you are breaking from the Rules As Written