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Not Online!!! wrote:

Niiru wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
No, you can't. You can argue that AM improves GK, you can't argue GK improves anything, except highly-situational anti-Daemon ability that they always have to pay for.

GK 'Smite' is literally the weakest in the game. Sure, they get a lot of it, but it's less than half as effective as regular Smite and it's another (bad) ability that they always have to pay for.

Three GK Terminator Squads will deal, on average, less than 3MW per phase with their version of Smite. Three Malefic Lords, for example, will average nearly 5.5 with real Smite.

A less silly comparison would be Malefic Lord vs Strike Squads.
The strike squads cost about 20 points more, but you get 1 more wound, 2 more attacks, way way WAY more shooting (which more than makes up for the smite ability), better psychic power choices, better WS, better BS, and the ability to deep strike.

I agree, the Malefic Lord is probably among the best units available for R&H. It's also terrible and overpriced. For the points, a strike squad is just better defensively and offensively and tactically. All the Lord has going for it is that it's a character and it fills a HQ slot.

And that's talking about a strike squad, which is basically an expensive tactical squad, and everyone knows tac squads are in a bad place right now. Which shows just how garbage the lord is now. (At 40 points it was ok, a decent choice. At 80 points, it's... well, nobody plays R&H anymore).

First off: no the malefic was not fair at 40 pts with double smite.
Secondly malefic lords were used with brimstone cancer at the start of 8th. That is ONE unit and makes not for an R&H army.

Double smite? You mean, single smite, right? Because he can only cast it once.

And with a maximum of 3 malefic lords in an army, getting 3 smites for 120 points is... good. Not crazy, just good.

I'd agree that it's a little cheap, upping him to 60 points would have just made him good but pricey. At 80 points he's just expensive.

Another in-codex comparison - You can get a psyker coven for 100 points. Which gets you the same smite ability, but you get 15 wounds instead of 4.

Another Imperial comparison - Primaris Psyker. Basically identical to a Malefic Lord, except that it costs 40 points (which is apparently fine for IG, and too cheap for R&H). Sure the Malefic had the weird ability to get strong in melee, but I don't think anyone really cared about that. It's certainly too unreliable to be worth a 40 point bump.

Nope i meant double smite. Since good old warpflux does exist, which is a anti vehicle smite that can still be used against infantry targets.

Yes... and it's even not too bad compared to smite against vehicles. But he can only cast one power per turn, so even if you gave him both smites he can't use them both.

Edit: Unless there's been an errata or something I've missed, which happens cos 40k is currently a bit of a rules mess when it comes to bookkeeping. If you can cast two powers a turn, then 80 points would be less overpriced than I initially thought. I still would say 60 points is closer to the mark. But as far as I can see, Malefics only cast once per turn, so 80 points is a rip off.

I couldn't remember the name of GK Tac Squads and given that I was only comparing Smite versions the fact that Strikes can shoot better and live longer is neither here nor there.

At no point did I argue that MLs are a better unit than GKTs, just that random naughty humans are more powerful psykers than GKs. You've really got to stop arguing things I haven't said.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
I couldn't remember the name of GK Tac Squads and given that I was only comparing Smite versions the fact that Strikes can shoot better and live longer is neither here nor there.

At no point did I argue that MLs are a better unit than GKTs, just that random naughty humans are more powerful psykers than GKs. You've really got to stop arguing things I haven't said.

Random naughty humans *who are dedicated to the chaos gods and act as a conduit of the powers of chaos and are therefore dedicated psykers* are marginally better psykers than bog standard grey knight flunkies. But the Grey Knights are still much better value for their points in every metric.

But again, the actual comparison should be between Malefic Lords (80 points) and Primaris Psykers (40 points). Functionally identical units, Primaris are half the points, and have the IG codex to back them up.

The only units in the R&H codex that are worth their points are the Marauders, and -maybe- the Mortar Teams. (They're bad, but at least they're cheap and bad). Everything else may as well not exist.

Which is lucky, because at the moment none of the other units do exist! (Neither do marauders, but still).

Niiru wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
I couldn't remember the name of GK Tac Squads and given that I was only comparing Smite versions the fact that Strikes can shoot better and live longer is neither here nor there.

At no point did I argue that MLs are a better unit than GKTs, just that random naughty humans are more powerful psykers than GKs. You've really got to stop arguing things I haven't said.

Random naughty humans *who are dedicated to the chaos gods and act as a conduit of the powers of chaos and are therefore dedicated psykers* are marginally better psykers than bog standard grey knight flunkies. But the Grey Knights are still much better value for their points in every metric.

But again, the actual comparison should be between Malefic Lords (80 points) and Primaris Psykers (40 points). Functionally identical units, Primaris are half the points, and have the IG codex to back them up.

The only units in the R&H codex that are worth their points are the Marauders, and -maybe- the Mortar Teams. (They're bad, but at least they're cheap and bad). Everything else may as well not exist.

Which is lucky, because at the moment none of the other units do exist! (Neither do marauders, but still).

Diciples, command squads and direct copies from AM codex are worth their points imho but only just and not at competitive levels nor Is it enough to make the army anything but the lowest tier their is.
But we all need to email gw as much as possible to get any changes to happen.

Niiru wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
I couldn't remember the name of GK Tac Squads and given that I was only comparing Smite versions the fact that Strikes can shoot better and live longer is neither here nor there.

At no point did I argue that MLs are a better unit than GKTs, just that random naughty humans are more powerful psykers than GKs. You've really got to stop arguing things I haven't said.

Random naughty humans *who are dedicated to the chaos gods and act as a conduit of the powers of chaos and are therefore dedicated psykers* are marginally better psykers than bog standard grey knight flunkies. But the Grey Knights are still much better value for their points in every metric.

But again, the actual comparison should be between Malefic Lords (80 points) and Primaris Psykers (40 points). Functionally identical units, Primaris are half the points, and have the IG codex to back them up.

The only units in the R&H codex that are worth their points are the Marauders, and -maybe- the Mortar Teams. (They're bad, but at least they're cheap and bad). Everything else may as well not exist.

Which is lucky, because at the moment none of the other units do exist! (Neither do marauders, but still).

"Maybee mortar teams" --> R&H Mortar teams are about as broken as mortars get. That said, mortar teams without hw are 3ppm so 25% cheaper then your regular militia dude. See the irony, secondly mortars in general are too cheap at 5pts a piece, beeing allowed to field 6 in one heavy support squad is nigh memeworthy. The average renegade commander at 25pts is about as good as a platoon commander at 30 , except for the lack of orders. Marauders are one of those units that actually get gak done on their own and survive alot of stuff thrown at them, albeit we need to mention the fact that a 6ppm a near TAC/CSM profile with an always on -1 to hit and +2 on saves for when the unit is in cover is a special kind of broken in the scalling. (just like Kabalites are but that is another discussion)

Not Online!!! wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
I couldn't remember the name of GK Tac Squads and given that I was only comparing Smite versions the fact that Strikes can shoot better and live longer is neither here nor there.

At no point did I argue that MLs are a better unit than GKTs, just that random naughty humans are more powerful psykers than GKs. You've really got to stop arguing things I haven't said.

Random naughty humans *who are dedicated to the chaos gods and act as a conduit of the powers of chaos and are therefore dedicated psykers* are marginally better psykers than bog standard grey knight flunkies. But the Grey Knights are still much better value for their points in every metric.

But again, the actual comparison should be between Malefic Lords (80 points) and Primaris Psykers (40 points). Functionally identical units, Primaris are half the points, and have the IG codex to back them up.

The only units in the R&H codex that are worth their points are the Marauders, and -maybe- the Mortar Teams. (They're bad, but at least they're cheap and bad). Everything else may as well not exist.

Which is lucky, because at the moment none of the other units do exist! (Neither do marauders, but still).

"Maybee mortar teams" --> R&H Mortar teams are about as broken as mortars get. That said, mortar teams without hw are 3ppm so 25% cheaper then your regular militia dude. See the irony, secondly mortars in general are too cheap at 5pts a piece, beeing allowed to field 6 in one heavy support squad is nigh memeworthy. The average renegade commander at 25pts is about as good as a platoon commander at 30 , except for the lack of orders. Marauders are one of those units that actually get gak done on their own and survive alot of stuff thrown at them, albeit we need to mention the fact that a 6ppm a near TAC/CSM profile with an always on -1 to hit and +2 on saves for when the unit is in cover is a special kind of broken in the scalling. (just like Kabalites are but that is another discussion)

Lol, I like the way you slip in the Renegade Commander in the middle of the block of text and hope nobody notices, as if he's anywhere near as useful as mortars or marauders. Yes, he's 5 points cheaper than a platoon commander, but those orders are worth 30 points by themselves. He's cheap enough for noone to really care about spending 25 points on the HQ tax though, but he's effectively just dead weight.

Mortars I agree do get better if you literally spam as many of them as possible, but I don't tend to like playing hordes of identical models. 18 mortar teams would bore me to make (but might be fun to play with just for the box of dice). But you run the risk of them being updated in CA and becoming useless (like those people who painted 3 malefic lords and who now shelf them).

@Niiru

You can shittalk R&H commanders all you want. Matter of fact is that he recently, and constantly fethed up units that cost way more then he does in melee after my lines got charged. Matter of fact also is that he can equip powerweapons. AND the +1 ld aura is a really usefull tool too for R&H since we actually profit quite abit from it, unlike other factions.

Not Online!!! wrote:
@Niiru

You can shittalk R&H commanders all you want. Matter of fact is that he recently, and constantly fethed up units that cost way more then he does in melee after my lines got charged. Matter of fact also is that he can equip powerweapons. AND the +1 ld aura is a really usefull tool too for R&H since we actually profit quite abit from it, unlike other factions.

I was talking about the 25 point base commander, who does very little (compared to a 30 point commander who can give orders and is a huge force multiplier).

In my own R&H list I use commanders, because I give them a plasma pistol and/or power weapons, and put them in Chimera with plasma marauder squads. Cramming even more heavy hitting weapons (and even a juicy hidden fist) into a chimera turns it into a nice little threatening distraction carnifex.

I mean really it just shows how good marauders are, as it basically just adds a leader to the marauder squad.

But that's no longer a 25 point unit, he goes up to nearer 40.

Personally I still like him, but the argument was whether he was better than an IG commander, and he isn't because the IG commander adds a lot more to the army as a whole. The R&H commander is basically just a glorified squad leader (and he does that job pretty well). My list has 2 of them.

"The average renegade commander at 25pts is about as good as a platoon commander at 30 , except for the lack of orders."

I don't see how this suggest that he is better then a IG commander.

Niiru wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
I couldn't remember the name of GK Tac Squads and given that I was only comparing Smite versions the fact that Strikes can shoot better and live longer is neither here nor there.

At no point did I argue that MLs are a better unit than GKTs, just that random naughty humans are more powerful psykers than GKs. You've really got to stop arguing things I haven't said.

Random naughty humans *who are dedicated to the chaos gods and act as a conduit of the powers of chaos and are therefore dedicated psykers* are marginally better psykers than bog standard grey knight flunkies. But the Grey Knights are still much better value for their points in every metric.

But again, the actual comparison should be between Malefic Lords (80 points) and Primaris Psykers (40 points). Functionally identical units, Primaris are half the points, and have the IG codex to back them up.

The only units in the R&H codex that are worth their points are the Marauders, and -maybe- the Mortar Teams. (They're bad, but at least they're cheap and bad). Everything else may as well not exist.

Which is lucky, because at the moment none of the other units do exist! (Neither do marauders, but still).

None of which was disputed, but yeah comparing the ML to the IP would have been a much better idea in a comment responding to a claim that GK Smite spam is "deadly".

Doesn't rob the comment of any relevance at all.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm pretty sure that Platoon Commanders are 20pts. Company Commanders are 30.

 Excommunicatus wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
I couldn't remember the name of GK Tac Squads and given that I was only comparing Smite versions the fact that Strikes can shoot better and live longer is neither here nor there.

At no point did I argue that MLs are a better unit than GKTs, just that random naughty humans are more powerful psykers than GKs. You've really got to stop arguing things I haven't said.

Random naughty humans *who are dedicated to the chaos gods and act as a conduit of the powers of chaos and are therefore dedicated psykers* are marginally better psykers than bog standard grey knight flunkies. But the Grey Knights are still much better value for their points in every metric.

But again, the actual comparison should be between Malefic Lords (80 points) and Primaris Psykers (40 points). Functionally identical units, Primaris are half the points, and have the IG codex to back them up.

The only units in the R&H codex that are worth their points are the Marauders, and -maybe- the Mortar Teams. (They're bad, but at least they're cheap and bad). Everything else may as well not exist.

Which is lucky, because at the moment none of the other units do exist! (Neither do marauders, but still).

None of which was disputed, but yeah comparing the ML to the IP would have been a much better idea in a comment responding to a claim that GK Smite spam is "deadly".

Doesn't rob the comment of any relevance at all.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm pretty sure that Platoon Commanders are 20pts. Company Commanders are 30.

Either way can we get back to the actual point of the post?
Our units are over pointed and under powered with a couple of exceptions.
We have the fire support that chaos lacks and our Russ tanks ability to fire twice is great even if it doesnt get a good regimental bonus.
Troops are only good for cp generation and mild speed bump and are well over pointed and under powered. If you like large squads then Vox casters or enforcers but since. The only Benefit of large squads over msu is to maximize the use of single target stratagems which we dont get or to protect weapon upgrades which are a waste of points when accuracy is so low and they die to a stiff breeze its best just to run msu cultists without upgrades to save points or a stubber at most imho.
Elite choices like command squads, diciples and maruders are our only balanced units. I use them with auto/lazcannon and sniper Maruders and it works well unit the enemy Breaks through the troop screen which always happens until i get more deamons.

The only way to run competitively is as a small cp battery with maybe some big guns for another army or as a loyalist guard army.

Just back to 40k after 20yrs, where can I find the rules for Renegade Militia in 8th edition?

Any help gratefully received

0utlaw wrote:
Just back to 40k after 20yrs, where can I find the rules for Renegade Militia in 8th edition?

Any help gratefully received

Ironically in the Fw Index astra militarum.
You know where the IG fw stuff is.

Index: Forces of the Astra Militarum, to give its full title.

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-CA/Imperial-Armour-Index-Astra-Militarum-2017

 Excommunicatus wrote:
R&H are bad by themselves, but GK are currently much worse IMO, to the point of being almost completely unusable.

R&H are decent enough as part of a soup. They give you 10CP and six ObSec units for less than 350pts, at least. That's something.

In my experience, adding Basilisks and LR support for melee Daemons works well too, since the vehicles have AM BS. That said, we get shafted there too, since we pay the same prices as AM but our vehicles can't accept Orders or be subject to a Doctrine, or whatever they're called.

I like your thinking.

The 10 CP build is why you take R&H. It's a smaller component of a Daemon army that enables things like Bloodletter bombs.

As far as I am aware, AM doesn't have access to an elite melee unit of this caliber. That may be the only advantage R&H has over Imperial units.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
R&H are bad by themselves, but GK are currently much worse IMO, to the point of being almost completely unusable.

R&H are decent enough as part of a soup. They give you 10CP and six ObSec units for less than 350pts, at least. That's something.

In my experience, adding Basilisks and LR support for melee Daemons works well too, since the vehicles have AM BS. That said, we get shafted there too, since we pay the same prices as AM but our vehicles can't accept Orders or be subject to a Doctrine, or whatever they're called.

I like your thinking.

The 10 CP build is why you take R&H. It's a smaller component of a Daemon army that enables things like Bloodletter bombs.

As far as I am aware, AM doesn't have access to an elite melee unit of this caliber. That may be the only advantage R&H has over Imperial units.

Right. I run them alongside 60 Daemonettes 'cause I'm a deviant who prefers fluff to crunch, but yeah.

Fight the shooty stuff, shoot the fighty stuff.

What daemon units are best to go with our terrible R&H boyz who will do the camp home objective job? Are any of the greater daemons good?

No, not really. A Daemon Prince is always a better choice.

My R&H stand still, all game, and have no melee ability whatsoever so I throw Daemonettes, Seekers and Hellflayers at my opponent to stop them reaching my lines at all cost while I blow them to bits with 18 Mortars.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
No, not really. A Daemon Prince is always a better choice.

My R&H stand still, all game, and have no melee ability whatsoever so I throw Daemonettes, Seekers and Hellflayers at my opponent to stop them reaching my lines at all cost while I blow them to bits with 18 Mortars.

@ph34r
Actually in most of the cases any daemon unit that stands between your opponent and your R&H is decent. For better informations i reccomend you the Daemons tactica thread, i myself am more of a CSM dude, but even then, the name of the game is to slow down your enemies with your allies and shell them.

Granted R&H give you a great ammount of CP, which especially is usefull for CSM since VotLW and Cacophony are some of the best stratagems ever.

The longer a match tends to go the better your chances are with R&H, especially if you field arty. That is why you always include speedbump units /tarpits in any R&H list, or a big ammount of offensive right up your enemies face units (Daemons, kyborgs, etc.) which will dictate and bind your enemy whilest your arty backup does the cleaning out chore.

This ofcourse means that highly mobile flying units are a weakspot, so plan accordingly.

Plague bearers and nurglings as sneaky objectives grabbers and great speedbumbs and nurgles great for anti deepstrkers or inflitraters


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ulfhednir86 wrote:
Plague bearers and nurglings as sneaky objectives grabbers and great speedbumbs and nurgles great for anti deepstrkers or inflitraters

also r&h are great summoners imho and can use soul sacrifice, deamonic pact and deamonic possession stratagems while i find nurgles ability to revive and resilience and a good combo. But also summoning bloodletters by a alhpa strike character from a Valkyrie then their charging bonus could be devastating as well.

@Not Online: What’s a kyborg?

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
@Not Online: What’s a kyborg?

The german name for obliterators, we also sometimes call them Obihörnchen, which is the mascot of obi a market for guarden and building supplies, you can find a tool there for everything just like obliterators were a tool for every solution.

Hail guys, girls and everyone else

Alert put a condom on as these leaks may cause uncontrollable heretical nerd boners.
Blackstone fortress leaks have uncovered traitor guard models and other chaos crawlies including 30pt rogue pyscher.

Enjoy


https://www.google.co.nz/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/Warhammer/comments/9u5wjr/traitor_guard_from_blackstone_fortress/#ampf=undefined

https://i.redd.it/dwii594g8aw11.jpg

Ps tried to post the images but the warp didnt allow me too

First of ulf, get the slaaneshy speak outta here, you are a nurglite or do we need an enforcer!

Secondly allready seen allready prepared to shill and allready planned for integration as soon as my anvil stuff get's delivered.

Thirdly: it seems that we will get a proper codex afterall, not only that but we get basic guardsmen not cultists! HIP HIP HURAY FOR CARDBOARD BOX ARMOR INSTEAD OF PAPER!
(Just hypothetical 7guardsmen per squad and a flamer, a flamer is 7pts atm leaving us with 7dudes for 28 pts ergo 4 ppm each)

Fourth: negavolt and spindle drones? Did someone say arch heretek magos somewhere?

Fifth: now those psykers are great!

Additionally, they named the zealot vorne?!? Hahahahhaha

Also appears that traitor guard sergents get an extra wound rather than attack


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:
First of ulf, get the slaaneshy speak outta here, you are a nurglite or do we need an enforcer!

Secondly allready seen allready prepared to shill and allready planned for integration as soon as my anvil stuff get's delivered.

Thirdly: it seems that we will get a proper codex afterall, not only that but we get basic guardsmen not cultists! HIP HIP HURAY FOR CARDBOARD BOX ARMOR INSTEAD OF PAPER!
(Just hypothetical 7guardsmen per squad and a flamer, a flamer is 7pts atm leaving us with 7dudes for 28 pts ergo 4 ppm each)

Fourth: negavolt and spindle drones? Did someone say arch heretek magos somewhere?

Fifth: now those psykers are great!

Additionally, they named the zealot vorne?!? Hahahahhaha

Unprotected slannesh Worship spreads nurgles love lol

I'm really excited to see if this could wind up being viable for us!

 ulfhednir86 wrote:
Also appears that traitor guard sergents get an extra wound rather than attack


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:
First of ulf, get the slaaneshy speak outta here, you are a nurglite or do we need an enforcer!

Secondly allready seen allready prepared to shill and allready planned for integration as soon as my anvil stuff get's delivered.

Thirdly: it seems that we will get a proper codex afterall, not only that but we get basic guardsmen not cultists! HIP HIP HURAY FOR CARDBOARD BOX ARMOR INSTEAD OF PAPER!
(Just hypothetical 7guardsmen per squad and a flamer, a flamer is 7pts atm leaving us with 7dudes for 28 pts ergo 4 ppm each)

Fourth: negavolt and spindle drones? Did someone say arch heretek magos somewhere?

Fifth: now those psykers are great!

Additionally, they named the zealot vorne?!? Hahahahhaha

Unprotected slannesh Worship spreads nurgles love lol

There was a time posts like this were common and appropriate on this board. I miss those times.

I'm buying at least 100 of those Traitor Guard. They should have been released a decade ago.

All joking aside it looks like a really exciting time for us heretics with a.Potential codex coming. This was from100% factual rumours

"After years of languishing in Forge World army lists, Traitor Guard will finally receive their own codex. There will be no new model range, the new kits will just be a Cadian Battleforce with a sprue of spikey bits and a couple of Chaos Marauder command parts thrown into the box for good measure. The Traitor Guard codex itself will also just be an Astra Militarum in a plastic bag with a spikey bits sprue in it. The collector’s edition will include a Daemons codex."

For me if the rumour is true im going to get the collectors edition For the first time ever. But they mentioned no new models yet they exist in the blackstone box so. Im sceptical but hopeful

Also in blackstone fortress there are also chaos beastmen and dark magos which could also be in the codex bringing some aos players to us and if dark magos in there too they will be great with renegade knights or just fixin our tanks.

Time to gather our info and develop tactics.

In The blackstone rules it stats that the tratior guard sergent gets a extra wound and no mention of an extra attack which is great for gunlines and using them As take and hold tarpits.
We can also see that they have full squads with melee or lasgun loadouts so we get our flexibility back.

Also with deamons in the collectors ed it could mean deamology is back? Lets hope.

Also do we think dark magos and beastmen are included? Beastmen could be used as mutatants

Huh. Are you sure about that?
I imagine we will get a proper upgrade sprue with other helmets like gsc IG.
Secondly an IG codex? with spikes?!?
I mean how do we represent beastmen, mutants, mercenaries, etc.? I have a feeling someone pulled your leg there ulf.

Btw we miss the Shotgun option it seems, i would love to get mechanized traitor Guard units with shotguns

Not Online!!! wrote:
Huh. Are you sure about that?
I imagine we will get a proper upgrade sprue with other helmets like gsc IG.
Secondly an IG codex? with spikes?!?
I mean how do we represent beastmen, mutants, mercenaries, etc.? I have a feeling someone pulled your leg there ulf.

Btw we miss the Shotgun option it seems, i would love to get mechanized traitor Guard units with shotguns

I. Think upgrade sprews as well but. There are proper models in the blackstone box but it coould be an upgrade sprew.

The quote is copy from The only website i could find that Mentioned it.

Could mean simular to guard doesnt mean it is the guard codex. There is beastmen and dark mech in the box we can see it in The pictures and we do lack hqs and in. The point list has chaos beastmen.

I hope we keep some from the renegade index elites and shotguns but it May just be veterans that take em or maybe troops we dont know yet