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ProwlerPC wrote:I have never once been convinced that he was alive in the first place.
If you want to maintain this conclusion, do not read Dark Imperium by Guy Haley. Or at the very least skip any conversation he has with a minostorum priest in that novel.
That's a story set 10k years ago. It could be no more historically accurate than the Illiad.
P.S. I'm posting this from the perspective of someone from the 41st millennium. The way I see it, the stories of the Horus Heresy are the legends that people in the 41st Millenium tell their children of the "Heroism of the Emperor".
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/28 20:40:08
2000 Khorne Bloodbound (Skullfiend Tribe- Aqshy)
1000 Tzeentch Arcanites (Pyrofane Cult - Hysh) in progress 2000 Slaves to Darkness (Ravagers)
If you want to maintain this conclusion, do not read Dark Imperium by Guy Haley. Or at the very least skip any conversation he has with a minostorum priest in that novel.
The mad ravings of a religious zealot are hardly good evidence of the Emperor being alive.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/06/28 21:08:14
If you want to maintain this conclusion, do not read Dark Imperium by Guy Haley. Or at the very least skip any conversation he has with a minostorum priest in that novel.
The mad ravings of a religious zealot are hardly good evidence of the Emperor being alive.
Eh? It isn't the zealot's POV, beliefs or ravings that provides the evidence. It's the skeptic who actually stood before the Throne and had an actual chat with Empy that provides pretty solid evidence.
Word of Demigod: 'So I had a chat with dad last saturday (century). He was totally a jerk, and alive, but not a god.'
Eh? It isn't the zealot's POV, beliefs or ravings that provides the evidence. It's the skeptic who actually stood before the Throne and had an actual chat with Empy that provides pretty solid evidence.
Word of Demigod: 'So I had a chat with dad last saturday (century). He was totally a jerk, and alive, but not a god.'
Oh. Hrm. So Empy's so starved for conversation that he'll have a chat with anyone who stands in front of his corpse these days? Poor guy. Someone should get him a text to speech device or something.
Eh? It isn't the zealot's POV, beliefs or ravings that provides the evidence. It's the skeptic who actually stood before the Throne and had an actual chat with Empy that provides pretty solid evidence. Word of Demigod: 'So I had a chat with dad last saturday (century). He was totally a jerk, and alive, but not a god.'
Oh. Hrm. So Empy's so starved for conversation that he'll have a chat with anyone who stands in front of his corpse these days? Poor guy. Someone should get him a text to speech device or something.
It's not canon, it's better than canon!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/28 21:31:21
EnTyme wrote:
That's a story set 10k years ago. It could be no more historically accurate than the Illiad.
P.S. I'm posting this from the perspective of someone from the 41st millennium. The way I see it, the stories of the Horus Heresy are the legends that people in the 41st Millenium tell their children of the "Heroism of the Emperor".
The Dark Imperium is about the current point in the timeline, not 10,000 years ago.
If you want to maintain this conclusion, do not read Dark Imperium by Guy Haley. Or at the very least skip any conversation he has with a minostorum priest in that novel.
The mad ravings of a religious zealot are hardly good evidence of the Emperor being alive.
We're into spoiler tags, i think:
Spoiler:
It's a skeptic who was there lying to the zealot after realizing faith might be useful while thinking his own thoughts about what really happened.
The book has quite a bit about what Roboute thinks about the Ecclesiarchy and why he didn't go head to head with them as a skeptic vs zealots. If anything was an actual character arc in the novel, I'd say it was this eventual complete assumption of the role of statesmen and the acceptance of such pragmatism on the part of Guilliman.
Guilliman ends the novel as more than just the Lord Commander of the Imperium, but as the voice of the emperor. The one who speaks with his voice. So he ends up totally embracing all the crazy (but awesome) ideas of the Ministorum, not as a believer, but as one who uses them as a part of ruling a government.
Guilliman is presented as very reflective and thoughtful throughout the novel and the whole point of his conversation with the priest is that he knows the truth but is choosing to lie to the priest. The emperor is alive and is conscious. Enough that Guilliman left his audience finally understanding he was never a son, but simply a tool. And that the Emperor had an emotional state that he left knowing about. This is a necessary part of the conversation with the priest, if it is to make any sense at all. The lie is that the Emperor loves his subjects. It's a lie because Guilliman knows the emperor doesn't love them, but sees them (just like he sees Guilliman himself) as merely a tool.
He is also not at all presented as an unreliable narrator. If he was, that would totally undo the whole point of that scene and probably the larger character arc of Guilliman himself.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/06/28 23:21:33
Balance in pick up games? Two people, each with their own goals for the game, design half a board game on their own without knowing the layout of the board and hope it all works out. Good luck with that. The faster you can find like minded individuals who want the same things from the game as you, the better.
The Astronomicon is different from the Golden Throne. The Golden Throne keeps a shattered warp gateway in the middle of Terra from exploding into a warp rift. It was originally meant to be a tap into the Webway, but Magnus accidentally broke it when he tried to warn the Emperor about Horus turning to chaos.
After he did that, the Emperor shackled himself to the Throne, to keep the portal intact, because if he didn't, it would tear open and unending hordes of demons would pour out onto Terra. During the battle with Horus, Malcador sat on the Throne, and it literally turned him to dust, for the couple of hours he sat there. He was considered the strongest human psyker of the era.
The Astronomicon is completely different. That is powered by a ton of psykers creating the beacon in the warp.
Selym wrote: Huh. I had always thought the Astronomicon was directly linked to ol' Empy...
That's at least how it used to be. Emperor focuses the Astronomican. That whole Golden Throne being some sort of portal or whatever is some weird new fluff and thus in suspect (and by 'new' I mean post-second-edition...)
djones520 wrote: The Astronomicon is different from the Golden Throne. The Golden Throne keeps a shattered warp gateway in the middle of Terra from exploding into a warp rift. It was originally meant to be a tap into the Webway, but Magnus accidentally broke it when he tried to warn the Emperor about Horus turning to chaos.
After he did that, the Emperor shackled himself to the Throne, to keep the portal intact, because if he didn't, it would tear open and unending hordes of demons would pour out onto Terra. During the battle with Horus, Malcador sat on the Throne, and it literally turned him to dust, for the couple of hours he sat there. He was considered the strongest human psyker of the era.
The Astronomicon is completely different. That is powered by a ton of psykers creating the beacon in the warp.
That seems off. My understanding of the Astronomicon is it _is_ the Emperor's doing, but in his near-dead state he requires the constant flow of psyker souls to maintain it and himself, most of this is automatically regulated by the Throne. Both were unnecessary before Horus nearly killed him- the Emperor free to wander around while maintaining the Astronomicon and mind-frelling everyone around him.
We do actually know up until this point that for the last 10,000 years, the Emperor was not dead. I'm not sure about any new fluff about it but I do have evidence from the 2nd edition Titan Legions game, which is set at the exact same time as the Warhammer 40,000 game. 999.M41.
The story is about the Emperor trying to save the Imperium from a large Ork invasion. It is on page 69 of the Titan Legions Codex Titanicus book. Here is what it says:
"The Emperor knew that he must save his people. If Gork and Mork unleashed their hordes then any unprepared worlds would be swept aside by a green tide of death.
The Emperor bent his thoughts to the task. Across Human space, within the range of the Astronomicon, Imperial Tarot began to foretell disaster. Commanders consulting them found all the signs of impending catastrophe on a cosmic scale.
In the Segmentum Obscura, Battlefleets were recalled and prepared for war. On the homeworlds of the Adeptus Astartes, Space Marines reached for their weapons, knowing their time of destiny was near. On the edges of the Eye of Terror, the Titan Legions of the Adeptus Mechanicus roused their ancient war machines. Having surveyed his Empire and seen it was ready the dying immortal within the Golden Throne prepared himself for the conflict to come."
So we know he is still alive right up to that point.
"Khorne is a noble warrior who respects strength and bravery, who takes no joy in destroying the weak, and considers the helpless unworthy of his wrath. It is said that fate will spare any brave warrior who calls upon Khorne's name and pledges his soul to the blood god. It is also said that Khorne's daemons will hunt down and destroy any warrior who betrays his honour by killing a helpless innocent or murdering in cold blood..."
from the Renegades supplement for Epic Space Marine, page 54-55
EnTyme wrote:
That's a story set 10k years ago. It could be no more historically accurate than the Illiad.
P.S. I'm posting this from the perspective of someone from the 41st millennium. The way I see it, the stories of the Horus Heresy are the legends that people in the 41st Millenium tell their children of the "Heroism of the Emperor".
The Dark Imperium is about the current point in the timeline, not 10,000 years ago.
If you want to maintain this conclusion, do not read Dark Imperium by Guy Haley. Or at the very least skip any conversation he has with a minostorum priest in that novel.
The mad ravings of a religious zealot are hardly good evidence of the Emperor being alive.
We're into spoiler tags, i think:
Spoiler:
It's a skeptic who was there lying to the zealot after realizing faith might be useful while thinking his own thoughts about what really happened.
The book has quite a bit about what Roboute thinks about the Ecclesiarchy and why he didn't go head to head with them as a skeptic vs zealots. If anything was an actual character arc in the novel, I'd say it was this eventual complete assumption of the role of statesmen and the acceptance of such pragmatism on the part of Guilliman.
Guilliman ends the novel as more than just the Lord Commander of the Imperium, but as the voice of the emperor. The one who speaks with his voice. So he ends up totally embracing all the crazy (but awesome) ideas of the Ministorum, not as a believer, but as one who uses them as a part of ruling a government.
Guilliman is presented as very reflective and thoughtful throughout the novel and the whole point of his conversation with the priest is that he knows the truth but is choosing to lie to the priest. The emperor is alive and is conscious. Enough that Guilliman left his audience finally understanding he was never a son, but simply a tool. And that the Emperor had an emotional state that he left knowing about. This is a necessary part of the conversation with the priest, if it is to make any sense at all. The lie is that the Emperor loves his subjects. It's a lie because Guilliman knows the emperor doesn't love them, but sees them (just like he sees Guilliman himself) as merely a tool.
He is also not at all presented as an unreliable narrator. If he was, that would totally undo the whole point of that scene and probably the larger character arc of Guilliman himself.
Spoiler:
I think it's worth noting yet at the same time there's potential for more growth as a lot of the time you saw Gulliman go "He's not a god....isn't he?" I could see Gulliman slowly coming to belive in his father's divinity. which in and of itself could make for some VERY intreasting lore if another Primarch comes back, and Gulliman has begin to suspect his father may in fact be, effectivly a god."
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
I think it's worth noting yet at the same time there's potential for more growth as a lot of the time you saw Gulliman go "He's not a god....isn't he?" I could see Gulliman slowly coming to belive in his father's divinity. which in and of itself could make for some VERY intreasting lore if another Primarch comes back, and Gulliman has begin to suspect his father may in fact be, effectivly a god."
The secret conversation continues!
Spoiler:
That's a really good point. I also like how Guilliman is doing structured thinking with his theoretical/practical breakdown. It really is only a matter of time for the practical to outweigh the theoretical. Even more than it has when he realized he needed to allow the Emperor to be the centre of the imperial faith. Like Practical. The Emperor is such a powerful psyker that he can project his will and power across an entire galaxy. Theoretical. Such a being can plausibly be described as a god. Practical. The Emperor is divine. That sort of thing.
Though given Guilliman's involvement in the censure of Lorgar, I'm not sure it'll be anything other than a political practicality or a matter of semantics. Though Guilliman does seem to be starting to accept that mistakes were made in the past.
I think more loyalist primarchs coming back is something that is going to happen. GW has been a big character model kick for a good while now. I don't know how they are going to do it though. Triumverate boxes don't really make sense outside of the coming storm campaign. Maybe the series of novels that Dark Imperium starts off will have the hints about the next loyalist primarch to return. Maybe Russ will come out of that tear that the Wolfspear chapter is now guarding.
Roadkill Zombie wrote: We do actually know up until this point that for the last 10,000 years, the Emperor was not dead. I'm not sure about any new fluff about it but I do have evidence from the 2nd edition Titan Legions game, which is set at the exact same time as the Warhammer 40,000 game. 999.M41.
The story is about the Emperor trying to save the Imperium from a large Ork invasion. It is on page 69 of the Titan Legions Codex Titanicus book. Here is what it says:
[spoilered for brevity not spoilers]
Spoiler:
"The Emperor knew that he must save his people. If Gork and Mork unleashed their hordes then any unprepared worlds would be swept aside by a green tide of death.
The Emperor bent his thoughts to the task. Across Human space, within the range of the Astronomicon, Imperial Tarot began to foretell disaster. Commanders consulting them found all the signs of impending catastrophe on a cosmic scale.
In the Segmentum Obscura, Battlefleets were recalled and prepared for war. On the homeworlds of the Adeptus Astartes, Space Marines reached for their weapons, knowing their time of destiny was near. On the edges of the Eye of Terror, the Titan Legions of the Adeptus Mechanicus roused their ancient war machines. Having surveyed his Empire and seen it was ready the dying immortal within the Golden Throne prepared himself for the conflict to come."
So we know he is still alive right up to that point.
I really like the Imperial Tarot and wish it would feature even more often. It's such a cool idea that divination practices could tune into the mind of the Emperor and give people warnings. It's still present, but I'd like to see a novel where the main character either is a user of the tarot or regularly consults one. As a means of maybe even bringing the emperor into the novel as a veiled character interpreted through that lens. Much in the way they must have experienced his warning and his desire not to see humanity destroyed by a great Waaagh in the Titan Legion 2nd edition book.
Balance in pick up games? Two people, each with their own goals for the game, design half a board game on their own without knowing the layout of the board and hope it all works out. Good luck with that. The faster you can find like minded individuals who want the same things from the game as you, the better.
I think it's worth noting yet at the same time there's potential for more growth as a lot of the time you saw Gulliman go "He's not a god....isn't he?" I could see Gulliman slowly coming to belive in his father's divinity. which in and of itself could make for some VERY intreasting lore if another Primarch comes back, and Gulliman has begin to suspect his father may in fact be, effectivly a god."
Spoiler:
While it's clear he has some doubt there at the end [well, the abrupt non-end at the back of the book], it's also clear that he views 'Dad' as an utter tosser who used them and prepared them poorly [them being mankind in general and the primarchs in particular]. And there isn't any doubt in Roboute's mind about that.
It will be interesting to see who pops up next. The Lion might be more comfortable with some things, while Russ just might break stuff (little things, like the Ecclesiarchy). The Khan and the Raven are just big question marks in my head, and Dorn might just be horrified or be a proper toady.
2000 Khorne Bloodbound (Skullfiend Tribe- Aqshy)
1000 Tzeentch Arcanites (Pyrofane Cult - Hysh) in progress
2000 Slaves to Darkness (Ravagers)
