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Berserkers are absolutely obscene as they get to fight twice per fight phase. It's terrifying to behold a unit of Berserkers charging anything.

 Brutallica wrote:


But a guaranteed disengage from combat without any chance harm isn't right either.

Eitherway in a scenario against Tau its probably versus a castled up foe with kroots and firewarriors screen. And all the heavy hitters, shield drones and commanders with Kyuon reroll spam is right behind safe and snug. I have a hunch that single demon prince is the remenants of an entire army. Atleast thats the usual case against the Tau player in our club in 8th.

Integrate Domination from Total War into your scenarios. Objectives count for points at the end of each turn. Makes for much more interesting battles.

Slave wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
All melee got a buff, really. But IMO the biggest thing I've noticed is that khornate... ANYTHING is now frighteningly effective.

I can attest to this as well.

I played a game with a daemons player, and his Khorne Daemon Prince was an absolute juggernaut. It was hitting on 2s rerolling 1s, wounding on 2s, with 9 attacks, doing 2 damage each, at AP-3. Yikes. It will smash what it gets into CC with.

Not everything in melee got a buff.
Some things got de-buffed, some needed it, some really didn't.

Monstrous Creatures no longer automatically have the ability to ignore all armour, some have no rending value in melee at all.
That's actually good, most of the ones that lost out were long range units anyway.
Tyrannids Monstrous Creatures are actually seeing melee now so it wasn't a relevant loss to them.
Thunderwolf Cavalry lost access to Strength ten attacks, they also lost two inches of mobility.
Wulfen Frost Claws copped a price hike and got debuffed from ap2 to ap-2.
Curse of the Wulfen lost its mobility bonus and only affects a unit once per turn.
Deathwatch Heavy Thunder Hammers are worse than regular Thunder Hammers and cost ten points more.
Thunder Hammer 20ppm, 25ppm for characters, Sx2, ap-3, -1 to weapon skill, replaces one weapon.
Heavy Thunder Hammer 30ppm, can't be taken by characters, S×2, ap-3, -1 to weapon skill, replaces two weapons.
Dreadnoughts gained two inches in mobility but lost access to Drop Pods, Murderfang also lost four attacks.

So, Spacewolves lost God mode and cheese ball wolfen cavalry and wolfen are no longer autotake then? Good. Sounds like they got knowcked down a peg to be below tyranids, the original melee army. Sounds about right to me.

To the O.P., melee is really fun now. Forget the hand wringing. Overwatch isn't nearly as bad as it sounds, falling back units are not that big of a deal (they can't shoot, but their friends can), and is only bad if you charge a single small unit into combat with no support. If you do a proper charge, contact a few units, it will not effect you one bit.

Space Wolves lost God Mode when they lost access to Hammer Hands, Sanctuary and Invisibility.
Just about every Imperial army felt that.
The rest was just overkill.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Drager wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Vanguard Vets have a grand total of one wound and two attacks, they're rarely going to get to attack a multi-wound model and when they do they'll roll a one just for gaks and giggles.
Don't kid yourself, they'll mostly be facing one wound enemies and they're more likely to die to overwatch than get the big six.
Waste of points.

If you aren't getting to attack multi-wound models that is really on you. Vehicles, Monstrous creatures and multi-wound infantry are all very very common. If you play in a meta where that isn't true don't take Vanguard Vets, but also understand that your meta is not normal.

There is no normal meta in 8th yet.
I'm guessing GMC and MC spam was the regular 7th edition meta where you are?
Tau gunlines, Gladius/skyhammer and Bark Star were the big ones in mine.
Thank the luck that 8th completely stuffed two of them over.
Now the big hitters are Ghostkeels bubblewrapped in Drones, Chaos MCs bubblewrapped by Daemons, GSC/Tyrannids and Guard spam. Oh and - for the very short forseeable future - my Deathwatch.
What was the answer? Ditch the close combat gear that I wanted to use, forget the Wolves and naff the bastards with as much Specialised Ammo as I could afford to field.
I might have less models than just about everybody but nothing organic appreciates being focus fired by 2+ to wound shots - even the Tau learned some respect for another shootie army.

Have a few plays and learn for yourself.

ursusmajor wrote:
Git gud sun!

But yeah, we're a month in. It should be obvious by now that trying to play as if this was 7e is just suicidal.

 Lansirill wrote:
I played Tyranids against Adeptus Mechanicus. I went first. He basically got to shoot some overwatch, and maybe two thirds of his army on his first turn. By the second turn I had managed to engage all units but 2 in close combat. My opponent barely even had a chance to play a game. A lot of his stuff was still alive, but it was never going to get to shoot. Honestly, it left a bad taste in my mouth. There are absolutely counters, bubble wrap being the obvious, but geez is everyone going to have to play with 50 bubble wrap chumps? Not everyone wants to deal with a horde.

There are a couple of options for all Imperial players:

Get 3 IG Scout Sentinels. They get an advance move prior to fist turn. This pushes the line of engagement back 9". They are 45 points in their cheapest alignment. Take three units of one, and spread them out so there is no place to DS and hit your main units. They will also take the first assaults, but it will buy your entire army a turn of shooting.

Get Ratlings. They get to place anywhere on the board after all deployment as long as it is 18" away from the enemy. It has the same effect as above (for 35pts per unit), and now you have snipers!

If your friend wants to play pure admech no exceptions, some cheap vanguard units to take the brunt of the assault will probably be necessary. If he is unwilling to do any of these things then he is just going to have a hard time against dedicated assault armies.

Combat is nice in 8th, more tactical.
Getting tanks and vehicles locked into combat isn't nice as it's hard to get out of it, they need more strength to represent their size or at least some snap shooting when falling back.

 Gendo wrote:
Combat is nice in 8th, more tactical.
Getting tanks and vehicles locked into combat isn't nice as it's hard to get out of it, they need more strength to represent their size or at least some snap shooting when falling back.

I dunno, I feel like if you let a vehicle get locked down in close combat then it' your own fault. If you keep your tanks stationary while a unit of hormogaunts surge towards it and don't try to avoid them or intercept them then you'll get no sympathy from me. Even the slowest vehicles have like a 10" move. Maybe you should just deal with the -1 to hit and get out of the way of units specifically designed to move quickly and engage things so that they can't shoot. It's a good trade off. You can either gamble on staying still and hope you shoot them all to death or play it safe and move away, accepting the disadvantages in order to be able to keep shooting.

I also dislike the assumption that units engaged in close combat with tanks are just sitting in front of it poking at the hull. Why would aforementioned unit of hormogaunts line up under the tracks? They'd be jumping and clambering all over it and clawing at hatches and openings. Marines as well would be climbing on top of it to pry open hatches to chuck grenades in or whatever.

Main issue so far seems to be that CC units aren't cheap enough. At least for SM variants. 13 pts for an ASM with 2 attacks or 16 pts with a JP is terrible. Even the VV or DC are just not dishing out enough hurt once they close. I just don't see the point of trying to get into melee when ranged units deal just as much damage if not more per point, and they get the alpha. Trying to get into melee means losing a significant portion of your army first, by then you aren't even guaranteed to win the melee given that your opponent gets to fight back, fall back, fire with their safe units and then fire overwatch again. Any shooty army worth its salt will cover their big shooty units with a hundred models worth of cheap bubblewrap at 2-5 pts per wound and insignificant morale losses. Your only hope against such armies is to cheese the pile in/consolidate mechanics and pray that you can lock their entire army in melee somehow.

sossen wrote:
Main issue so far seems to be that CC units aren't cheap enough. At least for SM variants. 13 pts for an ASM with 2 attacks or 16 pts with a JP is terrible. Even the VV or DC are just not dishing out enough hurt once they close. I just don't see the point of trying to get into melee when ranged units deal just as much damage if not more per point, and they get the alpha. Trying to get into melee means losing a significant portion of your army first, by then you aren't even guaranteed to win the melee given that your opponent gets to fight back, fall back, fire with their safe units and then fire overwatch again. Any shooty army worth its salt will cover their big shooty units with a hundred models worth of cheap bubblewrap at 2-5 pts per wound and insignificant morale losses. Your only hope against such armies is to cheese the pile in/consolidate mechanics and pray that you can lock their entire army in melee somehow.

Wait so you're upset that assault armies are ineffective against bubblewrap?

I'm upset I have to waste points on bubblewrap to be able to do literally anything at all against assault armies!

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

sossen wrote:
Main issue so far seems to be that CC units aren't cheap enough. At least for SM variants. 13 pts for an ASM with 2 attacks or 16 pts with a JP is terrible. Even the VV or DC are just not dishing out enough hurt once they close. I just don't see the point of trying to get into melee when ranged units deal just as much damage if not more per point, and they get the alpha. Trying to get into melee means losing a significant portion of your army first, by then you aren't even guaranteed to win the melee given that your opponent gets to fight back, fall back, fire with their safe units and then fire overwatch again. Any shooty army worth its salt will cover their big shooty units with a hundred models worth of cheap bubblewrap at 2-5 pts per wound and insignificant morale losses. Your only hope against such armies is to cheese the pile in/consolidate mechanics and pray that you can lock their entire army in melee somehow.

Wait so you're upset that assault armies are ineffective against bubblewrap?

I'm upset I have to waste points on bubblewrap to be able to do literally anything at all against assault armies!

You don't have to. There seem to be several options.

1) Use units that don't care about being charged. Namely, units that Fly, most Superheavies, etc. The eldar player in our club is doing quite well with a list that has 2 wave serpents and 2 Shadow Weaver tanks that just survive assault, fall back, and continue to shoot. Tau Suit units or vehicles are another good example.

2) Screen with units like flyers, who both have Fly and can't be assaulted by most things. A couple Valkyries in a Guard list can make themselves a real nuisance blocking up charge lanes, especially if they're transporting something like 4 Bullgryns who are great, hard to remove counter-assault elements.

3) Screen with units that don't give a toss about being denied shooting because they have barely any shooting anyway. See Rhino transports, which you may already be fielding anyway because they protect your troops. This is what I do with my Thousand Sons and Dark Eldar shooty lists.

4) Screen with units that deal the same damage on overwatch as they do shooting because they have Weapons Formerly Known as Templates. The Hellhound is a great example, same as the Heldrake.

All major shooty factions have solutions like this that don't involve taking pure chaff or compulsory melee units if you favor an all-shooting playstyle. The real complaint here is "I can't play precisely the same as I played in the previous edition and enjoy exactly the same level of success" and...yeah, everyone has to figure out how the new edition works.

Sim-Life wrote:

 Gendo wrote:
Combat is nice in 8th, more tactical.
Getting tanks and vehicles locked into combat isn't nice as it's hard to get out of it, they need more strength to represent their size or at least some snap shooting when falling back.

I dunno, I feel like if you let a vehicle get locked down in close combat then it' your own fault. If you keep your tanks stationary while a unit of hormogaunts surge towards it and don't try to avoid them or intercept them then you'll get no sympathy from me. Even the slowest vehicles have like a 10" move. Maybe you should just deal with the -1 to hit and get out of the way of units specifically designed to move quickly and engage things so that they can't shoot. It's a good trade off. You can either gamble on staying still and hope you shoot them all to death or play it safe and move away, accepting the disadvantages in order to be able to keep shooting.

I also dislike the assumption that units engaged in close combat with tanks are just sitting in front of it poking at the hull. Why would aforementioned unit of hormogaunts line up under the tracks? They'd be jumping and clambering all over it and clawing at hatches and openings. Marines as well would be climbing on top of it to pry open hatches to chuck grenades in or whatever.

I was a bit generic, fair enough for tanks, but it's transports I have an issue with (like Razorback/Rhino) as you want to deliver something but now many armies have the capability of charging on turn 1 easily and drop stuff around it.
If I'm mindful enough to not get surrounded I don't see why a vehicle can't fall back and shoot, even at reduced BS, otherwise it's an endless fall back and get charged again.

And IRL example as you mention hormogaunts climbing up, a tank should be able to shoot at a close enemy, maybe not heavy weapons because of the blast being self harming but with my LRC I should be able to shoot the Hurricane bolters and Assault Cannon right? And not something like a Vindicator cannon.
Same in the case of a Rhino, can't see why they guy on top can't shoot its Stormbolter at the advancing foes.

EDIT: The way i see it i rather give away overwatch assuming a fast sudden charge but then being able to shoot whilst in combat, vehicles should be different from infantry.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

sossen wrote:
Main issue so far seems to be that CC units aren't cheap enough. At least for SM variants. 13 pts for an ASM with 2 attacks or 16 pts with a JP is terrible. Even the VV or DC are just not dishing out enough hurt once they close. I just don't see the point of trying to get into melee when ranged units deal just as much damage if not more per point, and they get the alpha. Trying to get into melee means losing a significant portion of your army first, by then you aren't even guaranteed to win the melee given that your opponent gets to fight back, fall back, fire with their safe units and then fire overwatch again. Any shooty army worth its salt will cover their big shooty units with a hundred models worth of cheap bubblewrap at 2-5 pts per wound and insignificant morale losses. Your only hope against such armies is to cheese the pile in/consolidate mechanics and pray that you can lock their entire army in melee somehow.

Wait so you're upset that assault armies are ineffective against bubblewrap?

I'm upset I have to waste points on bubblewrap to be able to do literally anything at all against assault armies!

You don't have to. There seem to be several options.

1) Use units that don't care about being charged. Namely, units that Fly, most Superheavies, etc. The eldar player in our club is doing quite well with a list that has 2 wave serpents and 2 Shadow Weaver tanks that just survive assault, fall back, and continue to shoot. Tau Suit units or vehicles are another good example.

2) Screen with units like flyers, who both have Fly and can't be assaulted by most things. A couple Valkyries in a Guard list can make themselves a real nuisance blocking up charge lanes, especially if they're transporting something like 4 Bullgryns who are great, hard to remove counter-assault elements.

3) Screen with units that don't give a toss about being denied shooting because they have barely any shooting anyway. See Rhino transports, which you may already be fielding anyway because they protect your troops. This is what I do with my Thousand Sons and Dark Eldar shooty lists.

4) Screen with units that deal the same damage on overwatch as they do shooting because they have Weapons Formerly Known as Templates. The Hellhound is a great example, same as the Heldrake.

All major shooty factions have solutions like this that don't involve taking pure chaff or compulsory melee units if you favor an all-shooting playstyle. The real complaint here is "I can't play precisely the same as I played in the previous edition and enjoy exactly the same level of success" and...yeah, everyone has to figure out how the new edition works.

I was being a bit sarcastic. Bubble-wrap is a tried and true solution to the problem of being assaulted, so to say that assault is bad because it has a solution is silly.

That's all.

sorry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
OH! Sorry for the double post, but...

... one thing I'm kind of sad (and have been in every edition of 40k) about that is missing is the ability for tanks to 'scratch eachother's backs'.

In the Korean War, tanks that were swarmed by infantry without adequate antitank weapons to kill them (e.g. hormagaunts, frag-grenade guardsmen in 40k, whatever) could be engaged by friendly tanks firing high-explosive shells and machine-gun bullets. These would fail to penetrate the assaulted tank's armour, but would obviously clear the assaulting infantry away rather rapidly.

Why can't friendly tanks fire high-explosive or small-arms fire shoot at units that are 'locked' in assault with other friendly tanks to represent this 'back-scratching' ability?

I know it would make assault worse and has a whole TON of balance issues but it would be neat to see.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

sossen wrote:
Main issue so far seems to be that CC units aren't cheap enough. At least for SM variants. 13 pts for an ASM with 2 attacks or 16 pts with a JP is terrible. Even the VV or DC are just not dishing out enough hurt once they close. I just don't see the point of trying to get into melee when ranged units deal just as much damage if not more per point, and they get the alpha. Trying to get into melee means losing a significant portion of your army first, by then you aren't even guaranteed to win the melee given that your opponent gets to fight back, fall back, fire with their safe units and then fire overwatch again. Any shooty army worth its salt will cover their big shooty units with a hundred models worth of cheap bubblewrap at 2-5 pts per wound and insignificant morale losses. Your only hope against such armies is to cheese the pile in/consolidate mechanics and pray that you can lock their entire army in melee somehow.

Wait so you're upset that assault armies are ineffective against bubblewrap?

I'm upset I have to waste points on bubblewrap to be able to do literally anything at all against assault armies!

You don't have to. There seem to be several options.

1) Use units that don't care about being charged. Namely, units that Fly, most Superheavies, etc. The eldar player in our club is doing quite well with a list that has 2 wave serpents and 2 Shadow Weaver tanks that just survive assault, fall back, and continue to shoot. Tau Suit units or vehicles are another good example.

2) Screen with units like flyers, who both have Fly and can't be assaulted by most things. A couple Valkyries in a Guard list can make themselves a real nuisance blocking up charge lanes, especially if they're transporting something like 4 Bullgryns who are great, hard to remove counter-assault elements.

3) Screen with units that don't give a toss about being denied shooting because they have barely any shooting anyway. See Rhino transports, which you may already be fielding anyway because they protect your troops. This is what I do with my Thousand Sons and Dark Eldar shooty lists.

4) Screen with units that deal the same damage on overwatch as they do shooting because they have Weapons Formerly Known as Templates. The Hellhound is a great example, same as the Heldrake.

All major shooty factions have solutions like this that don't involve taking pure chaff or compulsory melee units if you favor an all-shooting playstyle. The real complaint here is "I can't play precisely the same as I played in the previous edition and enjoy exactly the same level of success" and...yeah, everyone has to figure out how the new edition works.

I was being a bit sarcastic. Bubble-wrap is a tried and true solution to the problem of being assaulted, so to say that assault is bad because it has a solution is silly.

That's all.

sorry.

Taking a hundred conscripts isn't just a solution to the problem of being assaulted. They're good vs deepstrike ranged units, a great way to hold ground/objectives and bring decent shooting for their price. 100 conscripts costs 360 pts with support staff. Their combined shooting does about 7-8 MEQ wounds per turn without rapid fire, there's almost no way to make your points back by trying to kill them in return. An AC with 3+ BS kills about 2-3 conscripts per turn.

Their "decent shooting" is inferior to the shooting of a tactical squad of the same price, before special weapons. Not exactly impressive.

 Melissia wrote:
Their "decent shooting" is inferior to the shooting of a tactical squad of the same price, before special weapons. Not exactly impressive.

No, you need reroll to hit and wound if you want 30 tac marines to deal almost as many wounds vs MEQ.

sossen wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Their "decent shooting" is inferior to the shooting of a tactical squad of the same price, before special weapons. Not exactly impressive.

No, you need reroll to hit and wound if you want 30 tac marines to deal almost as many wounds vs MEQ.

Ah, you're one of those people that attempts to pretend that conscripts will always get all 50 models in range to do rapid fire every time.

Please. Try playing the real game instead of wallowing in the cesspit of mathhammer.

 Melissia wrote:

sossen wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Their "decent shooting" is inferior to the shooting of a tactical squad of the same price, before special weapons. Not exactly impressive.

No, you need reroll to hit and wound if you want 30 tac marines to deal almost as many wounds vs MEQ.

Ah, you're one of those people that attempts to pretend that conscripts will always get all 50 models in range to do rapid fire every time.

Please. Try playing the real game instead of wallowing in the cesspit of mathhammer.

No, the math is all without rapid fire. You get 2 shots per conscript thanks to orders.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
...As to the topic at hand, melee is alive and well. You just have to realise that your melee weapons will have preferred targets just like ranged weapons do.

...Right tool for the job, and tactical variety are the key with every weapon now. Good luck!

I've only played a few games prior to 8th, my love for the game has always been the modeling and painting. But these statements pretty much sum up my play experience in 8th and the games that I've watched.

You have to pay attention to what shoots before you can get into melee, what is close by that can shoot if this takes extra turns, what this unit you're attacking can do in movement in case it doesn't die turn 1 and then what support you should be bringing along to make sure your charge and subsequent melee works out in your favor. Melee just feels more tactical in nature to me. And some players seem to be struggling with the idea that their targets aren't dying in the first round of melee and that the target then has the chance to pull away to a better tactical position and shoot back at them.

The game has changed a little. Change with it, maybe.

sossen wrote:
No, the math is all without rapid fire. You get 2 shots per conscript thanks to orders.

If you're using conscripts to block assault or to bubblewrap, even getting all fifty to fire at max range is iffy. But still not impressed. Two shots per conscript, hitting 1/3rd of the time, wounding 1/3rd of the time, getting through armor only on 1s (assuming cover, because it's trivially easy for marines to find cover compared to a 50 man conscript squad). Result? Less than two wounds on average for each 100 shots. Is killing a single tactical per round supposed to be impressive again? And that's WITH an Order, too! Really, all you're doing there is wasting an order that could be better spent elsewhere.

A five-man tactical squad with plasma and combiplasma does better against MEQ than this, without wasting any precious resources like Orders or Command Points. Hell you could even toss in a barebones Captain to let the squad reroll 1s making you able to near-safely use overcharge-- making them even better against MEQ-- and it'd cost about as much as 50-man conscript squad iwth a platoon leader to give orders. But be far more effective against MEQ.

Which is why you don't take conscripts to kill MEQ, and if you do, you're just gonna get wrecked. They won't kill much of anything for that matter without a lot of luck or your opponent making bad decisions. You take them as meat shields.

 Melissia wrote:

sossen wrote:
No, the math is all without rapid fire. You get 2 shots per conscript thanks to orders.

If you're using conscripts to block assault or to bubblewrap, even getting all fifty to fire at max range is iffy. But still not impressed. Two shots per conscript, hitting 1/3rd of the time, wounding 1/3rd of the time, getting through armor only on 1s (assuming cover, because it's trivially easy for marines to find cover compared to a 50 man conscript squad). Result? Less than two wounds on average for each 100 shots. Is killing a single tactical per round supposed to be impressive again? And that's WITH an Order, too! Really, all you're doing there is wasting an order that could be better spent elsewhere.

A five-man tactical squad with plasma and combiplasma does better against MEQ than this, without wasting any precious resources like Orders or Command Points. Hell you could even toss in a barebones Captain and let them reroll 1s making you able to near-safely use overcharge.

So, you're tweaking the math and variables to create an extremely unfavorable situation for the conscripts, and a perfect situation for the marines player.

Fact of the matter is AM is absolutely dominating right now, regardless of theorycraft, and space marines aren't. Conscripts are a big part of that. Their purpose isn't to deal insane damage, it's to provide an impassable wall to get to the tanks which are ripping things up without requiring any LOS, firing at near marine accuracy for a tiny pittance of points per tank.

 Marmatag wrote:
So, you're tweaking the math and variables to create an extremely unfavorable situation for the conscripts, and a perfect situation for the marines player.

No, I'm not. Actually I'm giving Conscripts a huge advantage by assuming they can all fire.

I got a better question-- why are you assuming Marine players don't use cover? Is it because you think Marine players lack skill?

 Marmatag wrote:
Fact of the matter is AM is absolutely dominating right now, regardless of theorycraft, and space marines aren't.

Many varieties of Space Marines are actually doing quite well right now (most notably, Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Thousand Sons, and World Eaters). Generic marines are being hit hard, but that's because in the current index, a good portion of marine power is in their chapter-specific character buffs-- a fact which I would certainly argue is a bad situation for Marines to be in.

 Melissia wrote:

sossen wrote:
No, the math is all without rapid fire. You get 2 shots per conscript thanks to orders.

If you're using conscripts to block assault or to bubblewrap, even getting all fifty to fire at max range is iffy. But still not impressed. Two shots per conscript, hitting 1/3rd of the time, wounding 1/3rd of the time, getting through armor only on 1s (assuming cover, because it's trivially easy for marines to find cover compared to a 50 man conscript squad). Result? Less than two wounds on average for each 100 shots. Is killing a single tactical per round supposed to be impressive again? And that's WITH an Order, too. Really, all you're doing there is wasting an order that could be better spent elsewhere.

If an order kills a single tac marine then it has almost earned back its initial cost. The commander only costs 30 pts and gives out two orders to two units of 50 conscripts.

I never said that it was impressive, I said that it was decent. Which it clearly is, 390 pts put into 30 tac marines without support deal less wounds to MEQ (with or without cover) than 50 of these conscripts while they have the rapid fire 2 order, that is to say half of the conscripts in the 360 pt combo deal more damage than 390 pts of tac marines with bolters. Not that they are the golden standard of shooting, but it's telling.

sossen wrote:
I never said that it was impressive, I said that it was decent. Which it clearly is, 390 pts put into 30 tac marines without support deal less wounds to MEQ

That's not even close to being true. I can spend barely over half as many points on tacticals as you did on conscripts+commander and yet STILL deal as much or more damage per round to MEQ.

Melissia wrote:Their "decent shooting" is inferior to the shooting of a tactical squad of the same price, before special weapons. Not exactly impressive.

Remember that we are discussing this, not the best shooting that tac marines can offer vs MEQ.

Melissia wrote:A five-man tactical squad with plasma and combiplasma does better against MEQ than this, without wasting any precious resources like Orders or Command Points. Hell you could even toss in a barebones Captain to let the squad reroll 1s making you able to near-safely use overcharge-- making them even better against MEQ-- and it'd cost about as much as 50-man conscript squad iwth a platoon leader to give orders. But be far more effective against MEQ.

Melissia wrote:That's not even close to being true. I can spend barely over half as many points on tacticals as you did on conscripts+commander and yet STILL deal more damage per round to MEQ.

What isn't true about it? I specified 30 tac marines. Don't move the goalpost, we're talking about tac marines with bolters. I said decent shooting, not good or incredible shooting.

sossen wrote:

Melissia wrote:Their "decent shooting" is inferior to the shooting of a tactical squad of the same price, before special weapons. Not exactly impressive.

Remember that we are discussing this, not the best shooting that tac marines can offer vs MEQ.

Melissia wrote:A five-man tactical squad with plasma and combiplasma does better against MEQ than this, without wasting any precious resources like Orders or Command Points. Hell you could even toss in a barebones Captain to let the squad reroll 1s making you able to near-safely use overcharge-- making them even better against MEQ-- and it'd cost about as much as 50-man conscript squad iwth a platoon leader to give orders. But be far more effective against MEQ.

Melissia wrote:That's not even close to being true. I can spend barely over half as many points on tacticals as you did on conscripts+commander and yet STILL deal more damage per round to MEQ.

What isn't true about it? I specified 30 tac marines. Don't move the goalpost, we're talking about tac marines with bolters. I said decent shooting, not good or incredible shooting.

Why would tacticals never take a special weapon? That's literally what tactical marine squads do that Conscripts don't.

Of course the tacticals lose when deliberately built to lose...

In fact, I think 1 tactical has better shooting with just his boltgun than a baneblade does if the Baneblade doesn't shoot its guns ever.

Discuss.

Why are we even discussing shooting in a close combat thread? 100 Conscripts overwatch my charging Berzerkers, kill an average of 7, then I kill 30-35 conscripts with the remaining models with both fight phase attacks. Not to mention if I do this particular thing I am also shooting my Kharybdis and charging it as well, potentially soaking up the Conscript overwatch, then keep the Berzerkers within range of the Dark Apostle for full rerolls, then take double lightning claws why not on the champ, you're looking at the entire 100 blob being wiped out in one turn exposing the tanks inside. I guess we also have to mention the Sorcerer with Jump Pack giving Warp Time and Prec to the Berzerkers because why not ensure the absolute complete and utter destruction of anything you charge. Meanwhile the rest of my fast moving army is charging up the board at full speed: Deamon Princes and Juggerlords and Blood Slaughterers and Helbrutes and Chaos Spawn and whatever else I want.

Melee in 8th is fantastic and I love it!

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

sossen wrote:

Melissia wrote:Their "decent shooting" is inferior to the shooting of a tactical squad of the same price, before special weapons. Not exactly impressive.

Remember that we are discussing this, not the best shooting that tac marines can offer vs MEQ.

Melissia wrote:A five-man tactical squad with plasma and combiplasma does better against MEQ than this, without wasting any precious resources like Orders or Command Points. Hell you could even toss in a barebones Captain to let the squad reroll 1s making you able to near-safely use overcharge-- making them even better against MEQ-- and it'd cost about as much as 50-man conscript squad iwth a platoon leader to give orders. But be far more effective against MEQ.

Melissia wrote:That's not even close to being true. I can spend barely over half as many points on tacticals as you did on conscripts+commander and yet STILL deal more damage per round to MEQ.

What isn't true about it? I specified 30 tac marines. Don't move the goalpost, we're talking about tac marines with bolters. I said decent shooting, not good or incredible shooting.

Why would tacticals never take a special weapon? That's literally what tactical marine squads do that Conscripts don't.

Of course the tacticals lose when deliberately built to lose...

In fact, I think 1 tactical has better shooting with just his boltgun than a baneblade does if the Baneblade doesn't shoot its guns ever.

Discuss.

Hey man, if we can't use unlikely to the point of comedy situations to claim that 8th is a horrible ruleset, then the terrorists win. Remember: You only need two ten man units of gretchin to charge from either side of a baneblade, get a long enough charge to wrap themselves around the entirety of its length on either side and then not lose enough models to make a hole for it to escape through FOR GRETCHIN TO STOP A BANEBLADE FROM FALLING BACK. I know! I did it myself when playing against myself on vassal!

the_scotsman wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Why would tacticals never take a special weapon? That's literally what tactical marine squads do that Conscripts don't.

Of course the tacticals lose when deliberately built to lose...

In fact, I think 1 tactical has better shooting with just his boltgun than a baneblade does if the Baneblade doesn't shoot its guns ever.

Discuss.

Hey man, if we can't use unlikely to the point of comedy situations to claim that 8th is a horrible ruleset, then the terrorists win. Remember: You only need two ten man units of gretchin to charge from either side of a baneblade, get a long enough charge to wrap themselves around the entirety of its length on either side and then not lose enough models to make a hole for it to escape through FOR GRETCHIN TO STOP A BANEBLADE FROM FALLING BACK. I know! I did it myself when playing against myself on vassal!

It's funny that you chose a Baneblade given that it actually wants to stay in melee. It gets to shoot out of melee, opponents don't get to shoot at it while it is in melee.

I checked the math on decked out tac marine squads, turns out that conscript fire competes well with the best MEQ options.

Point is still that you don't need to face melee armies to get value from your conscripts. Which is why it's not just a bubblewrap unit, and following on that point is why I made my post in the first place - it is very difficult for CC SM armies to deal with these types of hordes efficiently.

sossen wrote:
I checked the math on decked out tac marine squads, turns out that conscript fire competes well with the best MEQ options.

No you didn't.