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I'm kind of agreeing with the "things will return to the status quo" theory. With a few caveats. Everyone has forgotten what the status quo actually was.

It'll probably involve a character sacrificing thermals to become the new Nights King.

I've always liked my idea that the "free fowks" weren't fork who declared themselves free from the Southern Lords but in ancient times rebelled against the terms of the negotiated peace treaty with the white walkers. - that their first born shall be given to them, as the only way to further their species.

Caster, this was the last follower of this treaty.

It's just simply that so much of these details have been lost over millennia.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Seriously? Of course Azor Ahai has been mentioned on the show, its all Melisandre ever talks about.

I thought she just said the "prince that was promised" - thats the same thing right? (and lets face it she has not got anything right in her propercies for ages :0 .)

Lets face it alot of what happens now is in the hands of the show runners and what they think will work best for the audience. Which is a good thing IMO.

 Ouze wrote:

 reds8n wrote:
and she's supposed to die at the hand of her younger brother right ? Whom she thinks means Tyrion but if she was born before Jamie...

... who has a gold hand as referenced in the song.. which, one gathers, was originally used in the book in the Tyrion/Shae plot.. and is the song he thinks of when strangling her.

Book readers : is that right ?

I don't believe the song has anything to do with Jaime. It's strictly a throwback to Tyrion\Shae and the song that Bronn tried pretty hard to put a lid on - the hand of gold is totally coincidental IMO, in the book the "hands of gold" refer to the necklace.

At this point, I wouldn't even but it past them to have something happen where someone rips off his hand and beats her to death with it, or if he tries to swing a sword and it flies off and hits her in the face and causes her to fall off a wall or something. That way he didn't kill her, but she still died at the "hands of the little brother" or something stupid like that

 Ouze wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Sansa was right about Jon needing to wise up, but FFS did she really need to challenge his authority in public like that? Couldn't she just whisper in his ear, or approach him in private?

Shes right about her learning from Cersei...In fact she probably learned too much from Cersei.

Even had the same hairdo

Spoiler:

And yes, I agree with Sansa, but man her presentation sucked: the Starks need to be on the same page in public.

didn't they talk about this at all before having the meeting/town hall/whatever?

I think Jon made the correct call. The heirs are not guilty, this is important as it guarantees succession rights and redemption in the future.
Had Sansa got her way the Starks then or later would have come across the same problem that medieval kings did when succession right was not permitted. Once a house rebells there is no turning back, as they house is totally forfeit if it loses. This reinforces an incentive not to lose and makes restitution near impossible,
However you can permit an heir to inherit after putting their father to death, it happened a lot in medieval times and less came of it than would have thought.
Jon however did have free reign to appoint an upcoming bannerman to the Dreadfort and the Bolton lands, there are no Boltons left and even if they were they were not merely teasonous but genocidal. As far as a Stark could tell the houses of Frey and Bolton are beyond redemption and require extermination. Again having different levels of rebellion is not uncommon in the medieval mind, and Westeros is heavily based on medieval thinking.

Even in the previous seasons it was a problem with Cercei holding grudges against houses and her dad trying to teach her "fight them, beat them, and make them bend the knee and reward them for submitting"

Jon also said that their castles would likely be the first to be attacked by the Walkers if they crossed the wall. The Carstarks and Umbers are probably not going to survive the winter.

Agree with the above posters...overall, Jon was right.

It's interesting that Sansa would reference Robb as having made stupid mistakes, when the relevant stupid mistake here was Robb's overly harsh treatment of the Karstarks, a highly valuable ally, during a time of war. Sansa isn't wrong to be keeping an eye on what's happening to the south, but we all know where the true enemy is.

Sansa is indeed getting very Cersei-like. It wasn't just called out in dialogue, but in Sansa's hairstyle, which evoked Cersei's pre-shaming. Clearly this is going to be a plot point this season. Hopefully for the Starks, Sansa doesn't pick up the Cersei trait of being more conniving than bright...

Its a very tricky thing dealing with the aftermath of a rebellion.

Do you reward those who stood with you - and lets face it usually the only way you can normally do this is by taking the lands of those who didn't.

 Orlanth wrote:
I think Jon made the correct call.

Wait, I need to clarify something I said. I said "I think Sansa was right... etc". I wasn't saying she was right on taking the castles from the people who rebelled. Jon was right on that call - in the war to come, there are only the living and the dead. There is simply no more time for internecine squabbling.

What I agreed with Sansa on was her little chat afterward with Jon - that he needs to be smarter. He has it in him to do the hard thing when needed (ref Janos Slynt), but he also has in him the same foolish sense of honor that got Ned killed (ref how Jon almost died trying to save Rickon).

OK . What happen to Lord Tully in Frey keep. I wonder if we see him again. I also wonder if going to control all of River Run and The Twin.

It would seem that House Tully now has the main legitimate claim to the Twins, which should give it to the North.

Another good episode

Theon Greyjoy has left the game was one of the more lol moments in a good episode.

I guess we have to have Jon and Dany together to keep the fans happy but sending Sansa as Emmisary would have been a more sensible move I feel.

I don't think so. Melisandre mentioned to Dany "Summon Jon Snow and ask him of the things he has seen".

Jon Snow needs Daenerys on his side to fight the White Walkers. Only he can truly impress upon her the dire threat that the Night King poses. And Jon Snow shows to Daenerys his fatal stab wounds, proving his death and resurrection, then she'll know that the Lord of Light truly does favour him. Which must count for something I guess.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

I guess we have to have Jon and Dany together to keep the fans happy but sending Sansa as Emmisary would have been a more sensible move I feel.

I don't think so. Melisandre mentioned to Dany "Summon Jon Snow and ask him of the things he has seen".

Jon Snow needs Daenerys on his side to fight the White Walkers. Only he can truly impress upon her the dire threat that the Night King poses. And Jon Snow shows to Daenerys his fatal stab wounds, proving his death and resurrection, then she'll know that the Lord of Light truly does favour him. Which must count for something I guess.

Well he has a good chance of cocking it up - lets face it talking is not his strong point For instance he does still need Littlefinger and his army who really did save him after he singlehandedly lost the battle of the Bastards.

Has he had Ghost put down by the way or just forgotton him compeltley. Nice bit with the other wolf - thats that story done then.

I would not like to be the captives just taken by the Greyjoys - especially those given to Cersei

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

I guess we have to have Jon and Dany together to keep the fans happy but sending Sansa as Emmisary would have been a more sensible move I feel.

I don't think so. Melisandre mentioned to Dany "Summon Jon Snow and ask him of the things he has seen".

Jon Snow needs Daenerys on his side to fight the White Walkers. Only he can truly impress upon her the dire threat that the Night King poses. And Jon Snow shows to Daenerys his fatal stab wounds, proving his death and resurrection, then she'll know that the Lord of Light truly does favour him. Which must count for something I guess.

Well he has a good chance of cocking it up - lets face it talking is not his strong point For instance he does still need Littlefinger and his army who really did save him after he singlehandedly lost the battle of the Bastards.

Has he had Ghost put down by the way or just forgotton him compeltley. Nice bit with the other wolf - thats that story done then.

I would not like to be the captives just taken by the Greyjoys - especially those given to Cersei

No he doesn't. Jon needs the army of the Vale, not Littlefinger. The army and Lords of the Vale are not loyal to Littlefinger, in fact they tried to eliminate him until Littlefinger leveraged his influence over Lord Arryn to intimidate them. But they're a long way from the Vale now, and Littlefinger can't rely on using Sweet Robin to back up his authority...accidents can happen.

Theres also the matter of the Season 7 Plot Leak...(MASSIVE SPOILERS, obviously...)

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

I guess we have to have Jon and Dany together to keep the fans happy but sending Sansa as Emmisary would have been a more sensible move I feel.

I don't think so. Melisandre mentioned to Dany "Summon Jon Snow and ask him of the things he has seen".

Jon Snow needs Daenerys on his side to fight the White Walkers. Only he can truly impress upon her the dire threat that the Night King poses. And Jon Snow shows to Daenerys his fatal stab wounds, proving his death and resurrection, then she'll know that the Lord of Light truly does favour him. Which must count for something I guess.

Well he has a good chance of cocking it up - lets face it talking is not his strong point For instance he does still need Littlefinger and his army who really did save him after he singlehandedly lost the battle of the Bastards.

Has he had Ghost put down by the way or just forgotton him compeltley. Nice bit with the other wolf - thats that story done then.

I would not like to be the captives just taken by the Greyjoys - especially those given to Cersei

No he doesn't. Jon needs the army of the Vale, not Littlefinger. The army and Lords of the Vale are not loyal to Littlefinger, in fact they tried to eliminate him until Littlefinger leveraged his influence over Lord Arryn to intimidate them. But they're a long way from the Vale now, and Littlefinger can't rely on using Sweet Robin to back up his authority...accidents can happen.

Theres also the matter of the Season 7 Plot Leak...(MASSIVE SPOILERS, obviously...)

Spoiler:

...which has so far been 100% accurate...Sansa orders Littlefinger's execution in the Season Finale.

My guess is she finally comes clean with the Lords of the Vale, and exposes Littlefinger for his murder of Lysa Arryn. Enraged, they abandon him and step aside allowing Sansa to execute him.

Fair enough and seems like a good thing for everyone.

 Ouze wrote:
I think there is a reasonable chance of that happening.

One of the prevalent themes of ASOIAF is subverting tropes (no white knight will come and rescue Sansa at the last second, Ned doesn't save everyone, and so one) - so the idea that the White Walkers totally win and that's how it ends is, I think, wholly plausible.

I think another constant in the show is that no-one ever gets exactly what they want. No win is ever complete, or absolute, and even the most powerful, Valyrians, Targaryens, they all fall. Every victory, no matter how triumphant, just leads to new problems. I don't think the White Walkers will be any different - they won't get an absolute like no-one gets an absolute win. Exactly what a partial win might be I don't know, but it'll be that or annihilation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Spoiler:

The clips that show Cersi with icy breath - Zombie Queen/ White Walker to come?

I think it just means winter coming to King's Landing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Has he had Ghost put down by the way or just forgotton him compeltley.

I think the wolves are used sparingly because they're really expensive to animate. Seriously. So unless it's a key plot point or a big battle spectacle the producers won't include Ghost. Wait for the mid-season spectacle episode or the finale

Nice bit with the other wolf - thats that story done then.

People are work were complaining about that scene but I thought it was great. Arya met with her wolf, offered for her to come join with Arya, and then said "No that's not you" or something to that effect. This worked in both tying up the story of Arya's direwolf, and also working like all the direwolf stories did as a mirror of their owners own stories. For instance Lady was a beatstick for Cersei's cruelty, when she couldn't reach the Stark family members she really wanted to hurt, Sansa suffered the exact same fate. Grey Wind and Robb shared literally the same fate.

Arya realised it wasn't Nymeria's nature to return to Arya's side, just as it isn't in her own nature to return to Jon and Sansa. She has her own purpose now.

I think there is a reasonable chance of that happening.

One of the prevalent themes of ASOIAF is subverting tropes (no white knight will come and rescue Sansa at the last second, Ned doesn't save everyone, and so one) - so the idea that the White Walkers totally win and that's how it ends is, I think, wholly plausible.

GRM can do that in the books (or not as its unlikely he will finish them I think) but I doubt a tv show, especially as popular as this one would go for that sort of ending.

Well except for Fat Sam - I expect he will get a happy ending as he has more plot shields than anything else in existance in that universe.

 Mr Morden wrote:


Well except for Fat Sam - I expect he will get a happy ending as he has more plot shields than anything else in existance in that universe.

He's nothing next to Jon Snow. Whiney bastard, lord commander, king in the north, part-time wildling, kills a bunch of better men than him, northern bastard championship holder, gets a valyrian steel sword 5 minutes after saying his words, closet targaryan and the most obvious plot armour, cheated death.

 MarsNZ wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:


Well except for Fat Sam - I expect he will get a happy ending as he has more plot shields than anything else in existance in that universe.

He's nothing next to Jon Snow. Whiney bastard, lord commander, king in the north, part-time wildling, kills a bunch of better men than him, northern bastard championship holder, gets a valyrian steel sword 5 minutes after saying his words, closet targaryan and the most obvious plot armour, cheated death.

Which of the two has gone from dishonoured exile in the North to playing happy families in the warm south with his own little cottage rather than bunkbeds

Although at some point you would have thought his father and brother would show up and kick the living Sh%$t out of him before taking back their Valyrian sword.

But yeah I don;t like Jon either.

It seems to be theme that whenever Dany tries to be nice - bad things happen.

See, I think that Jamie is going to be afraid of Cercei becoming the Mad Queen, but in a twist, for the first time, he isn't ready to kill. But, my theory is Cercei is going to fear the betrayal so fiercely that she's going to jump the gun and kill her last (well, I suppose Qyburn is still loyal) loyal subject preemptively, and for that, her demise will come, and as its about to happen she'll scream out for Jamie to protect her, but he's already gone...

Theory.

There are two more Targaryens.

But it's not John Snow, nor is it Tyron.

Oh no. See, we know that John Snow is Dark of hair. As was Robert Baratheon, who very much loved John's Mum. And as Ned Stark, discovered to his cost - The Seed Is Strong.

And Tyrion? Nah man. He's a Lannister through and through. Got the features. Always pays his debts. Exceptionally clever.

But. Cersei and Jamie? Incest? That's pretty Targaryen. Blonde of hair? That's a Targaryen trait as well. One completely hatstand box of frogs sack of cats bonkers and power crazed? The other actually something of a man of the people, like Aegon?

That theory is pretty old.


In the books at least, when Tywin marries his wife The Mad King Is there because Tywin was hand of the King. And he makes this comment on how in the good old days Lords had a "Lords right." To bed any of their servants wife's before they do. Hinting that he may be planning to bed Tywins wife.


Hence incest twins, although I don't think incest is regarded as a genetic trait, but fantasy settings and all.

It's definitely a family tradition if nowt else.

 welshhoppo wrote:
That theory is pretty old.


In the books at least, when Tywin marries his wife The Mad King Is there because Tywin was hand of the King. And he makes this comment on how in the good old days Lords had a "Lords right." To bed any of their servants wife's before they do. Hinting that he may be planning to bed Tywins wife.

Hence incest twins, although I don't think incest is regarded as a genetic trait, but fantasy settings and all.

It seems to be a bit of theme in the books - Theon and his sister flirt with it.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
That theory is pretty old.


In the books at least, when Tywin marries his wife The Mad King Is there because Tywin was hand of the King. And he makes this comment on how in the good old days Lords had a "Lords right." To bed any of their servants wife's before they do. Hinting that he may be planning to bed Tywins wife.

Hence incest twins, although I don't think incest is regarded as a genetic trait, but fantasy settings and all.

It seems to be a bit of theme in the books - Theon and his sister flirt with it.

It made the "foreign invasion" scene that much more awkward for him

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Theory.

There are two more Targaryens.

But it's not John Snow, nor is it Tyron.

Oh no. See, we know that John Snow is Dark of hair. As was Robert Baratheon, who very much loved John's Mum. And as Ned Stark, discovered to his cost - The Seed Is Strong.

And Tyrion? Nah man. He's a Lannister through and through. Got the features. Always pays his debts. Exceptionally clever.

But. Cersei and Jamie? Incest? That's pretty Targaryen. Blonde of hair? That's a Targaryen trait as well. One completely hatstand box of frogs sack of cats bonkers and power crazed? The other actually something of a man of the people, like Aegon?

It's a fun theory, but it falls away in some places.

I think Robert Baratheon would have known him getting Lyanna pregnant. In fact, we have no idea if they ever did have a relationship in that way - they were betrothed to eachother, but if they ever consummated it? I would have thought that Robert would have known. Also, why would Ned have hidden Jon's parentage if that was the case?

Paying debts isn't a genetic trait - it's a lifestyle. Tyrion, and all the Lannisters, follow it because it's what they live by. Not because of genetics. Incest, likewise, isn't a genetic thing.
I could see Cersei and Jamie being Targaryens, but I'd have thought that Tywin would have known that - whereas his prejudice against Tyrion might be spurred on by that as well. Not to mention the eyes:

I think we can comfortably say at this point that Jon is in fact the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. LOL. And the clues were there from the very beginning. Yes, he has dark hair, but his direwolf had white fur, and was found separate from the rest of the cubs.

Tyrion has one green eye and one black eye, IIRC. And yes, I think his encounter with the dragons last season is setting something up.

Targaryen traits are recessive. Which is why they used to marry in the family.

Robert actually had targaryen blood in him, I think his grandmother was one.


Also, there is another piece of the book here, Lyanna didn't seem to be interested with Robert. He just wanted her because she was something he couldn't have. I believe Eddard comments that he would have gotten bored with her if he had actually caught her.