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I just take a pretty minimized Brigade as a CP farm and backfield ObSec blob to provide ranged support to my Daemons.

Commander
Malefic Lord x2
Command Squad
Enforcer x2
70 Militia dudesmen
3 Armoured Sentinels
18 Mortar HWTs

Comes to about 900pts and gives you six ObSec units and 12CP.

the classic horde, what weapons on the Sentinels?

Yeah, plus 60 Daemonettes.

Always Lascannons, sometimes H-K Missiles.

Makes sense

 Excommunicatus wrote:
I just take a pretty minimized Brigade as a CP farm and backfield ObSec blob to provide ranged support to my Daemons.

Commander
Malefic Lord x2
Command Squad
Enforcer x2
70 Militia dudesmen
3 Armoured Sentinels
18 Mortar HWTs

Comes to about 900pts and gives you six ObSec units and 12CP.

Have you tried using the rogue psyker coven? They have worked really well for me and just seem hands down better than the Lords. They can deny almost any psyker in the game and put out fairly reliable d6 smites. The big weakness is being targetable, but being infantry makes ducking them through cover easier and I find most people just don't focus on them. That said, I never really tried the Malefic Lords so I was wondering.

Also for the elites, do you find the enforcer useful for MSU militia squads? I have been taking Marauder Stalkers and using them as cheap engineers which has worked pretty well. I feel like if anyone looks at my militia they are going to die, so I haven't tried throwing an enforcer in there since I run them as small as possible.

I really like the Sentinels! I have been using them similar to how you do as some cheap fire support but I just started toying with scouts. That pre-game move draws attention away from other targets and if it doesn't they make solid screens for my DPs and Syll. I originally tried Heavy Flamers but am considering just going dirt cheap with multi lasers.

Kias wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
I just take a pretty minimized Brigade as a CP farm and backfield ObSec blob to provide ranged support to my Daemons.

Commander
Malefic Lord x2
Command Squad
Enforcer x2
70 Militia dudesmen
3 Armoured Sentinels
18 Mortar HWTs

Comes to about 900pts and gives you six ObSec units and 12CP.

Have you tried using the rogue psyker coven? They have worked really well for me and just seem hands down better than the Lords. They can deny almost any psyker in the game and put out fairly reliable d6 smites. The big weakness is being targetable, but being infantry makes ducking them through cover easier and I find most people just don't focus on them. That said, I never really tried the Malefic Lords so I was wondering.

Also for the elites, do you find the enforcer useful for MSU militia squads? I have been taking Marauder Stalkers and using them as cheap engineers which has worked pretty well. I feel like if anyone looks at my militia they are going to die, so I haven't tried throwing an enforcer in there since I run them as small as possible.

I really like the Sentinels! I have been using them similar to how you do as some cheap fire support but I just started toying with scouts. That pre-game move draws attention away from other targets and if it doesn't they make solid screens for my DPs and Syll. I originally tried Heavy Flamers but am considering just going dirt cheap with multi lasers.

Mostly because
A: Ex likes his army as planned out in his background fluff.

B: Missing charachter keywords make Covens an easy priority target. As you stated, against shooty lists that is quite the handicap. (altough my meta is shooty par excelence, TOO MANY TAU I SAY! )

C: Militia is surprisingly durable with the right upgrades. By virtue of beeing cheap, denying or propping up morale tests helps in that regard.
But yeah if you want screening with morale immunity go with the cultists or Mutants at max size in combinaton with the enfocer.

------------------------------------------

Dirt cheap sentinels with ML yes they can work.
But again, so long you don't soup why would you want them ?

What is people thought's on SotA disloyal20?
2x Traitor commissars
2x Traitor guard
1x beastmen
194 points.
Slightly more points than the disloyal32 but better units.
They can take rogue psychers etc for cheap smite and chaos Ogryn characters.

Also is it OK to talk SotA here?

bs because we allready got the illoyal 32 which are better, cheaper and actually adaptable.

Also yes SotA would be found here.

So, yeah, I haven't tried a Psyker Coven before because I couldn't think up a convincing reason why they would exist in my force.

However, I think I've got one and will be making liberal use of bitz to build the 'Aleksandrov Ensemble'; four Possessed choristers and a conductor.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
So, yeah, I haven't tried a Psyker Coven before because I couldn't think up a convincing reason why they would exist in my force.

However, I think I've got one and will be making liberal use of bitz to build the 'Aleksandrov Ensemble'; four Possessed choristers and a conductor.

Probably could also convert a metal bawks out of the Organ Rhino for security reasons.
Probably should, covens tend to get a lot of hatemail.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
I just take a pretty minimized Brigade as a CP farm and backfield ObSec blob to provide ranged support to my Daemons.

Commander
Malefic Lord x2
Command Squad
Enforcer x2
70 Militia dudesmen
3 Armoured Sentinels
18 Mortar HWTs

Comes to about 900pts and gives you six ObSec units and 12CP.

Sadly we don't get obSec even with our troops. They need to have the rule to get it in 8th

Another casuality.
We can't even hold objectives anymore...

Devolved into a bunch of murderhobos with too many guns.

Not Online!!! wrote:
bs because we allready got the illoyal 32 which are better, cheaper and actually adaptable.

Also yes SotA would be found here.

Thank you
I know I'm bias but I don't think the disloyal 32 is better. They hit on 5s, only a 6+ save, will run at the drop of a hat and nothing to buff them. They are cheaper(but not by much detachment wise) and customizable.

 ulfhednir86 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
bs because we allready got the illoyal 32 which are better, cheaper and actually adaptable.

Also yes SotA would be found here.

Thank you
I know I'm bias but I don't think the disloyal 32 is better. They hit on 5s, only a 6+ save, will run at the drop of a hat and nothing to buff them. They are cheaper(but not by much detachment wise) and customizable.

Again.
What’s the point of the loyal 32 or all these detachments?
Cp and foot print.
What do the illoyal 32 bring?
More CP more footprint.
Also if you do the math youd end up with an equal fight most likely.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Another casuality.
We can't even hold objectives anymore...

Devolved into a bunch of murderhobos with too many guns.

We can hold them but anyone with obSec (pretty much any troops for any codex army ) nearby will take priority no matter how many bodies we swarm it 1 loyalist guardsman will take it from us

 ulfhednir86 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Another casuality.
We can't even hold objectives anymore...

Devolved into a bunch of murderhobos with too many guns.

We can hold them but anyone with obSec (pretty much any troops for any codex army ) nearby will take priority no matter how many bodies we swarm it 1 loyalist guardsman will take it from us

If he can reach it through the piles of bodies in the way.

Right, that Brigade I posted leaves room for 1,100pts of other stuff in a 'standard' game.

It sucks that we apparently lost ObSec (or did we never have it?) but even so you should be able to screen your backline fairly effectively with the rest of your force.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 ulfhednir86 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
bs because we allready got the illoyal 32 which are better, cheaper and actually adaptable.

Also yes SotA would be found here.

Thank you
I know I'm bias but I don't think the disloyal 32 is better. They hit on 5s, only a 6+ save, will run at the drop of a hat and nothing to buff them. They are cheaper(but not by much detachment wise) and customizable.

Again.
What’s the point of the loyal 32 or all these detachments?
Cp and foot print.
What do the illoyal 32 bring?
More CP more footprint.
Also if you do the math youd end up with an equal fight most likely.

The 20 have twice the armour and the beastmen by themselves hit on 3+ with 3x str 5 attacks on the charge each will be more melee ability than half the 32. Agreed that the traitor guard are annoying with mixed weapons but if your charging them (and with +3 to charge rolls you should IMHO) with the shots pre charge shots works out about the same as the attacks and would defeat a Militia squad on average not to mention moral where SotA are basically immune thanks to low squad size and the enforcer ability. So 20 is better at fighting and a rogue psycher or 2 on top is good.

You are right of course about the cp and footprint though. It maybe the same number of units and not much point difference but you can spread out more and screen better.

Sad your on the other side of the world I would like to met you and have a game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 ulfhednir86 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Another casuality.
We can't even hold objectives anymore...

Devolved into a bunch of murderhobos with too many guns.

We can hold them but anyone with obSec (pretty much any troops for any codex army ) nearby will take priority no matter how many bodies we swarm it 1 loyalist guardsman will take it from us

If he can reach it through the piles of bodies in the way.

My favourite tactic, throw enough bodies at it and you will win


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Right, that Brigade I posted leaves room for 1,100pts of other stuff in a 'standard' game.

It sucks that we apparently lost ObSec (or did we never have it?) but even so you should be able to screen your backline fairly effectively with the rest of your force.

After 8th came out everyone lost it until their codex came out.

Melee < to shooting.

The rogue psykers cost to much.

I get a full disciple squad per rogue psyker or marauders.
Infact i get a full squad of hwt's with stubbers and have more reach again.

In the time your beastmen are in melee they are allready dead.

Melee with no mobility option (No the commisar is not good enough at it to be considered) is dead.

So again they are nice units but so long their core rule framework Supports them even less then R&H so long they remain unplayable.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also ONLY TRAITOR GUARDSMEN get the additional 3" charges.
Making the commisar even more idiotically designed and restrictive

Not Online!!! wrote:
Melee < to shooting.

The rogue psykers cost to much.

I get a full disciple squad per rogue psyker or marauders.
Infact i get a full squad of hwt's with stubbers and have more reach again.

In the time your beastmen are in melee they are allready dead.

Melee with no mobility option (No the commisar is not good enough at it to be considered) is dead.

So again they are nice units but so long their core rule framework Supports them even less then R&H so long they remain unplayable.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also ONLY TRAITOR GUARDSMEN get the additional 3" charges.
Making the commisar even more idiotically designed and restriktive

The rogue psycher is alot cheaper that a malificent lord or psycher coven.
Beastmen are 4t so would survive a volley from the 32. But in bigger games I do see them getting gunned down.
Your right about it being stupid they only benefit Traitor guard.
I wouldnt say they are anymore unplayable as R&H as a battery but as a faction R&H have alot more option.
I just hope the next codex is a Heretic guard one

 ulfhednir86 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Melee < to shooting.

The rogue psykers cost to much.

I get a full disciple squad per rogue psyker or marauders.
Infact i get a full squad of hwt's with stubbers and have more reach again.

In the time your beastmen are in melee they are allready dead.

Melee with no mobility option (No the commisar is not good enough at it to be considered) is dead.

So again they are nice units but so long their core rule framework Supports them even less then R&H so long they remain unplayable.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also ONLY TRAITOR GUARDSMEN get the additional 3" charges.
Making the commisar even more idiotically designed and restriktive

The rogue psycher is alot cheaper that a malificent lord or psycher coven.
Beastmen are 4t so would survive a volley from the 32. But in bigger games I do see them getting gunned down.
Your right about it being stupid they only benefit Traitor guard.
I wouldnt say they are anymore unplayable as R&H as a battery but as a faction R&H have alot more option.
I just hope the next codex is a Heretic guard one

And coincidence has it that the rogue psykers detonates himself... On 6/36 results and just knows smite....
T4 also means not really much.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 ulfhednir86 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Melee < to shooting.

The rogue psykers cost to much.

I get a full disciple squad per rogue psyker or marauders.
Infact i get a full squad of hwt's with stubbers and have more reach again.

In the time your beastmen are in melee they are allready dead.

Melee with no mobility option (No the commisar is not good enough at it to be considered) is dead.

So again they are nice units but so long their core rule framework Supports them even less then R&H so long they remain unplayable.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also ONLY TRAITOR GUARDSMEN get the additional 3" charges.
Making the commisar even more idiotically designed and restriktive

The rogue psycher is alot cheaper that a malificent lord or psycher coven.
Beastmen are 4t so would survive a volley from the 32. But in bigger games I do see them getting gunned down.
Your right about it being stupid they only benefit Traitor guard.
I wouldnt say they are anymore unplayable as R&H as a battery but as a faction R&H have alot more option.
I just hope the next codex is a Heretic guard one

And coincidence has it that the rogue psykers detonates himself... On 6/36 results and just knows smite....
T4 also means not really much.

True but also re rolls all 1s so nor likely to cast.
I don't think 1 extra power and toughness is worth the extra 60 points IMHO.

It is not, but let's not pretend the rogue psykers are a good choice either. Else IG would spam their superior ones everytime, which they do not.

Not Online!!! wrote:
It is not, but let's not pretend the rogue psykers are a good choice either. Else IG would spam their superior ones everytime, which they do not.

IG players especially the loyal32 guys do love their astropaths which cost more but they are only 12 points more (roughly) and their spells (mostly nightshroud and psychic barrier) are really good for protecting them. Of course your right, grey knights and Tson can cast smite have way better stats and cheaper in points.

So basically we are back at square one. Nice looking models but no propper rulessupport.

At this point we might aswell pick up the old Vraks PDF

Not Online!!! wrote:
So basically we are back at square one. Nice looking models but no propper rulessupport.

At this point we might aswell pick up the old Vraks PDF

At least we know that they are aware of the mess with our index, since they fixed them in the apocalypse index https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/777932.page#10504618. It will take more than the fixs to the covenants and points drop to make us competive in 40k but it would definitely help and it means that renegades and heretics are still in the range and not replaced by servants of the abyss (sad noises about losing traitor commissar, rogue psycher, traitor guard, beastmen and etc).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I do love Vraks though

Would it be fair to say that the Vraks books is where this started for most, if not all, of us?

I [Expletive Deleted]ing love those books. I still read them periodically, as if they're real literature.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Would it be fair to say that the Vraks books is where this started for most, if not all, of us?

I [Expletive Deleted]ing love those books. I still read them periodically, as if they're real literature.

The vraks free PDF from FW. actually for me.
Then IA13 and the new vraks books.

considering that Vraks tough for the longest time was the only rulesource for Renegades / lost and the damned , yes that's a fair assumption.

Can I have a link to the free pdf please?
I just finished the vrak series on YouTube. Still love it.

Never read the vraks books actually. I was browsing through my Imperial Armour book and saw renegades. It incorporated a lot of guard stuff which I love with chaos which I had never played.