TYRANIDS - Massive Scything Talons

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**Charistoph**

JohnnyHell wrote:
It really doesn't. Intent is clear at +1 regardless of number of pairs of Scything Talons beyond the first.

Well, it is clear NOW. It wasn't clear before. If anything, it was clearly dependent on the number of Weapons that were being used with the phrase "this weapon".

**col_impact**

I already addressed the Leman Russ example as it was presented by a different poster with a different example. See https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/240/729357.page#9462392

The weapon profile is for 'heavy flamer' so without a doubt the Leman Russ is equipped with two heavy flamers. So your argument is simply not relevant at all to the case at hand and you are trying to misrepresent and strawman my argument.

In the case of the Trygon he is equipped with 'massive scything talons' and it is recognized as a single weapon. As I have been saying all along, the use of the plural in the weapon profile is significant and how the rule is written.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Charistoph wrote:
JohnnyHell wrote:
It really doesn't. Intent is clear at +1 regardless of number of pairs of Scything Talons beyond the first.

Well, it is clear NOW. It wasn't clear before. If anything, it was clearly dependent on the number of Weapons that were being used with the phrase "this weapon".

Considering that 'this weapon' referred to 'massive scything talons' in the plural and there was no profile for 'pair of massive scything talons' or 'massive scything talon', it was more a case of you getting confused by the use of the plural. The rule as written clearly indicated +1A as long as you didn't overlook the use of the plural.

Spoiler:

The heart of this debate is the answer to the question 'what counts as a weapon'?

My argument is that the rules literally tell us that answer. The weapon profile is for 'massive scything talons' and refers to itself as 'this weapon'. Therefore, the rules recognize that a plural number of 'massive scything talons' is a single weapon profile.

Lance845 has tried to argue that the use of the plural is a mistake, but that is obviously an argument against the rules as they are written on the page. The rule writers chose to identify a plural number of 'massive scything talons' as a single weapon and we must follow that rule. We must accept the rules as they are written.

Right off the bat we know that any argument that a single 'massive scything talon' is a weapon is false. If a single 'massive scything talon' were a weapon then the weapon profile would be for a 'massive scything talon'. It isn't. The rules tell us that a plural number of massive scything talons is a single weapon instead.

So the argument that a single massive scything talon is a weapon is directly disproven by the rules as they are written.

The other argument, that a 'pair of massive scything talons' is a weapon fails to support itself with rules. A 'pair of massive scything talons' is recognized by the rules as a purchasing entity and as an entity that affects the +1 A rule in the 'massive scything talons' profile, but the rules do not recognize a 'pair of massive scything talons as a weapon profile. If a 'pair of massive scything talons' were to be recognized as a single weapon then a weapon profile would be provided for 'pair of massive scything talons'. No such weapon profile is provided so I am unable to attack with a 'pair of massive scything talons' as a single weapon.

So the argument that a 'pair of massive scything talons' is a single weapon has no justification in the rules as they are written.

The rules only allow me to choose 'massive scything talons' in the plural as a weapon to attack with. The rules do not allow me to choose a single 'massive scything talon' as a weapon nor do they allow me to choose a 'pair of massive scything talons' as a weapon. Neither the single talon nor the pair of talons have weapon profiles.

I can only choose the profile that I am provided with by the rules. I am not allowed to make up profiles. A Trygon is only allowed to attack with a single weapon that represents all of the 'massive scything talons' he is equipped with. A Trygon has no other profiles for his 'massive scything talons' with which to attack. There is no profile for a single 'talon' nor for a 'pair of talons' so the trygon can only attack with his 'massive scything talons' as a single weapon.

As you can see, my argument is directly proven by the RAW.

**Charistoph**

Anyone else notice in the rulebook FAQ the Chainsword is allowed to make additional attacks with two Chainswords?

Aren't the rules that do this written the same way (I don't have either index)?

**col_impact**

Charistoph wrote:
Anyone else notice in the rulebook FAQ the Chainsword is allowed to make additional attacks with two Chainswords?

Aren't the rules that do this written the same way (I don't have either index)?

Chainsword:

Spoiler:

Massive scything talons:

Spoiler:

The difference between the two is the use of the plural in the latter weapon profile. "This weapon" refers to 'massive scything talons' and you only have permission to attack with that weapon. You got confused by the plural.

**JohnnyHell**

Charistoph wrote:
JohnnyHell wrote:
It really doesn't. Intent is clear at +1 regardless of number of pairs of Scything Talons beyond the first.

Well, it is clear NOW. It wasn't clear before. If anything, it was clearly dependent on the number of Weapons that were being used with the phrase "this weapon".

I was referring to now. I felt it was before, YMMV. My point replying to BaconCatBug was that his gripe wasn't valid. They may have tangentially answered the question but they've answered it.

**Charistoph**

JohnnyHell wrote:
Charistoph wrote:
JohnnyHell wrote:
It really doesn't. Intent is clear at +1 regardless of number of pairs of Scything Talons beyond the first.

Well, it is clear NOW. It wasn't clear before. If anything, it was clearly dependent on the number of Weapons that were being used with the phrase "this weapon".

I was referring to now. I felt it was before, YMMV. My point replying to BaconCatBug was that his gripe wasn't valid. They may have tangentially answered the question but they've answered it.

Fair enough. Lack of quoting or addressing the person in question made it seem a general comment rather than a specific response.

------

Could someone who is reliable and I don't have on ignore answer the questions regarding the Scything Talons and Chainsword question?

**JohnnyHell**

They're worded and now both FAQ clarified differently.

Two chainswords gives +2 Chainsword Attacks.

Two extra pairs of Scything talons only gives +1 attack, not +2.

**Charistoph**

JohnnyHell wrote:
They're worded and now both FAQ clarified differently.

I read the FAQs, which is why I was asking the question. Out of curiosity, how are they worded differently?

**JohnnyHell**

col_impact wrote:
Charistoph wrote:
Anyone else notice in the rulebook FAQ the Chainsword is allowed to make additional attacks with two Chainswords?

Aren't the rules that do this written the same way (I don't have either index)?

Chainsword:

Spoiler:

Each time the bearer fights,it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon.

Massive scything talons:

Spoiler:

You can re-roll hit rolls of 1 when attacking with this weapon. If the bearer has more than one pair of massive scything talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon each time it fights.

The difference between the two is the use of the plural in the latter weapon profile. "This weapon" refers to 'massive scything talons' and you only have permission to attack with that weapon. You got confused by the plural.

Like so.

**Lorek**

In-thread warnings have been applied as warranted.

The question has been answered officially, so I'm locking this thread.