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ElSmacko wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
So, anything new, or are we still downtrodden and i can let my renegades rest in a vitrin and or paint them?

I'm feeling a bit downtrodden. The Valk nerf was a big hit to what was going to be my primary (albeit probably unwise) attack strategy. I had, Have, had, three Valkyries in the works. Now, even with the Slaanesh trait, the odds of getting the charge off are lousy.

That
Being
Said

I'm still working on my army. Hopefully I'll be able to have my first progress and process post in the next couple of weeks, once I finish a different project.

I've changed my plan a bit for my army -- still going with the Catachans who have fallen to Slaanesh [*cough* seen the light *cough*], but now have a little more armour in the works, and rather than Ogryn Dart , I'm now thinking of going ~1/4th of my point total in Slaaneshi Daemons.

Can work, however with Slaanesh you throw 3d6 for a charge, shouldn't that be enough for the Darts to be reliable?

"Can work, however with Slaanesh you throw 3d6 for a charge, shouldn't that be enough for the Darts to be reliable?"

We're stuck out at 9", now, right? Even with 3d6, the odds of rolling a 9+ are pretty bad.

I applaud your deviancy, but I think Slaanesh Daemons render melee R&H moot. They do it better and they do it faster.

Build a R&H gunline to support them.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
I applaud your deviancy, but I think Slaanesh Daemons render melee R&H moot. They do it better and they do it faster.

Build a R&H gunline to support them.

I doubt that, considering the profile of the Berzerkers.

First things first, maybe I'm understanding the rules wrong. If I'm 9" away from an opponent after dropping from a Valkyrie, do I need to roll an 8 or a 9 to make the charge?

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
I applaud your deviancy, but I think Slaanesh Daemons render melee R&H moot. They do it better and they do it faster.

Build a R&H gunline to support them.

I doubt that, considering the profile of the Berzerkers.

It's tough to say though, right?

Daemonettes -- for 6 points each, you're getting M7 S3 T3 A2 W1 ,
that AP-4 on a 6 to wound.

Seekers -- for 15? points each, you're getting M14, S4 T3 A4 W2
that has 2 of its attacks that AP-4 on a 6 to wound and that rerolls failed charges.

Ogryn -- for 30! points each, you're getting M6 S5(6) T5 A3(4) W3
that have 4 attacks on charge and that do 2 wounds, and will be rolling 3-dice-drop-lowest to charge.

Clearly the Ogryn are hitting Better if by better we mean Harder. But assuming we're taking about the Ogryn Dart (meaning 4 Ogryn), we need to consider that we can buy 20 Daemonettes or 8 Seekers for the price of 4 Ogryn (Daemonettes = 20 T3 wounds and 40 S3 attacks, Seekers = 16 T3 Wounds and 16/16 S3/S4 attacks, and Ogryn = 12 T5 wounds and 16 S6 attacks.

I'm ignoring things like bonus for having add-ons and the Ogryn's combat Stimms. I'm not going to go full Mathhammer and calculate that out, because there's too many additional variables in in hth gameplay to make it useful IMHO. But there is one additional thing we need for the comparison, and that's the fact that the Valkyrie that's going to get our sexy Ogryn boys into combat is an extra 100 points! And if what I'm readying from around the net is true, a Valkyrie that's not a very valuable 100 points.

So for the total cost of delivering 4 Ogryn's in Valkyrie to the enemy line, we could buy a total of 36 Daemonettes, or 15 Seekers, or 4 seeker Chariots and some points to spare. Are they going to have as easy a time making it into combat? No. But they might also not lose members to falling out of the Valkyrie, and then got shot up when they fail their charge.

Thesis Statement: Obviously Ogryn's and Daemonettes/Seekers have different roles to play in a game. It seems like taking a the Ogryn's are a big, meaning Expensive risk now, especially considering the points cost of the Valkyrie. If there was a better way, meaning either a less expensive way, or a more reliable way, to get the Ogryn into position and to guarantee a charge, or a better way to get a larger unit of Ogryn's safely upfield, I'd be far more willing to use them.

That being said, I AM going to use them, I'm just now doubtful they're the best choice.

You need to roll nine. Eight would leave you an inch short. The average roll of 2D6 is seven... and a re-roll costs 1CP...

For clarity, I'm not arguing Slaanesh Daemons are better at melee than Berzerkers, but I am absolutely flat-out telling you they're much better at it than R&H are.

EDIT - Oh, you mean Ogryn Berzerkers. Yeah, Slaanesh Daemons are still better. In 8th, numbers beat toughness every time.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
You need to roll nine. Eight would leave you an inch short. The average roll of 2D6 is seven... and a re-roll costs 1CP...

For clarity, I'm not arguing Slaanesh Daemons are better at melee than Berzerkers, but I am absolutely flat-out telling you they're much better at it than R&H are.

EDIT - Oh, you mean Ogryn Berzerkers. Yeah, Slaanesh Daemons are still better. In 8th, numbers beat toughness every time.

Meh that debatable.

Morale immune numbers most certainly, just numbers, less so.

Spend 150pts on Ogryns and 150pts on Daemonettes and the Daemonettes will perform better.

I think 150pts of Mutants might, too. Small, elite units are not treated well by this ruleset.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Spend 150pts on Ogryns and 150pts on Daemonettes and the Daemonettes will perform better.

I think 150pts of Mutants might, too. Small, elite units are not treated well by this ruleset.

Except If you alpha strike, that said 150 pts mutants? Better 30 with an enforcer for maximum spite in melee.

Side note. I recently looked back at the smaller arty we get. Quad guns and heavy mortars.
It is absurd that a Quad gun pays 25 pts more for far better results no?

But that's exactly my point. Ogryns aren't the best melee choice in a book that seriously lacks melee options.

Thus, Daemons. For 30pts more than 30 Mutants and an Enforcer, you can have 30 Daemonettes, which are faster, choppier, more resilient and can be Summoned. Or, you spend another 60pts and add a Herald in a Patrol, and they get access to the Locus and +1S, too.

I'll have to take your word on the artillery. I saw the prices for them on Forge World and decided I'd rely heavily on Basilisks instead, so I don't know much about them.

I did at one point have a list written that had artillery as Troop choices... those were the days.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
But that's exactly my point. Ogryns aren't the best melee choice in a book that seriously lacks melee options.

Thus, Daemons. For 30pts more than 30 Mutants and an Enforcer, you can have 30 Daemonettes, which are faster, choppier, more resilient and can be Summoned. Or, you spend another 60pts and add a Herald in a Patrol, and they get access to the Locus and +1S, too.

I'll have to take your word on the artillery. I saw the prices for them on Forge World and decided I'd rely heavily on Basilisks instead, so I don't know much about them.

I did at one point have a list written that had artillery as Troop choices... those were the days.

Fixed the barrells on my alternatives, the problem is the heavy mortar is S6 ap-1 dd3 d6 shots for 60, the quad launcher is S5 AP0 D1 4d6 for 85.

I did at one point have a list written that had artillery as Troop choices... those were the days.

Artillery tyrant lists with Purge formation, god that was chedar, proxied once, never touched again.

My planed list involved 100 grenadiers, of which 30 were to be dropped in with meltas and volley guns.

Just to confirm, how many special/heavy weapons are militia allowed to take? Battlescribe says I can take 4 specials in a unit of 16, and I've even seen lists online that do this, but the index says every 5 models can take a special weapon.

asobitaii wrote:
Just to confirm, how many special/heavy weapons are militia allowed to take? Battlescribe says I can take 4 specials in a unit of 16, and I've even seen lists online that do this, but the index says every 5 models can take a special weapon.

Regarding special weapons, the book specifically says "for every five models in the unit,". I don't know why people would interpret the book any differently than 15 through 19 models = 3 weapons, and 20 = 4. I imagine they're just going off the incorrect program?

Regarding forming heavy weapons teams, it says 1 for every 10, and ..... I'm just going to assume that the wording Doesn't intend for the Heavy Weapons Team model count to interfere with taking special weapons, but I'm sure that in the history of this hobby, it's been argued.

RAW, if you take 2 HWT you can only take three Special Weapons, 'cause you've only got eighteen models.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
RAW, if you take 2 HWT you can only take three Special Weapons, 'cause you've only got eighteen models.

Should say much about the writers of the index.

Cmd vox isn't working due to undeterminable morale of the Cmd squad because they cut Text line on the vox.

Militia squad weaponry not working as intended.

But frankly if someone really claims that is the case that would be a huge checkmark on the Tfg list.

Cheers guys, I saw a list with 16 militia squads with 4 grenade launchers and 2 heavy stubbers for 88 points and thought it looked a bit too good to be true. Still, a 20 man squad with the same guns at 104 isnt that bad. How are you guys running your objective campers, fully decked out or bare bones?

Not Online!!! wrote:

But frankly if someone really claims that is the case that would be a huge checkmark on the Tfg list.

In a casual, pick-up game, 100%.

In a tournament, they'll enforce the RAW. every time though

 Excommunicatus wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

But frankly if someone really claims that is the case that would be a huge checkmark on the Tfg list.

In a casual, pick-up game, 100%.

In a tournament, they'll enforce the RAW. every time though

Well who in their right mind would show up in the first place with r&h

Me.

I'm literally entering an ITC event tomorrow with Slaanesh Daemons and R&H.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Me.

I'm literally entering an ITC event tomorrow with Slaanesh Daemons and R&H.

Ayy but you atleast got Slaanesh daemons.

actually what's the list you are planning on using?

Greetings heretics

Check out the apocalypse rules they actually fixed our list to work even militia and covenants are usable
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wfXgu3DWkzkYEMdKqOQPYML0_bUSkA1b/view?usp=drivesdk

Yeah, just had a look. Doesn’t seem too shabby!

Gutted that Malcador Annihilators and Valdors are still not useable for us though, even in Apoc :(

tc63 wrote:
Yeah, just had a look. Doesn’t seem too shabby!

Gutted that Malcador Annihilators and Valdors are still not useable for us though, even in Apoc :(

HE, atleast we get functional (and i mean functional) Covenants and price balanced Militia mutants and Cultists.
Which is a huge step forward.

Also however i really would like to know wtf the Enforcer brings.

 ulfhednir86 wrote:
Greetings heretics

Check out the apocalypse rules they actually fixed our list to work even militia and covenants are usable
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wfXgu3DWkzkYEMdKqOQPYML0_bUSkA1b/view?usp=drivesdk

So why are cultists STILL more accurate and skilled in hand to hand than militia, who have had at least some semblance of military training?

I'm still kind of new to the Renegades and Heretics army, I assume it's explained somewhere in a book I don't have?

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 ulfhednir86 wrote:
Greetings heretics

Check out the apocalypse rules they actually fixed our list to work even militia and covenants are usable
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wfXgu3DWkzkYEMdKqOQPYML0_bUSkA1b/view?usp=drivesdk

So why are cultists STILL more accurate and skilled in hand to hand than militia, who have had at least some semblance of military training?

I'm still kind of new to the Renegades and Heretics army, I assume it's explained somewhere in a book I don't have?

It isn't. it is utter bullcrap.

in 7th and the glorious IA 13 R&H had the following troop option (sans demagogue option unlocks)

Mutants (blobs as is, even blobbier since they were 3ppm)

Militia (same stats as now but 3 ppm, however option to buy training for 10 pts flat per squad, giving them ws and bs 4+)

Renegade Veterans (Militia + basically like veterans for ig but not bs3+ but instead ws 3+, yes we were able to run a somewhat decen melee lists based upon chimeras and melee veterans.)


Cultists were never part of the R&H army. EVEN when there was just the vraks PDF.
Infact culists should've never been part of a R&H army to begin with except if you pick the right demagogue, but seeing as we don't have demagogues anymore, or hotshot lasguns and any other number of units we HAD since well the list existenced, don't be surprised.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 ulfhednir86 wrote:
Greetings heretics

Check out the apocalypse rules they actually fixed our list to work even militia and covenants are usable
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wfXgu3DWkzkYEMdKqOQPYML0_bUSkA1b/view?usp=drivesdk

So why are cultists STILL more accurate and skilled in hand to hand than militia, who have had at least some semblance of military training?

I'm still kind of new to the Renegades and Heretics army, I assume it's explained somewhere in a book I don't have?

It isn't. it is utter bullcrap.

in 7th and the glorious IA 13 R&H had the following troop option (sans demagogue option unlocks)

Mutants (blobs as is, even blobbier since they were 3ppm)

Militia (same stats as now but 3 ppm, however option to buy training for 10 pts flat per squad, giving them ws and bs 4+)

Renegade Veterans (Militia + basically like veterans for ig but not bs3+ but instead ws 3+, yes we were able to run a somewhat decen melee lists based upon chimeras and melee veterans.)


Cultists were never part of the R&H army. EVEN when there was just the vraks PDF.
Infact culists should've never been part of a R&H army to begin with except if you pick the right demagogue, but seeing as we don't have demagogues anymore, or hotshot lasguns and any other number of units we HAD since well the list existenced, don't be surprised.

Technically militia don’t need training to be counted as militia, I think by definition militia is non regular troops.
I would like to see heretics drop Cultists and introduce the servants of the abyss units especially Traitor guard and beastmen. So militia and rabble for cheap cannon fodder troops with guard and beastmen as more effective troops.
I like where our veterans are tbh, because as they get better accuracy increases and of course being chaos melee is a must as well it does also mean we can design as a shooting and/or melee as heretics are diverse compared to the loyalist scum. Definitely need hotshot guns for elite options.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also when adding the servants they need to remove limits and give them customisation lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another option I would like to see is adding AoS units/models like blight kings included in 40k and heretics would be a good place to start. I know it sounds like having a cake and eating it but it would promote both AoS as 40k increasing sales for both and add a lot of diversity in 40k. I like being able to play both systems with the same units and AoS models look great and imaging an army of blight kings with nurgle deamons slowly advancing into a gunline of imperial guard then hacking them apart with axes ooooooh yeah also adding contagion points for covenant of nurgle instead of cp will be cool.

How are you all running your Sniper Marauder squads?

Minimum size to keep their point total low and improve the ability to find cover? Max size for extra Lasguns and ablative woulds for your Sniper Rifles? Somewhere in between?

I would think I would probably go between, with maybe 6 to a squad, or maybe more if I know I'm going to be hanging in my own deployment zone all game?

I have two old metal Catachan snipers and one of the old smoking Bolt Gun sergeants waiting to know how many comrades they're going to be hiding out with.

ElSmacko wrote:
How are you all running your Sniper Marauder squads?

Minimum size to keep their point total low and improve the ability to find cover? Max size for extra Lasguns and ablative woulds for your Sniper Rifles? Somewhere in between?

I would think I would probably go between, with maybe 6 to a squad, or maybe more if I know I'm going to be hanging in my own deployment zone all game?

I have two old metal Catachan snipers and one of the old smoking Bolt Gun sergeants waiting to know how many comrades they're going to be hiding out with.

Depends a bit, i sometimes use my marauders to plug holes in my line since they do decent and don't really run.

Most of the time i go with the cheap 34 pts loadout tho.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Technically militia don’t need training to be counted as militia, I think by definition militia is non regular troops.
I would like to see heretics drop Cultists and introduce the servants of the abyss units especially Traitor guard and beastmen. So militia and rabble for cheap cannon fodder troops with guard and beastmen as more effective troops.
I like where our veterans are tbh, because as they get better accuracy increases and of course being chaos melee is a must as well it does also mean we can design as a shooting and/or melee as heretics are diverse compared to the loyalist scum. Definitely need hotshot guns for elite options.

Nope that is not true.

Militia means: structure and training are atleast partially there. Also national / peoples army. Also conscript armies Fall under this category and parade exemple my own country there.

Untrained cannonfodder is what the cultists are and are called irregulars, freischärler in the german language, or sometimes by specific names like Guerilla or Saubannerzüger.

So I'm new to R&H and reviewing this topic not seen many lists as of late (probably because as most agree, they aren't exactly the best )

However those of you who are still having the odd game, what lists are you currently rocking?

And also, any suggestions for must haves for lower 1k point games?

 Tooooon wrote:
So I'm new to R&H and reviewing this topic not seen many lists as of late (probably because as most agree, they aren't exactly the best )

However those of you who are still having the odd game, what lists are you currently rocking?

And also, any suggestions for must haves for lower 1k point games?

the last list i had, was aganist a friends recently started CSM. He did win mostly because he managed to hold onto the objectives and the game ended that moment so lucky him but this was my list for the 750 pts.

Commander, Warlord lasgun Khorne covenant
commander Energy fist lasgun

Command squad 10 CMD vox, PG, AC
Chimera ML HB

Renegade Disciples squad 11 PG AC Vox
Chimera ML hb

10 Disciples PG Stubber vox

Valkyrie 2 rocket pods ML

Leman Russ BC 3 HB's-

Key was to be out of LoS with the units until you could guarantee a first shooting phase preferentially with a charge phase following up.
The leman Russ is just solid at that pts range, also since we don't benefit from generating CP there's nothing wrong to just skip the whole Troops schtick and bring our best in the field.

in hindsight i probably should've brought my Marauder squads but frankly that is neither here nor there.
Also Gunship mode for the valkyire is usefull and i mean really usefull especially with the ammount of tank target saturation i had going.