Renegades and Heretics in 8th edition

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**Cephalobeard**

Heavy weapon spam is absolutely an option for them!

For me it's been using about 14 Malefic Lords and maximizing the ability to smite, and having the ability to summon loads of Daemons (Turn one I can summon the Changeling and enough horrors to convince you I'm actually playing a Daemon army.).

On paper, it offers me all the utility of my current Tzeentch list but with even more psychic power.

**Doctoralex**

Would you guys run a more melee-focused Renegade army or ranged focused army?

Melee:
-Sweet benefits from Convenant of Khorne or Slaanesh.

-Rogue Psyker Covern can pull of Unnatural Vigor quite reliably.

-All troops choices can take pistol + 'chainsword'. Mutants have 1/3rd chance of getting it on top of regular guns.

-Banner of Hate let's you deal out one attack if a model dies.

-Chaos Spawn are an extremely cheap fast attack, letting you get a Brigade detachment. Also not too shabby in melee combat and can combo a -1 LD with the -D3 LD psychic power.

ranged:

-Nice benefits from Covenant of Tzeench, unless you are facing another shooty army.

While the troops kind of suck at shooting imo, the elite options are great.

-Disciple squads can come in small numbers, letting you spam out BS 3+ heavy/special weapons teams. You can either get more teams or add any number of extra bodies to them.

-Maurauders can work great as small special weapons teams.Either with -1 to hit and +1 cover save, hopping from cover to cover and taking out key targets. Or with +1 armour save and Krak Grenades (a free weapon for the sergeant to use). You can also stick two squads in a Chimera.

Not sure what everyone's fuzz is about using them as snipers though. Too high of a tax for the two extra bodies + the sergeant.

-Not to sure about Heavy Weapons Squads..... sure it's 3 point base, but BS 5+ means you REALLY need to spam a lot of them. Maybe just taking more Disciple squads and adding a heavy weapon to those might be better.

Also question: Can you tel me which units benefit from the Convenant bonus? (I don't have the actual Index, I use Battlescribe which has 99% of the rules in it)

**Loopstah**

A marauder sniper squad is only 34pts and has three ablative wounds before you lose the sniper rifles.

I would only take HWT with mortars; for maximum shots due to the low BS and cheap cost.

**Elroniel**

I certainly think the Marauders with Sniper Rifles can get some work done, though I haven't tried it yet. I also very much like the idea of a crapload of Malefic Lords spamming Smite or summoning some demons.

- I have to agree when it comes to the HWT - It's gotta be Mortars or bust. Being fragile and having crap BS, you pretty much have to spam them and they have a great number of shots for the points, in addition to not needing LOS.

- The idea of a CC focused R&H list makes sense ... but seems like a ton of work with pile-ins and consolidating so many models. It's a large reason I'm going more shooting focused.

- I believe Covenants work on Infantry only.

**Doctoralex**

Elroniel wrote:

- The idea of a CC focused R&H list makes sense ... but seems like a ton of work with pile-ins and consolidating so many models. It's a large reason I'm going more shooting focused.

So... play Imperial Guard?

**Elroniel**

Doctoralex wrote:
Elroniel wrote:

- The idea of a CC focused R&H list makes sense ... but seems like a ton of work with pile-ins and consolidating so many models. It's a large reason I'm going more shooting focused.

So... play Imperial Guard?

Several reasons why not for me: 1.) I like the aesthetic of my R&H models. 2.) Easy to work in with my Iron Warrior stuff in terms of keywords. 3.) I'd rather not be the guy playing an obviously Chaos force using Imperial rules when I feel like the rules for R&H aren't really worse, just different.

Different strokes for different folks, I suppose.

**andysonic1**

I'm trying to figure out what kind of blob I want as a mobile melee assault and am flip flopping between two-three units of CSM in Rhinos, 10 flesh hounds, and 25-50 mutant rabble. I have a feeling I'll be going with the marines, either base bois or havocs with close ranged special weapons.

**doc1234**

Have been messing around with a 50PL list of World Eaters with Bloodpact.

Spoiler:

Friend reccomended the 3 lascannons were a bit overkill for 50pl but I'm not convinced. Also I'm not 100% sure if the basilisk is fitting or not.

Also, I know the marauders are best in min squads but guards not in squads of 5 bugs me a little fluffwise but not as much as if it was disciples in 5 man groups so, might still change it round.

**Arachnofiend**

andysonic1 wrote:
I'm trying to figure out what kind of blob I want as a mobile melee assault and am flip flopping between two-three units of CSM in Rhinos, 10 flesh hounds, and 25-50 mutant rabble. I have a feeling I'll be going with the marines, either base bois or havocs with close ranged special weapons.

What close range special weapons? The only melee weapon havocs can take is a chainsword. They can't take from the melee weapons list.

**Doctoralex**

So, question:

I've heard people say you should take Dark Apostles with the Renegades for their leadership bubble and re-roll to hit in close combat. But his auras only work on a keyword 'Legion'.
Are the Heretics and Renegades considered a keyword 'legion'?

And secondly, let me know what you think of my semi-competitive army list:

Brigade Detachment: 1500 points.

HQ:
Renegade Commander; Convenant of Slaanesh.
Reason:The Commander is there just for the Convenant buff. Since we are going for a close-combat army, Slaanesh seems like a good choice to reliably get into combat turn 2.

2x Malific Lord; powers: Creeping Terror, Warp Flux.
Reason: Very cheap and powerful psykers that are pretty much the poster-boy in terms of competitive-ness for R&H. Spamming these won't be fun though, so I'm trying out just two.

Rogue Psyker Covern; power: Unnatural Vigor
Reason: These guys will be casting Unnatural Vigor turn two for that amazing close-combat buff for all the mutants. Just need to be careful not to hit the Enforcers or Malific Lords with it, while still trying to get all Mutant squads in range...

Troops:
6x 20 Mutant Rabble /w Shotguns
Reason: I choose Mutant Rabble because they can potentially get +1 attack AND have a normal ranged weapon. Cultists and Militia have to choose between either a normal gun or a pistol + CCW.
Now there is the risk of rolling a 1 for mutations, but remember that the 'phase' before the battle begins technically isn't a 'turn phase'. This means that every mutation roll can be re-rolled with a command point. Of course, talk to your opponent if he is ok with this.

Elites:
2x Disciple Command Squad, Banner of Hate.
Reason: These guys will help buff the close-combat powers of the Mutants, giving each model an attack when he dies.

2x Enforcer
Reason: Just like Commissars for the Guard, these guys are manditory to keep the mutants in check, especially if they roll poorly on their Uncertain Worth roll.

Marauder Squad; 2x meltagun, Stalkers.
Reason: This squad will be advancing in between the Mutants, moving from cover to cover in the hopes to get close to an enemy vehicle for the Meltas to blow them up.

Fast Attack:
3x Chaos Spawn
Reason: These are incredibly cheap fast attack choices that aren't half-bad in melee. Since your opponent will no doubt be hosing down the Mutants, these guys have a pretty high chance of making it into combat.
They do not get the benefits from the Convenant aura and Unnatural Vigor, unfortunately.

Heavy Support:
3x Basilisk
Reason: very reliable artillery pieces that also do not suffer the R&H BS 5+. This is the army's primary form of anti-tank.

2x Wyvern
Reason: Reliable anti-infantry, not much else to say about it.

1x heavy weapons squad; 3 Lascannons
Reason: While they suffer from having BS 5+, I feel the army needs a bit more anti-tank.

**Demantiae**

DA's can only buff Legion units, so only CSM of a specific legion. There's nothing in the R&H list that buffs, all you get are Enforcers shooting people in the head in lieu of morale and a Covenant if you make a Commander the Warlord. No actual buff bubbles, which is disappointing.

**Elroniel**

Demantiae wrote:
DA's can only buff Legion units, so only CSM of a specific legion. There's nothing in the R&H list that buffs, all you get are Enforcers shooting people in the head in lieu of morale and a Covenant if you make a Commander the Warlord. No actual buff bubbles, which is disappointing.

I agree with disappointing ... but there is a little silver lining. We're virtually immune to Snipers since our HQ's are crap and if you go the route of Malefic Lords, you can spam them and still pretty much ignore Snipers. So, that's somewhat nice.

**exliontamer**

After a dozen or so games of 8th with my Renegades I have to say there is no reason I can see to keep playing them in any format.

If you want to run your Renegades models as a standalone-ish army competitively your best option is to switch over and run them as "Traitor" Guard. There isn't a single unit worth taking that Guard doesn't have a better version of, and access to commands alone blows every single Renegade special rule or small advantage (min Disc squads for 3+ Heavy Weapons for example) right out of the water. Not to mention access to all the Baneblade variants and random other vehicles that Renegades just don't get access to for some reason. And to top it all off WAY better morale control for blobs in the form of Commissars. Running them in a "unified" Chaos list...well you'd just find yourself slowly dropping Renegades units to free up points for superior CSM and Daemons ones.

As for open/narrative, unless Renegades get a Codex of their own (laughable) or the FW indices get HUGE reworks, there is absolutely no flavor reason to play them really, since they took out the specializations for the Renegade Commanders like Ordnance Tyrant, etc. they simply play as weaker, worse Guard with no fun fluffy rules. The Covenants range from yawnworthy to actually rage-inducing (the Nurgle one...what on earth were they thinking? COMPLETELY useless). And honestly if you are in a non-competitive, non-matched play setting ok it with your opponent and just run them with Guard rules and ally in Chaos anyway... Achieves the same end with strictly better rules...and fits the fluff pretty well in most cases.

I will concede that if you want to force the issue and play them regardless, taking a Spearhead for access to a couple Malefic Lords and some artillery might add a little more punch to a CSM or Daemons force...but Malefic Lords are really the only competitive unit in the whole Army List. Artillery is generally overcosted this edition, but it could add value to a Daemons list when they lack decent LOS ignoring firepower. I honestly wouldn't recommend it.

TL;DR - We got strapped with stinker rules and a poorly edited army list that makes Renegades almost completely unplayable for any reason (competitiveness, fluff, fun, etc)...and it is almost strictly better in any instance to play your Renegades models as turncoat Imperial Guard.

Sorry to be a bummer, but Renegades as they stand are bumming me out.

**McGibs**

With the new CSM codex, my renegades are going back to being cultists.
They got cheaper, got legion traits, can be buffed my CSM characters and abilities, and the CSM stratagem to bring them back to life (which is the whole reason I started renegades in the first place).

A sad sad state for FW R&H

**exliontamer**

McGibs wrote:
With the new CSM codex, my renegades are going back to being cultists.
They got cheaper, got legion traits, can be buffed my CSM characters and abilities, and the CSM stratagem to bring them back to life (which is the whole reason I started renegades in the first place).

A sad sad state for FW R&H

Yep, tell me about it. I have had a Prospero box sitting around for almost a year that I planned to turn into Alpha Legion to "support" my Renegades (like in the fluff) but at this point I am just going to make AL my main army and run my guys as their cultists, as you say. I may bring in my artillery pieces in fun games, but probably not. Havocs that your opponent can barely hit seem better in most cases...and since for the next several months 8th will be "Marines: The Game" due to the codices they've slated for release seems like my overall best option if I don't want to get pooped on weekly.

**Col. Dash**

Best use I see is adding IG tanks to chaos proper lists. I am fielding a Malefic lord, 2 bombards, and 2 medusas in my IW list. Including two marauder squads as snipers and anti-DS bubble. They live great, if not, they were only 34 points.

**Zmanzeta**

After reading all the posts wrote here until now, IMHO, I feel the problem here is lots of people were used to play R&H like they did in 7th edition with Vraks armies withs tons of artillery (because everyone here should admit that IA13 wasn't specially great) and considering now artillery models aren't something specially dangerous, the general opinion is that: R&H is a bad army.

My opinion is... it is just a bit troublesome now compared to what it was before, that's all, but it's a very funny and useful army. Except for shooting units of renegade militia (where it's very hard for them to make real damage even with HB, HS, GL or mortars) for the rest of the army I found all units useful in one or another way. Not OP but useful, so I think that's the "problem" here: we don't have units that make very great damage for few points (power points of normal points, it doesn't matter) so we can't trust that spamming one unit will solve all our problems (even the malefic lord is now 100% trustable).

I don't know you guys but for example I love to surpass my enemies in a 1:5 relationship and knowing that no matter how much dakka they have, it will be not enough to kill all my army. Or just play with lots of artillery models and reduce enemy units to dust and ashes that will cover my tanks' wheels.

We have lots of useful options, not only just spamming Malefic lords until the end of times...

To finish I would like to just point a few examples:

- Renegade Militia units are not bad with covenant of Khorne and CCW/autopistol combo, but I think this unit is great for one thing: spamming flamers. One flamer every models in a unit of 20 models are 4 flamers per squad, enough to reduces into ashes a 5 man space marine squad. In this case, I prefer those guys over cultists. With shooting Renegade militia units I have a weird feeling... They can use much more equipment than cultists but they really hit very poorly...

- Renegade Command Squad are great for their banners but I prefer them to have LD8-9 in whole army (with fanatic rule & using a CP it's very easy to have this LD value) by just buying some vox casters. Combined with Enforcers, you have almost a fearless army and that can be only good, don't you think?

- Macharius family, Malcador family and Baneblade are great lords of war with all kind of flavours, so I think we cannot complain about this (but I have to admit I would love to see a chaotic shadowsword). I don not own a Minotaur so I don't know how usefull it is but considering it's profile, looks a decent option.

- Leman Russ family are great option even without access to IG tank commanders.

- This army is now a pure horde army (much more than before), so considering our units are reeeeeally cheap, our strenght is basically surpass our enemies in number,so... just put tons of bodies!

And that's it. My opinion may differ from all of you due not all play enviorments are the same, but I hope it helps to show you that it's not a bad army and it's a great addon to Chaos keyword based armies. Not everything here is pitch black guys.

Have fun.

PS: Hope you undersdtand my poor english considering I don't come from a english spoken country.

**exliontamer**

Responded to your points inline. I appreciate your points and your optimism, but neither make Renegades any better than their poor rules.

Zmanzeta wrote:
After reading all the posts wrote here until now, IMHO, I feel the problem here is lots of people were used to play R&H like they did in 7th edition with Vraks armies withs tons of artillery (because everyone here should admit that IA13 wasn't specially great) and considering now artillery models aren't something specially dangerous, the general opinion is that: R&H is a bad army.
Bad, boring, and poorly written/edited rules...all three have conspired to make them nearly unplayable, even for fun. The fun part is opinion, the other stuff is demonstratively true. I will concede the point about wanting to play them like in 7th, but hey that's the models I have so you know, it's not bad to hope that the models you own will be remotely useful with the new edition's rules. Guess it's just bad luck for me there.

My opinion is... it is just a bit troublesome now compared to what it was before, that's all, but it's a very funny and useful army. Except for shooting units of renegade militia (where it's very hard for them to make real damage even with HB, HS, GL or mortars) for the rest of the army I found all units useful in one or another way. Not OP but useful, so I think that's the "problem" here: we don't have units that make very great damage for few points (power points of normal points, it doesn't matter) so we can't trust that spamming one unit will solve all our problems (even the malefic lord is now 100% trustable).
Let me be very clear here. I don't want to spam overpowered units. I want a variety of artillery, infantry bodies and other stuff that looks good and plays well on the battlefield. I want rules that aren't a complete joke and afterthought, and that are at least as competitive as some of the other rules we've seen in 8th. Renegades might just have the absolute worst army-wides in the game right now. I can't think of worse ones.

I don't know you guys but for example I love to surpass my enemies in a 1:5 relationship and knowing that no matter how much dakka they have, it will be not enough to kill all my army. Or just play with lots of artillery models and reduce enemy units to dust and ashes that will cover my tanks' wheels.

We have lots of useful options, not only just spamming Malefic lords until the end of times...

To finish I would like to just point a few examples:

- Renegade Militia units are not bad with covenant of Khorne and CCW/autopistol combo, but I think this unit is great for one thing: spamming flamers. One flamer every models in a unit of 20 models are 4 flamers per squad, enough to reduces into ashes a 5 man space marine squad. In this case, I prefer those guys over cultists. With shooting Renegade militia units I have a weird feeling... They can use much more equipment than cultists but they really hit very poorly...
If the best thing you can say about a unit is "they can spam flamers" and spam = 4...well I'm just not convinced. I can certainly think of better ways to spend 108 points even within the Renegades army list. For example a Chimera with dual heavy flamers is pretty close to strictly better in almost every case and has no morale issues. And it can transport my min squads of Plasma Marauders where they need to go! But if you are talking strictly warm bodies to soak up charges and fire I'd rather play my guys counts as Guard and get 25 conscripts supported by a Commissar for the points.

- Renegade Command Squad are great for their banners but I prefer them to have LD8-9 in whole army (with fanatic rule & using a CP it's very easy to have this LD value) by just buying some vox casters. Combined with Enforcers, you have almost a fearless army and that can be only good, don't you think?
The investment of points in vox is debatable, especially if that CP you spend to reroll your 1s or 2s nets you another 1 or 2 and you are stuck knee deep in poop soup with LD4/5, but what isn't debatable is the fact that Commissars are just strictly better than Enforcers.

- Macharius family, Malcador family and Baneblade are great lords of war with all kind of flavours, so I think we cannot complain about this (but I have to admit I would love to see a chaotic shadowsword). I don not own a Minotaur so I don't know how usefull it is but considering it's profile, looks a decent option.
Yes access to some of these for Chaos lists is fine, might be fun to support your Daemons with a Baneblade, but Guard has access to everything which just makes them better if you aren't playing any other Chaos in your list. Either way limited access to Guard armor is not a reason to play Renegades or a true benefit in my opinion

- Leman Russ family are great option even without access to IG tank commanders.
Russes are pretty overcosted for their damage potential in this edition, it is also not a reason to play Renegades. I honestly wouldn't even take them in a Guard force but for tank commands, and as you mention we don't get those. Again, Guard wins out.

- This army is now a pure horde army (much more than before), so considering our units are reeeeeally cheap, our strenght is basically surpass our enemies in number,so... just put tons of bodies!
No sadly, it really isn't. The random leadership and poor morale control makes them lose out to Guard on both counts. The anemic special rules are not worth a thing compared to IG commands. And CHEAP? I mean, you must be joking. For strictly worse units we, at best, pay the same as Guard. Conscripts are even less than our supposed fodder unit. It isn't even close. Hell Orks even have us beat for a cheap fodder unit that might actually hit something due to effective BS3+ at 20+ models on Gretchin. If anything I think we are an MSU Marauder and Disciple army with maybe some artillery support. Drown the enemy in targets, not bodies has been my success route so far.

And that's it. My opinion may differ from all of you due not all play enviorments are the same, but I hope it helps to show you that it's not a bad army and it's a great addon to Chaos keyword based armies. Not everything here is pitch black guys.

Have fun.
All my comments above are not to shout you down, your optimism is totally admirable. I am just trying to show you that you don't need to try to polish a turd. Since you can effectively use the exact same models to represent almost everything, you lose nothing (power, fluff, fun, or rules) by running your Renegades as "Traitor" Guard, in fact you GAIN everything. Guard is strictly better in nearly every way, and until they get nerfed or we get a fair look and maybe a day's worth of quality control out of Forge World Renegades will sadly continue to not only be a poor choice for a competitive army, but not a particularly fun or fluffy choice either.

PS: Hope you undersdtand my poor english considering I don't come from a english spoken country.
Your English is great, don't ever worry. Far better than my Spanish.

**Elroniel**

With GW's relatively quickly FAQ's and rebalancing with Codex releases, I think we stand to see a few of the horde armies gain .... well, at least some limitations. They've said themselves that hordes being strong was intentional - but I also think they're starting to realize that armies like R&H simply don't have the tools to compete toe-to-toe with the more pure-bred GW Horde armies. Here's hopes that FW will release another FAQ or the slim chance of a FW Codex for R&H. (There's also the even slimmer chance of R&H being featured in a GW IG Codex, but good luck on that one.)

**Zmanzeta**

exliontamer wrote:
Responded to your points inline. I appreciate your points and your optimism, but neither make Renegades any better than their poor rules.

Zmanzeta wrote:
After reading all the posts wrote here until now, IMHO, I feel the problem here is lots of people were used to play R&H like they did in 7th edition with Vraks armies withs tons of artillery (because everyone here should admit that IA13 wasn't specially great) and considering now artillery models aren't something specially dangerous, the general opinion is that: R&H is a bad army.
Bad, boring, and poorly written/edited rules...all three have conspired to make them nearly unplayable, even for fun. The fun part is opinion, the other stuff is demonstratively true. I will concede the point about wanting to play them like in 7th, but hey that's the models I have so you know, it's not bad to hope that the models you own will be remotely useful with the new edition's rules. Guess it's just bad luck for me there.

My opinion is... it is just a bit troublesome now compared to what it was before, that's all, but it's a very funny and useful army. Except for shooting units of renegade militia (where it's very hard for them to make real damage even with HB, HS, GL or mortars) for the rest of the army I found all units useful in one or another way. Not OP but useful, so I think that's the "problem" here: we don't have units that make very great damage for few points (power points of normal points, it doesn't matter) so we can't trust that spamming one unit will solve all our problems (even the malefic lord is now 100% trustable).
Let me be very clear here. I don't want to spam overpowered units. I want a variety of artillery, infantry bodies and other stuff that looks good and plays well on the battlefield. I want rules that aren't a complete joke and afterthought, and that are at least as competitive as some of the other rules we've seen in 8th. Renegades might just have the absolute worst army-wides in the game right now. I can't think of worse ones.

I don't know you guys but for example I love to surpass my enemies in a 1:5 relationship and knowing that no matter how much dakka they have, it will be not enough to kill all my army. Or just play with lots of artillery models and reduce enemy units to dust and ashes that will cover my tanks' wheels.

We have lots of useful options, not only just spamming Malefic lords until the end of times...

To finish I would like to just point a few examples:

- Renegade Militia units are not bad with covenant of Khorne and CCW/autopistol combo, but I think this unit is great for one thing: spamming flamers. One flamer every models in a unit of 20 models are 4 flamers per squad, enough to reduces into ashes a 5 man space marine squad. In this case, I prefer those guys over cultists. With shooting Renegade militia units I have a weird feeling... They can use much more equipment than cultists but they really hit very poorly...
If the best thing you can say about a unit is "they can spam flamers" and spam = 4...well I'm just not convinced. I can certainly think of better ways to spend 108 points even within the Renegades army list. For example a Chimera with dual heavy flamers is pretty close to strictly better in almost every case and has no morale issues. And it can transport my min squads of Plasma Marauders where they need to go! But if you are talking strictly warm bodies to soak up charges and fire I'd rather play my guys counts as Guard and get 25 conscripts supported by a Commissar for the points.

- Renegade Command Squad are great for their banners but I prefer them to have LD8-9 in whole army (with fanatic rule & using a CP it's very easy to have this LD value) by just buying some vox casters. Combined with Enforcers, you have almost a fearless army and that can be only good, don't you think?
The investment of points in vox is debatable, especially if that CP you spend to reroll your 1s or 2s nets you another 1 or 2 and you are stuck knee deep in poop soup with LD4/5, but what isn't debatable is the fact that Commissars are just strictly better than Enforcers.

- Macharius family, Malcador family and Baneblade are great lords of war with all kind of flavours, so I think we cannot complain about this (but I have to admit I would love to see a chaotic shadowsword). I don not own a Minotaur so I don't know how usefull it is but considering it's profile, looks a decent option.
Yes access to some of these for Chaos lists is fine, might be fun to support your Daemons with a Baneblade, but Guard has access to everything which just makes them better if you aren't playing any other Chaos in your list. Either way limited access to Guard armor is not a reason to play Renegades or a true benefit in my opinion

- Leman Russ family are great option even without access to IG tank commanders.
Russes are pretty overcosted for their damage potential in this edition, it is also not a reason to play Renegades. I honestly wouldn't even take them in a Guard force but for tank commands, and as you mention we don't get those. Again, Guard wins out.

- This army is now a pure horde army (much more than before), so considering our units are reeeeeally cheap, our strenght is basically surpass our enemies in number,so... just put tons of bodies!
No sadly, it really isn't. The random leadership and poor morale control makes them lose out to Guard on both counts. The anemic special rules are not worth a thing compared to IG commands. And CHEAP? I mean, you must be joking. For strictly worse units we, at best, pay the same as Guard. Conscripts are even less than our supposed fodder unit. It isn't even close. Hell Orks even have us beat for a cheap fodder unit that might actually hit something due to effective BS3+ at 20+ models on Gretchin. If anything I think we are an MSU Marauder and Disciple army with maybe some artillery support. Drown the enemy in targets, not bodies has been my success route so far.

And that's it. My opinion may differ from all of you due not all play enviorments are the same, but I hope it helps to show you that it's not a bad army and it's a great addon to Chaos keyword based armies. Not everything here is pitch black guys.

Have fun.
All my comments above are not to shout you down, your optimism is totally admirable. I am just trying to show you that you don't need to try to polish a turd. Since you can effectively use the exact same models to represent almost everything, you lose nothing (power, fluff, fun, or rules) by running your Renegades as "Traitor" Guard, in fact you GAIN everything. Guard is strictly better in nearly every way, and until they get nerfed or we get a fair look and maybe a day's worth of quality control out of Forge World Renegades will sadly continue to not only be a poor choice for a competitive army, but not a particularly fun or fluffy choice either.

PS: Hope you undersdtand my poor english considering I don't come from a english spoken country.
Your English is great, don't ever worry. Far better than my Spanish.

Yeah, probably it's just that I'm too much optimistic, I agree with you.

I agree too that conscripts are basically same as renegade militia but if I remember right (due I don't have a Imperium 2 copy in front of me right now), they don't have access to any special weapon or heavy weapon, so for me, they are worst due this.

Probably my point of view is heavily influenced due in my GW local store, we don't play tournament's list so it's much more softer. This army is unmerciful when you play with it, but I think you can still have a good winning ratio with it.

**techsoldaten**

While I wish R&H was more powerful, Zmazela's comments ring true.

The one R&H player I know is doing exactly this, spamming flamers and Leman Russ tanks. He has games where he loses 20% of his troops just to morale effects, but it's hard to take all his armor off the board.

That said, these are not great options, just good ones. They keep him from being tabled and there's little of the flavor of last edition.

**exliontamer**

Yeah, probably it's just that I'm too much optimistic, I agree with you.

I agree too that conscripts are basically same as renegade militia but if I remember right (due I don't have a Imperium 2 copy in front of me right now), they don't have access to any special weapon or heavy weapon, so for me, they are worst due this.

Probably my point of view is heavily influenced due in my GW local store, we don't play tournament's list so it's much more softer. This army is unmerciful when you play with it, but I think you can still have a good winning ratio with it.

I think we just disagree on what constitutes a good speedbump...or what we are using expendable units for. Conscripts being 3pts a piece and having an upward model count of 50 is their value to me, not what wargear they can take (which you are correct, is none). I wouldn't ever run a 20 man militia squad with flamers because those points are just being thrown away on a unit that's only value is tying up other units in CC until it dies/collapses to morale. Better to spend the 80 pts with no upgrades as the flamers will get average one shot per game, because either the opponent will stay out of 8" range or you will get into 8" once and then charge or be charged (okay two in this instance due to OW, unless they charge from 9" away haha). I would always rather take special weapons on min Marauder squads who have 3+ to hit (so plasma, melta is good here, not so much flamers) and can take the ability to have a -1 to be hit and +2 to their saves in cover. That is huge for objective camping as they are basically a Marine Tac Squad when in cover, for 44ish points! (Sure less Toughness, but the -1 to be hit is better in most cases than an extra point of T)

This is all before even mentioning that the variable morale, worse WS/BS and 6+ save makes Militia strictly worse than Guard Infantry FOR THE EXACT SAME AMOUNT OF POINTS. There is no way to shine that up, that is just FW not communicating with GW about what the basis for points valuation is in this edition.

You are correct that point of view is most certainly affected by opponents. I have been playing the army, changing lists, trying different configurations for weeks and the only truth I have found is that player skill wins the day. If you are against a poor player you can certainly win with this army, as always, but against a better player you have zero chance to win as both their list (unless they are also playing Renegades) and/or play will be better than yours. Against a similarly skilled player you are at a major disadvantage and rely heavily on dice rolls in your favor and against theirs, which is no way to be. So yes you can win games with them, I am not arguing you can't, but why put yourself through the unpleasantness of having a bad army list when you can just run them as Guard and call it a day.

While I wish R&H was more powerful, Zmazela's comments ring true.

The one R&H player I know is doing exactly this, spamming flamers and Leman Russ tanks. He has games where he loses 20% of his troops just to morale effects, but it's hard to take all his armor off the board.

That said, these are not great options, just good ones. They keep him from being tabled and there's little of the flavor of last edition.

Yeah I mean, hey, if you want to keep playing Renegades with their poor rules be my guest. I am only trying to point out our situation and propose a (hopefully short-term) solution here. I still can't see a single thing you gain from running the Renegades rules though, other than a sense of moral superiority that you get from having won games with a sub-standard army list.

Two additional flamers on an already inferior infantry squad? Tanks that are worse than the two other armies (Guard/GSC) that get to field them because of zero access to command re-rolls? None of this is convincing me.

Again, sorry to be such a bummer here but this is the sorry state of this army at the moment. I certainly hope that it changes in the future. And again, I'm not saying that we need to be OP or cleaning up the top tables at tournaments, I am simply saying I want our units to be fairly costed for what they are, and I want armywide special rules that aren't completely useless (Covenants) or major downsides for no reason (Uncertain Worth). Let's remember that the reason Uncertain Worth was even a thing in 7th was that our units were almost all inferior (mostly BS-wise) and were costed as such. In fact UW was much better because the min roll you could get was 5, not the abysmal 3 that it is now! We seem to have been saddled with the same or worse inferior stats on many of our units, but end up paying the same points for them that Guard do for better stats. The one exception is the Heavy Weapons Squad which is almost certainly a typo...something the IA:AM book has WAYYY too many of for something that was professionally produced by a gaming company.

So yeah, starting at the end of my current league I will be running my models as counts-as Traitor Guard and see what I can come up with there. Or perhaps I will finally paint up my Prospero box as Alpha Legion and have my models support as cultists, with maybe some armor/artillery to back them up. That sort of fits the story of Siege of Vraks...except reversed

**Zmanzeta**

Like I said, I have good winning ratio with this army and my oponents are great players, so I don't think this army is THAT bad. Just harder to use and with less options than other armies, that's all.

I really agree with you that renegade militia is overcosted and should cost the same as conscripts IMHO, but that doesn't means it's useless. Saying that, it's true that disciples and marauder squads are the best of this army, but in my case, I prefer quantity over quality. I prefer to send 20 renegade miltia to do the job than send a chimera and it works for me.

I'm not here to convince you to play an army you dislike, so if you like to play them as traitor guard and your oponents don't complain about it (many people likes to argue about anything...),then go for it!

In my case, I don't dislike R&H's set of rules but I agree with you that many points need to be reworked again my FW, but I just play that to have fun and right now this is what I have, so, it's a win-win.

**Niiru**

I know this is a bit of a resurrection of the thread, but it's also the most recent Renegades thread on here so it seemed best to keep things in one place!

Has anyone found any ways of making a renegades detachment worthwhile?

I ask because I was considering adding a detachment of renegades as my 'troops' in a chaos mechanicum army, instead of just plain cultists. Malefic Lords seemed like a nice little boost, and would add psykers which I'm short on.

Reading through this thread though, the people who are saying Renegades are useless and terrible are also saying to take Traitor guard instead... but unless I'm missing something, you can't actually take traitor guard.

I mean I guess you can in narrative games, or in general games where you're making up your own rules.

So whats the curent thinking?

**exliontamer**

Traitor Guard are just Guard painted to look chaos-y. Or literally Renegade models using the Guard rules. That's all. Purely cosmetic. Of course you can't ally in anything else Chaos at that point...but at least you can play pure Renegades and not feel like poop. Or hell, ally in some "Heretic" Imperial units...whatever works.

As things stand the best "support" Renegades can offer is a Supreme Command Detachment full of Malefic Lords and a Baneblade. Can't see why you would want any of the Renegades troop options over Cultists...especially now that the CSM codex is out. Tide of Traitors alone makes Cultists superior. Alpha Legion cultists are great objective holders. Take a Dark Apostle and a blob and there you go.

**McGibs**

-Maelific Lords are great, but expect a FAQ nerf eventually (they're honestly pretty broken)
-None of the troops are good. Take CSM cultists if you want chaff troops (they get legion traits, character buffs, can respawn with stratagems, and have better stats for the same points).
-For infantry, Disciples and Marauders are good veteran style troopers, carrying special weapons and riding around in Chimeras or Valkaries, or sitting in cover with sniper rifles for cheap plinkers.
-Access to guard artillery is good, and something that CSM can't really do. Basilisk batteries and Colossus Bombards seem pretty decent to reach out and touch things while short/mid ranged CSM units apply pressure.
-Everything else CSM can do better, like Spawn > Ogryns.

For a detachment, I'd say bring a vanguard with a psyker lord, a bunch of mauraders, and a handful of artillery pieces for spice.

**exliontamer**

McGibs wrote:
Colossus Bombards seem pretty decent

Just curious, why would you take a Colossus? The Earthshaker Batteries are S9 and get to "re-roll" their number of shots. And cover seems underused this edition as to make ignoring it pretty meh. Plus I have to think 9 times out of 10 you are going to be pointing these things at targets they will never enjoy the benefit of cover anyway. Two Earthshakers is 160 pts, a Colossus is 150 + whatever secondary weapon option you take. Sure a Colossus can move, but why would it? Seems that in almost every case I'd rather just have a sea of Earthshakers...but that's just me.

**McGibs**

*shrug*
They get the benefit of being more durable and smaller footprint than two basilisks at the cost of a little firepower. The meta I play in uses 50% obscured = cover (rather than the garbage core cover rules), so any sort of barrage shooting without LoS gives cover. Negating cover makes up for the worse strength when hitting infantry.
Two earthshakers probably are a better choice, but I don't think the margin is so wide to make it a no brainer.

**exliontamer**

McGibs wrote:
*shrug*
They get the benefit of being more durable and smaller footprint than two basilisks at the cost of a little firepower. The meta I play in uses 50% obscured = cover (rather than the garbage core cover rules), so any sort of barrage shooting without LoS gives cover. Negating cover makes up for the worse strength when hitting infantry.
Two earthshakers probably are a better choice, but I don't think the margin is so wide to make it a no brainer.

Gotcha. It does make sense in some corner cases...though I don't own any I do own two Griffons and I take them from time to time despite the shots being weaker because they are cheapo and that makes it seem more appealing to me.

For the guy who asked the initial question, I am sorry to have neglected the humble Earthshaker Battery. Don't know why, honestly, because I can't say enough good things about massed Earthshaker fire...a pile of Earthshakers turn MEQs into Guardsmen...reliably take out light armor...pelt monsters/high W characters with multi-dmg fire. So good for their points. Gotta keep them protected from DS and charges though.

**Niiru**

exliontamer wrote:
McGibs wrote:
*shrug*
They get the benefit of being more durable and smaller footprint than two basilisks at the cost of a little firepower. The meta I play in uses 50% obscured = cover (rather than the garbage core cover rules), so any sort of barrage shooting without LoS gives cover. Negating cover makes up for the worse strength when hitting infantry.
Two earthshakers probably are a better choice, but I don't think the margin is so wide to make it a no brainer.

Gotcha. It does make sense in some corner cases...though I don't own any I do own two Griffons and I take them from time to time despite the shots being weaker because they are cheapo and that makes it seem more appealing to me.

For the guy who asked the initial question, I am sorry to have neglected the humble Earthshaker Battery. Don't know why, honestly, because I can't say enough good things about massed Earthshaker fire...a pile of Earthshakers turn MEQs into Guardsmen...reliably take out light armor...pelt monsters/high W characters with multi-dmg fire. So good for their points. Gotta keep them protected from DS and charges though.

Aren't Earthshakers pretty expensive though?

It's a shame renegades can't take Cyclops Demolition vehicles. That would bring some Chaos.