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Both are Aeldari and so compete for the same Elites slot. I'm trying to work out if there is any reason to take Scorpions over Mandrakes.

Points Cost: Identical

Deployment: Identical

Movement:
Scorpion 7"
Mandrake 8"

Win: Mandrake

Shooting:
Scorpion BS3+12" Pistol 1 s4 AP0, -3 AP on a 6 to wound
Mandrake BS3+ 24" Assault 2 s4 AP -1, Additional Mortal Wound (so you still do the normal wound as well) on a 6 to wound.

Win: Mandrake

Assault:
Scorpion WS3+ 2 S4 AP0 D1 attacks, plus 1 chance to roll a 6 for a mortal wound
Mandrake WS3+ 3 S4 AP0 D1 attacks

Draw

Basic Defenses
Scorpion 3+ Armour
Mandrake 5+ Invuln

Draw

Special Rules

Scorpion: Battle focus (useless), Shadow Strike (Situational +1 to hit)
Mandrake: -1 to Hit for enemies targetting them, Power Form Pain (6+FnP, Reroll Charges, +1 to Hit, Immune to Morale)

Win: Mandrake

Am I missing something huge?

One is Eldar, one is Dark Eldar? If your going for an all Eldar/Dark Eldar army then you only choose the one from your faction.

So, sure, if you want to just go for a theme of using only one of the Aeldari sub factions, that's pretty minor though. I don't think I've played 'pure' one or the other since the moment I could mix them. Is there any gameplay rather than fluff benefit?

Are there any buffs from characters that could swing it either way?

Most character buffs are fairly specific, so mixing across Eldar factions without going Ynnari would deny you that.

Your comparisons also seem somewhat arbitrary and very subjective - considering a 3+ save to be a 'draw' with a 5+ invulnerable, for example. With the increased prevalence normal saves get to enjoy now would not consider a 3+ save to be 'on par' with a 5+ invulnerable.

Also feel like you downplay a 1/6th chance per model to cause a mortal wound every turn in melee vs getting one extra St4 melee attack. If you're going to rate a 3+ save vs a 5+ invulnerable a draw, how is a chance to cause a mortal wound equivalent to one extra strength 4 melee attack that has no AP?

Regardless, both units have their place depending entirely on the rest of your army - Mandrakes seem better at causing damage through shooting and are mostly there to tarpit and harass backfield units in an assault. Striking Scorpions seem better at attritting non-melee-specialist units down in melee. So which you pick depends more on your army and what role you need a respective unit to fill.

At a glance the Mandrakes look better, but as mentioned above a 3+ armour save is waaaaay better against the majority of weapons than a 5+ Invuln (meaning the Mandrakes will drop like flies to bolt guns and lasguns where the Scorpions may survive).

Mortal wounds will be rare but that's also pretty huge - particularly against powerful characters, etc. So perhaps Striking Scorpions would be better against large infantry based characters with 2+ armour and invulnerable saves, etc?

I don't recall how good/buffs the Scorpion exarch is.

Drager wrote:


Am I missing something huge?

Yes.

A unit of 5 Scorpions will produce 18.7 attacks plus about 1 mortal wound.
Mandrakes have 16 attacks.

A 3+ armor save is just as good at a 5++ against AP2. Against AP1 or AP0 it's way better. You also won't see many AP3/4 weapons targeting them, which at T3 makes them more survivable to small arms fire.

Scorpions can shoot into combat.

Exarch has 2 wounds.

Scorpions at least have option for a claw.

+1 to hit in shooting AND combat against a target in cover.

GhostRecon wrote:
Most character buffs are fairly specific, so mixing across Eldar factions without going Ynnari would deny you that.

Your comparisons also seem somewhat arbitrary and very subjective - considering a 3+ save to be a 'draw' with a 5+ invulnerable, for example. With the increased prevalence normal saves get to enjoy now would not consider a 3+ save to be 'on par' with a 5+ invulnerable.

Also feel like you downplay a 1/6th chance per model to cause a mortal wound every turn in melee vs getting one extra St4 melee attack. If you're going to rate a 3+ save vs a 5+ invulnerable a draw, how is a chance to cause a mortal wound equivalent to one extra strength 4 melee attack that has no AP?

Regardless, both units have their place depending entirely on the rest of your army - Mandrakes seem better at causing damage through shooting and are mostly there to tarpit and harass backfield units in an assault. Striking Scorpions seem better at attritting non-melee-specialist units down in melee. So which you pick depends more on your army and what role you need a respective unit to fill.

My ratings where just a guess. I was hoping for criticism.

The reason I rate 5++ and 3+ a draw is because there is a fiar bit of -1 and 0 (at which 3+ is better), -2 (at which they are the same) and -3+ (at which the 5++ is better around).

The reason I rate the 6+ mortal wound equivalent to the extra attack is simply that a 6+ mortal wound chance gives you a 16% extra chance to cause a wound. The exrta attack is significantly better than that against guardsman, worse (but not so much 13.8% after T2) against Marines. Those are the most common targets for these units. the extra attack also synergises better with Doom as does the shooting of the Mandrakes. This makes them better than Scorpions even with both having Farseer support, in fact, it leans even more Mandrake.

Mandrakes also get into melee more reliably and are better at the role you say the scorpions excel at, provided that the we are talking about things with a worse than 3+ save or worse than T4 or both.

Against things tougher than that the mandrakes do better than the scorpions by shooting instead of assaulting.

Can you give me an example of a list in which the scorpions outshine the mandrakes? I can't think of an army build where they do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elbows wrote:
At a glance the Mandrakes look better, but as mentioned above a 3+ armour save is waaaaay better against the majority of weapons than a 5+ Invuln (meaning the Mandrakes will drop like flies to bolt guns and lasguns where the Scorpions may survive).

Mortal wounds will be rare but that's also pretty huge - particularly against powerful characters, etc. So perhaps Striking Scorpions would be better against large infantry based characters with 2+ armour and invulnerable saves, etc?

I don't recall how good/buffs the Scorpion exarch is.

I shoudl probably combine the 5++ and -1 to hit into one thing defensively, the two of them together easily equal the Scorpions save. I should have analysed them like that I think.

Also the Mandrakes also deal mortal wounds, jsut with shooting instead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Daedalus81 wrote:

Drager wrote:


Am I missing something huge?

Yes.

A unit of 5 Scorpions will produce 18.7 attacks plus about 1 mortal wound.
Mandrakes have 16 attacks.

A 3+ armor save is just as good at a 5++ against AP2. Against AP1 or AP0 it's way better. You also won't see many AP3/4 weapons targeting them, which at T3 makes them more survivable to small arms fire.

Scorpions can shoot into combat.

Exarch has 2 wounds.

Scorpions at least have option for a claw.

+1 to hit in shooting AND combat against a target in cover.

These are good points. The mandrakes get the flat +1 to hit in combat from Turn 3 though, so I think that draws it back to about level.

Two wound exarch and the claw are very good things I hadn't thought of! Also pistols shooting into combat. Is that enough to claw back the advantage that mandrakes have in movement, charging, shooting and speical rules?

Scorpion also benefit from cover, whereas Mandrakes do not. Scorpions can also throw a Sunburst Grenade.

Drager wrote:
So, sure, if you want to just go for a theme of using only one of the Aeldari sub factions, that's pretty minor though. I don't think I've played 'pure' one or the other since the moment I could mix them. Is there any gameplay rather than fluff benefit?

Ugh, I hope this doesn't become a standard mindset. Maybe I'm just old, but seeing DE and Craftworld side by side is just plain stupid. Might as well have Nids alongside Terminators. I can't understand why GW allowed this, would have been better just to allow a special Yncarne faction.

Adding a Farseer into the analysis would actually benefit Scorpions more; 2/3 Fate powers only work on Asuryani. Guide isn't going to get much use obviously, but with even basic Farseers able to cast two powers a 5+FNP save plus the re-roll to wounds gives Scorpions the advantage when it comes to synergizing with a Farseer. Add in a Warlock or two and they can get the -1 to hit protective buff and a +1 to hit buff too... though of course that adds to their cost.

Still, again - they're fairly equal units when viewed on their own, it's how they fit into the rest of your army that'll change their role. I'm not an Eldar player so any list I'd make is strictly theorycraft anyhow. If Mandrakes synergize with your list well as a standalone harassment unit I'd take them. If nothing else I love their models, and they definitely enjoy their buffs in 8th ed. Am generally fielding two squads in my Drukhari lists.

xmbk wrote:
]Ugh, I hope this doesn't become a standard mindset. Maybe I'm just old, but seeing DE and Craftworld side by side is just plain stupid.

I've been using Dark Eldar rules to represent a Corsair off-shoot of Saim Hann since 4th edition. Allies made this even easier to portray and I generally don't have access to Forge World models or rules (so using "true" corsairs is out for me)
Now that the all share the <Aeldari> keyword, I have way more versatility in executing my theme.
Some of us like to create intricate backstories for our armies that don't always fit "Just Craftworld" or "Just Dark Eldar". Some of us like the hobby freedom to cross mutlitple kits from different ranges and still use those well-thought out conversions in-game.

Just because you do not agree with the way some players enjoy this hobby, does not mean the support GW gives those players is "stupid"
Also, you really need to read more fluff. CWE and DE team up quite often, or at the very least a single Aeldari life can be long enough to traverse both lifestyles.

-

Another bonus to Scorpions: Ynnari can't use Mandrakes.

I think the Exarch is quite important. The Mandrake Nightfiend has no option for upgrading his melee weapon. Nor does he have 2 wounds.

Drager wrote:
Both are Aeldari and so compete for the same Elites slot. I'm trying to work out if there is any reason to take Scorpions over Mandrakes.

Points Cost: Identical

Deployment: Identical

Movement:
Scorpion 7"
Mandrake 8"

Win: Mandrake

Shooting:
Scorpion BS3+12" Pistol 1 s4 AP0, -3 AP on a 6 to wound
Mandrake BS3+ 24" Assault 2 s4 AP -1, Additional Mortal Wound (so you still do the normal wound as well) on a 6 to wound.

Win: Mandrake

Assault:
Scorpion WS3+ 2 S4 AP0 D1 attacks, plus 1 chance to roll a 6 for a mortal wound
Mandrake WS3+ 3 S4 AP0 D1 attacks

Draw

Basic Defenses
Scorpion 3+ Armour
Mandrake 5+ Invuln

Draw

Special Rules

Scorpion: Battle focus (useless), Shadow Strike (Situational +1 to hit)
Mandrake: -1 to Hit for enemies targetting them, Power Form Pain (6+FnP, Reroll Charges, +1 to Hit, Immune to Morale)

Win: Mandrake

Am I missing something huge?

ummm.... scorps win the save and the combat according to what you wrote??

xmbk wrote:

Drager wrote:
So, sure, if you want to just go for a theme of using only one of the Aeldari sub factions, that's pretty minor though. I don't think I've played 'pure' one or the other since the moment I could mix them. Is there any gameplay rather than fluff benefit?

Ugh, I hope this doesn't become a standard mindset. Maybe I'm just old, but seeing DE and Craftworld side by side is just plain stupid. Might as well have Nids alongside Terminators. I can't understand why GW allowed this, would have been better just to allow a special Yncarne faction.

Why? The DE were latecomers to the game, but a sense of hostility between craftworlders and DE wasn't ever well established. The foundations of the eldar in 40K are puffed-up pirates, and outside farseer vision quests, the only time Craftworlders get anything done.
That they'd join in on raids to hone their combat skills, indulge their aspects need for violence, or just spank the monkeighs makes a fair amount of sense. Yriel's Eldritch Raiders have been a thing since the beginning.

 Galef wrote:

xmbk wrote:
]Ugh, I hope this doesn't become a standard mindset. Maybe I'm just old, but seeing DE and Craftworld side by side is just plain stupid.

I've been using Dark Eldar rules to represent a Corsair off-shoot of Saim Hann since 4th edition. Allies made this even easier to portray and I generally don't have access to Forge World models or rules (so using "true" corsairs is out for me)
Now that the all share the <Aeldari> keyword, I have way more versatility in executing my theme.
Some of us like to create intricate backstories for our armies that don't always fit "Just Craftworld" or "Just Dark Eldar". Some of us like the hobby freedom to cross mutlitple kits from different ranges and still use those well-thought out conversions in-game.

Just because you do not agree with the way some players enjoy this hobby, does not mean the support GW gives those players is "stupid"
Also, you really need to read more fluff. CWE and DE team up quite often, or at the very least a single Aeldari life can be long enough to traverse both lifestyles.

-

Is there any reason you can't use the models to represent different units without actually claiming two factions which hate each other are allying? They certainly do not team up quite often, that's a rationalization. Following your logic all the way out, you might as well get rid of key words and let anyone ally, so that players can create their own backstory. This edition has 3 ways to play, and 2 of them allow any armies to team up. Be nice if match play kept to traditional army lists.

I pair my Scorpions with Karandras and stick them in a Wave Serpent. Reliable delivery system gets them to their targets, then they assault with Karandras. They get their ~10 mortal wound tries, Karandras gets his 4 on 5+. On average, that's 3 mortal wounds, or 1.5 dead TH/SS terminators. Then, Karandras allows ALL of the Scorpions to roll extra attacks on 6's. If I wanted to be extra greedy, I might put a Farseer in with them for Doom/Fortune goodness.

Plus, if the enemy lives, they get their Pistols, then Mandiblasters again, before anyone swings next round. I love me some Striking Scorpions.

xmbk wrote:

 Galef wrote:

xmbk wrote:
]Ugh, I hope this doesn't become a standard mindset. Maybe I'm just old, but seeing DE and Craftworld side by side is just plain stupid.

I've been using Dark Eldar rules to represent a Corsair off-shoot of Saim Hann since 4th edition. Allies made this even easier to portray and I generally don't have access to Forge World models or rules (so using "true" corsairs is out for me)
Now that the all share the <Aeldari> keyword, I have way more versatility in executing my theme.
Some of us like to create intricate backstories for our armies that don't always fit "Just Craftworld" or "Just Dark Eldar". Some of us like the hobby freedom to cross mutlitple kits from different ranges and still use those well-thought out conversions in-game.

Just because you do not agree with the way some players enjoy this hobby, does not mean the support GW gives those players is "stupid"
Also, you really need to read more fluff. CWE and DE team up quite often, or at the very least a single Aeldari life can be long enough to traverse both lifestyles.

-

Is there any reason you can't use the models to represent different units without actually claiming two factions which hate each other are allying? They certainly do not team up quite often, that's a rationalization. Following your logic all the way out, you might as well get rid of key words and let anyone ally, so that players can create their own backstory. This edition has 3 ways to play, and 2 of them allow any armies to team up. Be nice if match play kept to traditional army lists.

My Aeldari army is going to be mainly Exodites. An Eldar culture somewhat removed from the politics of the Craftworld and Drukhari but still friendly with both, as well as regular hosts of various Harlequin troupes. Their culture is based on the Aeldari of old, inclusive of all aspects of that doomed race. They often trade with Craftworlds passing, and the Dark Kin keep them supplied with weapons and they learn tactics from both groups. My Incubi are actually the Fingers Of Morai-Heg: warriors whose devotion to their god has seen them sacrifice an arm for a wraithbone construct and honed their remaining natural arm to excellent levels of swordsmanship. I'm going to run their version of Guardians, the local militia as DE Kabalites, because it's easier for these villagers to trade with the Commorrites than rely on the occasional passing Craftworld. Still, there will be Farseers and Warlocks, and Aspect Warrior shrines across this world.

In a vacuum, they look a bit different than they do in the context of the buffs they can get from their armies. Striking Scorpions are terrifying if you take psyker support; Farseers, Warlocks, and the like cannot buff Mandrakes.

As for me, I have no use for Dark Eldar. They are thematically and narratively tiresome, and nothing they bring to the table is actually better than either what I could take on my own or could get from Harlequins.

Honestly, where do you go narratively with a society of psychopathic hedonists that literally have to torture people to live? It's so over the top, so cartoonishly evil that it seems unreal. That isn't going to be a sustainable society. What exactly stopped that society from collapsing into total anarchy and then dying out entirely within a year or two of its founding? Also, Dark Eldar janitors must have the worst jobs in the universe.

When just comparing the two units I think it's a clear victory for the Mandrakes. Better shooting that deals out mortal wounds (thats more likely to dish them out than Mandiblasters thanks to being Assault 2), -1 to hit from shooting and close combat attacks, 5++, 6+++, re-rolls charges from turn 2 and hits on a 2+ from turn 3, with more attacks than Scorpions thanks to +1 from the Gilmerblade (I don't know where Daedalus got 18.7 attacks for Scorpions from, a hat?). The only real advantages Scorpions have is the +1 to hit agains tunits in cover, a 3+ save and pistols.

The biggest difference between them is the Exarch and Nightfiend, the Nightfiend is just a guy with an extra attack but the Exarch gets an extra wound, extra attacks on 6's and weapon options. of course this is now offset by the signature Scopions Claw having a -1 to hit rule now applying which negates the extra attack on 6's.

Of course synergies changes things completely. Autarchs let them re-roll 1's to hit, Karandras lets all Striking Scorpions generate extra attacks on 6's to hit, Asurman can give them a 5++, and Farseers, Hemlock Wraithfighters and Warlocks have psychic support. The thing to remember with a lot of this support is that unless you specifically dedicate it to working with the Scorpions you'll be out of range for it more often than not, and thats a lot of points to dedicate to supporting what is effectivela a backfield harassment unit.

On the Mandreakes side of things they can gain +1T from Haemonculi and re-roll 1's to wound from Cronos, but again chances are you'll just be out of range for those AOE's.

 Imateria wrote:
On the Mandreakes side of things they can gain +1T from Haemonculi

No they can't. They're not <coven> units.

Well the Exarch has 3 weapon choices so if you're comparing them you can't just cherry pick the worst one.

Galef wrote:Scorpion also benefit from cover, whereas Mandrakes do not. Scorpions can also throw a Sunburst Grenade.

In cover Scorpions have a 2+ save. Against AP 0-2 they are better than Mandrakes. And that's most of the multishot weapons in the game. As said above, hardly a draw.

The grenade is not minor, either.

Wayniac wrote:Another bonus to Scorpions: Ynnari can't use Mandrakes.

That's huge. Ynnari have great rules, and taking Mandrakes automatically locks you out of them.
Plus Striking Scorpions synergize awesomely with Word of the Phoenix.

pm713 wrote:Well the Exarch has 3 weapon choices so if you're comparing them you can't just cherry pick the worst one.

Yep, both Biting Blade and Chainsabres are cheap and useful options.