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I don't get the whole "well you won't bring every gun to bear" argument against Conscripts in an edition where no AOEs means you can run them on a WHFB movement tray with relatively little risk.

If you're using a movement tray, how are you bubble wrapping them or spreading them out to make the best use of their ability to stop assualt units from reaching your tanks or artillery?

And if you don't have expensive tanks or artillery that the opponent wants to target, why wouldn't the opponent just dump all their fire and assaults relentlessly in to your conscripts and turn them in to pink mist?

FFS, even basic unupgraded assault marines pose a threat to conscripts in assault.

Melissia wrote:

sossen wrote:
I checked the math on decked out tac marine squads, turns out that conscript fire competes well with the best MEQ options.

No you didn't.

http://www.dice-hammer.com/#!/damage

Try it yourself, conscripts get 100 rapid fire 2 lasguns. Even without bringing all their guns to bear they compete well.

Melissia wrote:If you're using a movement tray, how are you bubble wrapping them or spreading them out to make the best use of their ability to stop assualt units from reaching your tanks or artillery?

And if you don't have expensive tanks or artillery that the opponent wants to target, why wouldn't the opponent just dump all their fire and assaults relentlessly in to your conscripts and turn them in to pink mist?

We're talking about different scenarios here. If you face a ranged army you might want to use your conscripts differently. And no one has said that conscript only is the way to go, it's only meant to be a fraction of your army.

sossen wrote:
I checked the math on decked out tac marine squads, turns out that conscript fire competes well with the best MEQ options.

What the feth am I reading? In what universe will an equal number of points unit of Conscripts deal equal damage to a unit of TAC? And against what target are they firing upon that this comes out equal? Did you account for supporting units? Rerolls on the special weapons? What special weapons were used? This is an incredibly lazy statement thrown out to try and make a point that doesn't exist.

I decided to see what this actually looked like. A full kitted out unit of CSM with double plasma gun and combi-plasma on the champ is 171 points. A 171 point equivalent of conscripts is 57 models split between two units. If all 10 marines are inside rapid fire range, something pretty easy to do with 10 bodies, the damage against MEQ is 4.33. Meanwhile if all 57 conscripts are inside rapid fire rage, something that is not as easy to do and will most likely never happen, they average against MEQ 4.22 damage. So in this fantasy world where conscripts are piled on top of one another yes they deal near equal damage to 10 marines who are far easier to move around the board against MEQ. Against anything tougher or with a better save, conscripts damage fall off spectacularly while marines stay consistent.

Basically: shooting from constricts is a nice thing to do when something is in range because you might put a wound or two on something, but is not the reason you take conscripts and any discussion about their damage output in shooting (or god forbid melee) is completely missing the point of the unit. This thread should be focusing on the overwatch potential and melee counters to conscript blobs, not some absurd idea that they will deal equal damage to a TAC squad.

 andysonic1 wrote:

sossen wrote:
I checked the math on decked out tac marine squads, turns out that conscript fire competes well with the best MEQ options.

What the feth am I reading? In what universe will an equal number of points unit of Conscripts deal equal damage to a unit of TAC? And against what target are they firing upon that this comes out equal? Did you account for supporting units? Rerolls on the special weapons? What special weapons were used? This is an incredibly lazy statement thrown out to try and make a point that doesn't exist.

We're talking about 100 conscripts in 2 squads with 1 Commissar and 1 Company Commander for 360 pts. They receive the FRFSRF order before they fire. They deal 7-8 wounds vs MEQ, assuming no rapid fire.

Compare that to 20 tac marines with 4 plasma guns and 4 combi-plasma guns for 372 pts. They deal about 5 wounds to MEQ or about 9 if the MEQ have multiple wounds, assuming no rapid fire and overcharge.

Vs MEQ in cover they are almost exactly equal at 3-4 wounds.

sossen wrote:

Melissia wrote:

sossen wrote:
I checked the math on decked out tac marine squads, turns out that conscript fire competes well with the best MEQ options.

No you didn't.

http://www.dice-hammer.com/#!/damage

Try it yourself, conscripts get 100 rapid fire 2 lasguns. Even without bringing all their guns to bear they compete well.

Even without?

It can be a challenge to get all ten models in tac squad into rapid fire range.

50? If you're even shooting with all 50 models, your opponent might be a potato dressed up as a human.

sossen wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Why would tacticals never take a special weapon? That's literally what tactical marine squads do that Conscripts don't.

Of course the tacticals lose when deliberately built to lose...

In fact, I think 1 tactical has better shooting with just his boltgun than a baneblade does if the Baneblade doesn't shoot its guns ever.

Discuss.

Hey man, if we can't use unlikely to the point of comedy situations to claim that 8th is a horrible ruleset, then the terrorists win. Remember: You only need two ten man units of gretchin to charge from either side of a baneblade, get a long enough charge to wrap themselves around the entirety of its length on either side and then not lose enough models to make a hole for it to escape through FOR GRETCHIN TO STOP A BANEBLADE FROM FALLING BACK. I know! I did it myself when playing against myself on vassal!

It's funny that you chose a Baneblade given that it actually wants to stay in melee. It gets to shoot out of melee, opponents don't get to shoot at it while it is in melee.

I checked the math on decked out tac marine squads, turns out that conscript fire competes well with the best MEQ options.

Point is still that you don't need to face melee armies to get value from your conscripts. Which is why it's not just a bubblewrap unit, and following on that point is why I made my post in the first place - it is very difficult for CC SM armies to deal with these types of hordes efficiently.

Not arguing about that, or that Conscripts are currently a little too strong. I know most of the suggestions for nerfs are really basic stuff, but if it were me I'd require a LD check to follow an order (still wastes the order if you fail).

The biggest problem with them honestly is the fact that the weapons that are supposed to be used to kill them just aren't points efficient at doing so. Forget "Are they better than tactical marines at shooting", try "what do I take to clear out conscripts?" We're using 360 points as our "Conscripts plus buffers" standard right? What would I take if I, playing marines, wanted to carve them up lickity-split so I could assault stuff they're standing in front of?

Thunderfire cannons, maybe? 360 gets me about 5 of those (too lazy to comb through and figure out what the stupid servo arms cost, exact math is like 5.875 with the base cost so I'll round down to 5.)

Those now kill 18 conscripts per turn, plus 1 from the commissar. Oof. Maybe Whirlwinds? You get 5 of those (rounding up this time) and they kill 20 with the commissar. Heavy Bolter Devastators get 18. Hey, maybe morale is the problem here, what if we took some snipers to kill the commissar, then used the remainder of the points on 2 Whirlwinds? With morale they kill only 9 of the conscripts.

The latter is probably the best option, but unfortunately even if you do THAT your opponent is just going to spend 2cp to autopass the morale test.

This is the fundamental issue with bubblewrap in 8th: Not that a hard-counter to a lot of melee stuff exists, but that there's no way to bring a counter to get rid of that strategy, which makes it dominant. You can absolutely blow away imperial knights if you take equal points of lascannon devastators. You can slaughter lascannon devastators with equal points of plasma scions. You can wipe the floor with plasma scions with ork boyz. But the weapons that were intended to be taken to remove infantry by the bucketload are now highly ineffective at doing so. a 7-point flamer does not kill over 7 points of conscripts, and the flamer is supposed to be the anti light infantry version of the melta gun: hyper close ranged, but hyper efficient if you get into that range band and use it.

Close combat is so much better this edition. Consistently, I engage in close combat in Turn 1. The whole game sequence has sped up. Where before I had to wait until turn 2 or 3 to get into combat and endure turns of shooting, 8th Ed. has so many ways to get right into the action - from increased speed on units, to new abilities to double-move or charge from deepstrike. It's excellent!

 andysonic1 wrote:
Basically: shooting from constricts is a nice thing to do when something is in range because you might put a wound or two on something, but is not the reason you take conscripts and any discussion about their damage output in shooting (or god forbid melee) is completely missing the point of the unit. This thread should be focusing on the overwatch potential and melee counters to conscript blobs, not some absurd idea that they will deal equal damage to a TAC squad.

I never said that the shooting was the point of the unit, only that using conscript bubblewrap isn't solely about anti-assault - they can be effective units against ranged armies as well given that they have "decent shooting". This was in response to someone who claimed that bubblewrap was the counter to assault, I pointed out that they are certainly competent in other regards than as wounds that you have to assault past. Which is why assault armies are extra screwed by such units, since they both get to shoot and block your advance into the opponent's actual gunline.

Close combat is substantially deeper, stronger, and adds depth to the game without sacrificing time and difficulty.

Some cool differences:
As mentioned people can "walk away" from combat, but what most forget is you have to get 1 inch away, and if your unit cannot fly then by placing your assault models correctly they cannot get away if you surround them intelligently.

Back and forth selection of units and interrupting command points makes selecting, target priority, and game player interactions are all much much higher. One player doesn't just sit there anymore.

Vehicles are actually effective in combat, they can interrupt and provide a strategic opportunity that was not there in 7th.

Overwatch is not overcome by a million "special" rules in 7th.

Fliers are no longer immune to assault.

Pistols got a huge buff by being able to shoot at units in combat.

Striking first in CC when charging is a MASSIVE boost to the effectiveness of dedicated CC armies like orks, nids, etc.

So much faster without worrying about rules, assault grenade nonsense, overwatch modifyers, is it a vehicle or not, etc.

You can get into combat in multiple ways, but none of them are broken. (Most require you to be 9 inches away)

sossen wrote:
Try it yourself, conscripts get 100 rapid fire 2 lasguns.

That chart's wrong, btw. All the charts I've seen, and the WH-Community site, say S3 wounds T4 on a 5+, not a 4+ (the only time you get a 4+ on a to-wound roll is when S=T).

Which means 2*50 conscripts firing a total of 100 shots at a single tactical squad in cover would cause less than two wounds per round, for a total cost of 330 points, and take on average three to five turns to wipe out a single squad of a unit that's generally considered weak and expendable, which costs about a fifth of its points,

Again, is this supposed to be impressive to me? I mean, even equal points of tacticals can do better than that. In fact, I'll demonstrate:

9 boltguns, 3 heavy bolters, 3 combiplasmas on 3 5-man tactical squads, firing at a tactical squad using cover to boost its save to 2+ (as tactical squads should be doing, it's trivial to give a cover bonus to a 5-man squad).
9 BGs: 9 shots, 6 hits, 3 wounds, 0.5 unsaved.
3 HBs: 9 shots, 6 hits, 4 wounds, 1.33 unsaved.
2 PGs: 2 shots, 1&1/3rd hits, 0.89 wounds, 0.3 unsaved.
Total unsaved wounds: 2.13 wounds, or about 1/3rd of a wounds more per turn than your 300 points of conscripts and commanders. And this in spite of being considered a trio of units generally considered to have worthless levels of firepower by a lot of Marine players. This trio of 5-man squads probably would actually do more damage than this, because they'd be launching those 9 heavy bolter shots from longer away than 24", and they could actually be stronger while benefiting from marine character buff auras.

Conscript shooting is really not impressive. So can we get back on topic, and away from your FETHING constant topic-derailing rants about conscripts?

I still will never understand why everyone assumes conscripts get to auto-fallback, it isn't that hard to lock a unit in combat.

I also love that a bubble wrap conscript squad always get to shoot at full effectiveness. Which is a large assumption if they are spread out to defend other things.

 Melissia wrote:

sossen wrote:
Try it yourself, conscripts get 100 rapid fire 2 lasguns.

Which means 2*50 conscripts firing a total of 100 shots at a single tactical squad in cover would cause less than two wounds per round, for a total cost of 320 points, and take on average three to four turns to wipe out a single squad of a unit that's generally considered weak and expendable, which costs about a fifth of its points,

They fire 2 shots each at 24'' meaning 200 shots. This is enabled by the company commander giving them the order FRFSRF.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breng77 wrote:
I still will never understand why everyone assumes conscripts get to auto-fallback, it isn't that hard to lock a unit in combat.

I also love that a bubble wrap conscript squad always get to shoot at full effectiveness. Which is a large assumption if they are spread out to defend other things.

If you are using them as bubblewrap against a melee army then you probably don't care that much about the efficiency of their fire, the point of showing their maximum potential while shooting is to demonstrate that they can be reasonably effective units vs ranged armies as well.

sossen wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

sossen wrote:
Try it yourself, conscripts get 100 rapid fire 2 lasguns.

Which means 2*50 conscripts firing a total of 100 shots at a single tactical squad in cover would cause less than two wounds per round, for a total cost of 320 points, and take on average three to four turns to wipe out a single squad of a unit that's generally considered weak and expendable, which costs about a fifth of its points,

They fire 2 shots each at 24'' meaning 200 shots.

Even doubling the result, that's barely 3 wounds against a single tactical squad for 330 points. Assuming EVERYTHING goes right and you can bring all of that 330 points' firepower down on the tactical squad, you're marginally marginally doing more damage than me randomly slapping weapons on a trio of completely unsupported tactical marines. Hell, just have a basic captain stand nearby for rerolls (and he can benefit other units with this aura too, like devastators, so there's no reason not to), and on average those tacticals now do the same amount of damage as you got by doubling the number of conscript shots. And this is hardly the most viable tactical build out there.

tl;dr: stop derailing every thread you come to by ranting about conscripts. The only way you make them as OP as you make them out to be is literally by giving conscripts every advantage and assuming your opponent is an idiot.

I can't believe there are still people trying to insist conscripts aren't good...

Arachnofiend wrote:
I can't believe there are still people trying to insist conscripts aren't good...

Oh look a strawman argument. No one is arguing that conscripts aren't good at what they do-- be meatshields. Learn to read.

Arachnofiend wrote:
I can't believe there are still people trying to insist conscripts aren't good...

Conscripts are fantastic at what they do. Which is die slowly enough that the rest of the army can accomplish a thing.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:
I can't believe there are still people trying to insist conscripts aren't good...

Conscripts are fantastic at what they do. Which is die slowly enough that the rest of the army can accomplish a thing.

Which is why they are conscripts in the first place...

R.I.P

Close combat in 8th edition is awesome. It is not as decisive as it was in 7th, but it is far easier to get into and far easier to get out of. And the fight phase actually requires some player agency rather than just being an accounting and dice rolling phase.

And yes, conscripts make great meatshields. On top of that they spit out massive amounts of shooting damage, can be made immune to morale, has an enormous amount of wounds, and they can fall back and shoot in the same turn. They are quite possibly the best infantry unit in the game right now.

Conscripts don't spit out "massive amounts of shooting damage". Even when you buff them with a commander, they barely match what an equal amount of points in tacticals can manage. Tacticals. The squad almost every marine player seems to love to hate as the weakest troops choice.

Their upper limit is forcing ~22 saves on T5 and lower inside 12". That's pretty terrifying, actually. Even 11 saves at 24" isn't too shabby. That's assuming no access to rerolls of any kind. The key is playing around them so they can quadratap your units. You are also taking a quarter of this damage when you charge them. It sucks having to take 5-6 saves on a charge lol.

 Melissia wrote:
Conscripts don't spit out "massive amounts of shooting damage". Even when you buff them with a commander, they barely match what an equal amount of points in tacticals can manage. Tacticals. The squad almost every marine player seems to love to hate as the weakest troops choice.

They are pretty much equal to tac-marines against T4 and a slightly better against T3 and T5. And that is pretty good for a unit that is also a great meatshield, is probably the best objective camper in the game, has a punishing overwatch, and can fall back and shoot like jump-infantry. I don't think conscripts break the game, but I think they are extremely good. Their only weakness seems to be vulnerability to sniping of the commissar and the sheer effort of painting 100 models for a 300 point unit.

Tac marines do have a chance of getting cover, which these guys won't until they are crippled as a unit.

What I originally wanted to discuss was how to deal with horde units like conscripts, ork boyz or nids with melee-focused SM armies like BA. I really don't want to throw 20 pt DC models at them, it seems unlikely that they will be making their points back that way. I can't find any efficient answer to hordes in the SM list, unless stormraven spam counts.

You can't. At least, not with BA. I've already run all the numbers. The conscripts have to be left for last and played around. Because all your efforts there are wasted.

Have you tried with transports? The trick is to charge with as much as possible, while not spending any time inside his 12". That is difficult. You need to cripple them on your charge, that is also difficult. Orks can pull it off, because 30 boyz will delete 50 conscripts. But it is not easy, and a clever guard player will leave at least four inches between screens so you cannot consolidate into the next unit.

Sniping the commissar also works wonders.

Bizarrely enough it seems like charging rhinos into enemy units is one of the most effective ways to hamper them. Forcing them to fight it in melee or fall back is pretty silly but effective. Plus it's almost necessary in order to tank the overwatch from Kastelan Robots, multiple Tau units etc which will otherwise kill multiple DC.

sossen wrote:
Bizarrely enough it seems like charging rhinos into enemy units is one of the most effective ways to hamper them. Forcing them to fight it in melee or fall back is pretty silly but effective. Plus it's almost necessary in order to tank the overwatch from Kastelan Robots, multiple Tau units etc which will otherwise kill multiple DC.

Yes. But conscripts can fall back and shoot. Crisis suits and waveserpents can do the same.

pismakron wrote:

sossen wrote:
Bizarrely enough it seems like charging rhinos into enemy units is one of the most effective ways to hamper them. Forcing them to fight it in melee or fall back is pretty silly but effective. Plus it's almost necessary in order to tank the overwatch from Kastelan Robots, multiple Tau units etc which will otherwise kill multiple DC.

Yes. But conscripts can fall back and shoot. Crisis suits and waveserpents can do the same.

Yeah but shoot at what? Charge the Rhinos in sideways, create LOS blocking walls of metal so your units can move without being shot at. Only one unit of guard can be told to get up, and units with fly hopping over your Rhinos will be cut off from the rest of their army.

The important bit for me is that tbe Rhino takes the overwatch. Then you just throw whatever at the conscripts. Sure they can fall back, but then what? Kill a couple foot troopers? Oh, heaven help us and lawd have mercy. . .